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Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 12:17pm
erik's picture
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gun-free school does not allow guns in the school (but students could still try to sneak them in)
drug-free school does not allow drugs in the school (but students could still try to sneak them in)
peanut-free school does not allow peanuts in the school (but students could still try to sneak them in)
so sounds similar to me...

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 12:28pm
erik's picture
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and if there is so much added liability that classrooms can not be peanut-free, how is this possible in Canada?
maybe it is different here? maybe in the USA people sue each other more often?
it seems that peanut-free classrooms are quite common here and haven't heard any liability issues in Ontario schools
maybe Canadians are too submissive to sue everyone? I just wonder why it seems so easy to have peanut-free classrooms here in Ontario, while it seems most of the Americans posting here seem to think it won't work due to liability issues..
just some personal thoughts from me.. which may not make any sense at all since I just typed them out without thinking first as in a rush at this moment.. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 1:11pm
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Gail,
Your question on the previous page: "How would I have the school implement the PF class/table?" The same as they implement other rules and policies, or are you looking for a different type of an answer from me?
As for the question regarding a packaged food...I would consider them liable, but IMO, it's not the same comparasion and heres why (imo, of course):
The company is labeling their own product without the reliability of others. They manufacture, package and sell the item with the full intent of targeting people who will be consuming their peanut free food. The school is a building placing safeguards with the peanut/gun/drug free status. They can't guarentee that its 100% PF, gun free or drug free like the cookie company can b/c they are relying on outside contributors the cookie company is relying soley on itself.
We could also bring up Drug Free workplace. How many know of people who do drugs but work in a drug free workplace? I think that its more of the "zero-tolerence" Anna Marie mentioned...so again, do we ask for zero-tolerence classrooms where peanuts are concerned?
But this is why I brought this up, I don't expect the school to guarentee the room is 100% PF, no more than I expect it to be drug and weapon free...What I do expect with a PF status, is the same expectation I do with Guns and Drugs...to enforce the rule and handle it immediately.
Erik, you are correct in assuming that Americans are sue-happy. The liability and the political reasons are why American schools have heart failure at the mention of pnut free anything.

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 1:30pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cam's :
[b]Erik, you are correct in assuming that Americans are sue-happy. The liability and the political reasons are why American schools have heart failure at the mention of pnut free anything.
[/b]
Yes.. I am surprised at the fact that so many Americans think a peanut-free classroom is not a realistic goal. Here in Canada, we know "peanut-free classroom" does not mean it is 100% peanut-free. It means that everyone strives to make it as close to 100% peanut-free as they can, knowing there is no absolute guarantee.
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 06, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 2:29pm
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Gail W., sorry, I must have misinterpreted Cam's Mom's original post (and I think I pretty well said that when I made my original post in this thread). I didn't know that we were speaking about liability in this thread. I didn't know that that was the *issue* of this thread. I thought the *issue* of this thread was comparing how schools call themselves "gun free" "drug free" and why the he** they can't also call themselves "peanut free". I understand where liability would enter into schools calling themselves any of these things, but I didn't think it was part and parcel of me having to understand liability (and my son's school's liability should something happen to him at school PA related) to participate in the discussion.
And yes, after reading many posts after my last one, where I was confused about liability NOW, I still am. School board districts in the Province of Ontario give the PA child the *right* to a "peanut free" classroom. There are some words written in school board policy about how to deal with anaphylaxis in the schools and each school board within the province develops their own little interpretation (which is basically the same throughout the province) using the Anaphylaxis Handbook (I think it's the Anaphylaxis Handbook for Schools).
But there are no point by point written guidelines for a school to follow to ensure the safety of the PA child. There are no point by point written guidelines on how to run a peanut free classroom.
That was why I was so thrilled when I came across the allergy protocol of the other school in my town where the school actually had written guidelines on how to deal with a peanut free classroom (even if I did think it was for a *reduce the risk* school). I was thrilled. I had never seen a school with written guidelines.
The only written guidelines I have seen that are comprehensive and used in my son's school are the ones that Peanut Trace wrote up for her PA child and kindly amended to meet my requirements for Jesse at school as well. It is rare, although becoming more common, for Canadian parents to have written school plans for their PA children because when we first start out we think, hey, they have a policy re Anaphylaxis, we're cooking with gas, when, in fact, we're not.
That's why I raised the question a month or so ago asking people to provide me with copies of their school's written guidelines, particularly if they were a "peanut free" school. These things are rare.
What I have found in advocating for other PA parents in Ontario is when I call a school board and ask for their policy on Anaphylaxis, I receive basically the same policy that every PA parent in the province of Ontario receives (again referring to the Anaphylaxis Handbook). But again, that does not show the school point by point how to effectively have a peanut free classroom.
And having said all of that, perhaps it's just to-day, perhaps I need to contact my lawyer and sort it out with him rather than looking like a stupid idiot here, but all of a sudden, the question of liability is looming in my head.
I know that Jesse's written school plan is not considered a legally binding document. I know the steps that I would need to take to have it considered one only to also know that the school board's lawyers would NEVER sign it.
So here, in Ontario, does the Anaphylaxis Handbook period, with really no point by point guidelines on how to run either a peanut free classroom or peanut free school give the school enough information to be held liable should something happen to a PA child? That was my point.
I still think that my raising the topic of liability veered off from the original topic of drugs/guns/peanuts in the schools, but again, as I posted in my original post in this thread, I think I was kinda confused by it all anyway.
What I would like to do is contact my lawyer and also contact the superintendent of the school board to see what their answers are for my particular situation - i.e., my son has a "peanut free" classroom period. What happens if he has a reaction outside of the peanut free classroom (which he did)? Etc.
I enjoy Cam's Mom's threads and I wanted to participate in this one to-day and that's why I blundered in. Perhaps I shouldn't have.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 2:40pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook:
[b]School board districts in the Province of Ontario give the PA child the *right* to a "peanut free" classroom.
[/b]
Yes Cindy.. I think that is a good point.. In Ontario Canada a peanut-free classroom is a reality.. it is not something that is an impossible dream.
I guess it is a cultural difference between Ontario Canada and the United States maybe?
There are many peanut-free classrooms/schools in Ontario and I never heard of liability problems occurring.

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 2:45pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook:
[b]I enjoy Cam's Mom's threads and I wanted to participate in this one to-day and that's why I blundered in. Perhaps I shouldn't have.
[/b]
Why shouldn't you have ventured in? I think we all welcome everyone's points. I ventured in with my opinions and who knows if anyone will agree with them.. all our opinions are welcomed. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] It is good you added your points.
I also commented on the comparison of gun-free, drug-free, etc..
[i]
gun-free school does not allow guns in the school (but students could still try to sneak them in)
drug-free school does not allow drugs in the school (but students could still try to sneak them in)
peanut-free school does not allow peanuts in the school (but students could still try to sneak them in)
so sounds similar to me...
[/i]
night owl Erik [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 2:47pm
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Yes.. I am surprised at the fact that so many Americans think a peanut-free classroom is not a realistic goal. Here in Canada, we know "peanut-free classroom" does not mean it is 100% peanut-free. It means that everyone strives to make it as close to 100% peanut-free as they can, knowing there is no absolute guarantee.
[/b]
It must be late.
Eric,
Did you just state one thing and then immediately contradict that statement in the next breath, er, two sentences?
Maybe it's just me? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
If, indeed everyone is privy to the undertone of "Peanut Free" in Canada, as you so state, then how could the term "Peanut Free" possibly "send a stronger message"? If, indeed, everyone has the "insider perspective"?
If, indeed everyone knows "peanut-free classroom" does not mean it is 100% peanut-free," then why not use the term "reduce the risk"? What motivation is there in asking for "Peanut Free"? Is the term "Reduce the Risk" is educational in itself?
I have stated in earlier posts today:
[/b]"How "educating" can the words "peanut free" be? If indeed it is a "relative term"? If you take the definition literally, what method is in place to formally achieve this? Does "education" on a subject serve as a more useful tool to "encourage certain forms of behavior"
Still *personally* leaning towards an environment that extremely limits any and all "unnecessary food" from the classroom as well as indicating snack time and meal time to take place in an environment outside of the "classroom" since it indicates in itself how hard certain substances that promote life-threatening allergic reactions can be to remove from an environment or contain. (Again, based on the "institutional", classic, educational settings I am familiar with.)[/b]
If, indeed, a parent is trying to achieve a "risk reduced" classroom and not a 100% guarantee by instituting the label "Peanut Free Classroom" (you indicated:[i]"It means that everyone strives to make it as close to 100% peanut-free as they can, knowing there is no absolute guarantee.[/i]), why institute a label that proverbially speaks out of both ends?
Hypothetically speaking, if we were going to institute "Free" labels in any form, would a "Food Free Classroom" be more effective, reduce more risk, and theoretically easier to monitor than "Peanut Free Classroom"? (Considering your interpretation of "Free", as you indicate in the last two sentences, lol, not meaning a "an absolute guarantee")?
As long as we're travelling the high road here, and not just asking for "lip service".
I have an ethical caveat against asking of persons things I *personally* deem ineffective to the ultimate end of those requests. Even if it does make *me* feel validated.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. My words not intended as such in any manner or form. Merely seeking clarification of ideas put forth in discussion.

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 2:55pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]If, indeed everyone knows "peanut-free classroom" does not mean it is 100% peanut-free," then why not use the term "reduce the risk"? What motivation is there in asking for "Peanut Free"? Is the term "Reduce the Risk" is educational in itself? [/b]
Using the term [b]reduce the risk[/b] doesn't say what it means... by saying [b]peanut-free[/b] it will emphasize the goal which is to keep the classroom peanut free.
Reduce the risk could refer to anything... car accidents, etc.. by saying it is a peanut-free classroom we emphasize what the goal is.
And on Ontario we have many peanut-free classrooms. And many smoke-free restaurants (which people may occasionally sneak ina cigarette and smoke) etc....
Peanut-free is an adjective to describe [b]the goal[/b].. as [b]the goal is the be peanut-free[/b]
We could say the goal is to be reduce the risk but doesn't emphasize what we are trying to do.
Yes.. it is late.. time for my frozen waffles topped with merlot while I watch my Star Wars DVD to put me to sleep.. may the force be with you! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 2:59pm
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] What motivation is there in asking for "Peanut Free"?
[/b]
"Peanut-free" is the [b]goal[/b].
Our goal is a peanut-free classroom. But there are no guarantees. Just as a gun-free zone (ie: a courthouse) occasionally erupts in gunfire.
hmm getting late for night owl Erik... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

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