DEBATE thread - stay away if you don\'t want to read never-ending boring debates

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 1:58pm
erik's picture
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It seems that many people are frustrated that threads are constantly ending up turning into endless debates between various people. Pages of endless, boring debate will rapidly appear, which makes it hard to navigate through the thread and find useful information (note: I am one of the people who has been doing this).

California Mom had the idea of creating a [b]debate thread[/b], so here it is. Hopefully, everyone can post their long, endless, boring debates here so we can keep the other threads clean and easy to read (kind of like the rudeness thread idea).

I am sure most of you have [b]no interest[/b] in reading pages of debates between myself, Gail, Anna Marie, Momma Bear, etc.. so now you won't have to.. just stay away from this thread.

If anyone wants to debate me on any issues, please post here. I will refrain from long debates in the other threads in my effort to help to keep them clear and to the point.

Let the debating begin...

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 2:04pm
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I'll start.....................
Quote:
Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Do you recall reading what I posted about my younger son's accidental and completely unforseen "oral challenge", involving a product that contained gross amounts of peanut? Didn't even know it was in the house.
Never posted about it before, but recently, my older son (PA) had an accidental and completely unforseen major reaction to a "Manufactured in the same facility that processes peanuts". Didn't even know it was in the house.[/b]
hmmm.. upon reading this new bit of information I would think a classroom with a peanut ban might be a safer place for your child to be rather than home-schooling.
Why is it that you feel that schools with a peanut ban are unsafe ("an ambulance siren away") as you state that there is always a remote possibility that peanuts could still get into the classroom?
But your home schooling option seems just as dangerous as it appears peanut products can get into your home... I don't understand the logic...

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 2:24pm
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Bless you Erik for this new thread! I do plan to stay away, but just wanted to let you know how pleased I am. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Miriam

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 2:29pm
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Quote:Originally posted by California Mom:
[b]Bless you Erik for this new thread! I do plan to stay away, but just wanted to let you know how pleased I am. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Miriam[/b]
Hi Miriam,
Glad you like the thread... hmmm.. but you didn't debate anything with me?? haha

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 2:39pm
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Erik,
Thank you - I am happy to see this thread. It is a great idea.
I don't have anything to debate right now [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Sue in Sunny Arizona

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 12:39am
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Anonymous (not verified)

The only problem with a debate thread is that a debate actually starts as a conversation, which means it will start othe places and need to be moved here. But, lets give it a try.....
MommaBear, I thought we were debating peanut-free and whether or not it can be done. Now, I feel like I've been playing hockey with a football. Lord Stanley's Cup is still up for grabs.
My initial response was going to be that you put a lot more faith in nurses than I do. But, since that is only your [i]first[/i] requirement, I think I'll wait before responding. What else, [i]personally[/i] and [i]specifically[/i] do you require for your child.
And BTW, my school board couldn't afford nurses with those requirements for every school that has an anaphylactic student. So, do you think they should only provide it for the specifc parents who request it, or group all anaphylactic students in one school? Hmmm...who pays for the buses? And, is this only for anaphylactic students or for all food allergy students? What about bee stings....

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 12:46am
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Momma Bear: I still need some answers too......
Such as why are you so certain that peanut bans create dangerous classrooms which would result in "approaching ambulance sirens" as you said, when your home schooling option seems unsafe (two reactions from peanut products you did not even know were in your house).
As well, if you want policies, procedures, standards of care, etc for the schools, which policies, procedures, standards of care, etc do you use for your own home since you home school there.
You still haven't explained where your inner hostility towards [b]peanut-free waffles [/b]originates. I believe it is quite a healthy choice for breakfast and am surprised you would question this. Maybe some bad experience as a child (burned your fingers on a waffle iron?) Perhaps this could explain your repeated questioning of the term peanut-free?
How do you know if the merlot is safe? Does the merlot producer have a Policy, Protocol, or Procedure or Standard of Care by which to determine or produce their products? How about other food items you bring into your home?
Since you love debating, you must be glad that Anna Marie and I are here to continue the debate. You can pour yourself a [b]peanut-free[/b] merlot and start typing.... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 12:48am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]The only problem with a debate thread is that a debate actually starts as a conversation, which means it will start othe places and need to be moved here. [/b]
Hi Anna Marie,
You can still debate issues in other threads. The purpose of this thread is for those long never-ending debates that go on and on and bore everyone else to death except for the debate participants.
Some issues such as "peanut-free" take pages and pages and the debate never ends so this is a good place to post as much as you want without others being irritated. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 12:59am
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Hi Erik,
Thanks for the offer but the only debate I have going on today is w/myself!
I do also want to thank you for being so understanding w/me in Cindy's topic. I was very worried that I would offend you & all males...plop, plop, fizz, fizz...oh, what a relief it is!
~Lisa

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 1:03am
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Hi Lisa,
You don't need to worry... I don't get offended easily at all (life is too short to be offended at things anyway) and what you wrote was not offensive. I truly believe many male school principals don't take mother's PA concerns seriously (they think the PA Mom is just paranoid) - I believe you made a very valid point. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Oh well, maybe you'll have a debate with Momma Bear, Anna Marie, or someone at a later date and we'll see you here again [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 1:56am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]I truly believe many male school principals don't take mother's PA concerns seriously (they think the PA Mom is just paranoid)...[/b]
I must have missed this post between you two, erik, because my experience is just the opposite.
At my son's school last year (we home school now), the female principal there was nothing short of [i]evil[/i] to me. I wrote letters to the school months before it started explaining my sons problems (Asperger's, CAPD, PA, asthma) and what accommodations needed to be implemented (he had an existing IEP from early intervention and was in SLP, so we didn't have to set one up) and that further testing would be in order.
The CAPD is a hearing dysfunction and effects his vestibular processing capabilities. If he goes to lunch in the cafeteria or is overwhelmed with sound or hears a fire alarm, he will shut down completely for hours after that and stim (self stimulate ~ rock, chew on things, be incapable of functioning).
When I found out a couple weeks into school that my son was eating in the cafeteria AND not eating at the allergen free/PN free table (my step-son narked on the school! YAY for siblings!), I went down to the school to talk with the Principal. I had never met her before, although I had met several times with the vice-principal (a man) on the IEP paperwork and the continued testing I requested.
She looked briefly at my file, then said, "Are you sure there's even anything wrong with your son? Are you sure he's just not being neglected at home?" My jaw dropped! I stood there processing what she had just said to me and shook with anger. She had basically told me, without ever having met me, without ever having read ONE of my letters to the school, that there was nothing wrong with my son and it was all in my imagination and that I had to be neglecting him at home?? OMG!
I turned flush red and just shook with a look of complete shock on my face until I finally burst out, "HOW DARE YOU! How dare you accuse me of neglecting my son without even meeting him, without even reading the file!! Without so much as even LOOKING at the medical support, recommendations and information provided by many reputable doctors!! HOW DARE YOU!" I then slammed some papers I had been given down in front of her and demanded she look at the file.
Luckily, in walks the special education teacher who mediates and successfully gets my child OUT of the cafeteria entirely (eating lunch with her.) I told the SE teacher that next time I was required to speak to that principal, she would be hard pressed to keep me from decking her.
Obviously, I never did speak to her again and she finally left the school this year, but so did I. We home school, but not because of PA ~ entirely. Sure, it plays a part, but not the determining part.
I also think that MommaBear didn't decide to home school EXCLUSIVELY because of PA either. I think for her it was more of a determining factor than it was for me, but we both have Aspie kids.
~Melanie
P.S. The point to all this being: The vice-principal, a [b]GUY[/b] had an enormous amount of compassion for my son and his situation all around. He was sensitive to the PA, the AS, the CAPD and wanted very much for him to get all the services he needed. He LIKED my son. And I like him. It was the FEMALE principal who was insensitive, judgemental, and downright cruel.
[This message has been edited by MeCash (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 1:58am
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WHOOOOOOOOOOOA.
just found the debate thread. LOL.
More seriously, though...........
it appears as if some do view it as a "game".
*Personally* not wondering anymore why some schools may view it as such, if some in the same community demonstrate the same.
[i]Sigh.[/i]
Eric, although I am a nurse...... I am also a mother. I also function as my son's "teacher" (homeschooling), and the Principal's wife. LOL.
You may begin........oh, never mind.
With regards to my son's *personal* homeschooling. The Principal (and "athletic director")(hubby) and I (nurse, mom, wife, "teacher")are in the process of updating our Policy, Procedure, Protocol, etc........... in light of recent events. Even though they did not occur during school hours. LOL?
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 2:03am
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Quote:Originally posted by MeCash:
[b] I must have missed this post between you two, erik, because my experience is just the opposite.
At my son's school last year (we home school now), the female principal there was nothing short of [i]evil[/i] to me. I wrote letters to the school months before it started explaining my sons problems (Asperger's, CAPD, PA, asthma) and what accommodations needed to be implemented (he had an existing IEP from early intervention and was in SLP, so we didn't have to set one up) and that further testing would be in order.
The CAPD is a hearing dysfunction and effects his vestibular processing capabilities. If he goes to lunch in the cafeteria or is overwhelmed with sound or hears a fire alarm, he will shut down completely for hours after that and stim (self stimulate ~ rock, chew on things, be incapable of functioning).
When I found out a couple weeks into school that my son was eating in the cafeteria AND not eating at the allergen free/PN free table (my step-son narked on the school! YAY for siblings!), I went down to the school to talk with the Principal. I had never met her before, although I had met several times with the vice-principal (a man) on the IEP paperwork and the continued testing I requested.
She looked briefly at my file, then said, "Are you sure there's even anything wrong with your son? Are you sure he's just not being neglected at home?" My jaw dropped! I stood there processing what she had just said to me and shook with anger. She had basically told me, without ever having met me, without ever having read ONE of my letters to the school, that there was nothing wrong with my son and it was all in my imagination and that I had to be neglecting him at home?? OMG!
I turned flush red and just shook with a look of complete shock on my face until I finally burst out, "HOW DARE YOU! How dare you accuse me of neglecting my son without even meeting him, without even reading the file!! Without so much as even LOOKING at the medical support, recommendations and information provided by many reputable doctors!! HOW DARE YOU!" I then slammed some papers I had been given down in front of her and demanded she look at the file.
Luckily, in walks the special education teacher who mediates and successfully gets my child OUT of the cafeteria entirely (eating lunch with her.) I told the SE teacher that next time I was required to speak to that principal, she would be hard pressed to keep me from decking her.
Obviously, I never did speak to her again and she finally left the school this year, but so did I. We home school, but not because of PA ~ entirely. Sure, it plays a part, but not the determining part.
I also think that MommaBear didn't decide to home school EXCLUSIVELY because of PA either. I think for her it was more of a determining factor than it was for me, but we both have Aspie kids.
~Melanie
P.S. The point to all this being: The vice-principal, a [b]GUY[/b] had an enormous amount of compassion for my son and his situation all around. He was sensitive to the PA, the AS, the CAPD and wanted very much for him to get all the services he needed. He LIKED my son. And I like him. It was the FEMALE principal who was insensitive, judgemental, and downright cruel.
[This message has been edited by MeCash (edited May 20, 2003).][/b]
[i]Deja Vu[/i]
Quoting your whole post, in part, for impact in relation to my relatively small reply.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
(Hugs)

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 2:12am
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Quote:Originally posted by MeCash:
[b] At my son's school last year (we home school now), the female principal there was nothing short of [i]evil[/i] to me[/b]
Hi Melanie,
Yes... I believe this to be true also. In general, I think there are more male school principals than there are female school principals (although I assume this is changing each year) so maybe that is why there are more bad experiences with men as they are more common in that job.
As I wrote in my original reply, there are also some women I am sure would be bad too:
Quote:originally posted by Erik
[b]Hi Lisa,
Don't worry.. I did not take offense at all. I think it is true that a lot of male school principals probably do think that the mothers are just paranoid (some female principals probably feel this way too). [/b]
It is a constant struggle to educate the non-PA world about our PA world.

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 2:16am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]With regards to my son's *personal* homeschooling. The Principal (and "athletic director")(hubby) and I (nurse, mom, wife, "teacher")are in the process of updating our Policy, Procedure, Protocol, etc........... in light of recent events. Even though they did not occur during school hours. LOL?[/b]
After hours? hmmm...
Actually, you are updating your policies, procedures, etc? Interesting, as when Anna Marie mentioned that a peanut ban needs to be constantly upgraded and improved, you seemed to think junking it is a better idea rather than updating it to fix any problems that may have occurred..
So are you now saying Anna Marie's idea of updating the policies/procedures actually is valid??? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] So the "time to junk it" idea flew out the window? interesting.............. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 2:59am
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I don't have time these days to stick and follow my end if I jump into a debate. They are very time consuming. I do enjoy a great debate.
However, this should make for some fun occasional reading!
Erik, I am surprised at your change in demeanor, in putting on your debating hat! Not bad surpirsed, and I do not find you offensive. You are just such a peace keeper it is a new side of you we are seeing. Have Fun!
becca

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 3:17am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
So are you now saying Anna Marie's idea of updating the policies/procedures actually is valid??? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] So the "time to junk it" idea flew out the window? interesting.............. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b]
Aaaahhh shucks [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img]
Thanks Eric, I guess I should stop picking on you?
And Becca, you are welcome to post as little or as much as you want. Sometimes someone who pops in with just one post makes very important points and they are always welcome.
MommaBear, please don't accuse me of thinking dealing with a child's pa is a game. I have said [i]many[/i] times that I am extremely thankful it's me with food allergies and not my child, and that opinion has not and will never change.
Neither do I feel education is a game. Just the debate.
[This message has been edited by AnnaMarie (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 3:35am
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I did not originally bring up the term "game".
I feel educating is inherently linked to "debate" (call it that, if you will). As it allows for a Critical Analysis of issues at hand.
Would you agree?

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 3:51am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

I would agree that a debate [b]can[/b] be educational.
Debate is not always necessary to educate.
Just wanted to clarify what I was considering a "game", and it is [b]not[/b] a child's life. Do you understand that MommaBear???

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 3:53am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] After hours? hmmm...
Actually, you are updating your policies, procedures, etc? Interesting, as when Anna Marie mentioned that a peanut ban needs to be constantly upgraded and improved, you seemed to think junking it is a better idea rather than updating it to fix any problems that may have occurred..
So are you now saying Anna Marie's idea of updating the policies/procedures actually is valid??? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] So the "time to junk it" idea flew out the window? interesting.............. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 20, 2003).][/b]
#1. Would you have to have a realistically achievable, enforceable, defineable, measureable Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and/or Standard of Care in order to "update" it? LOLOLOLOLOL.
Maybe you missed this in the "Rudeness" thread, as I didn't see a reply:
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by erik:
Yes, all of the above manufacturers do have a Policy, Protocol, or Procedure which determines why they label the products as "peanut-free", which is that they make their products in a peanut-free environment from peanut-free ingredients.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MommaBear:
[i]Fantastic[/i] I would be interested in the details.
Could that possibly mean that there is indeed a realistic way to meet the goal in those particular situations?
A defineable,
measurable,
realistically achievable,
enforceable
way?
Guess you may get my point, then? It's really not the label, but where one places it and under what circumstances.
Disclaimer: the following is a Purely Hypothetical Situation:>>>>>
[b]How would you feel about a healthcare institution that decided to state/label all surgical procedures complication-free, simply because that was the "goal"? Would you consider this "ethical"?[/b]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form."
You see, eric, I am not against the term "Peanut Free/Ban" in itself. (Never burnt my hand on a waffle iron either)
*Personally*, I believe in asking for accomodations that not only help protect my child, but also do not ask others to compromise their integrity. It's an ethical thing. As well as a "literal thing". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Maybe I can identify more easily with this situation on a [i]professional[/i] level. A "giving as good as we get" issue?
I also *personally* view asking for accomodations that put the goal ahead of any concrete plan to achieve that goal [i]futile[/i] and ineffective.
Show me a Policy, Protocol, Procedure, and/or Standard of Care that puts forth a plan in realistic, attainable, enforceable terms to achieve such a goal: "Peanut Free/Ban" and I just may be the first in line asking for it. (As I *personally* have been unable to do the same)
Is there a way I can be clearer?
ps..... Still in awe of Gail. The forest view is lovely.
Disclaimer, I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:03am
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Is this really a debate thread? Debates are great for politicians but rate very poorly with regard to actual problem-solving.
Check out the difference between debate and dialogue at this link [url="http://clinton3.nara.gov/Initiatives/OneAmerica/a2.html"]http://clinton3.nara.gov/Initiatives/OneAmerica/a2.html[/url] and hopefully we can can the debate and create the dialogue.
Wishful thinking?

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:12am
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(Quietly noting some flattering similarities between Carolyn and Gail.)

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:13am
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[b] Edited to add: when I wrote this I had not yet read the two preceding posts by Cayley's Mom and Momma Bear. That's pretty weird... We must all have been on the same wavelength.... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] [/b]
I'm popping back in. Hope that's okay... (to pop in and out) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
I felt I made my points in the other thread(s) before getting side-tracked in other things like ... um ... well... [i]life, my kids [/i], which took me away from the computer. Sometimes I can't find all the time necessary to fully participate, and my brain just hurts after a while and I need a coffee break. I'm not hoping for any crowns, I just think there are some good concepts here and I like thinking about them. And I am open to changing my opinions...
I wish Cam's Mom would join in...
I think MommaBear has an interesting perspective (nursing) and I value it very much. I'm sorry that ...I really don't quite know how to say this... that her points aren't ... heard/understood (I'm trying hard not to ruffle anyone here, please don't anyone take offense).
I very much value having a school nurse (full time RN). And, as I posted before, it was a requirement when we "shopped" for a school to move to. I think our RN is the reason that we have written procedures (the PPP and SOC that MommaBear speaks of often), and why it was "bumped up" to the district level. My husband and I were very persistent which also helped, but having a full-time RN raises the bar to what can be expected (the SOC issue)and achieved (the PPP issue).
I think MommaBear is in a unique situation (being an RN) to share why having a school nurse is so important in her opinion. I think others here could truly benefit from her knowledge.
MommaBear, would you be happy with the situation we have at our school? That is,
a full-time RN, a "care plan" in the form of an IHP, a "no food" policy for the primary classroom, an earnest endeavor to remove all nuts from the school lunch program, documented staff training by RN, epi-pen (unlocked) in classrooms, and emergency procedures? (There are other things, too, but these are the main ones...)
Can you explain why or why not?
Gail
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:20am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Debates can be enjoyable, and as MB and I (seem) to agree, they can also be educational.
And MommaBear, I really would like to know what you require for your child in a school setting. Personally and specifically.
I'm not sure if I have offended you. Kind of sounds like I might have, but, honestly I'm not trying to. We were bouncing things back and forth in a thread about peanut/gun free. It sounded [i]to me[/i] like you thought banning peanuts wasn't possible. When I asked what you personally and specifically required you gave me qualifications for a nurse. Hockey with a football. I think this time you were the one speaking in broader terms, and assuming I was following you.
So, now, other than a [i]very[/i] highly qualified nurse, what other requirements for your child? (Multiple links not required and sometimes ignored - time restraints [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img]).
BTW, my comment about you having more faith in nurses than me was because I misunderstood and thought that was the [b]only[/b] requirement you had.

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:27am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[BI think MommaBear has an interesting perspective (nursing) and I value it very much. I'm sorry that ...I really don't quite know how to say this... that her points aren't ... heard/understood (I'm trying hard not to ruffle anyone here, please don't anyone take offense).
[/B]
Gail, I agree with the first sentence.
If it's my feathers you don't want to ruffle, well, ruffle away. I have definitely misunderstood some of her postings (and not for the first time either).

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:35am
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Quote:originally posted by Momma Bear
[b]#1. Would you have to have a realistically achievable, enforceable, defineable, measureable Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and/or Standard of Care in order to "update" it? LOLOLOLOLOL.[/b]
Actually, I believe you do need this. But Rome wasn't built in a day, as Julius Caesar often stated while eating his merlot topped peanut-free waffles for breakfast. Maybe the peanut-ban can't be perfect right away. As Cayley's Mom had mentioned, people before her at her school did the initial work, and by the time she arrived all that was required was minor fine-tuning. I guess the point of this [i]dialogue[/i] (thanks for that link Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] ) is to try to determine which ways we can keep children safe in schools. In some cases peanut bans may be the way to go - in other cases, maybe other procedures are the way to go. This dialogue can help us to determine some solutions.
Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]Yes, all of the above manufacturers do have a Policy, Protocol, or Procedure which determines why they label the products as "peanut-free", which is that they make their products in a peanut-free environment from peanut-free ingredients.[/b]
Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Fantastic I would be interested in the details.[/b]
Unfortunately I do not have the details. I do know that they emphasize their peanut safety (ie: that they use peanut free facilities and their suppliers are peanut-free) but I do not know the details. I guess I just trust them, and I think most other Canadians feel the same way as we are familiar with these companies (Nestle, Chapmans, etc).
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Guess you may get my point, then? It's really not the label, but where one places it and under what circumstances.[/b]
Let's pop open the merlot! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Yes, I have always agreed with you on that point. A label means nothing unless there are policies and procedures in place. Any classroom can say they are peanut free - but is there any substance behind the statement? That is the question...
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]How would you feel about a healthcare institution that decided to state/label all surgical procedures complication-free, simply because that was the "goal"? Would you consider this "ethical"?[/b]
Yes, this is a good point. I know they don't do this, as when I had my wisdom teeth out I was told there was a extremely remote chance of nerve jaw damage during the procedure. There are no guarantees in life. Like I said, when the light turns green, we do not blindly cross without looking both ways. Maybe that is why we should just call it something like a "peanut restricted classroom" to show that they are restricted but there is no 100% guarantee that the classroom is 100% peanut-free at all times.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b](Never burnt my hand on a waffle iron either)[/b]
That's great to hear! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] hmmm.. still not sure why you question Dempster's peanut-free waffles as a breakfast choice? Inquiring minds want to know. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] Are you a major shareholder in EGGO perhaps??? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Show me a Policy, Protocol, Procedure, and/or Standard of Care that puts forth a plan in realistic, attainable, enforceable terms to achieve such a goal: "Peanut Free/Ban" and I just may be the first in line asking for it. (As I *personally* have been unable to do the same)[/b]
OK.. so that's the challenge.
Does anyone here have a plan for their child's school that may meet Momma Bear's standards? Gail? Cayley's Mom? Anna Marie? That is the question.. (well, besides the more well known [i]to be or not to be..... [/i] question) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:38am
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No, AnnaMarie, I wasn't thinking of you or anyone in particular. Really. I just don't want to ruffle... feeling a little ruffle-shy since Cindy left. Just my own personal deal...
I think MommaBear might be in a bind, sort of, being that she has made it known that she is an RN and so what she says could be taken as professional in some way. Is that true, MommaBear? I wonder if she is trying to point us to her opinions in less direct ways that are "safe" (in links, for example).

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:46am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]I'm popping back in. Hope that's okay... (to pop in and out) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I wish Cam's Mom would join in...[/b]
As the creator of this thread, I feel I can state [b]of course it is ok!!![/b]. Many of us have time restraints and can't be here everyday.. just pop in when you have time [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Cam's Mom is just busy - I am sure she'll be back.
Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]I think MommaBear has an interesting perspective (nursing) and I value it very much. I'm sorry that ...I really don't quite know how to say this... that her points aren't ... heard/understood (I'm trying hard not to ruffle anyone here, please don't anyone take offense). [/b]
Of course I won't take offense. As I have told many people who were afraid they offended me, I don't offend easily. Anne Marie can pick on me every day, and I'll just laugh (I have to be nice to her, as she is the one who is going to bake me that chocolate cake with a file in it). Actually, my points may not always be well understood either, as half the time I don't know what I am writing about either.
Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]I think MommaBear is in a unique situation (being an RN) to share why having a school nurse is so important in her opinion. I think others here could truly benefit from her knowledge. [/b]
Yes... I agree a school nurse would be invaluable for us. But here in Ontario, the government will not fund school nurses since they are spending all their ("our") money buying overpriced electricity from Quebec and New York. So any solution for ONtario will have to be without full time school nurses in all our schools, but at least we can tap Momma Bear's wisdom and knowledge of nursing in order to assist with this dialogue - I know I know nothing about nursing except for what I learned watching General Hospital back in the 1980s. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]MommaBear, would you be happy with the situation we have at our school? That is,
a full-time RN, a "care plan" in the form of an IHP, a "no food" policy for the primary classroom, an earnest endeavor to remove all nuts from the school lunch program, documented staff training by RN, epi-pen (unlocked) in classrooms, and emergency procedures? (There are other things, too, but these are the main ones...)
[/b]
Even though I would prefer peanuts to be restricted, I would be happy with Gail's plan as it seems well thought out and quite safe for the PA kids. It will be interesting to read Momma Bear's comments [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:51am
MommaBear's picture
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I really, really, really, really, want to answer some questions directed at me NOW.
But,
my children are literally clawing at me to take them to a local chain toy store. ACK.
To greatly reduce the risk of bodily injury and stay in my hubby's good graces, I will try to address them later tonight?
Again, I'm starting to really like this thread.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 4:59am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] MommaBear, you can come and go as time permits as well. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 5:00am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
To greatly [b]reduce the risk[/b] of bodily injury and stay in my hubby's good graces, I will try to address them later tonight?
Again, I'm starting to really like this thread. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img][/b]
Yes, that's what this thread's all about - [b]reduce the risk[/b] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] I am glad you like this thread. It seems to be quite popular on its first day. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 5:06am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]Really. I just don't want to ruffle... feeling a little ruffle-shy since Cindy left. Just my own personal deal...[/b]
I don't think you'll ruffle any of us here Gail, so nothing to worry about. Those who are easily offended would most likely stay away from debate/dialogue threads.
Quote:Originally posted by becca:
[b]Erik, I am surprised at your change in demeanor, in putting on your debating hat! Not bad surpirsed, and I do not find you offensive. You are just such a peace keeper it is a new side of you we are seeing.[/b]
Hi Becca,
Yes, I may be a peace keeper, but I also have strong opinions and will defend them... hehe I will be here to defend my peanut-free products (Canadian Kit Kat, Dempster's waffles, etc..) haha [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 5:10am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Check out the difference between debate and dialogue at this link [url="http://clinton3.nara.gov/Initiatives/OneAmerica/a2.html"]http://clinton3.nara.gov/Initiatives/OneAmerica/a2.html[/url] and hopefully we can can the debate and create the dialogue.
Wishful thinking?[/b]
Hi Carolyn,
Thanks for your link - it is very helpful to all of us. I think with Momma Bear, Gail, Anna Marie, Cam's Mom, and myself and whoever else wants to join) we should actually be able to have a good dialogue - let's see what happens, but I think this will work. Of course, you are the master at this (as we saw in the War Thread) so whatever you say will carry the day.. hehe [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Looking forward to your opinions as well [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[b]Live long and prosper[/b] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 7:24am
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Time out for clarifications please!
Hi Melanie,
You were absolutely right in mentioning that you had missed out on the discussion between Erik & myself because what you posted is a wayward turn from what we were discussing. I mentioned male principals only because they dominate the field & it fit the subject matter. The problem you incurred had nothing to do w/gender, it had to do w/the fact that that particular principal was an irrational, hostile & offensive person to say the least.
Hi Anna Marie,
You're off the hook, I originally used the term "game".
Hi MB,
Before I posted "to you specifically" I spoke w/my sister & a dear friend who are both Special Education Teachers for the autistic. "I obviously didn't get" what they were trying to tell me & did a lousy job of using an analogy to accommodate your autism. I truly am sorry & I beg your forgiveness!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To all parents w/an autistic child, I think homeschooling or a specialized school are very good choices if PA is treated secondary to autism. This is only a gut reaction on my part because I have seen the other side of what can happen to an autistic child in the public school system if they are not treated properly. My older brother's life was a living hell due to abusive teachers. Due to that trauma & that of my Mother's constant battles w/the school it still affects him to this day at the age of 48 because he also has schizophrenia.
He is a semi-recluse, but is a very happy & content one living on a farm that our family purchased for him to grow all the fruits & vegetables he wants. My sister is trying to find someone to negotiate the sales of his produce because too much contact w/people drives him to get intoxicated & consequently that also attracts people to abuse him.
My point is that my brother probably would have done better had there been an alternative to public school. My Mother simply could not have home schooled him due to her own lack of education. As for his schizophrenia, it was only "suggested" that the years of abuse by the school system triggered it at an early age (16). Please just try to be content w/homeschooling or look for a different or an alternative school. This is not a criticism or as a way to tell anyone what to do; it comes from my heart w/the feeling that everyone should do their best to put aside things that don't work & live happily!
~Take care.
Sorry for the interruption Erik. Please everyone continue!
[This message has been edited by LisaMcDowell (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 7:51am
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Quote:Originally posted by LisaMcDowell:
[b]Time out for clarifications please!
............................
Sorry for the interruption Erik, please continue![/b]
Hi Lisa,
The interruption is fine...you are welcome to post in this thread anytime... in a debate/dialogue thread we need time to come up for air anyway, and I am sure yours won't be the first clarification to appear here - people can easily misinterpret each other in debates so I am sure we'll see many more clarifications to come.
Actually, you don't even have to debate in order to post here as I think all posts contribute to the discussion... (or should we debate that?) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[edited to fix typos so Nick will be happy] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 20, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 11:35am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b][b]
MommaBear, would you be happy with the situation we have at our school? That is,
a full-time RN, a "care plan" in the form of an IHP, a "no food" policy for the primary classroom, an earnest endeavor to remove all nuts from the school lunch program, documented staff training by RN, epi-pen (unlocked) in classrooms, and emergency procedures? (There are other things, too, but these are the main ones...)
[/b]
[b]Personally[/b], and with respect to my own [b]individual and unique[/b] situation (and whom in my own family that entails)and not in any manner or form offering advice or recommendations for anyone else.............:
Providing there are some PPP and SOC [i]where applicable[/i] (Something tells me you may be way ahead of me here) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img], by which to achieve and promote goals.
[i]I am drooling over the thought[/i].
Also:
[b]Personally[/b], and with respect to my own [b]individual and unique[/b] situation (and whom in my own family that entails)and not in any manner or form offering advice or recommendations for anyone else.............:
I would [i]require[/i] a [i]"504"[/i] (in addition to his IEP, considering the particular "motivation" it ("504") holds. Or at least in my limited understanding.
Also:
[b]Personally[/b], and with respect to my own [b]individual and unique[/b] situation (and whom in my own family that entails)and not in any manner or form offering advice or recommendations for anyone else...........
Still pondering "close proximity" in light of several recent laws.
[i]dabbing the corner of my mouth still...[/i]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 11:51am
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MommaBear, is that a qualified "yes"? If my situation were written up in the form of a 504, you would be satisfied?
(Just clarifying.)
Gail
BTW, as you know, I would also prefer the 504 because of the "motivation". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 2:55pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]MommaBear, is that a qualified "yes"? If my situation were written up in the form of a 504, you would be satisfied?
[/b]
Personally, and with respect to my own individual and unique situation (and whom in my own family that entails)and not in any manner or form offering advice or recommendations for anyone else.............:
Would it happen to include a "Epinephrine Competency Skill Check List" or the like?(page 52 of "Managing Life Threatening Food Allergies in Schools"** documentation form?) And any similiar "addendums" by which to make PPP and SOC (where applicable) [i]defineable, measurable, enforceable, and realistically achievable?[/i]
Would it also clearly delineate and define roles as necessary? (Possibly detailing a "Chain of Command" for concerns and questions?)
Would it [i]be in accordance with any applicable laws and statutes, and would actions outlined therein be in compliance to any standards of governing bodies over licenses (or lack thereof) involved in its creation and upkeep?[/i]
Even a letter addressed to appropriate persons in the school community, from the school, with input from the guardians of the food-allergic child, endorsed by appropriate, authorized school personnel, with a method for ensuring and documenting its receipt and comprehension of the contents therein?
Would this letter be [i]individualized for the student [/i], but still retain [b]critical elements[/b] by which to address a [i]life-threatening food allergy[/i], and any PPP and/or SOC instituted by the school pertaining to reducing the risk of exposure to the particular substance through the school and their agent's endevors as well as through the cooperation of the school community's endevors towards reduction overall of the substance in the school environment (and it's extensions) where realistically achievable, as well as explaining certain realistically achievable and reasonable expectations to offer a first line defense against extremely untoward, possibly deadly exposure to the substance ie: reduction of risk =[i]benefit[/i] to the particular student at risk, and potential for great bodily harm or death ie:[i]risk[/i]that may arise via exposure to the substance, possibly through apathy, lack of critical key information or understanding, apathy, and/or non-compliance, or even a lack of channels (quite possibly perpetuating poor outcomes) by which to address questions or concerns? . (applicable to all school community?)
(Trying not to be redundant, although hubby feels [i]redundancy[/i] is sometime the key to safety.)
**
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000907.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000907.html[/url]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely drooling excessively.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 10:41pm
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Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Would it happen to include a "Epinephrine Competency Skill Check List" or the like?(page 52 of "Managing Life Threatening Food Allergies in Schools"** documentation form?) And any similiar "addendums" by which to make PPP and SOC (where applicable) [i]defineable, measurable, enforceable, and realistically achievable?[/i] [/b]
Yes, our school nurse developed annual training documentation for all staff. Staff meet individually w/ the nurse, watch the Dey slide show (in her office), practice epi-pen training, review Mariah's Action Plan, and disucuss any questions. Then the nurse and staff member sign the "check list".
[b] "Would it also clearly delineate and define roles as necessary? (Possibly detailing a 'Chain of Command' for concerns and questions?)" [/b]
Staff roles are clearly delineated. An example is the "911 procedures" that clearly states a "who does what". The IHP states who is responsible for duties pertaining to specific safeguards. The school states in the IHP that they will provide "necessary staff" to oversee the lunch monitoring and hand washing that occurs in the cafeteria.
[b] "Would it [i]be in accordance with any applicable laws and statutes, and would actions outlined therein be in compliance to any standards of governing bodies over licenses (or lack thereof) involved in its creation and upkeep?" [/i][/b]
Yes, an example of this is that Missouri law does not allow for students to carry their epi-pen (tho asthma inhalers are okay). When Mariah has an after-school playdate, she must drop off her med kit at the nurse's office and pick it up after school.
[b] "Even a letter addressed to appropriate persons in the school community, from the school, with input from the guardians of the food-allergic child, endorsed by appropriate, authorized school personnel, with a method for ensuring and documenting its receipt and comprehension of the contents therein?" [/b]
No, I don't think we meet this criteria. A letter is sent to parents (from the principal, nurse, and school counselor) by US mail. The letter explains the basics of PA ("life threatening" terms) and states that the school will comply with district practices (e.g. naming the "no food in the classroom" practice and others). It asks parents to voluntarily refrain from sending in products containing nuts. We had zero input in the letter because it is from the school (not us), but really like it.
At the fall "Meet Your Teacher Night" it is up to the discression of the teacher whether or not she wants to address it further. Questions from parents are addressed if they come up. (It is the teacher's responsibility to maintain the "no food" status of the classroom.)
[b] "Would this letter be [i]individualized for the student [/i], but still retain critical elements by which to address a [i]life-threatening food allergy[/i], and any PPP and/or SOC instituted by the school pertaining to reducing the risk of exposure to the particular substance through the school and their agent's endevors as well as through the cooperation of the school community's endevors towards reduction overall of the substance in the school environment (and it's extensions) where realistically achievable, as well as explaining certain realistically achievable and reasonable expectations to offer a first line defense against extremely untoward, possibly deadly exposure to the substance ie: reduction of risk =[i]benefit[/i] to the particular student at risk, and potential for great bodily harm or death ie:[i]risk[/i]that may arise via exposure to the substance, possibly through apathy, lack of critical key information or understanding, apathy, and/or non-compliance, or even a lack of channels (quite possibly perpetuating poor outcomes) by which to address questions or concerns? . (applicable to all school community?)" [/b]
Yes and No. It is not individualized for Mariah specifically. There are now other PA students (other grade levels) and the same letter (to parents) is used for their grade-level as well. It states the school district's protocal on PA and emphasizes the need for cooperation f rom "the community".
For staff, I don't believe there is any letter. (I am not privy to internal correspondance, tho.) However, the school has arranged staff training thru the Asthma & Allergy Foundation~ an allergist came to the school to conduct an all-staff seminar on FA. And the nurse conducts annual training that she documents.
Our IHP is signed by 4 school staff (the school pricipal, the school nurse, the school counselor, the teacher) and us (parents). It is reviewed at least twice a year (August before the start of school ) and again in February. It is revised, resigned and reissued to staff at that time. The IHP is 13 pages and addressed how specific safeguards will be implemented. (No where in the document are the words "peanut free" used.)
Now, I agree that the 504 would be a more powerful route and I always encourage any newcomers to pursue the 504 instead of the IHP. There have been a couple times that this has come into play where the school nurse erred on the "side of caution" which resulted in (what we believe to be) some discrimination. But those 2 cases (e.g. sitting on the bus alone) were addressed to our satisfaction.
[b]MommaBear, would these conditions be acceptable to you (if in the form of the 504)? [/b]
Gail
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 21, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/20/2003 - 11:31pm
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I really, really, really, really, want to answer some questions directed at me NOW.
But,
my children are literally clawing at me to fix them breakfast. As is hubby. Breakfast for children may not be as involved as breakfast for hubby.
(The glow of new toys purchased yesterday has since worn off------either that or the toys have since met unfortunate ends.)
[i]Sigh[/i]
To greatly reduce the risk of bodily injury and stay in my hubby's good graces, I will try to address them later tonight?
[b]And, most likely Gail, I will wrap up my reply........... You might be pleasantly surprised.[/b]
Thank you for your active participation in a subject dear to heart,
[i]You are a gem and a treasure[/i]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
COULD I POSSIBLY LIKE THIS THREAD ANY MORE??
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 12:15am
arachide's picture
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Could a board-approved School Allergy Committee be recognized as the regulatory body required to develop/ENFORCE/update the PPP's and SoC's?
Such a committee, upon official sanction of the school, could serve as the channel by which to address and REGULATE these issues, acknowledged by administration, staff, parents, and students...
(sorry I've been "absent" --I'm trying to get an appointment with my doc tomorrow --think I've got pneumonia...oh joy... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] )

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 12:23am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]my children are literally clawing at me to fix them breakfast. As is hubby. Breakfast for children may not be as involved as breakfast for hubby.[/b]
Wow - will this be the opportunity to finally learn the secret of what Momma Bear feeds her family for breakfast? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] I know she has some bizarre inner hostility towards peanut-free waffles & fruit (which I consider an excellent, healthy breakfast choice) so I am quite curious as to what her more appropriate, healthy choice for breakfast is... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Cereal? Toast? Pop-Tarts perhaps?
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]To greatly reduce the risk of bodily injury [/b]
I see you are continuing in the [b]reduce the risk[/b] theme [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Gail, Thank you for your active participation in a subject dear to heart,
[i]You are a gem and a treasure[/i]
[/b]
hmmm... so what am I? a waffle maniac perhaps? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] how about Anna Marie? Cam's Mom? Cayley's Mom?
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]COULD I POSSIBLY LIKE THIS THREAD ANY MORE?? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b]
Well, I could post more references to merlot in the future?
Will be interested to see your next replies as this dicussion is very interesting. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 21, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 12:40am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Check out the difference between debate and dialogue at this link [url="http://clinton3.nara.gov/Initiatives/OneAmerica/a2.html"]http://clinton3.nara.gov/Initiatives/OneAmerica/a2.html[/url] and hopefully we can can the debate and create the dialogue.
Wishful thinking?[/b]
Hi Carolyn,
How's it going in this thread? What do you think? I think we have a good dialogue going so far...
With Anna Marie, Momma Bear, Gail, myself, etc, I think there will be a good dialogue as we are all bringing up many interesting ideas plus we are all extremely talkative [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 21, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 4:05am
Gail W's picture
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Originally posted by arachide:
[b]Could a board-approved School Allergy Committee be recognized as the regulatory body required to develop/ENFORCE/update the PPP's and SoC's? [/b]
That's [i]the [/i]question in my mind.. who is the enforcer and by what authority. This is the "bottom line" don't you think?? I would think that in order for it (committee)to succeed, it would need the support/backing/authority of certain school staff. Just IMHO.
[b]Such a committee, upon official sanction of the school, could serve as the channel by which to address and REGULATE these issues, acknowledged by administration, staff, parents, and students... [/b]
I do wish you success with this wonderful endeavor. I hope it works... I personally think that for it to work it needs the ultimate backing of the superintendent. Since it has been approved by the Board, I would assume that includes the Superintendent, right? What staff are on the committee?
[b](sorry I've been "absent" --I'm trying to get an appointment with my doc tomorrow --think I've got pneumonia...oh joy... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] ) [/b]
Yuck... sorry to hear that. I'm sure you're exhausted. Hang in there. I'm so glad to see you in this thread and hope your feeling better soon.
Gail

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 7:12am
arachide's picture
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Joined: 08/16/2000 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] This is the "bottom line" don't you think?? [/b]
I like bottom lines.
Quote:[b] Since it has been approved by the Board, I would assume that includes the Superintendent, right? What staff are on the committee?[/b]
It's been approved by the school Governing Board, the principal, and the Parent Committee. Staff on board include the principal ,and more importantly, the school nurse.
We've been kind of given a blank slate to work with (including policy development) --which is why I stay glued to debates (whoops, I mean dialogues) like this.
COUGH-COUGH

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 7:30am
MommaBear's picture
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Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b] I like bottom lines.
[/b]
My bottom lines are usually located pretty high up on the food chain.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 7:35am
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] My bottom lines are usually located pretty high up on the food chain.
[/b]
Definitely above Dempsters peanut-free waffles I would say [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 7:53am
MommaBear's picture
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Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
That's [i]the [/i]question in my mind.. who is the enforcer and by what authority. This is the "bottom line" don't you think?? I would think that in order for it (committee)to succeed, it would need the support/backing/authority of certain school staff. Just IMHO.
[i]and[/i]
I do wish you success with this wonderful endeavor. I hope it works... I personally think that for it to work it needs the ultimate backing of the superintendent. Since it has been approved by the Board, I would assume that includes the Superintendent, right? What staff are on the committee?
[/B]
"Ultimately" speaking.........
Would such a regulatory body (if indeed, that is what the "committee" is) be required to "walk in step" with any laws, licensing regulations, etc,... of any "higher authorities"? Ie: local, state, federal? [i]Provincial[/i]???, etc.....?
Would this have some effect on "enforceability"? [i]Motivation[/i]??
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely asking questions.
PS....Gail, I am working on my response. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Please [b]Bear[/b] with me.

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 8:18am
patsmommy's picture
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Joined: 10/31/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Hi Becca,
Yes, I may be a peace keeper, but I also have strong opinions and will defend them... hehe I will be here to defend my peanut-free products (Canadian Kit Kat, Dempster's waffles, etc..) haha [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b]
I forgot the most important thing, Erik, could you send me some kit kats [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 8:28am
patsmommy's picture
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Joined: 10/31/2001 - 09:00

ok, I dont know what happen,I posted something before my previous post and its not there, grrr.
I have a 5 1/2 yr old pa/tna son. He is presently in kindergarten in public school. He has a ihp and there is a full time nurse. I recently found out that the catholic school by us went "peanut free" last year. I registered him to go there next year.I am waiting to see if he gets in. My feeling is that school is already reducing the risk.Yes nothing is 100% but he will have his IHP. There is a full time nurse in that school also.
I like this thread. Sorry this post is not debating anything. I have a 7month old on my hip who is not happy.

Posted on: Wed, 05/21/2003 - 9:36am
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by patsmommy:
[b] I forgot the most important thing, Erik, could you send me some kit kats [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img][/b]
peanut-free ones? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

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