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Why NOT obtaining Section 504 for your child is a DISSERVICE to your child... - Peanut Allergy Information

Why NOT obtaining Section 504 for your child is a DISSERVICE to your child...

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... a disservice to YOU, YOUR SCHOOL, and, above all else, YOUR CHILD.

Having just been through the process of obtaining a Section 504 Designation for my 5th grade daughter, I have developed very strong opinions about why this designation is vital for my child. In retrospect, I wish I had requested this protection for my child before she started kindergarten. And I have learned that having NOT requested the Designation upfront created a different set of problems that I had to inevitably address.

I hope this thread will address the fears of parents who are considering whether or not to go the "504 path". I hope that parents will share their experiences in order to help other parents who are wrestling with whether or not to pursue a Section 504 Designation for their child... or those parents who are beginning the 504 Designation process... to help them better understand that a 504 designation might not be easy, but it is not to be feared.

I came to my school district with the idea that 504 was a confrontational process, and this was confirmed by my conversations with my School District. So I waited six years to request this protection to avoid this (for us, inevitable) confrontation. This was a mistake and my child ultimately suffered because of it.

I hope others will chime in to help explain the beauty and service of a Section 504 Designation for our children. It might be helpful to write our testimonials in a consistent format if possible. I will write my comments in the format of my mistaken "myth" about 504, and why/how the reality of 504 better serves my child.

I try to add to this over time, as I hope others will too. Please add your experience if you also bought into a myth that has already been stated. And please also add to the myth(s) you experienced.

[b]Myth #1: Requesting a Section 504 will label me as a "difficult parent" and the School District won't want to work with me. [/b]

I found the opposite to be true. Having the 504 Designation made it clear to everyone why the school district needed to address accommodations. It provided the correct motivation for the school to proactively address accommodations and removed the onus of responsibility from me (parent) to the school district. By squarely defining the school district's accountability, it [i]liberated me [/i]from the my repeated requests to the SD. When the responsibility was mine to identify and advocating for specific accommodations, I felt like a "pest" and I was much [i]more [/i] llikely to be labeled "difficult". Now that the SD has acknowledged that their student has a legal right for protections, they take more responsibility to identify and address accommodations. I am viewed from a completely different light.

I realized rather late that by not having the Section 504 Designation, I also was left to negotiate with other parents directly. Before the SD understood that 'related services' applied to ALL activities, they directed me to coordinate activities with the other parent volunteers. This will always put you/me in the terribly awkward position of negotiating with other parents. THIS WAS A HUGE MISTAKE, and I find it impossible for a parent to not to have some sort of negative fall out by having been placed in this erroneous position.

A Section 504 Designation allows a parent to foster healthy interactions with other parents and staff. You become the "supportive, cooperative" parent that assists other parents in implementing [i]the School District's accommodations[/i].

[b]Myth #2: It is better if the school staff find me to be cooperative and likeable. It's better to avoid conflict with staff because if the staff doesn't like me, my child may not be treated as well by the staff.[/b]

Again, I fund the opposite to be true. Sorta. I think it is important to cooperate with staff. But what happened was that by not having the 504 Designation, I was placed in the incorrect position of directly [i]negotiating[/i] with school staff and parents. This is just a losing position for any parent to be in.

The better and appropriate position is for the SD to acknowledge to its staff that this child is legally entitled to accommodations, and that these are not directly negotiated between school staff and the parent, or parent/parent. They are accommodations are created by a "504 Team", are implemented and enforced by the school administration. It removes you from on-going negotiations directly with your teacher/principal, and again liberates you to a more appropriate role of supporting the teacher/school/parents in [i]the School District's accommodations [/i]for your child.

[b]Myth #3: My School (School District) is cooperating with me and I have the accommodations that I want. A 504 is not necessary.[/b]

Again, I found this not to be true. My school staff cooperated and had a very good IHP in place. I always felt the uncomfortable strain that they "were doing so much already" and that I somehow didn't appreciate this because I was asking them to address other new accommodations as they became apparent. I always felt beholden for the attention and the good accommodations that I had negotiated with them to provide. They seemed to want to create an IHP and then they "were done".

The 504 Designation maintains the School District's [i]accountability[/i] to proactively create the accommodations. This accountability and ownership is necessary for you to have a good, healthy relationship with your school community.

By saratopia on Jun 1, 2009

My son daniel is now 12 going to be 13 soon and I don't think he takes his allergy very seriously.I would really like some ideas on how to drive into him that it is only because we are so careful with him that he has stayed healthy.I would also like more info on how to go about section 504.

On May 14, 2005

Wow, Gail! What a great post! Thank you for sharing your valuable and hard-won experience. Reading this makes me feel sure I am on the right path in applying for a Section 504 evaluation.

On May 14, 2005

Gail,

Just adding to your post.

Myth: Things have been going great. Why rock the boat with a 504 request?

Just because things are fine now, doesn't mean they will be fine tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year. Teachers change, principals change, retire, die, etc. One new person can make your "wonderful" plan a nightmare. If you do not have a 504, you have no backup to continue with a great plan.

A child with no 504 is on the same playing field as any other "normal" child. They do not have any special guaranteed rights. Some people don't like to kiss their rights goodbye, but they don't even think about this when the decision is made to not pursue a 504.

You say adios to a 504? Then you might be saying adios to your child's rights when they need them the most.

On May 14, 2005

Thank you. I am just now working a ihp and it is a stuggle enough. The school keeps putting me off and I am trying to be seen as agreeable. I will now spend my summer pushing for the 504 so I have that accountibility in place for years to come. Is it necessary to use a lawyer for a 504?

On May 14, 2005

Yes! Great one, ryan's mom. I also experienced that one and would like to add to it.

[b]Myth #4: Things have been going great. Why rock the boat with a 504 request?[/b]

Maybe you'll find that the 504 Designation really didn't make any difference in the accommodations that your School District provides. But maybe during the 13 years of your child's education you'll find out, as I did, [i] it does. [/i] In our particular case it happened to be that my School District did not believe that they needed to provide any accommodations in their extra-curricular programs "that were fee-based." As my DD enters Middle School, these types of activities are very important to her. Obtaining the 504 Designation showed the SD that they indeed were required to provide the necessary accommodations that would allow her to participate.

And I absolutely agree with ryan's mom excellent point regarding the permanency of school staff. Not only is it inappropriate to base your child's accommodations on your ability to forge a good personal relationship with individual staff members, [i]they leave.[/i] During our 6 years at the K-5 elementary school, we've had 7 primary teachers (one left before the end of the year and a new replacement teacher was hired in her place), 4 school counselors, 3 school nurses, 2 Assistant SuperIntendents, and 2 Superintendent of Schools. Our school principal was the only consistent player.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 14, 2005).]

On May 14, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by qdebbie1: [b]Thank you. I am just now working a ihp and it is a stuggle enough. The school keeps putting me off and I am trying to be seen as agreeable. I will now spend my summer pushing for the 504 so I have that accountibility in place for years to come. Is it necessary to use a lawyer for a 504?[/b]

Our IHP is the major component to our 504 plan. Personally, I would become very familiar with 504 before requesting it. That way, you can include the key pieces of information to the District within your request. There's lots of help here on the boards to do this. And if you'd like, I'll help you.

I definitely wanted to be seen as "agreeable" by the school district, so I can completely relate. I really had to think about this, and why it was so important to me. I realized that I had it backwards: It doesn't make any difference at all if the school district administrators don't like me. What matters to me is that I am liked by fellow parents, because I needed the social relationships enjoyed by myself and my family. [i]It is healthy to have good social relationships within your school community.[/i] A 504 can help you have that.

Whatever you do (504 or not), don't let yourself get caught in the trap of having to negotiate necessary accommodations directly with another parent. Never ever. I think it can the kiss of death regarding you and your child's ability to have healthy social relationships. And that's exactly what can happen if the school district doesn't make the accommodations themselves with accountability to their own accommodations (i.e. a 504).

On May 14, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat: [b]Reading this makes me feel sure I am on the right path in applying for a Section 504 evaluation.[/b]

I actually had thought about you, Momcat, as I contemplated starting this thread. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I'm not sure about this one, but I'm going to throw it out there for others to comment on:

[b]Myth #5: If a School District is really resistant to a 504 Designation, the fight might not be worth it.[/b]

I almost think the exact opposite is true: if your School District is resistant to considering a Section 504 for your child, consider it a red flag. I think that if your SD is reluctant or outright objects to a Section 504 designation for your child, then you will encounter problems down the road no matter what. You need to ask yourself: why is the School District not wanting to be accountable?

On May 14, 2005

My PA son will start kindergarten in the 2006/07 school year. I would really like to get up to speed on this 504 thing.

Does anyone have links to a good web site that would teach us in a step-by-step fashion? Also someone else asked, but got no answer that I could see: Do we need a lawyer for this?

Thanks!

------------------ [i][b]Peanut Slayer[/b][/i]

On May 14, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkmage: [b]Does anyone have links to a good web site that would teach us in a step-by-step fashion? [/b]

There are several threads here where parents have shared their process. And there are lots of good links within the 'Schools' threads. [url="http://www.allergysupport.org"]www.allergysupport.org[/url] is one of my personal favorites.

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkmage: [b]Also someone else asked, but got no answer that I could see: Do we need a lawyer for this?[/b]

I will offer my personal opinion on this: No, I don't think you [i]need[/i] an attorney. Not initially anyway. An attorney [i]could[/i] be helpful, but an attorney who isn't really familiar with special ed law and food allergies could also potentially add to frustrations.

Anyone else wish to comment?

On May 14, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkmage: [b]My PA son will start kindergarten in the 2006/07 school year. I would really like to get up to speed on this 504 thing. [/b]

My suggestion to anyone who is considering formally requesting an Eligibility Meeting to determine a Section 504 Designation for their child is to first [b]read the full text of the law.[/b] I think this is the link:

[url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#S3"]www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#S3[/url]

Read it. Read it again and again. Get familiar with it. Do other reading about 504. Go back and read the law text again. Become comfortable with the language and the meaning. Google phrases like "significant limitation Section 504" or "Section 504 procedure manual" and read and read. Read the posts here. Read, read, read!

Several statements that my School District administrators made to me regarding the Section 504 law were incorrect. They don't know this, and it's very helpful to be knowledgeable about the law before engaging in conversation with your SD about it. It's not exactly 'fun' reading, but I think it's really important that a parent feel very comfortable with the language and meaning of the original text of this law.

On May 14, 2005

Okay that leads into

[b]Myth #6: School Districts are familiar with Section 504. My School District has an administrator who is the District's '504 Compliance Officer'. This person knows all about how Section 504 works, handles complaints in the school district about 504 violations, and will help me regarding Section 504 for my child with food allergies.[/b]

This one was really, really hard for me. It infuriated me that the administrator (Assistant Superintendent of Schools) assigned by the School District to assist parents/students regarding their [i]rights [/i]under Section 504 was the very person who told me erroneous information. [i]The 504 "compliance officer" wasn't in compliance with the 504 law. [/i] I still have a hard time getting my mind around this, and can't help but feel anger still.

I truly hope that your school district is familiar with how Section 504 applies to children with life-threatening food allergies. I know of other moms locally who breezed through the process with their school districts and are shocked by my experience. I even remember reading a School District policy (can't remember which state or school district) that stated that any child identified with anaphylaxis to foods was [i]required[/i] to have a Section 504 plan.

[b]Myth #7: There are lots of experts who will help you with obtaining a Section 504 Designation for your child.[/b]

The very hardest thing in all this for me was that I realized I had to do this myself. I didn't want to do this. I was far more comfortable using my time to try to find someone else, an expert of some kind, an undeniable authority who I'd hire to do this for me. A parent advocate, an attorney, my DD's allergist, another expert allergist, a school board member who would take it on. There had to be someone out there who would knew what to do, and I spent tons of effort trying to find that person.

Then, when I couldn't find that 'expert authority' to represent and work on my behalf, I turned to my husband. For a long time I wanted him to be equally as involved in this process as I was, or better yet, take the leadership role so that I didn't have to. I made piles of materials to read/review so that he could help me connect the dots. He is a physician, and I wanted him to become the 'expert' I was searching for. It caused some friction in our marriage.

I felt very frightened that there was no one who would do this for me.

Thank God for 2 people I 'met' here on pa.com who acted as my coach. One in particular was a God send.

On May 15, 2005

IMHO, this is one of the best posts on the subject of 504 designation.

[b] THANK YOU! [/b]

FWIW, we currently homeschool our 6 year-old for PA reasons as well as educational. But 2 nights ago, after attending a Dinosaur Day at a local museum -- complete with 200+ other delighted kids from local schools -- he came to me and asked, "Mom, I wish you could let me go to school, you know, out in public." My heart is breaking for him.

I just don't know if I have the fight in me to get him the level of safety he deserves.

Elizabeth

On May 15, 2005

When I worked as a high school teacher, the only time I ever heard of a reference to the 504 coordinator was when we were getting monitored by the state. I think most of us were thinking, "504 what???"

We really didn't know what the 504 coodinator did, who he was, until we were specifically informed about it for monitoring. Then it was just knowing the 504 coordinator was the principal at our school.

Believe me, there are many schools with administrators that don't have a clue who the 504 coordinator is. To this day, I still don't have clarification who it is in our district, but I told the principal it was probably him.

And as far as "knowledgable" 504 coordinators, since many districts don't know who it is, can it be expected that the coordinator knows anything about Section 504 and how it applies to students with food allergies??? I don't think so...

Just my two cents. Most of us here know far more about food allergies and 504's than district administrators.

But hey...that's my opinion.

On May 15, 2005

Gail W,

What a fabulous topic you've started here - you've pulled together so many key thoughts re:504 plans. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W:

[b]Myth #6: School Districts are familiar with Section 504. My School District has an administrator who is the District's '504 Compliance Officer'. This person knows all about how Section 504 works, handles complaints in the school district about 504 violations, and will help me regarding Section 504 for my child with food allergies.[/b]

The 504 compliance officer often doesn't have a clue how to handle a food allergy scenario. When we were going through our initial efforts to obtain 504 designation for DS's entry into Kindergarten, our stress was multiplied because we were taking the lack of progress personally.

A few years later, I've reflected on my experiences and those shared by others, and realized that there was nothing personal to it at all. As I discussed in another recent post, my sense is that the practical application of 504 plans to food allergies is still a relatively recent phenomenon. Some schools are only just encountering this issue, coinciding with the increased prevalence of food allergies combined with the increased awareness on the part of parents to be able to use this tool to protect their children's rights and keep them safe. So, the reality is that schools are often facing a novel situation when presented with a request for 504 for food allergies.

Quote:

[b]Myth #7: There are lots of experts who will help you with obtaining a Section 504 Designation for your child.[/b]

The very hardest thing in all this for me was that I realized I had to do this myself.[/B]

For me, it meant spending every evening at this site for about 3 months (this was in 2002) to read [i]every[/i] historical post on 504 plans, in order to learn about the law, gather key links to related resources, and pull sample 504 plans to jumpstart development of DS's first plan for kindergarten. I will say, though, that in the last couple of years, we've started capturing some awfully good 504 information at this site, so it's here for the taking....

On May 15, 2005

[b]Myth #8 - 504 plans are only for those who want significant risk reduction accommodations, like having the school go peanut-free. Also, they are a static document that once signed, is cast in stone.[/b]

I have found that using a 504 plan has been extremely flexible in meeting the changing needs of DS as he has grown older. In kindergarten, we instituted a [b]grade-wide[/b] restriction on peanut/tree-nut products for the classrooms, and he was assigned a full-time aide. In 1st grade, we scaled back to a peanut/tree-nut free classroom, plus a class-wide peanut/tree-nut free table in the cafeteria, with wipes upon exit. For 2nd grade, we plan to scale back use of the aide to just the highest risk times (entering school, recess, and lunchtime), and DS will begin to take responsibility for passing his Epi-pack to his specials teachers (e.g. Music, Art) when he leaves the classroom.

The 504 plan is adjusted to meet these yearly changes in accommodations, yet is also perserves the ability to keep DS safe - there is also an accommodation that states that if the plan isn't working (i.e. he is having reactions at school during the year), that the 504 team must meet at that time to review incidents and determine what adjustments should be made to the plan. So, a 504 plan is really a [i]living document[/i], that can be changed as needed to ensure that equal access to education is achieved.

Along the lines of what Ryan's Mom mentioned - just like school administration staffing, the thing about food allergies themselves is that they are unpredictable; also, children can develop additional food allergies as time goes on. By having a 504 plan in place (thereby protecting your child's civil rights), I believe it makes it easier to adjust for changing medical circumstances.

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

I truly feel this is one of THE most important, pertinent thread topics to hit the boards in a long time.

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutternomore: [b] The 504 plan is adjusted to meet these yearly changes in accommodations, yet is also perserves the ability to keep DS safe - there is also an accommodation that states that if the plan isn't working (i.e. he is having reactions at school during the year), that the 504 team must meet at that time to review incidents and determine what adjustments should be made to the plan. So, a 504 plan is really a [i]living document[/i], that can be changed as needed to ensure that equal access to education is achieved.

[/b]

Although we don't have a 504, we have an OHI (Other Health Impaired) designation under IDEA in his IEP, and we don't have a specific, written point detailing the possible need to revisit his plan in order to effect necessary changes, [i]it is my understanding that such a need is already a principle of IEP plans.[/i] As a matter of fact even tho [i]we have revisited the plan several times this last year[/i], we are to attend what I understand to be a [i]mandatory[/i] yearly review meeting this week. (*We* don't have to attend, certain staff [b]do[/b], but, obviously, we will be attending. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] )

It's just the way I understand it, and I could be wrong. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Just describing my own personal, highly individual, and unique situation.

On May 16, 2005

Nutternomore! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] I had so hoped you'd add to this thread! Think up some more, will you? I'm going to try to read through some threads to find examples. Care to join me?

The more experience that posters can add to these and other myths, the more helpful it can be for readers. I welcome more posters to feel free to add here.

Sorta related to Myth #8 and with a twist of Myth #6 added:

[b]Myth #9: My school has made some accommodations already and says that they have already provided all the accommodations that they can. So a 504 plan won't provide any added benefit for my child because my school has already made all the "reasonable accommodations" a 504 plan would require them to do anyway.[/b]

This is why it is so important to be very familiar with the actual law. Read, read, read it. The concept of "reasonable accommodations" applies to the Employment Section of the law, [i]not the Education Section.[/i]

This came up with us in a roundabout way, before our Eligibility meeting, when my School District pointed to a statement in their "Section 504 Policy and Procedure Manual" that stated, [i]incorrectly[/i], that they were required to make "reasonable" accommodations. They began making statements indicating that they'd already done this (created reasonable accommodations), and that a 504 plan wouldn't provide my DD with any added benefit. [i]"Why?"[/i] and [i]"What will a 504 plan give your DD that we haven't already provided?"[/i] became the focus, and put me in a defensive position. The school's response was pretty much: "We have been very reasonable, and now you're asking for [i]more?[/i] You're being unreasonable, and we don't have to do that".

As pointed out in various other threads like this one:

[b]Quote from Momcat from another thread: [url="http://www.reedmartin.com/zirkel.htm"]http://www.reedmartin.com/zirkel.htm[/url]

This letter is from the Office of Civil Rights and explains what is meant by "reasonable accommodations" in the context of elementary and secondary education.[/b]

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

[b]Myth #11:

My school district and community are educated, progressive, and wealthy. Therefore, I will not need IDEA or 504 protection. They will know what to do, do it with compassion and out of moral/ethical obligation. They probably are very familiar with needs such as ours and if they haven't already, will set a precedent for other institutions.[/b]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

Yes, IEP's are updated annually, and from my experience, parental involvement is strongly encouraged.

504's are implemented from starting date (X) to ending date (X) of services, usually being a school year.

Plans may be modified during the year as needed. And, as Nutternomore pointed out, 504 plans have flexibility. Same with an IEP. With educational growth and maturity, these plans are meant to change with the specific needs of the student.

On May 16, 2005

Is it okay to change it to #10?

[quote]Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]Myth #10: My school district and community are educated, progressive, and wealthy. Therefore, I will not need IDEA or 504 protection. They will know what to do, do it with compassion and out of moral/ethical obligation. They probably are very familiar with needs such as ours and if they haven't already, will set a precedent for other institutions.[/b]

Thank you, MommaBear. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] This is also very relevant to my experience. We selected our public school like many shop for a private school. We toured schools and interviewed at least a dozen principals face to face. We wanted not only strong academics, but a FULL TIME school nurse, and a quick '911' response time. Plus, we wanted a relatively small school and a strong school community.

We found it. Bonus: The principal was/is fabulous with a strong background in Special Ed. Then we targeted our home-buying in the one area for our school. We acquired an enormous mortgage... an investment we embraced.

All the right factors were there. My school district and community [i]are[/i] educated, progressive, and wealthy. The elementary school staff are tops and very compassionate.

Our problem wasn't with the elementary school staff. We had 'bumps' and we worked them out. We did this based on [i]a personal realtionship.[/i]Our problem was with the School District administration who resisted 504 designations. The administration created a culture that opposed 504s, the benefits that a 504 plan can provide fro both student [i]and staff. [/i]

As I posted in another thread, [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/006108.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/006108.html[/url] the scary thing wasn't that we were faced with stupid or dispassionate people who were not provided the resources to do their job. It was frightening that intelligent, compassionate people who had ample resources failed us.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]Myth #4: Things have been going great. Why rock the boat with a 504 request?[/b]

You say adios to a 504? Then you might be saying adios to your child's rights when they need them the most.

I was thinking about this more. (And I completely agree, BTW.) Mentally, I substituted the words "504 request" with "marriage":

[i]"Things have been going great. Why rock the boat with... marriage."[/i]

ryan's mom (and everyone), Do you find any similarities between formalizing the relationship between your child and the School District with a Section 504 Designation, and, say, formalizing a relationship between two adults with a legal marriage?

I wonder because the reasoning (a.k.a. excuses) seem very similar. Maybe it's just me?

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]Is it okay to change it to #10?

[/b]

whoops! (vacation lag)

sure.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

now............[b]Myth #11

The school my child attends is a private school, and therefore does not need to adhere to ADA legislation.[/b]

and..........

[b]Myth #12

A private school, particularly one of my family's faith, or one that is affluent, is always a better choice for a child with disabilities or special needs. They will be more flexible and compassionate. They will try harder to accommodate. They have [i]values[/i].[/b]

On May 16, 2005

The biggest misconception people (more specifically addressing "newbies" to 504's or the education field) have is that people in education (well, that includes ANY profession, but I'm addressing education because of this thread) will be moral and ethical. That includes public and private education.

Gail W,

When I first started out creating a 504 and dealing with the school, I considered myself more of a legal advocate for my son. Trying not to address feelings, but in doing what needed to be done to keep Ryan safe.

One major difference between formalizing a relationship between a 504 and marriage, is well, love and intuition. Marriage shouldn't be considered as rocking the boat, rather let's get the boat rockin'. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Same with the 504.

The intangibles (love, intuition, trust, friendship) are good reasons to obtain a 504. A 504 is a tangible document. You don't have to trust, it doesn't consider friendship, it's a legal document plain and simple which spells things out on what is to be accomplished to keep a child safe in the educational environment. (Hmmmm...perhaps marriages should come with a "504" too? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] )

So let's consider this aspect. Many, many marriages end in divorce because of failed expectations. Many 504's are reasonably successful because of good planning.

On May 16, 2005

Thinking about meadow... I hope meadow will add to this thread....

Carefulmom, too. You've had some excellent experience about how a 504 plan is administered. I'm think about this experience and how you handled it (so well) in the context of a 504 plan:

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/005996.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/005996.html[/url]

On May 16, 2005

I must be so lucky. Before my son started kindergater, I hadn't yet found PA.com, and had certainly never heard of a 504. To top it off, we moved from one state to another days before the start of school. The school knew about Jimmy's PA because when I went in to register him, I spoke to the nurse about that as well as his other health issues. The school actually initiated the 504. They have been great.

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]One major difference between formalizing a relationship between a 504 and marriage, is well, love and intuition. Marriage shouldn't be considered as rocking the boat, rather let's get the boat rockin'. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Same with the 504.

The intangibles (love, intuition, trust, friendship) are good reasons to obtain a 504. A 504 is a tangible document. You don't have to trust, it doesn't consider friendship, it's a legal document plain and simple which spells things out on what is to be accomplished to keep a child safe in the educational environment. [/b]

Yes! Exactly. You obtained your 504 Designation before your son began kindergarten, yes? Same as Nutternomore?

My experience was that we started school without any plan at all. The only thing we had were some of those intangibles that you spoke of: intuition, trust, friendship. And I'll add to that: mutual respect and [i]good faith. [/i] nod to MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Our relationship with the school was much like a courtship:

"First comes love": we "chose" our school based on our DD's situation and needs. DD was the first PA child in their district, and they said they would work with us. In conversations, they responded with a sincere desire to make the accommodations that she needed. It was a verbal agreement based on the intangible factors of compassion, trust, and good faith. It was "love at first sight". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

"Then comes marriage": in our case, after some "bumps in the road" resulting from the misunderstandings of not having a plan in writing, we formalized some accommodations by creating an IHP. Again, we took the next step together: were the very first to have an IHP in our district. I don't really consider this [i]marriage,[/i] more like our formal "engagement": a tangible document that formalized our intangible feelings of 'love, trust and friendship.' [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

But we still ran up against limitations with the tangible IHP document. They didn't see how issues of segregation as a problem using the perspective of the IHP. The IHP was great at addressing safeguards, but not leveling the playing field. It failed us particularly in 3rd grade when DD sat a a very small table in the cafeteria that, unlike the other cafeteria tables, only allowed for 5 other spots. This table filled up quickly with kids who for various reason didn't want to sit with their class, and consequently, DD never was able to eat lunch with her friends. It was heart-breaking to her. A Section 504 plan would have helped the school see how this particular accommodation was implemented in a way (a "peanut free" table with very limited seating) was not appropriate because it did not provide her the same "access" as her "non-disabled peers".

So for us, we did it somewhat the opposite of you~ our relationship with the school was for 6 years based our on the intangibles... good faith, love, trust, etc. Then the IHP added some tangible documentation, but not enough. The accountability for "access" was still missing and not acountable. It was the 504 Designation that consummated the relationship because, IMO, it is the only manner that the School District is accountable for our DD's rights ([b]LRE, access[/b]) under the law.

I won't continue any further with this 'marriage' analogy. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] It's too tempting to MommaBear to not make any further analogous statements about how I got into bed with my school partners before getting 'married'. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] She could have a field day! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/eek.gif[/img] [i]And I would agree with them all![/i]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy's mom: [b]I must be so lucky. Before my son started kindergarten, I hadn't yet found PA.com, and had certainly never heard of a 504. To top it off, we moved from one state to another days before the start of school. The school knew about Jimmy's PA because when I went in to register him, I spoke to the nurse about that as well as his other health issues. The school actually initiated the 504. They have been great. [/b]

[i]"I think that if your SD is reluctant or outright objects to a Section 504 designation for your child, then you will encounter problems down the road no matter what. You need to ask yourself: why is the School District not wanting to be accountable?"[/i]

Jimmy's mom made a great point of how the reverse is also true: a School District that embraces 504 understands its accountability to the law and proactively addresses your child's rights under the law.

On May 16, 2005

I guess I have been pretty lucky as well. My dd is currently in 1 st grade and I always knew that we would need a 504 plan- and so did my school.

They had all the forms and poilicies in place. What I had to do was tell them what SPECIFIC accomodations would have to be made to make the environment safe for dd.

I studied these boards, and a huge thumbs up to Nutternomore becuase he was and is an excellent resource. I read all his posts and that made me realize that it was OK to ask for what I wanted.

K was pretty easy as the environment is a little more controlled, with the shorter day etc but as we move on, it gets a little tougher. Thankfully, we have a new pricipal who is so amazing. She really gets it and knows that she can learn from me.

Our school is NOT nut free. We have instituted handwashing, wipes after eating, a nut free table outside and a table where children who may have nut products have to eat so that table can be monitored a little closer.

I feel very lucky that my dd has an aide during snack, lunch, and recess. this woman carries her fanny pack and watches out for my dd (the way I would). Her teacher, and all the teachers are trained annually with the Epi pen and signs and symptoms of a reaction.

I just had my 504 meeting for 2nd grade and mostly everything will stay the same. We revisted some of the issues- again as Nutternomore said- the 504 is a living document or maybe a liquid one. It may need to be looked at and possibly changed during the year if it has problems.

My principal takes this "problem"on. She wants the school community to embrace this and recognize that people are different but should be treated the same. She wants to put out notices to families from her about allergies and reducing the risk.

I used to feel and sometimes still do, that I am asking for too much, I'm a trouble maker, or feel they must all be saying "Can't she just go away" but I have decided it doesn't matter. My dd deserves to participate in school and feel like she belongs. She loves school so much and thankfully feels fully accepted.

Anyways, not sure I have said anything important except that every child deserves to be safe at school and as Nutternomore pointed out, we may be the first parents at a school who are asking for a 504 plan and that is ok. the school has a legal responsibilty and i say go for it. the fight is a good one and in the end, everyone will be happy!

Don't get me wrong... I had to work my A@# off to get where we are. It was not put in my lap, but my message is, It was worth it and I have done a service to my child and the school.

Good Luck to you all and read every bit of these borads because their is so much help here.

[This message has been edited by Gwen 5 (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

erased double post

[This message has been edited by Gwen 5 (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] I won't continue any further with this 'marriage' analogy. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] It's too tempting to MommaBear to not make any further analogous statements about how I got into bed with my school partners before getting 'married'. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] She could have a field day! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/eek.gif[/img] [i]And I would agree with them all![/i][/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

[i]Say it isn't so.[/i]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

[b]At the least[/b], I consider our [i]formalized[/i] plan (in our case "OHI" under IDEA) [b]a two carat diamond set in platinum.[/b]

That [i]good faith[/i] thing. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[i]Bling bling.[/i]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 16, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

Gail W,

I informed our principal two years before he started Kingergarten that a severely-allergic child was headed his way.

Then a year before he was to attend Kindergarten, I met with the principal, superintendent, and asst. to the superintendent to get together, formally announce it is likely he would attend the school in 13 months, generate ideas, and give them a general idea of his needs.

In January I got the ball rolling with a 504 meeting set for (among other things!)for the meeting to be tailored to the curriculum at the elementary school. By June, the plan was finalized with everyone on board. The 504 was signed by all parties two weeks before school started for Ryan's Kindergarten year. We're now already planning for 3rd grade! A 504 has let things progress smoothly from year to year. Rarely do I have to talk with the principal about some misunderstanding. Everything is down on paper in black and white.

Now what are we up to as far as myths are concerned. Because this is another one, Gail, and I'll let you number it.

Myth #?: School will work as promptly as possible to order to accelerate the 504 plan process.

I've worked in a public school. Things get processed S L O W L Y. Don't wait until July if your child is starting school in September. That IS too late. You must start early. The 504 process doesn't take days or weeks, it takes months, and the sooner one gets started the better. Give the principal advance notice a year before that your child will be starting school. The PARENT must call to set up a meeting with the principal (and any other parties involved.) Don't leave things up to the school to get things done. For a successful plan, take charge early and keep everything moving. In a way, you must consider your position as more of a "lawyer" for your child, not a parent. You are responsible for making sure your child is given the rights he/she is entitled to. And this is also important: PUT EVERYTHING IN WRITING!!! Leaving a paper trail is one of the single most important things you can do for your child.

[This message has been edited by ryan's mom (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]At the least, I consider our [i]formalized[/i] plan (in our case "OHI" under IDEA) a two carat diamond set in platinum.[/b]

Indeed. So do I. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b] Myth #?: School will work as promptly as possible to order to accelerate the 504 plan process.[/b]

[b]HA![/b]

Quote:

[b]I've worked in a public school. Things get processed S L O W L Y. [/b]

[i]insanely so.[/i]

On May 16, 2005

You can't put a price on a 504, because a child's life is priceless! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]Myth #13: School will work as promptly as possible to order to accelerate the 504 plan process.[/b]

I've worked in a public school. Things get processed S L O W L Y. Don't wait until July if your child is starting school in September. That IS too late. You must start early. The 504 process doesn't take days or weeks, it takes months, and the sooner one gets started the better. Give the principal advance notice a year before that your child will be starting school. The PARENT must call to set up a meeting with the principal (and any other parties involved.) Don't leave things up to the school to get things done. For a successful plan, take charge early and keep everything moving. In a way, you must consider your position as more of a "lawyer" for your child, not a parent. You are responsible for making sure your child is given the rights he/she is entitled to. And this is also important: PUT EVERYTHING IN WRITING!!! Leaving a paper trail is one of the single most important things you can do for your child.

Good one!!

In first grade, DD had 9 contact reactions which lead us to requesting a more formalized written plan. That was in April. It took over 20 follow up inquiries and we FINALLY got a draft IHP in March of THE FOLLOWING YEAR. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img]

A school district definitely operates on a different clock.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]You can't put a price on a 504, because a child's life is priceless! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]

aww, I'm not putting a price on a life, just looking for a [i]hint [/i]of committment. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Nothing makes me prickle more than cold feet. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy's mom: I must be so lucky. Before my son started kindergartner, I hadn't yet found PA.com, and had certainly never heard of a 504. To top it off, we moved from one state to another days before the start of school. The school knew about Jimmy's PA because when I went in to register him, I spoke to the nurse about that as well as his other health issues. The school actually initiated the 504. They have been great.

and

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwen 5: I guess I have been pretty lucky as well. My dd is currently in 1 st grade and I always knew that we would need a 504 plan- and so did my school.

They had all the forms and policies in place.

Yes, I think you are [i]very fortunate [/i]to have not needed to fight for your child's rights.

[b]Why do you think that is? [/b] Who fought before you? I'm sure someone did.

Someone else before you fought for their PA child's rights... and now, fortunately, you and your child are benefitting from their hard-won fight. Thank goodness! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

[b]Myth #5: If a School District is really resistant to a 504 Designation, the fight might not be worth it.[/b]

I cut/pasted this from another thread called "How do I get started?" regarding resistance and confrontation: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001705.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001705.html[/url]

Quote:

Originally posted by Greenlady: I would like to chime in on everyone's advice about having a 504 plan. We decided not to have a 504 plan because it seemed too confrontational. When I met with the principal I had a great feeling about the school - she has a nephew that is allergic to bee stings and witnessed an anaphylatic attack, and really seemed to "get it." A 504 plan didn't seem necessary.

BIG MISTAKE! Our troubles began with my son's teacher planning a class exercise that required them to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. When I suggested an alternative of cream cheese and jelly, she sent the following email:

We are making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches next week because of reading/ language arts lessons that we will be doing all week. We will be reading a book called peanut butter and jelly. We will be working on sequencing of the story. I have several lessons in which the students sequence how to make peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches. I am willing to change it to the soy peanut butter but using anything else takes away from the story, song, and sequencing that we will be doing all week. If [ds] has a problem with even using soy peanut butter, [another teacher] is willing to take him at the end of the day so that he doesn;thave to be around the peanut butter.

Long story short, we ended up switching classes and getting a 504 plan. A well-crafted plan is helpful to everyone because it lays out expectations and helps avoid misunderstandings.

On May 16, 2005

Now where can this thread be placed so the information is "in your face" so to speak. IMO, this is must-read information for parents planning a food-allergic child's entry into public school.

I do not want to see this thread get buried in a myriad of other issues.

I am VERY pro 504, and this thread has compelling reasons for those parents still in a quandary over whether to choose or not choose the 504 designation.

I will add that the 504 has been the basis of mutual respect between me and the principal. I would like to think that I (as a parent) have been clear and thorough in how my son's food allergy is managed in and outside of school. What I say is what I mean, and what I mean is what I say. We have a very open and honest relationship, in which we are not afraid to ask questions, nor question something that is being done or proposed. The 504 has been the basis for good communication AND a good relationship.

[This message has been edited by ryan's mom (edited May 16, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]Now where can this thread be placed so the information is "in your face" so to speak. IMO, this is must-read information for parents planning a food-allergic child's entry into public school.

I do not want to see this thread get buried in a myriad of other issues.

[/b]

Ryan's Mom: I'm with you; too bad Chris hasn't updated these boards to the newer version of Infopop; I've seen boards that have [i]sticky posts[/i] (i.e. posts that always stay at the top of a page).

Best to just keep re-raising periodically, but especially every winter for planning purposes!

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited May 17, 2005).]

On May 16, 2005

[b]Myth #14: A 504 plan is a tactical tool I need to use to help my child be safe this year.[/b]

While this can be true, especially if you're shifting to a 504 at some time other than upon entry into the public schools (usually kindergarten), when used correctly, a 504 plan is a [b]strategic[/b] tool that can be used to support your child's educational journey through adulthood.

Most of what we've been talking about falls under Subpart D of the 504 legislation [url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#D"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#D[/url] , covering preschool, elementary, and secondary education. However, there is also a Subpart E that relates the post-secondary education [url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#E"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#E[/url] .

That section of the 504 law, combined with Title II of ADA provides good support all the way through the college years; see OCR's Q&A for some interesting information: [url="http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/qa-disability.html"]http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/qa-disability.html[/url]

All things being equal, it is easier to make a case for 504 eligibility when children are younger, since they are less self-sufficient in general.

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore - thanks Gail W! (edited May 17, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited May 17, 2005).]

On May 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutternomore: [b]All things being equal, it is easier to make a case for 504 eligibility when children are younger, since they are more self-sufficient in general.[/b]

Typo? I think you mean, [i]"All things being equal, it is easier to make a case for 504 eligibility when children are younger, since they are [b]less[/b] self-sufficient in general."[/i]

On May 17, 2005

You know I guess I "shopped" for the district with a full-time nurse, fast response time too. I wasn't happy with how they handled the peanut allergy this year, but I wasn't particularly upset over it either. It was there lack of contact prior to school's start (kindergarten) that bothered me. This thread has motivated to contact a few other mothers with PA kids to see if we could approach together to get the district to initiate a 504 plan. I forgot how nervous I'm going to be next year sending her there for lunch (full day now). She's also going to have a new teacher who might not be as amenable. I do think it's smart, but, even after all this time and reading, I am still afraid to "rock the boat." Thanks, Doreen

On May 18, 2005

Doreen,

My one caution in contacting other parents with PA kids is that sometimes, that effort can be like herding cats.

You've probably seen some of the historical posts from others that speak to the issues of having different comfort zones or different levels of understanding re:PA, and the challenge that it can present when you're trying to advocate for [i]your child[/i]. Not saying you shouldn't make contact - it's just that you want to be cautious to prevent the approaches/attitudes of other PA parents from somehow derailing your efforts....

In our school, we've seen two different situations. During original 504 plan development, the school constantly threw back in our face that other PA kids didn't have the kind of accommodations that were were asking for. We politely reminded the school that we were there to lay out the individualized accommodations for [i]our child[/i], so we had to keep them on topic. Also, there has been another family at our school that rides our coattails every year. They make no effort to institute any 504 activity (there are just very low key about it - in fact child doesn't even wear a medical bracelet [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img], but they at least have enough common sense to request that their child be placed in the same class as DS...

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited May 18, 2005).]

On May 18, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by doreen: [b]I wasn't happy with how they handled the peanut allergy this year, but I wasn't particularly upset over it either. It was there lack of contact prior to school's start (kindergarten) that bothered me. This thread has motivated to contact a few other mothers with PA kids to see if we could approach together to get the district to initiate a 504 plan. I forgot how nervous I'm going to be next year sending her there for lunch (full day now). She's also going to have a new teacher who might not be as amenable. I do think it's smart, but, even after all this time and reading, I am still afraid to "rock the boat." Thanks, Doreen[/b]

Doreen, I can relate. When we were grappling with our school initially, there was a lot of tension in our house and spirited discussion w/DW over whether we were pushing too hard; were we rocking the boat too much...In the end, I looked at DS and realized that he was totally depending on us to do what we had to do to keep him safe.

I've probably beaten this quote to death, but I've often quoted Jack Welsh (former CEO of General Electric) on this board who said [b]"Control your destiny...or someone else will"[/b]. I have found that with the knowledge of 504, it is very empowering. I certainly wish to maintain a positive relationship with my school to the extent possible, but at the end of the day, DS and his safety comes first...

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited May 18, 2005).]

On May 18, 2005

I second Nutternomore's thoughts on contacting the other parents of students with PA.

My viewpoint (especially in what I've seen and my experiences in dealing with other parents) is that it will likely hurt your cause.

Excellent quote, Nutternomore. One in which I firmly believe in!

On May 18, 2005

Doreen,

Your concept of 'power in numbers' is a really good one, and I agree w/ Nutternomore and ryan's mom yet again.

Quote:

Originally posted by doreen: [b]This thread has motivated to contact a few other mothers with PA kids to see if we could approach together to get the district to initiate a 504 plan. [/b]

[b]Myth # 15: Getting all the PA families together and approaching the School District as one collective will be more effective. There is power in numbers. [/b]

Risk-Benefit analysis: This [i]could[/i] work, but it's [b]very risky [/b]because there will be disagreement on accommodations (and thus whether or not 504 is appropriate). Personally, I never want to be in the situation where I am or feel like I am negotiating with other parents. [i]That social thing.[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

We have hosted a picnic for 3 years... actually a picnic twice at a nearby park and then another family hosted a Halloween party.... for all the PA kids and their families in our school district. Our goal is 1.) for Mariah to meet other kids in the District (they will all eventually go to the same Middle School), 2.) "chit chat" socially with these parents.

There is an enormous range in how these parents approach their child's situation. I met a mom (from a different Elementary school in our district) who looks at things very similarly as DH and I do, and we've helped one another. But with that one exception, I go [i]out of my way [/i]to promote the idea that 'we all have different comfort zones' [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] and the general concept of respecting and supporting one another. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

We like having "social gatherings" with other PA families in our School District. But we never wanted it to be more than that, and I think, in retrospect, this was a very good judgment. [i]I want them to say 'good things' about me because I support them... no controversial statements.[/i] (I save that for the School District administrators. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] )

The last thing you want for this to become a divisive issue within your school district's community of PA/FA families. This could very easily become a polarizing issue, and how would that help your situation/goals?

Per Myth #7 ....Originally posted by Gail W: [i]"I felt very frightened that there was no one who would do this for me."[/i]

You might find another family or two that will support you. I completely understand that it's a scary prospect to realize that this is something that you probably have to do all on your own. You can do it, Doreen. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 18, 2005).]

On May 18, 2005

I'm sorry, but I'm still confused. What is a 504 plan, really, in plain language? I've read lots of posts on this, but I need a beginner's explanation. My PA DD is starting school this fall.

On May 18, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by bethc: [b]What is a 504 plan, really, in plain language? ... I need a beginner's explanation. [/b]

Anyone else out there want to take a crack at this?

On May 18, 2005

Here's a start: A '504 plan' is a document that you (+ your doctor) and the school create together. It details the accommodations that the school will make to ensure your child's access to the learning environment.

From: [url="http://www.504idea.org/504resources.html"]http://www.504idea.org/504resources.html[/url]

[i]"A LITTLE HISTORY

A. The Rehabilitation Act of 1973 In 1973 when the Rehabilitation Act was passed, little was being done on a federal level to encourage participation and equal access to federally funded programs by the disabled. While largely geared toward providing job opportunities and training to disabled adults, the Act also addressed, though very discreetly, the failure of the public schools to educate disabled students. The single paragraph we now refer to as

On May 18, 2005

Beth C I will tell you my view of it and I hope it is correct. Simply put it is like an action plan for the school that is backed up by law. The plan is written not as a suggestion of what a school should do but this is what you will do by law to keep my child safe and you will do it because of section 504 in the Americans with Disabilites act. I think the first step is a letter from your allergist. I made an appointment for a "check up" and had the letter very simply typed out in the wording I needed and he put it on his letterhead and signed it. This way it was left to me to word it and less work for the Dr to do. Do start now. I moved in august, had my very first meeting in January and have been all over them to get into this before the end of the year and am having my next meeting the day after the last day of school. Hopefully I will be done before he starts 2nd grade.

On May 18, 2005

Most importantly, it is a LEGAL document.

On May 18, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]Most importantly, it is a LEGAL document.[/b]

FYI, an IHP is a signed, legally binding document as well. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Our IHP is signed by 4 staff: teacher, counselor, principal, and school nurse. And like the 504 Plan, our IHP was created collectively with input from our DD's allergist.

The difference is that an IHP and a 504 plan are each bound to [i]different[/i] laws, and therefore have different (legal) accountability.

An IHP is usually administered by the School Nurse, who is legally bound to her State Nurse Practice Acts (State laws that she legally must follow, licensing accountability, professional standards, etc.). In general, an IHP tends to look at PA as a health need from a medical perspective.

A 504 Plan is legally binding to a different law, the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (Section 504). This law addresses discrimination by ensuring a students' access to the learning environment. In general, a 504 plan addresses the aspects of "access" and "rights" in a "Least Restrictive (learning) Environment" (LRE).

For example, go here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001858.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001858.html[/url]

...the School Nurse realizes that Mariah would be exposed to peanut butter on the bus, that this is a health and safety issue, so she looks at it from a medical (for lack of better words) "isolation" or "exposure" perspective: [i]Mariah shouldn't be on the bus because she wouldn't be safe exposed to peanut butter.[/i]

...but 504 looks at the field trip from an "access" perspective, that Mariah must participate like her "non-disabled peers" in the "least restrictive environment". Riding in a car separated from her non-disabled peers is a violation of "LRE". [i]Solution: no peanut butter on the bus for Mariah to access the learning environment. [/i]

Does that make sense?

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 18, 2005).]

On May 18, 2005

Gail Gail Gail,man Thank you! I am in your shoes right now.Field trip tomorrow,snacks was a issue,I look forward to going back to posting as soon as I can.

Thank you for putting it into [b]Black + white.[/b] The paragraphs below make a lot of since to me [b] now [/b],I see this...

...the School Nurse realizes that Mariah would be exposed to peanut butter on the bus, that this is a health and safety issue, so she looks at it from a medical (for lack of better words) "isolation" or "exposure" perspective: Mariah shouldn't be on the bus because she wouldn't be safe exposed to peanut butter.

...but 504 looks at the field trip from an "access" perspective, that Mariah must participate like her "non-disabled peers" in the "least restrictive environment". Riding in a car separated from her non-disabled peers is a violation of "LRE". Solution: no peanut butter on the bus for Mariah to access the learning environment.

Does that make sense? [b]Yes as I jump for joy!!!! [/b]

Key Words...."isolation" or "exposure" Versus........"access"

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On May 18, 2005

Hi Synthia [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Some accommodations in our IHP addressed 'access' too. For example, in Mariah's IHP it stated that her classroom was "food free" to reduce exposure... and it was very successful. (This year we adjusted that and students were allowed to bring in a snack limited to fresh fruits and veggies. )

But it's the other, more social aspects where 504 seems to come into play. Do you remember this situation when Mariah's PF cafeteria table was different, [i]smaller[/i] thereby limited who she could sit with?

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/004077.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/004077.html[/url]

I posted there:

[i]QUESTION: how would you "feel" if ...[an allergic] reaction caused great bodily harm to your daughter?

MY RESPONSE: I would feel the haunting pain that I placed my dd in a situation that "harmed" her.

However, what I hope to convey so that you understand is that I already feel that pain now... for having placed her in a situation all last year that caused her great "psychological harm". "Harm" that she is angry and resentful for, "harm" that still causes her to cry in bed some nights, "harm" to her self-confidence, that has affected her relationships with classmates, that she now sees PA defining more of her identity than she wants because of the social implications that resulted for her, "harm" that may (on some level) be affecting her learning. These impacts are harmful as well, and I am not certain at this point in time how or if they will heal. I do not know how to measure or define their impact except that I know, as her mother, that they hurt her. They hurt her deeply. Are these hurts (i.e. "harms") not as serious or significant as the physical allergy symptoms or manifestations?

I see the "harm" on both ends of the spectrum. Certainly for the "bodily" harm that you ask about. But... am I not equally accountable for the harm that I allowed the school to impose on her last year under the assumption that is kept her "safe"? Is it not my burden to be accountable for any pyschological harm as well as bodily harm? [/i] ----------------------------------------------

That cafeteria experience is very much like the recent proposed 'segregation' or 'isolation' of Mariah driving in a car to the field trip instead of taking the bus with all the other kids. In both cases, the School Nurse tends to "err on the side of caution" (hi MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] ) by having a PF table to reduce exposure. That's good, except her table was smaller and created social stigma. If Mariah had 504 protection when this occurred, I would have been able to show the school that Mariah did not have the same "access" as her non-disabled peers.

But instead, we put Mariah through the medical model and additional medical testing: the "touch challenge'' in the above link. We did that because we were using the IHP medical model, and we needed medical "proof" that she could sit at the regular table.

Had I looked at her situation using a 504 lens, the medical testing wasn't really relevant regarding her disability. According to the law under 504, the school must provide Mariah with [i]"related aids and services that are designed to meet individual educational needs of handicapped persons [b]as adequately as the needs of nonhandicapped persons[/b] are met..."[/i] I would have argued (correctly, I believe) that Mariah's PF table needed to be exactly like all the other cafeteria tables....

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 19, 2005).]

On May 19, 2005

Hi Gail I feel your pain and your dd's pain (and I share that pain) and it should not be this way.This thread has taught me a lot ,and it helps me understand where they are comming from.

Thanks again

You gotta love this site!!!!!

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On May 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]In general, a 504 plan addresses the aspects of "access" and "rights" in a "Least Restrictive (learning) Environment" (LRE).

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 18, 2005).][/b]

To expand upon this slightly, Section 504 is civil rights legislation. The goal here in the language of the law is free appropriate public education (FAPE) in a least restrictive environment (LRE). The accommodations level the playing field by ensuring access to what a child's non-disabled peers access...

On May 19, 2005

I love Gail W's description about looking at situations through different lenses. Using that same approach, here's another example.

Looking at lunchtime - let's say that a child returns to his classroom to eat alone, while the rest of his class goes to eat in the cafeteria. Looking at this through an IHP lens, this can be sufficient. It certainly reduces the risk of having a reaction.

Now, look at the language in Section 504.

[i]104.37 Nonacademic services.

(a) General. (1) A recipient to which this subpart applies shall provide non‑academic and extracurricular services and activities in such manner as is necessary to afford handicapped students an equal opportunity for participation in such services and activities. [/i]

The accommodation doesn't meet the goal of FAPE in an LRE. The child is losing out on the opportunity to develop social interaction skills that are part of the school experience (developed during lunchtime). Although this is [i]non-academic[/i], it nevertheless is an important element of the school experience.

We were very concerned about social isolation should DS be put at a peanut-free table and only allowed to have 1-2 friends join him, at this young age where he is just starting to make friends.

In my case, our accommodation is that DS's entire table is Peanut and Tree Nut Free (his entire class sits at one long table). DS is free to sit in [b]any[/b] seat at the table (least restrictive environment).

As he gets older, this will probably be re-visited. Classes no longer have to sit together, so at that point, having a Peanut Free table with select friends joining him isn't discriminatory compared to what his peers would be doing. Of course, the possibility of the Peanut Table approach (people consuming peanut products eat at a special table) will also be considered....

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited May 19, 2005).]

On May 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutternomore: [b]The accommodations level the playing field by ensuring access to what a child's non-disabled peers access... [/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Nicely said.

On May 19, 2005

Don't get me wrong, I'm a [b]huge [/b] supporter of full-time of School Nurses. So much so that we sold our house and moved into a school district that had them.

But over the 6 years of elementary school, it was our experience that an IHP under that administration of a full-time RN [i]was not enough.[/i]

[b]Myth #16: A 504 plan is not necessary if you have an IHP administered by a full-time School Nurse. [/b]

Our IHP administered by a fabulous full time RN fell short for our daughter.

On May 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]Don't get me wrong, I'm a [b]huge [/b] supporter of full-time of School Nurses. So much so that we sold our house and moved into a school district that had them.

But over the 6 years of elementary school, it was our experience that an IHP under that administration of a full-time RN [i]was not enough.[/i]

[/b]

Would you say a multidisciplinary approach potentiates each discipline? Each area of expertise? That [i]several lenses converging on the same area allows for a much clearer view?[/i]

[b]A bigger picture[/b]? A unique approach?

On May 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] Would you say a multidisciplinary approach potentiates each discipline? Each area of expertise? That [i]several lenses converging on the same area allows for a much clearer view?[/i]

[b]A bigger picture[/b]? A unique approach?

[/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Yes, yes, yes, yes and [b][i]YES![/b][/i]

Have I told you lately how much I appreciate your effort to put forward so many fine questions?

On May 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] Have I told you lately how much I appreciate your effort to put forward so many fine questions? [/b]

Have I told both you and Nutternomore how eagerly I look forward to discussions such as these? *To me* it's about PA [i]and more[/i]. I hang on every word.

Honestly? I'm always somewhat hesitant to mention names specifically since there are so many jewels here at Pa.com. Everyone sparkles. I don't say it very often, since I get a little queesy gushing. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] It's like Pa.com is in it's [i]glory years[/i]. Talk about [i]paving the way[/i]. Do your best. Savor it. Look back with no regrets.

On May 19, 2005

Our principal is the 504 coordinator for our school. I don't think we'll be able to get any further accomodations under a 504 than we're getting already.

On May 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by solarflare: [b]Our principal is the 504 coordinator for our school. I don't think we'll be able to get any further accomodations under a 504 than we're getting already.[/b]

As I think you know, we had to go around that barrier and engage responsible parties at the District level in order to get an appropriate 504 in place.

All Districts need to articulate the steps involved should you seek due process. The 504 School coordinator is [b]not[/b] the final word...in your case, you would probably escalate to the Director of Special Services at your district. Preparation is the key in heading down that path....

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited May 19, 2005).]

On May 19, 2005

Agreeing with Nutternomore. One would think the 504 coordinator would be the Director of Special Ed. That would make sense. But this seems to be the exception rather than the norm.

Just because your principal is the 504 coordinator doesn't mean he/she knows anything about the law regarding 504's.

This was probably especially evident to me when I was a high school teacher. Our principal was an absolutely wonderful guy who I'm sure knew nothing about 504's. Except to say that he would refer you to the Dir. of Spec. Ed., who knew almost everything on this topic.

[This message has been edited by ryan's mom (edited May 19, 2005).]

On May 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutternomore: [b] As I think you know, we had to go around that barrier and engage responsible parties at the District level in order to get an appropriate 504 in place. [/b]

Same here. We directed our request to the Assistant Superintendent who has the title "Director of Student Instructional Resources".

On May 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutternomore: [b]The goal ...in the language of the law is free appropriate public education (FAPE) in a least restrictive environment (LRE). The accommodations level the playing field by ensuring access to what a child's non-disabled peers access... [/b]

This is from correspondence that I received from the Office for Civil Rights:

"Related services are provided to qualified students with disabilities who require such services to have access to a recipient school's education program. If a qualified disabled student requires a related service, as reflected in the student

On May 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutternomore: [b] To expand upon this slightly, Section 504 is civil rights legislation. The goal here in the language of the law is free appropriate public education (FAPE) in a least restrictive environment (LRE). The accommodations level the playing field by ensuring access to what a child's non-disabled peers access... [/b]

Nutternomore: Thank you expanding this

I am going to try this again lost post.

Maybe if my angle had a 504 she might not have had several reactions.

Maybe if my angel had a 504 she would not have been pulled from PE for fear of...

Maybe if my angel had a 504 she would not have been denied "access" to the playground!

Just maybe my angel would have loved to attend school.

and maybe if she had a 504 the school staff could have relaxed just a little and let the children be children.

the law is free appropriate public education (FAPE) in a least restrictive environment (LRE).

[b]Key words[/b] free appropriate public education (FAPE)

in a least restrictive environment (LRE).

non-disabled peers access...

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On May 20, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by synthia: [b]Key words[/b] free appropriate public education (FAPE)

in a least restrictive environment (LRE).

non-disabled peers access

"equal access" "accessible"

synthia, do you have internet access to your school district's School Board policies? See if your school district has a policy called something like, "NonDiscrimination on the basis of Disability". (Just an idea [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] )

On May 20, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] "equal access" "accessible"

synthia, do you have internet access to your school district's School Board policies? See if your school district has a policy called something like, "NonDiscrimination on the basis of Disability". (Just an idea [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] )

[/b]

ahhhh Yes and I see it,but I really don't think they understands how it applies to "PA"(Peanut Anaphylaxis),but I do see some hope for my angel. Hummm I see a lot of buts in there,here is another,but it is doable and CAN have a positive out come[b]for ALL parties involved[/b]if and this is a big if we all keep a open mind,and allways keep in mind [b]why[/b] we are doing this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I have to be the one to take the heat,verbal assults,feelings of resentment,looked upon as a trouble maker then so be it. If I have to be the only one to stand up and have my voice heard,for the life of a child weather it be mine, yours or the guy across the streets child I will

THIS HAS TO STOP

I feel I have just begun this journey.This journey has sparked something in me I have not seen in a very long time [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] "What a long, strange trip it's been" [Gerry Garcia] Where is AnnaMarie!!!

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On May 20, 2005

Sorry double post

[This message has been edited by synthia (edited July 26, 2005).]

On May 20, 2005

[b]Myth #17: No matter what I do, my child is bound to be harassed/bullied by others due to his/her PA.[/b]

Although bullying and harassment is an on-going issue in the school system, and many schools have adopted anti-bullying provisions in general, you have additional protections if you have instituted a 504 plan for your child.

[i]Harassment based upon disability is not only wrong, but it's illegal.[/i]

Important info on this topic exists at the Dept. of Education, Office of Civil Rights website.

[url="http://www.ed.gov/PressReleases/07-2000/0726_2.html"]http://www.ed.gov/PressReleases/07-2000/0726_2.html[/url]

This press release was issued back in 2000. You'll see that [b]the accompanying letter (linked from the press release) was sent to every school from the government on this subject.[/b]

So, if anyone here is ever in a situation where a school isn't acting forcefully, then give them a copy of this letter to refresh their memories re:their legal obligation.

As I mentioned abouve, many schools have general anti-bullying rules anyway. Tip: we put a statement in DS's 504 plan that indicated that if he reported any situations of bullying/harassment, the school would handle in accordance with its existing policy (just another way to keep the issue in front of them)...

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited May 23, 2005).]

On May 20, 2005

My problem is that the Special Services coordinator (who I know from having to make arrangements for my nka son's IEP for a speech delay) told me that I need to talk to the principal first, and getting any absolutes out of the principal is like slamming my head against the wall. It really is annoying.

On May 20, 2005

Getting clearer! Thank you for taking the time to clarify this!

On May 21, 2005

You don't mind if I re-number this, do you?

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutternomore: [b]Myth #17: No matter what I do, my child is bound to be harassed/bullied by others due to his/her PA.[/b]

Tip: we put a statement in DS's 504 plan that indicated that if he reported any situations of bullying/harassment, the school would handle in accordance with its existing policy (just another way to keep the issue in front of them)...

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Thank you.

On May 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by solarflare: [b]... I need to talk to the principal first, and getting any absolutes out of the principal is like slamming my head against the wall. [/b]

Completely relate. My 'Coach' advised my to "stop talking" to them. When they said something stupid that I should reply, "That's very interesting. Would you please send what you just stated to me [i]in writing[/i]?"

My school staff were actually polite when they said stupid things like: "we're already doing everything that we can", "a 504 won't provide any added benefit for Mariah", "[i]learning [/i]must be affected in order for Mariah to meet the criteria for a 504 designation", "Mariah already had 504 protection because of her LD", "Mariah's PA doesn't 'significantly limit' her access to the learning environment so she doesn't qualify", "her allergist states here in this letter that in Mariah's contact challenge her breathing was affected in her 'upper airway' only" .... I could go on and on.

My relationship with school staff was based on trust, respect, and cooperation. It was [i]personal[/i]. We made the mistake of forging a very personal relationship with staff as the [i]basis[/i] to keep Mariah safe. That was a problem because the staff believed that the safeguards that they were providing Mariah were due to their [i]willingness[/i] to be trustworthy, respectful and cooperative. This is false.

It's great to have mutual trust/respect/cooperation, and I appreciate this motivation, but the fact of the matter is that the reason that they are providing safeguards for my child is because she is entitled to them, not because they are the nice people that they are. She is entitled to them because, under the law, she meets the criteria of a Section 504 Designation.

I heard all kinds of incorrect statements from staff about the law. [i]Major brick wall. [/i] In fact, I'd bet I [i]offended[/i] their sensibilities by asking for the Designation after they'd already clearly and respectfully explained to me that Mariah didn't qualify and that it wasn't needed. I could [i]feel [/i] the trust/respect/cooperation wane.... after all we'd been through together, after all they'd already done for my daughter. I can see them shaking their head in utter disbelief.

Ummm... after 6 years of working together, our personal relationship made it *tougher*. I think I should have insisted on the correct accountability (Section 504) from the beginning (preK) and [i]then[/i] forge all that wonderful trust/respect/cooperation that is so important between parent and school relationship. Horse/cart.

It wasn't until I put the request *in writing* and started applying my "parental rights" to apply 504 law that they began to understand how Section 504 protects Mariah.

Quote:

Originally posted by solarflare: [b]... I need to talk to the principal first, and getting any absolutes out of the principal is like slamming my head against the wall. [/b]

Chain-of-command is important in the school system culture. Start with the principal. But it doesn't have to end there.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 21, 2005).]

On May 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] My relationship with school staff was based on trust, respect, and cooperation. It was personal . We made the mistake of forging a very personal relationship with staff as the basis to keep Mariah safe. That was a problem because the staff believed that the safeguards that they were providing Mariah were due to their willingness to be trustworthy, respectful and cooperative. This is a false.

It's great to have mutual trust/respect/cooperation, and I appreciate this motivation, but the fact of the matter is that the reason that they are providing safeguards for my child is because she is entitled to them, not because they are the nice people that they are. She is entitled to them because, under the law, she meets the criteria of a Section 504 Designation.

[/b]

I had the pleasure of speaking with an older Indian gentleman at a class picinic yesterday. (Grandfather of one of the children in our class). He shared quite a few cultural philosophies with me during what I consider to be a priceless conversation. Right time, right place. Not surprisingly, [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img], I found those philosophies rather [i]universal[/i] in my experience. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

One of them being: "The most [b]base[/b] (lowest) form of a [i]charitable act[/i] is doing what you are [i]required to do[/i]. In other words, not doing the act would be [i]immoral, unconscionable, [b]wrong[/b][/i].

In other words, as my [i]husband[/i] likes to say:

*******************************************

"What are you looking for me to say?:

[b]Thanks for [i]doing your job[/i][/b]?"

*******************************************

Amazing cultural similiarities. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 21, 2005).]

On May 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] Ummm... after 6 years of working together, our personal relationship made it *tougher*. I think I should have insisted on the correct accountability (Section 504) from the beginning (preK) and then forge all that wonderful trust/respect/cooperation that is so important between parent and school relationship. Horse/cart.

[/b]

Where logic and for lack of a better description, [i]business[/i] affairs are concerned, that whole social scene really gets in the way?

On May 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] ... that whole social scene really gets in the way?[/b]

Yes, it made it more difficult. Definitely. The cart was before the horse, and so it was bound to fail, no matter how much *good faith*.

But now that's corrected. The horse (504) is pulling the cart as it should. I think they will respect me more for that. (I respect myself more for it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] )

And I think they will be just as relieved, liberated, as I am. Having the appropriate accountability (504) will better foster what we both desire: a parent/school relationship of trust/respect/cooperation.

On May 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] Yes, it made it more difficult. Definitely. The cart was before the horse, and so it was bound to fail, no matter how much *good faith*.

[/b]

I can't have *good faith* unless people demonstrate to me they're [b]doing their job[/b]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[i]bringing back that marriage analogy[/i]:

[b]Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?[/b]

On May 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] I can't have *good faith* unless people demonstrate to me they're [b]doing their job[/b]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[/b]

.............[i]earn[/i] my [b]good faith[/b].

Public servants paid with tax dollars I [i]earned[/i].

No popularity contests, no lunch dates. Business. If hubby and I happen to really mesh with such persons, then.............*Bonus*.

On May 21, 2005

I've had downright [i]ornery[/i] patients. Some even threaten to kill me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] Very creatively, even.

Didn't affect my performance of [i]duty[/i] in the least. Not for a second.

.......[i]business.[/i]

On May 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: I can't have *good faith* unless people demonstrate to me they're doing their job.

I know. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: "What are you looking for me to say?:

[b]Thanks for [i]doing your job[/i]?"[/b]

I know. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: Didn't affect my performance of duty in the least. Not for a second.

I know. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]

I'm still having a very hard time with all this. It's so disappointing. Regarding "duty" ...

...from here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001824.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001824.html[/url]

[i]But mostly I feel sad disappointment right now. I tried to fully "embrace my role as teacher" to the School District... to show them how to apply the 504 law. And, if receiving the Designation is the criteria, then I succeeded.

But I still haven't fully accepted my parental role as the SD's teacher without feeling angry and bitter. Angry because of the administration's resistance to learn and give it the attention that it deserves. Bitter that it took so much out of me and away from my life, my family. This became a power struggle, parent verses administration, and it should not have.

I get it philosophically, that my husband and I have the [b]duty[/b] to do whatever it takes, but it shouldn't have to be this way. I'm relieved to have the designation. But I'm profoundly disappointed about the process. There is something wrong here.[/i]

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 21, 2005).]

On May 21, 2005

I believe one of my personal fave quotes originated from the mouth of former President Ronald Reagan: "Trust, but verify."

I believe this applies to the 504 concept.

On May 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]"Trust, but verify."[/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On May 22, 2005

Recap:

Myth #1: Requesting a Section 504 will label me as a "difficult parent" and the School District won't want to work with me.

Myth #2: It is better if the school staff find me to be cooperative and likeable. It's better to avoid conflict with staff because if the staff doesn't like me, my child may not be treated as well by the staff.

Myth #3: My School (School District) is cooperating with me and I have the accommodations that I want. A 504 is not necessary.

Myth #4: Things have been going great. Why rock the boat with a 504 request?

Myth #5: If a School District is really resistant to a 504 Designation, the fight might not be worth it.

Myth #6: School Districts are familiar with Section 504. My School District has an administrator who is the District's '504 Compliance Officer'. This person knows all about how Section 504 works, handles complaints in the school district about 504 violations, and will help me regarding Section 504 for my child with food allergies.

Myth #7: There are lots of experts who will help you with obtaining a Section 504 Designation for your child.

Myth #8 - 504 plans are only for those who want significant risk reduction accommodations, like having the school go peanut-free. Also, they are a static document that once signed, is cast in stone.

Myth #9: My school has made some accommodations already and says that they have already provided all the accommodations that they can. So a 504 plan won't provide any added benefit for my child because my school has already made all the "reasonable accommodations" a 504 plan would require them to do anyway.

Myth #10: My school district and community are educated, progressive, and wealthy. Therefore, I will not need IDEA or 504 protection. They will know what to do, do it with compassion and out of moral/ethical obligation. They probably are very familiar with needs such as ours and if they haven't already, will set a precedent for other institutions.

Myth #11: The school my child attends is a private school, and therefore does not need to adhere to ADA legislation.

Myth #12: A private school, particularly one of my family's faith, or one that is affluent, is always a better choice for a child with disabilities or special needs. They will be more flexible and compassionate. They will try harder to accommodate. They have values.

Myth #13: School will work as promptly as possible to order to accelerate the 504 plan process.

Myth #14: A 504 plan is a tactical tool I need to use to help my child be safe this year.

Myth # 15: Getting all the PA families together and approaching the School District as one collective will be more effective. There is power in numbers.

Myth #16: A 504 plan is not necessary if you have an IHP administered by a full-time School Nurse.

Myth #17: No matter what I do, my child is bound to be harassed/bullied by others due to his/her PA.

On May 23, 2005

bump!!!!!!!! Thank you!

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On May 23, 2005

IMO, this thread should be bumped every two weeks. It is too important to miss for (US specific) newbies or parents planning their child's entry into public school.

On May 27, 2005

After reading another thread, I just realized this is probably Myth #18.

Myth #18: Doctors are knowledgeable about 504 law, and will be able to create one for you based on the needs of your child.

From my experience, doctors are good with the medical stuff, NOT the legal stuff. I do believe that up until I handed him our draft 504, he had never seen one before, nor did he have any clue what one was. But I can tell you the office has called me to ask if they can use mine as an example.

On May 27, 2005

ryan's mom,

I think that they fall into two camps.

Camp 1) Doctors like Gail W's - who either are already knowledgeable, or willing to become so rapidly, and really advocate for their patients

Camp 2) Not particularly knowledgeable or pretend they aren't. As I stated in another post awhile back, unfortunately, some doctors are well aware of the controversy associated with their recommendations - they consciously describe the "what", but leave the "how" (i.e. implementation) up to the 504 team to handle. For others, they may not consciously give sufficient thought to all the considerations of the school environment (e.g. approach used by teacher in classroom, physical layout of school and degree of shared usage of equipment, supplies, etc.)

In any event, that is where we, as educated advocates, influence the doctor up front (to think through those considerations), as well as to advocate via the 504 process.

On May 27, 2005

I haven't been here in a while. Nutternomore, thanks so much for your comments. I do usually think that about other parents, but I also think two parents I am thinking of might be willing to approach the school too. There are at least two others that I would not consider approaching.

GailW, "you can do it Doreen" almost made me cry. It's like I'm a little kid and I'm paralyzed because I'm scared to death. It's ridiculous. The other thing is like you said I have sort of mixed up the horse and cart thing and now that she has already finished kindergarten I feel like I would be betraying them in some way? I guess I fear it would show some sort of distrust. You know I did trust all last summer that they would contact me about a food allergy meeting, and they never did, so I guess it is about it a little bit. I also guess I realize that I have to do it alone -- no family help from DH either you know.

The other thing is my daughter's allergist is Dr. Rosen, who is on the FAAN board. I don't believe I'm confident in him signing off on many things that I might feel necessary -- such as a peanut-free classroom. I also happen to believe she is allergic to tree nuts now but hopefully he'll be okay with avoiding those because of cross-contamination. I don't know -- maybe I'm just thinking of excuses not to do it. I've also got so much on my plate. Well, hopefully by the next time I've posted I will have started before I can't reach them in the summer.

I always thought 504 was the right thing to do -- I guess I'm a people pleaser (sucker) at heart. Also, I think I wanted to trust people again being her first preschool experience was so bad and it is also that experience that doesn't want me to "rock the boat." Another thing is I'm still in denial. I always believed in my heart she would outgrow this for some reason.

Thanks again.

On May 28, 2005

Hang in there doreen. ((((hugs))))

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On May 28, 2005

You can do it, doreen. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Definitely. I, too, very much feel like "David" against the "Goliath" School District. It is a lonely and frightening feeling. I completely relate to feeling like a child. My School District treated me like a child, so it's no wonder...

I tried to intentionally put this thread forward in a provocative way, by making claims about "myths". I hope it's understand that I started this thread as a cathartic release of the anger and frustration I have toward my School District right now. I needed to create this thread for myself.... to reinforce the decision that I made, and to share my experience so that I might get the good feeling from possibly helping someone else.

I wanted to assert "the right" thing to do in an authoritarian, self righteous proclamation because, I believe, this is exactly how my School District put out their (sometimes false) claims about 504s. My School District was very [i]patronizing.[/i] They cloaked their "because I said so" mentality and successfully maintained an insufficient status quo by using the weight and power of their Goliath bureaucracy.

This is what I want for my daughter: I envision a model where the School Nurse advocates for my DD's medical needs (from a 'medical model' perspective), and where the 504 coordinator advocates for DD's normalcy needs (from a 'least restrictive environment' model). I understand that these two perspectives can be in conflict, the old "safety vs. normalcy" spectrum that we, as parents, struggle with daily. But this is a necessary conversation with members of the school staff who come to the table with these different perspectives.

I thought for sure that I'd get some slamming comments here. I deserve them. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I thought for sure this would evoke some angry responses, or at least experiences where not having a 504 plan has worked well. I'm sure there are many. Three years go I was a big advocate for IHPs and posted a lot about that here. I still want all the benefits of my full-time RN administering the IHP. But now, as I'm further down the road, I see how an IHP falls short. And I see the [i]need[/i] for a 504 in addition to what an RN provides.

One of the very most positive experiences I take away from this process is that I understand that as a parent I am a powerful player in the school system. Going through this ordeal has changed the way I view myself. I don't mean to be overly dramatic, but I view my role differently. I am now comfortable questioning the SD's assertions because I understand that they are sometimes wrong, and they are accountable to substantiate the assertions they make to me.

My "Coach" helped me practice phrases so that I was comfortable responding to the School District in meetings. I recited my responses to possible false logic from the SD. Over and over I rehearsed phrases like, "I've proved to you how my daughter qualifies for 504. I've provided you with x number of authoritative sources that proves my assertion. You need to prove to me that all of these sources are wrong." I thought about becca, and how practicing techniques to turn the power base around eventually became [b]integrated[/b] into my overall philospy/approach dealing with the school.

You know, I care for my 82 year old parents, and my father still says to me sometimes (grumpy old man expression and voice), [i]"because I say so". [/i] I try to give my father respect and deference as his daughter.

I mistakenly saw the School District as a parent. I made the mistake of deferring my parental rights and my parental responsibilities to them. It wasn't always appropriate and it didn't always serve the best interests of my child. I am my daughter's parent, not the school. [i]I needed to learn that.[/i] I think I am a better parent now, and that my daughter will benefit.

On May 28, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] I, too, very much feel like "David" against the "Goliath" School District. It is a lonely and frightening feeling. I completely relate to feeling like a child. My School District treated me like a child, so it's no wonder...[/b]

At one time, *a* school district treated my husband and myself *differently* as well. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] [i]patronizing.....[/i], self assured, superior, [i]"I know something you don't know (or could understand)"[/i]. As if we were [i]disadvantaged[/i].

We had an extra burden: [i]to show *the potential* both my cubs have[/i]. I can't begin to say how excited both we and the district are about our children's progress and potential. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Apples, trees, and "getting it".

Quote:

[b]I tried to intentionally put this thread forward in a provocative way, by making claims about "myths".[/b]

you've done an excellent job. "Myth Busters" was one of my favorite programs.

Quote:

[b]I hope it's understand that I started this thread as a cathartic release of the anger and frustration I have toward my School District right now. I needed to create this thread for myself.... to reinforce the decision that I made, and to share my experience so that I might get the good feeling from possibly helping someone else.[/b]

[b]YES![/b] I know what you mean.

Quote:

[b]I wanted to assert "the right" thing to do in an authoritarian, self righteous proclamation because, I believe, this is exactly how my School District put out their (sometimes false) claims about 504s. My School District was very [i]patronizing.[/i] They cloaked their "because I said so" mentality and successfully maintained an insufficient status quo by using the weight and power of their Goliath bureaucracy. [/b]

Guilty here.

I've been told it's a very effective (and very temping) way to get one's point across. (or letting folk see themselves the way you do).

I think they call it "Mirroring". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

The world is full of "Goliaths" and bureaucracy. I've had plenty of practice.

[b]

Quote:

This is what I want for my daughter: I envision a model where the School Nurse advocates for my DD's medical needs (from a 'medical model' perspective), and where the 504 coordinator advocates for DD's normalcy needs (from a 'least restrictive environment' model). I understand that these two perspectives can be in conflict, the old "safety vs. normalcy" spectrum that we, as parents, struggle with daily. But this is a necessary conversation with members of the school staff who come to the table with these different perspectives. [/b]

This is called [b]"Balance"[/b]. It's a necessary part of life.

[b]

Quote:

I thought for sure that I'd get some slamming comments here. I deserve them. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I thought for sure this would evoke some angry responses, or at least experiences where not having a 504 plan has worked well. I'm sure there are many. Three years go I was a big advocate for IHPs and posted a lot about that here. I still want all the benefits of my full-time RN administering the IHP. But now, as I'm further down the road, I see how an IHP falls short. And I see the [i]need[/i] for a 504 in addition to what an RN provides.[/b]

I completely understand. I wanted a designation and eligibility under "OHI", because I wanted the school district to understand his need for safety and health were *just* as deserving and eligible as his educational, social, and emotional and other *traditional* school needs. [i]That the needs were [b]equal[/b].[/i] That there was an [i]obligation[/i]. The *same* obligation.

[i]That a *balance* would have to be found[/i]. The perspective [i]changed[/i].

Quote:

[b]One of the very most positive experiences I take away from this process is that I understand that as a parent I am a powerful player in the school system. Going through this ordeal has changed the way I view myself. I don't mean to be overly dramatic, but I view my role differently. I am now comfortable questioning the SD's assertions because I understand that they are sometimes wrong, and they are accountable to substantiate the assertions they make to me. [/b]

AHA! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] And I give them the same respect. I provide rational and [b]substantiate[/b] even the smallest details (common sense stuff) when necessary. It's the only way I know how to be a "team member". To be *equal*. Maybe even [i]an expert[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

A [i]knowledgeable individual[/i]? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Quote:

[b]You know, I care for my 82 year old parents, and my father still says to me sometimes (grumpy old man expression and voice), [i]"because I say so". [/i] I try to give my father respect and deference as his daughter.

[/b]

warm fuzzy feeling. thank you.

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Just describing my own personal, highly individual, and unique situation. Individual Mileage May Vary.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 28, 2005).]

On May 31, 2005

I was always raised to take one at thier word until proven other wise. In our case it as proven other wise,so verbal does not mean a thing.

It is to my understanding that under the IEP the schools will err on the side of safety,IMO that means they will pull the child when safety becomes a issue.Unless you get a OHI and a seperate 504,Check with mommabear!

On the 504 [b]we balance it [/b]and it protects their rights.

I could be understanding this wrong?!Anyone?

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On May 31, 2005

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001877.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001877.html[/url]

On May 31, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by synthia: [b]It is to my understanding that under the IEP the schools will err on the side of safety,IMO that means they will pull the child when safety becomes a issue.Unless you get a OHI and a seperate 504,Check with mommabear!

On the 504 [b]we balance it [/b]and it protects their rights.

I could be understanding this wrong?!Anyone?

[/b]

wrt "OHI":

This has not been [b]my individual experience[/b], maybe it's just me.

quite the contrary, I've found the school district to be [i]obligated[/i] to accommodate under OHI. Least Restrictive Environment thing, the school "pulling" [b]my[/b] child, from whatever, without my consent, maybe not being at the *top* of the options list.

At least not [i]indefinitely[/i]. I mean, once an issue is identified. (documented?)

Even *with* my consent, I think if the law indicated/implied/[i]implicated[/i] other [b]options[/b]/accommodations/action available, documenting my *informed consent* would probably be prudent for *my* district.

I mean, what are *truant officers* anyway? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] I mean, even without IDEA.....

[b]I could be very mistaken, my perception could be wrong[/b]. I could just have dumb luck.

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Just describing my own [b]personal, highly individual, and unique situation[/b]. I could be way off. Individual Mileage May Vary.

On Jun 1, 2005

[b]Myth #19: If a child has an OHI designation, he is not protected under Section 504, and he is not entitled to LRE.[/b]

OHI under IDEA entitles a child to LRE by law. IDEA's main purpose is to ensure Least Restrictive Environment for children with disabilities so that they are integrated fully with their non-disabled peers! Additionally, any child with an OHI designation is automatically covered under Section 504.

In my particular case, Mariah does not have the OHI designation for her PA. That is why we pursued a Section 504 Designation.

On Jun 3, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b][b]Myth #19: If a child has an OHI designation, he is not protected under Section 504, and he is not entitled to LRE.[/b]

OHI under IDEA entitles a child to LRE by law. IDEA's main purpose is to ensure Least Restrictive Environment for children with disabilities so that they are integrated fully with their non-disabled peers! Additionally, any child with an OHI designation is automatically covered under Section 504.

In my particular case, Mariah does not have the OHI designation for her PA. That is why we pursued a Section 504 Designation. [/b]

Same here Gail!! Little V had no OHI, under the IDEA,according to our disitrict OHI is defined different.Go figure.

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Jun 3, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by synthia: [b] Same here Gail!! Little V had no OHI, under the IDEA,according to our disitrict OHI is defined different.Go figure.

[/b]

What defines "OHI", Federal Law or Individual School Districts? Something else?

On Jun 3, 2005

You know mommbear,I ask myself the same ? Don't know [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img]

------------------ Love this site Synthia

[This message has been edited by synthia (edited June 03, 2005).]

On Jun 3, 2005

Gail, Is your daughter permitted to carry her epi-pen in school? If so, is this part of the 504 or IHP or what?

My ds will be entering Intermediate school in the Fall (grades 5/6) and I just spoke with the Asst. Superintendent who thinks he is too young to be "given the responsibility" of carrying his own epi. The intermediate school is a larger, more spread-out school than his elementary school and I do not feel comfortable with the distance from where he may be and the nurse's office where they want the epi kept. I'm considering requesting a 504 if this is how to go about getting permission. Am I on the right track?

TIA, Sue

On Jun 3, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by SueQ: [b]Gail, Is your daughter permitted to carry her epi-pen in school? If so, is this part of the 504 or IHP or what? [/b]

No, not currently, but we're working on it. A new School Board policy is scheduled for a vote next month.

There currently is no law in the state of Missouri that specifically gives children the right to carry their epi-pens. There [i] is [/i]Missouri law that allows for children to carry their [i]meter-dosed asthma inhalers[/i], but nothing that addresses epi-pens.) So, in our state, it is left up to each individual school district to address the issue of students carrying epi-pens. Our School Board has policy that [b]prohibits[/b] children from carry any medication with the one exception of meter-dosed inhalers because state law grants children this specific right.

Soooo.... we brought this to the attention of our School Board. We have requested that school board policy created policy that would allow children to carry life-saving medications such as epi-pens. It is currently in a committee who is word-smithing the language. I think it is on the agenda for June or July.

So Mariah will be allowed to carry her epi-pen next year... or so is the plan. I meet with staff next week to review her IHP and 504 plan. I'm not sure where it will be stated. I'll get back here and answer this question after June 8.

Quote:

Originally posted by SueQ: [b]My ds will be entering Intermediate school in the Fall (grades 5/6) and I just spoke with the Asst. Superintendent who thinks he is too young to be "given the responsibility" of carrying his own epi. The intermediate school is a larger, more spread-out school than his elementary school and I do not feel comfortable with the distance from where he may be and the nurse's office where they want the epi kept. I'm considering requesting a 504 if this is how to go about getting permission. Am I on the right track?[/b]

We are still evaluating now we want to mange this. We want Mariah to carry her epi-pen, but we also want epi-pens to be available throughout the building. The Middle School currently has 5 "trauma kits" strategically located throughout the building. Each trauma kit contains an epi-pen. We think it might be more efficient if "universal procedures" were continued to be used instead of introducing a new and different system whereby the staff would try to retrieve Mariah's epi-pen from her backpack.

But we want one in her backpack also anyway... for after school events, etc.

Our concern isn't that she isn't old enough or responsible enough to carry her epi-pen. Our concern is that if Mariah is having an allergic reaction that she may not be physically capable of administering it to herself. We want an adult trained in LTFAs with immediate access to an epi-pen with Mariah at all times.

Does that make sense?

On Jun 3, 2005

What a switch! At our school, we requested that the teacher carry the epipen. The school wants our daughter (age 6) to carry it. They say she should take responsibility for her treatment. We agreed to let her carry it if her teacher is trained to administer it. Also, there will be backup epipens stored in each room (i.e. classroom, library, etc.) where she will be. Here in California, we have new state law allowing children to carry epipens at school.

On Jun 4, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat: [b]What a switch! At our school, we requested that the teacher carry the epipen.[/b]

Just to clarify, so did we ... at the elementary school grades K - 5.

Our DD is entering Middle School grade 6.

On Jun 4, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] We think it might be more efficient if "universal procedures" were continued to be used instead of introducing a new and different system whereby the staff would try to retrieve Mariah's epi-pen from her backpack.

But we want one in her backpack also anyway... for after school events, etc.

[/b]

Gail - another question: Does Mariah carry her backpack during the day or is it in her locker? My idea was for Sam to wear the epipen clipped to his waist (via epi-belt or such). With that scenario, if the staff is made aware that he *carries epipen* everyone would know where it is at all times.

I live in Pennsylvania, and we are in the same position as your state. Inhalers are permitted, no law about epi. My original question to the Asst. Superintendent was weather the district has a policy and she really didn't answer that... I believe there is no policy other than the blanket "no medications allowed to be carried". We are in very similar situations, as Sam was the 1st one in this district to have a LTFA, or at least the first one whose parents have notified the district of such. However, I know just in his elementary school, there are at least 3 kids in each class after his with PA. I mentioned this to the Asst. Superintendent, suggesting that now would be a good time to start formulating a policy.

If I can not get a policy in place to allow him to carry the epi, I like the idea of the emergency kits at several locations throughout the building and will suggest that. However, as you stated, this won't address the bus (which I've never let him take and now realize I should have worked toward earlier) and after-school activities.

Thank you very much for this thread. I am using it to guide me through this process. After dealing with the school on a friendly casual basis for 5 years, I now feel like I'm starting all over again with this switch to a new building and will need to be formal moving forward.

Sue

On Jun 4, 2005

Sue,

Don't know if this will help or not,When Litle V had a IEP for developmently delay which she no longer qulify for as of age 6 or laungage. We had the teacher carrie 2 epipen in a waist sack.The principial wanted 1- epipen in the lunch room 1- in the pe room 1- in the nurses station

At the start of May or April can't remember which month,anyway we started to allow her to carrie the trainer in her waist sack as a test to see (if any) problems would arise! No problems. In our state Fla.The kids can carrie inhalers. The Epi-pen new laws are being refined we'll see. Good luck! HTH

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Jun 4, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by SueQ: [b] Gail - another question: Does Mariah carry her backpack during the day or is it in her locker? My idea was for Sam to wear the epipen clipped to his waist (via epi-belt or such). With that scenario, if the staff is made aware that he *carries epipen* everyone would know where it is at all times. [/b]

They have lockers, but we've been told that they carry their backpacks throughout the day. During my observations at the Middle School, however, this doesn't always necessarily seem to match what I see.

I would [i]love[/i] for Mariah to clip her epi-pen to herself somehow. We keep coming back to this as a good option, but Mariah absolutely objects. It's a fashion-diva issue [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] and we've just decided its not a battle to take on. At least not now, with the big transition to Middle School. The medic alert bracelet was tough enough: "Geesh mom, why don't I wear a big sign too?" <> LOL: We're trying to make pre-adolescence a tolerable life experience for us all. We've thought about her carrying an epi in her purse, but I guess girls keep the purses in their locker.

Middle School is a whole new beast, isn't it??

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited June 04, 2005).]

On Jun 4, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] this doesn't always necessarily seem to match what I see. [/b]

This jumped out at me,I am sorry to say. DH and my self are very aware people.

"What one may preceive as one wanting to sue is another ones preception of wanting to keep a child safe"!

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Jun 4, 2005

If you are looking for ways to discretely carry an epipen check this out:

[url="http://www.medipouch.com/products.html"]http://www.medipouch.com/products.html[/url]

Here is something we are going to use to store the epipens in the classroom, since the school was worried about possible tampering:

[url="http://www.safetysack.com/index.htm"]http://www.safetysack.com/index.htm[/url]

On Jun 4, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by SueQ: [b]Gail, Is your daughter permitted to carry her epi-pen in school? If so, is this part of the 504 or IHP or what?

My ds will be entering Intermediate school in the Fall (grades 5/6) and I just spoke with the Asst. Superintendent who thinks he is too young to be "given the responsibility" of carrying his own epi. The intermediate school is a larger, more spread-out school than his elementary school and I do not feel comfortable with the distance from where he may be and the nurse's office where they want the epi kept. I'm considering requesting a 504 if this is how to go about getting permission. Am I on the right track?

TIA, Sue[/b]

Sue,

Few things to be aware of: when the time comes, make sure you know whether your state has passed a law allowing DS to carry his Epi; this thread will tell you all about the new Federal law and state law activity [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum23/HTML/000151.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum23/HTML/000151.html[/url]

Re:your concern about where Epi should be kept, you can tackle this via 504. Regardless of whether you choose to institute a 504, though, you'll may find the AAAAI Position Statement #34 useful to support your position that the Epi needs to be near DS (not in the nurse's office)

[url="http://www.aaaai.org/media/resources/academy_statements/position_statements/ps34.asp"]http://www.aaaai.org/media/resources/academy_statements/position_statements/ps34.asp[/url]

Quoting: [i]Epinephrine should be kept in locations that are easily accessible and not in locked cupboards or drawers. All staff members should know these locations. Children old enough to self-administer epinephrine should carry their own kits. For younger children, the epinephrine device should be kept in the classroom and passed from teacher to teacher as the child moves through the school (eg, from classroom to music to PE to lunch).

All students, regardless of whether they are capable of epinephrine self-administration, will still require the help of others because the severity of the reaction may hamper their attempts to inject themselves. Adult supervision is mandatory.[/i]

On Jul 19, 2005

Your email in profile doesnt work? Hi Gail, I have been trying to review your 504 post and get as much info as possible. I wanted to see if I could ask you some questions directly. I have a contuned eligibility meeting tomorrow. I have finally worked out the details of the plan itself to be satisfactory but I want it stamped with the 504 designation. The school has already told me on several occasions that he didnt qualify but would not put it in writing. We have a mediation scheduled for after the meeting if we cannot agree. I have been putting sooooooo much effort in getting the plan and its workings in order that I suddenly do not feel prepared to fight for his designation. I have a letter from his allergist and his pediatrician both using good wording like threatening major life activity and outright saying they review the 504 and believe he qualifies. Neither could attend the meeting because the district always gives me just a few days notice. I would extend it but my husband is demanding that if this is not settled by the first day of school(aug 5th) we will be taking him out of school. That is a topic for another day. If I understand this correctly I am asking for this 504 to put the plan in the lap of the district rather than making it some kind of health issue for the nurse. I want the 504 so that everyone from the super to the janitor knows these are the accomidations and there is no gray area. If you have time, I would really appreciate your input(I hope you are not out of town). How do I express the need for the 504. What legal backing do I have to demand it. I know I can ask for a hearing next, and I would but I would like this to be over now. Thanks.

On Jul 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by qdebbie1: [b]How do I express the need for the 504. [/b]

I wouldn't go down this path. "Need" isn't a qualifying factor, and no where in the law does it state that you must prove "need". IMO, this is an attempt to sidetrack you. The reason that you are requesting 504 Designation for your child is because he qualifies. Period.

A child qualifies for a 504 Designation based on clear criteria stated in the 504 law.

Line up your data (physician letter, USDA Guidelines, 504 law, state DOE guidelines, AAFA article, AAAAI guidlines, etc.) with pertinent statements highlighted and state "I've provided you with X number of authoritative sources proving to you that my child child qualifies for a 504 Designation. You must prove to me that he does not."

I sent you an e-mail.

On Jul 19, 2005

Debbie,

Here is what I consider to be the most important documentation:

[b]1. Federal sources (3):[/b] a. Title 34 Section 504 of the Rehabillitation Act of 1973 (Title 34, Subtitle B, Chapter 1, part 104) in entirety. Source: U.S. Department of Education and the Office for Civil Rights, [url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#S3"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#S3[/url] Highlight sections on page 4.

b. Office for Civil Rights statement recognizing allergy as a "hidden disability". Source: U.S. Department of Education, [url="http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/hq5269.html"]www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/hq5269.html[/url] Highlight the entire paragraph beginning at the bottom of the first page that begins, "The key factor in determining whether or not..." and underline the ending where it states "breathing".

c. U.S.D.A. handbook, "Accommodating Children with Special Dietary Needs in the School Nutrition Programs". Source: U.S. Department of Agriculture in conjunction with the U.S. Department of Justice. [url="http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/Guidance/default.htm"]http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/Guidance/default.htm[/url] Highlight the paragraph on page 5 called, "In Cases of Food Allergy" where it states,[i]"...when in the licensed physician's assessment, food allergies may result in severe, life-threatening (anaphylactic) reactions, the child's condition would meet the definition of "disability"..."[/i] Also highlight the section on page 28 regarding "segregating children with disabilities...".

[b]2. State sources (2):[/b] (Try to find comparable documents for your state.) a. Missouri Department of Elementary and Secondary Education's manual, "STUDENT ACCESS, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973", (about 30 pages) and highlighted sections stating that "chronic asthma and severe allergies" were examples of "potential" disabilities. [url="http://www.dese.mo.gov/divspeced/Compliance/"]http://www.dese.mo.gov/divspeced/Compliance/[/url] Guidance/STUDENT_ACCESS.pdf

b. Missouri Department of Elementary and Secondary Education 4-page statement on "Special Dietary Needs", [url="http://www.dese.state.mo.us/divadm/food/specialdietary.html"]http://www.dese.state.mo.us/divadm/food/specialdietary.html[/url]

[b]3. Medical sources (5):[/b] a. Letter from your licensed physician.

b. CAP-Rast or SPT results

c. AAAAI position statement #34 addressing the need for access to an adult trained to administer medication. [url="http://www.aaaai.org/media/resources/academy_statements/position_statements/ps34.asp"]http://www.aaaai.org/media/resources/academy_statements/position_statements/ps34.asp[/url]

d. Sampson article on "Anaphylaxis and Emergency Treatment", PEDIATRICS Vol. 111, no. 6 June 2003, pp. 1601-1608.

e. PEDIATRICS vol. 112 No. 3, September 2003 Policy Statement , American Academy of Pediactrics, "Guidelines for the Administration of Medication in School". [url="http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;112/3/697"]http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;112/3/697[/url]

[b]4. Other Professional Organizations: [/b] a. Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America, statement from website declaring that children with LTFA are protected under Section 504. [url="http://www.aafa.org/display.cfm?id=5?=74&cont=153"]http://www.aafa.org/display.cfm?id=5?=74&cont=153[/url] In the "advocacy" section you can find a page called "Americans with Disabilities Act". Highlight the section starting with, [i]"Does the ADA Apply to People with Asthma and Allergies?"[/i]

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 19, 2005).]

On Jul 20, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by qdebbie1: [b] I have a contuned eligibility meeting tomorrow. [/b]

I hope your meeting goes well today. Sending positive cyber vibes your way....~~~~~~~~~~~

On Jul 20, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by qdebbie1: [b] I have a contuned eligibility meeting tomorrow. [/b]

I hope your meeting goes well today. Sending positive cyber vibes your way....~~~~~~~~~~~

On Jul 20, 2005

Thanks, I now feel really good. We filed a complaint with OCR on June 30th. My lead investigator called me last night and told me they were proceeding because our school is denying him FAPE and told me if they deny the 504 to call her immediately and add it to the complaint because "we clearly see allergy as a hidden disability" I hope I do not have to keep taking it up a notch to get it done but I will if I am forced to do it. She said once schools realize OCR is involved they back down because they like thier federal funding. Thanks for the support, I will keep you all posted.

On Jul 20, 2005

Congratulations! linking: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001906.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001906.html[/url]

On Jul 26, 2005

Last year my first grade PA ds had a 504 plan. My third grade ds with a latex allergy had a IHP.

BIG DIFFERENCE for my third grader- at a young author's party in May the media center was decorated with pretty LATEX balloon bouquets at every table. The head room mom forgot to mention those to me, and the teacher completely forgot. Another time in phy-ed class my son had to sit out due to latex balls, when the school has all sizes of synthetic gym balls available.

A 504 plan also should include reminders to all parties involved through out the school year, people do 'forget'. A 504 plan is more thorough and very necessary.

Big Thank you's again to you 'trail blazers', you are inspirational!

-Jill

On Aug 8, 2005

raising for...

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Aug 14, 2005

I just re-read this thread (I needed a pep talk). There is a lot of good information here, and I wanted to bump it back up.

On Aug 15, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] I would [i]love[/i] for Mariah to clip her epi-pen to herself somehow. We keep coming back to this as a good option, but Mariah absolutely objects. It's a fashion-diva issue [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] and we've just decided its not a battle to take on. At least not now, with the big transition to Middle School. [/b]

Does she carry it at home? Outside of school?

This is not a battle, this is an [i]expectation[/i]. This is what she needs to make eventually as others have put it so well: "Part and Parcel" of her. I say this respectfully.

It's gotten to where I never see oldest put his epi-pen and holder in his pocket (we favor cargo pants with zip or velcro pockets). But [i]lo[/i], it's always there. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] He remembers before I do. I remember once running to the bus to give him one, thinking: "I didn't put it in his pocket."

One of the many cases and pens we have on hand was already there. He put it there. Boy, did I look silly in my flannels and power puff shirt. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Do I carry one as well? [i]Of course, I'm his mother.[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Of course, our IEP and laws (to my understanding) either designate or allow him, in our particular situaion and as an individual, as competent [i]and appropriate[/i] to carry one (as do staff with him), and maybe it's just our individual situation. Not sure what the situation is in MO.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited August 15, 2005).]

On Aug 15, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] Does she carry it at home? [/b]

She doesn't carry it inside our home (is that what you mean?). We have a "Med kit" permanently stationed by the phone. It contains 3 epi-pens, other meds, written info, etc. She knows it's there.

Papa and Grandma live 2 doors up. Same situation there with a med kit visible in the kitchen by the phone. So Mariah doesn't carry her epi-pens at either home.

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]Outside of school? [/b]

Yes. Absolutely. If, on a rare occasion, she forgets her epi-pen, then we turn around and go home to get it. Natural consequence. (Even though Mom has one ~ three actually~ in her purse.) Mariah is exceptionally good about carrying her epi-pen/inhaler outside school. The habit is instilled. Not a big deal. ([i]Integrated,[/i] as becca says. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] )

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]This is not a battle, this is an [i]expectation[/i]. This is what she needs to make eventually as others have put it so well: "Part and Parcel" of her. I say this respectfully.

It's gotten to where I never see oldest put his epi-pen and holder in his pocket (we favor cargo pants with zip or velcro pockets). But [i]lo[/i], it's always there. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] He remembers before I do. I remember once running to the bus to give him one, thinking: "I didn't put it in his pocket."

One of the many cases and pens we have on hand was already there. He put it there. Boy, did I look silly in my flannels and power puff shirt. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Do I carry one as well? [i]Of course, I'm his mother.[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img][/b]

Same scenario here. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]Of course, our IEP and laws (to my understanding) either designate or allow him, in our particular situation and as an individual, as competent [i]and appropriate[/i] to carry one (as do staff with him), and maybe it's just our individual situation. Not sure what the situation is in MO. [/b]

Just last month, the School Board [i]drafted [/i]policy that would allow children to carry their epi-pens at school. At my urging. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] It is still not finalized. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] but that's another story. LOL! Prior to this, no student was allowed to carry an epi-pen at school. We asked, and it was 'prohibited'. Mariah never carried her epi-pen at school for 6 years. Even when she had an after-school playdate, she was required to drop off her med kit at the nurse's office immediately upon entering the building and would pick it up after dismissal.

So part of the "issue", for her, is that she never carried her epi-pen at school. At the time that she was interested and willing to use an epi-belt, the school refused. Introducing this extremely visible new habit [i]now [/i]as she enters Middle School (not to mention puberty) is hard. She equates it to entering a new school with a large sticker plaster to her forehead.

So...... she will carry an epi-pen discretely in the front pocket of her backpack. Staff will know that it is there, but they will use one of the 5 'trauma kits' at the school if they need an epi-pen. This is stated in her IHP.

Thank you for coming back here to ask about this. I read about the death posted on the Main Discussion board and know that this is coming from your concern for her safety.

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]I say this respectfully. [/b]

I know. Thank you. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited August 15, 2005).]

On Aug 15, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by GailW: [b] Thank you for coming back here to ask about this. I read about the death posted on the Main Discussion board and know that this is coming from your concern for her safety.

[/b]

absolutely, but true confession. [i]I was pretty sure what your answer(s) would be.[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] I just didn't know how [i]thorough[/i] they actually are. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img] Sounds like you've got your bases covered. Congratulations on that very important victory at school. You've earned it.

Honestly? I'd still like to move to Missouri. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img] Then you could pat my youngest's head. (providing you could catch him still long enough). [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited August 15, 2005).]

On Aug 16, 2005

Gail, My dd is entering middle school also. She does not want to wear her EpiBelt either. In our meeting at the school today, we came up with the solution that she will carry a purse with her Epi in it at all times at school. Apparently, it is very cool at middle school for the girls to carry purses. That solves the problem for us. Is this an option for your dd?

On Aug 16, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by CarolynM: [b] Apparently, it is very cool at middle school for the girls to carry purses. [/b]

Doesnt' [i]Coach[/i] make a strappy petite wallet/shoulder bag style? I've coveted the last few I've seen. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

On Aug 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by CarolynM: [b]Apparently, it is very cool at middle school for the girls to carry purses. That solves the problem for us. Is this an option for your dd?[/b]

Thanks! We have our meeting nest week and we'll check it out.

I appreciate you thinking about this and posting it for me.

Quote:

Originally posted my MommaBear: Doesnt' Coach make a strappy petite wallet/shoulder bag style? I've coveted the last few I've seen.

I don't notice purses, or much about fashion at all. Actually, I'm certain that I'm a fashion "no". LOL!

I have no doubt that Mariah will also take notice, though. I use one 'purse' (a Coach backpack) that I've used for 3 years now. I tend to get one all-purpose long-lasting bag so that I don't have to revisit shopping for one again any time soon. Mariah sweetly tries to help me expand my repetoire. She loves fashion and shopping. If it's cool to carry a purse at school, I certainly will be shopping for them with her.

On Aug 17, 2005

Gail,

I got a chuckle out of reading that Mariah thinks carrying her Epi is like wearing a sticker on her forehead [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Have you seen the new holders for epipen? I picked up a new dual pack last week and the epi itself has a new container with a safety bottom for the needle. This very new sturdy and cool I might add container is green.

What if Mariah were to decorate the container? You know kinda like how cell phones have all the "bling" with their cell phone holders.

I don't think I started carrying a purse until I was a Freshman in HS. However, times have definitely changed [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/eek.gif[/img]

I think it's much easier for girls to carry an epi atleast they can put it in a purse. Where do the guys put it?

On Aug 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by e-mom: [b]Have you seen the new holders for epipen? I picked up a new dual pack last week and the epi itself has a new container with a safety bottom for the needle. This very new sturdy and cool I might add container is green.

What if Mariah were to decorate the container? You know kinda like how cell phones have all the "bling" with their cell phone holders. [/b]

e-mom! Yes! We've had the new epi-pen design for a month or two. I really like them too. The .3 mg have an orange twist off cap.

I [i]did[/i] propose adding bling. I thought I was very cool to know about bling and to suggest it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] But you should have seen the the disgusted glare I received. I'm [i]so [/i]not cool.

(Then she asked if she could get a cell phone. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

On Aug 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] (Then she asked if she could get a cell phone. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

[/b]

are you able to wiggle on this one? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

[i]It could be negotiable..........[/i]

On Aug 17, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] are you able to wiggle on this one? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

[i]It could be negotiable..........[/i][/b]

Yes, actually, we are seriously considering it. Several of her friends already have them. She's 11. [i][b]11[/i][/b] (Deep breaths....)

Of course, [i]we [/i]look at it as a safety issue. Some phone options offer restricted calling, like outgoing calls only to home and 911.

And of course, no surprise, [i]Mariah [/i]is interested in calling her friends.

So, she's taken on looking into packages and pricing. In other words, [i]she's shopping[/i] for data. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I'm expecting a 'pitch' from her any time...

On Aug 18, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] Yes, actually, we are seriously considering it. [/b]

I mean, [i]back scratching[/i]. You carry your epi-pen full time, we'll add a phone to our cell plan. (Or can she get "pay as you go"? Do you have to be 18?) Just think, when [i]"friends" [/i]tease her about the epi-pen, she could alwyas pull out the latest in cellular technology from her coach bag, and erase their names from the phone list.

Maybe allowing her to use "pay as you go" (from her own money) for a brief period of time might soften negotiations. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

edit to change "bracelet" to "epi-pen" (it's early and I'm zero coffee for the next nine months) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited August 18, 2005).]

On Aug 18, 2005

I had suggested that she clip her epi-pen to the [i]outside [/i] of her backpack so that it was easily visible to staff. (I was imagining staff frantically riffling through her very large backpack in a panic trying to find her epi-pen under her books and other 'junk' she carries.) This visible display is what she object to, the "sticker on her forehead".

She's fine with her epi-pen in her purse or backpack. Her backpack has a front pocket that "hides" it for her and is the only pocket with a reflector strip which solves my issue of staff easily identifying where it is.

But this:

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] Just think, when [i]"friends" [/i]tease her about the epi-pen, she could alwyas pull out the latest in cellular technology from her coach bag, and erase their names from the phone list. ][/b]

hit a chord with me. DH and I have been pretty consistent in our message to her that her PA is .... well, a fact of life to address. In general, we don't give out many perks related to PA.

But again this. I liked visualizing Mariah doing this:

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] ... when [i]"friends" [/i]tease her about the epi-pen, she could always pull out the latest in cellular technology from her coach bag, and erase their names from the phone list. [/b]

I know you are well aware of some of the hurt Mariah experienced at school over the past few years. The exclusion. [i]I allowed it to go on too long [/i] and I regret it.

Reading that made me realize how much [i] my [/i] anger is still there. I'm sure it must be so for her, no doubt much, much more.

I feel good every time I read it. Empowering.

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] Just think, when [i]"friends" [/i]tease her about the epi-pen, she could always pull out the latest in cellular technology from her coach bag, and erase their names from the phone list. ][/b]

Thank you. I never would have thought about it this way.

You know, I had the same positive response when you (in another post) suggested that the "substitute" treats your cub would chose from were vastly more appealing than what the birthday child brought... like movie tickets, lego blocks, and other very coveted substitutes that would make the unsafe treat far less appealing in comparison. And I liked the idea that maybe your cub could also pick one friend to receive one of cub's substitute treats along with him. I never told you, but that really made me think.

I'm thinking about that maybe it's time for me to think about ways to tip the scales in Mariah's favor.

Thank you. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Aug 18, 2005

Our DD starts kindergarten in two weeks and we

On Aug 18, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]I know you are well aware of some of the hurt Mariah experienced at school over the past few years. The exclusion.[/b]

[i]yes.[/i]

on a personal level: [i]I've lived it.[/i]

I have very [i]biased[/i] ideas about it. I admit it. It's something so wrong on so many levels, I'll fight with every last iota of my being before I ever allow my children to buy into the idea such exclusion and clique-ishness is *normal*. That if they experience pain in some way because of this, [i]it's not because there is something wrong with him[/i]. I can't take the pain away, but I can sure ease it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] I [i]can[/i] change the world. I'm their mother. [b]It's my job.[/b] If I can bring life into this world, I can sure give it direction. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I'm not saying you buy into it. I know you don't, I know it hurts you equally, if not more. I just realize how it permeates every aspect of society today. I'm just speaking from unspeakable hurt.

On Aug 18, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]You know, I had the same positive response when you (in another post) suggested that the "substitute" treats your cub would chose from were vastly more appealing than what the birthday child brought... like movie tickets, lego blocks, and other very coveted substitutes that would make the unsafe treat far less appealing in comparison. And I liked the idea that maybe your cub could also pick one friend to receive one of cub's substitute treats along with him. I never told you, but that really made me think.

I'm thinking about that maybe it's time for me to think about ways to tip the scales in Mariah's favor.

[/b]

Yes. That's my job. I don't care what the school tells me.

Although there is *not* supposed to be a treat box this year..........*you've* got me thinking. It brought a [i]positive response[/i] to me (again) as well. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

I'm thinking: "Maybe a *secret* treat box, chest, *room*, between me and the teacher. Just in case. That way, if she ever decides to *breach* the plan, she'll have to deliver *whatever* to my cub. And proto. With audience. And explain why. I indulge my children. [i]Without shame[/i]. The #*!! with how someone else [i]wants me to raise them[/i]. Their MINE.

Fah. I indulge them, [i]and they are still "good kids"[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

For the "treasure chest", (in the [b]unlikely[/b] event *the teacher* would [i]choose[/i] to utilize it), I'm thinking of something on a [i]bit[/i] smaller scale than *this*:

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/trainspotr/Christmasmorning2003boys.jpg[/img]

thoughts? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Aug 18, 2005

I could not have said it any better Thanks Love the pics!

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Aug 18, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]And I liked the idea that maybe your cub could also pick one friend to receive one of cub's substitute treats along with him.[/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

On Aug 18, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by synthia: [b]I could not have said it any better Thanks Love the pics!

[/b]

thank you. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

you know, as much as my oldest likes to [i]pretend[/i] differences such as birthday cake vs. [i]smarties tarts[/i] don't bother him............I find it quite striking that each year at Christmas, the cubs are quietly, but deliberately comparing the size of [i]each others piles of presents[/i]. Sometimes, each secretly comming to me and asking if their pile is as big as the other. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] No lie. [i]I know different[/i].

It's my job.........

ps.....I always keep a few gifts that *both* would like, [i]unmarked[/i]. That way, if I notice either feeling slighted, or one more immensely enjoying their gifts than the other, I can just nudge the unmarked box in their general direction. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

[i]It's my job...... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img][/i]

Initially, we keep the gifts [i]interspersed[/i], non-differentiable from the others. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img] Inevitably, they start dividing them up into separate piles, [i]comparing[/i]. No one can tell me it's any different at school, when brother to brother, this is what I notice at home. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

LOL. this year, as technology creates an inverse proportional relationship between size and dollar amount, [i]what will I do???[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited August 18, 2005).]

On Aug 19, 2005

Murrays,

Welcome to the boards. I see that you're a new poster...

I see you have some important questions, but they may well get buried here in this topic.

Suggest that you start a brand new topic w/your questions, so members can give you targeted feedback...and make it easier to get what you're looking for. For example, when you post the topic, there is an option you can select where you will be notified whenever someone responds to your topic....

On Aug 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by murrays: [b]-I

On Aug 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutternomore: [b]Murrays,

Welcome to the boards. I see that you're a new poster... [/b]

Thanks! My wife has been reading the boards for months and

On Aug 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by murrays: [b] Thanks for the links, but a search for

On Aug 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by murrays: [b] If I bring up LRE to the 504 committee, I want a document from the OCR, USDA, etc. with those words highlighted. I want to argue facts, not impressions or interpretations.

Thanks -murray[/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Not intending to be sarcastic whatsoever, but I hope you find such clear cut statements and post the links here.

In addition to the Wright's Law website, I found Reed Martin is an excellent source on this topic (LRE).

On Aug 19, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Not intending to be sarcastic whatsoever, but I hope you find such clear cut statements and post the links here.

In addition to the Wright's Law website, I found Reed Martin is an excellent source on this topic (LRE).

[/b]

Thanks, I'll check those sites.

I think this thread has yielded several clear cut statements, links and strategies that will make the job much easier (things like allergies are considered hidden disabilities by government agencies). I simply won't push LRE if it's not that clear cut.

-murray

On Aug 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by murrays: [B-I

On Aug 21, 2005

In this link pertaining to IDEA, entitled within the document: "[b]H.R.1350 Individuals with Disabilities Education Improvement Act of 2004 (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)[/b] :

[url="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:h.1350.enr:"]http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:h.1350.enr:[/url]

you can find (after some time):

[i]`(9)[b] FREE APPROPRIATE PUBLIC EDUCATION[/b]- The term `free appropriate public education' means special education and related services that--

`(A) have been provided at public expense, under public supervision and direction, and without charge;

`(B) meet the standards of the State educational agency;

`(C) include an appropriate preschool, elementary school, or secondary school education in the State involved; and

`(D) are provided in conformity with the [b]individualized education program[/b] required under section 614(d)."

bold added by myself. "Individualized education program" = IEP? Anyone? Would this include "504"?

___________________________________

and (after some more time):

"`(5) [b]LEAST RESTRICTIVE ENVIRONMENT[/b]-

`(A) IN GENERAL- [b]To the maximum extent appropriate[/b], children with disabilities, including children in public or private institutions or other care facilities, are educated with children who are not disabled, and special classes, separate schooling, or other removal of children with disabilities from the regular educational environment [b]occurs only when the nature or severity of the disability of a child is such that education in regular classes with the use of supplementary aids and services cannot be achieved satisfactorily.[/b]

`(B) ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENT-

`(i) IN GENERAL- A State funding mechanism shall not result in placements that violate the requirements of subparagraph (A), and a State shall not use a funding mechanism by which the State distributes funds on the basis of the type of setting [b]in which a child is served that will result in the failure to provide a child with a disability a free appropriate public education according to the unique needs of the child as described in the child's IEP.[/b]

`(ii) ASSURANCE- If the State does not have policies and procedures to ensure compliance with clause (i), the State shall provide the Secretary an assurance that the State will revise the funding mechanism as soon as feasible to ensure that such mechanism does not result in such placements. [/i]

(again, bold added by myself) ________________________________________

but this is [b]IDEA[/b] legislation......... so I don't know if I'm being of any help. least of all my impressions. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] ________________________________________

some may be surprised, elated, or even [i]dissapointed[/i] to realize what a "Free, Appropriate, Public Education in The Least Restrictive Environment" may actually be. Catchy phrases being what they may be.

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, currentness, or content of the link in this post. Individual Mileage May Vary.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited August 21, 2005).]

On Aug 21, 2005

btw, I found the above link at

[url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/speced/guid/idea/idea2004.html"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/speced/guid/idea/idea2004.html[/url]

under:

"Laws and Policy"

General Discliamer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, currentness, or content of the link in this post.

On Aug 22, 2005

I have been reading about wearing the epi-pen to school. My daughter (about to be 6 - 1st grade) curently has Red/White/Blue -purse bags - small with long strap - fits 2 epis /benadryl/medic alert card emergency plan etc. One is with the nurse, one with the homeroom teacher that goes with her from class to class. I have the epi-pen holder from FAAN. I am wondering if that isn't the smarter way to go - it would be on her vs. hanging at the entrance of the door. Is 6 too young to carry it on her?

On Aug 23, 2005

kicks,

You know your child best, and can best comment on maturity level.

My son wore his epipen in an epibelt everyday at school since the first day of Kindergarten. He is starting 3rd grade next week. He is responsible and mature for his age. Has been that way since he was 5. Could he auto inject? That was not necessarily the issue at age 5. Just that he is to always have the epi on his body wherever he goes. Period. That's just the way it is.

We talk(ed) to him about the big responsibility of carrying an epipen. We request the principal to sit him down and discuss this issue with Ryan every year--do's/don'ts of carrying an epipen. He wears big shirts. Virtually none of his friends know he carries an epipen. No adults can really tell either unless they know.

As a boy, it is not a big social issue because it is hidden well under his clothes. It does not appear as a "badge" of difference for him. He was trained by mom and the principal from day one on what to say if someone noticed his epibelt and wanted to see what was inside. It has happened, and he has come through with flying colors.

IMO, you are the best person to decide if your child can carry the epipen successfully and safely. Our school nurse has mentioned to me that it is amazing what some of these young children can do under pressure. There are children that can successfully auto-inject, even in Kindergarten. My feeling is don't assume they can't do it (carry an epipen and auto-inject), but prepare them for the possibility that a reaction may occur and what to do about it. Empower them at a young age if they can handle it.

On Aug 23, 2005

Thanks ryan's mom for ... Empower them at a young age if they can handle it.MommaBear thanks got to thinking about it and she has been asking ? and making statements. I think now would good for me to let her read her 504 plan and get more input. Thanks everyone!

------------------ Love this site Synthia

[This message has been edited by synthia (edited August 23, 2005).]

On Aug 29, 2005

Reraising for Tina!

On Sep 9, 2005

Bingo!! raising for a friend! Ok slap me now!!

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Sep 10, 2005

I'm still working with my School District, preparing for an overnight camp that is scheduled for the end of this month. Just a reminder~ we received 504 Designation last May, and worked with the SD over the summer to create an accommodation plan. DD started Middle School 3 weeks ago, and so we've had less than a month to implement the new accommodations in this new 504 Plan.

I'll put forward another "myth" and hope posters can agree or disagree with based on their own experiences with their child's 504 plans....

[b]Myth #20: Once you have been through the 504 Eligibility process and have obtained a 504 Designation and accommodation plan, your School District now "gets it" and understands your child's rights. [/b]

e-mom raises this in her thread called, "How Many People Have 504s or IEPs That Were Violated?" here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001880.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001880.html[/url]

I'm not asserting that DD's 504 plan has actually been 'violated' at this time, but in the process of preparing for the overnight camp, the SD has made some verbal statements that indicate that they still do not understand my child's rights. One of those statements was that my daughter "could bring her own food if [i] was not comfortable with the camp's food". (That wouldn't necessarily meet a LRE. They are obligated to feed my child like her non-disabled peers, at least "comparably".) Another statement made by this same administrator was that my daughter could not attend the camp unless we signed the standard 'consent and release' form. This is posted here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001958.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001958.html[/url]

I guess I wanted to point out that this is a on-going process. The dance goes something like this: 1. I see them stepping out of bounds (e.g. asking me to sign a release waiver) , 2. I point that out and object (e.g. "does this release conflict with our DD's rights?"), 3. they object to my objection (e.g. "this is a standard form used by the SD and this is the district's practice"), 4. we refuse outright refuse to sign (e.g. "we've consulted with x,y,z and have been advised not to sign".) 5. they draw a line (e.g. "your DD cannot attend camp unless you sign the form"), 6. we say 'prove it' (e.g. "please show me the school board policy that states this"). 7. Then they look to their regulations (school board policy, state DESE, etc.) and come back to the table with a more cooperative tone (e.g. "let's meet and discuss this more".) 8. We then agree to language to modify the form.

( [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] Let's all sing together to the tune of the "Hoky-Poky": [i]"You do the 'district boogy' and they turn themselves around... [b]THAT'S what it's all about!"[/b] [/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Sorry. I just needed to give myself a little giggle. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] )

I think we'll be dancing this same little dance for a while....

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited September 10, 2005).]

On Sep 10, 2005

I'm confused. Can "school boards" create policy that negates federal legislation,( not sure if that is what is happening) or does federal legislation have to have language that allows for that?

On Sep 10, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]I'm confused. Can "school boards" create policy that negates federal legislation,( not sure if that is what is happening) or does federal legislation have to have language that allows for that?[/b]

This is exactly the thought process that would occur. The school board policy cites legal references (state and federal) at the bottom of each policy.

On Sep 10, 2005

note the administrator's use of the word "practice":

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: 3. they object to my objection (e.g. "this is a standard form used by the SD and this is the district's [b]practice[/b]")

and our use of the word "policy":

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: 4. we refuse outright refuse to sign (e.g. "we've consulted with x,y,z and have been advised not to sign".) 5. they draw a line (e.g. "your DD cannot attend camp unless you sign the form"), 6. we say 'prove it' (e.g. "please show me the [b]school board policy [/b]that states this")

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited September 10, 2005).]

On Sep 10, 2005

Just adding my two cents. I totally agree with Myth #20.

And still thinking that this thread topic is one of THE most important ones here at pa.com. I love to see it constantly being reraised. Sure wish it was a "sticky" topic always at the top.

On Oct 8, 2005

Found it! raising for got epi's

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Dec 3, 2005

reraising for TeddyAlly.

On Dec 5, 2005

bumping up for Dawn

On Dec 6, 2005

Raising

On Dec 7, 2005

Thanks for reraising this - just finished reading it all. I am probably going to ask a stupid question here, but I'll just risk it. We are just dealing with Peanut/Tree nut allergies -- there is no asthma involved, or other learning disabilities, impairments, or health issues, etc., -- from what I am kind of getting those of you that have an IHP in addition to the 504 have other things in addition the the FA's - am I right? There seems to be a debate about the IDEA-OHP I saw in here. I just want to make sure we aren't supposed to be asking for more than the 504 -- what is appropriate, right?

On Dec 10, 2005

Re-raising for TeddyAlly.

On Dec 10, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Thanks for reraising this - just finished reading it all. I am probably going to ask a stupid question here, but I'll just risk it. We are just dealing with Peanut/Tree nut allergies -- there is no asthma involved, or other learning disabilities, impairments, or health issues, etc., -- from what I am kind of getting those of you that have an IHP in addition to the 504 have other things in addition the the FA's - am I right? There seems to be a debate about the IDEA-OHP I saw in here. I just want to make sure we aren't supposed to be asking for more than the 504 -- what is appropriate, right? [/b]

Hi gvmom,

Think you already know the answer, but yes, given what you describe above, the 504 designation is what you want to go for...

On Dec 11, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutternomore: [b] Think you already know the answer, but yes, given what you describe above, the 504 designation is what you want to go for...[/b]

would an OHI designation under an IEP get a "cash strapped" school any additional funding to make accommodations? (or at least remove some [i]excuses[/i]?) Don't know if the school is "cash strapped". Don't know if it would. Does not being able to attend school in safety affect [i]education[/i]?

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I don't know. Just asking. Don't remember an answer to these myself. Still wondering.

On Dec 11, 2005

[url="http://www.allergysupport.org/index.php?contents=rhondadocs/Primer.htm"]http://www.allergysupport.org/index.php?contents=rhondadocs/Primer.htm[/url]

In particular, to quote:

[i]"ASTHMA AND SEVERE FOOD ALLERGIES

Some disabilities clearly fall under Section 504, while others clearly fall under IDEA........"[/i]

Can they fall under [b]both[/b]? I mean, talking spectrums here. Personally? I've always tended to be very thorough. Buy a little "extra". Just in case. Room to grow. or not. But personally? I think OHI was appropriate considering my cub's needs related to *his* food allergy. Maybe this varies. Who knows? It could just be me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I believe, in my child's highly individulal, unique, and personal situation, not having safe access to the educational environment *DID* affect his [i]education[/i]. I mean, he was homeschooled for two years because of it. But even if it was *one* incident......one missed lesson.....but I digress. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I mean, are we also talking [i]obligation[/i] here? And I could be wrong. This is just a wild guess about my own cub's situation.

Anywhoooooooooooo. [i]Anyone?[/i]

Has anyone else ever requested "OHI" for food allergies before?

My child's "health" needs are covered under "Other Health Impairment". I believe "OHI" is listed as one of the qualifiying criteria for protection under IDEA. I could be wrong.

Among *many* accommodations he receives and is listed on the particular forms our district uses (not sure if they all use the same forms), is accommodations related to bus service. Aides. Nurses. But that's just us. I don't know about anyone else.

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Just describing my own personal unique highly individual situation and musings about it. Individual Mileage May Vary. I do not guarantee the accuracy, currentness, or content of the link in this post.

On Dec 11, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: Can they fall under [b]both[/b]?

Any child with an OHI designation is automatically covered under Section 504. So, yes, if your child has OHI designation then they "fall under both" IDEA and 504.

Mariah is protected under IDEA for her learning disability and has an IEP. She has a 504 plan for her LTFAs and asthma. It is my *personal opinion* that the 504 designation can be just as powerful as the OHI designation if you exercise it fully.

On Dec 11, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] Any child with an OHI designation is automatically covered under Section 504. So, yes, if your child has OHI designation then they "fall under both" IDEA and 504. [/b]

interesting. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] [i]Boolean Thing?[/i]

Quote:

[b]Mariah is protected under IDEA for her learning disability and has an IEP. She has a 504 plan for her LTFAs and asthma. It is my *personal opinion* that the 504 designation can be just as powerful as the OHI designation if you exercise it fully. [/b]

"can be"? Can you explain? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Dec 11, 2005

Both IDEA and 504 have their respective language for the child to achieve the goal of FAPE. The language is different, but they both have the same goal, yes?

Mariah's has an IDEA designation for her LD and a 504 designation for her LTFAs. It is my experience that they each address her needs appropriately.

Do you believe IDEA-OHI is a *better* protection for LTFAs?

On Dec 11, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]Both IDEA and 504 have their respective language for the child to achieve the goal of FAPE. The language is different, but they both have the same goal, yes?

Mariah's has an IDEA designation for her LD and a 504 designation for her LTFAs. It is my experience that they each address her needs appropriately.

Do you believe IDEA-OHI is a *better* protection for LTFAs?[/b]

first I need to know why you used the words "can be". Should it [i]automatically[/i]? Is there more finagelling involved? For 504's, I mean. Is one a "bigger stick"? Does one carry funding to achieve accommodations?

Do I remember correctly? Did you ask for "OHI designation" for food allergies previously from your district?

On Dec 11, 2005

Gail,

can you help me understand?

hypothetically.....if a school does not have a school nurse (full time RN position) and it is deemed necessary to have a full time RN in order for a child with LTFA to attend, which would be a *better* choice: OHI or 504?

it's my understanding the [i]obligation[/i] for the school to provide under both *may* be the same. But that said, under which designation would one meet less resistance to fill that position? I mean, cuddly language of 504 or IDEA [i]aside[/i]? I mean, I'd like to think that in the *real world* language is motivation enough.....

Provide alternate bus service?

an aide?

for example.

******************************

Let's talk witholding Federal Funding for non-compliance. Do *both* offer that remedy?

Now, do *both* *provide* funding for accommodations?

No advice whatsoever, just asking questions I'm still blurry on.

On Dec 11, 2005

MB, I want to continue this wonderful discussion. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Family obligations will keep away from the keyboard today. I'll look forward to continuing later this week.

On Dec 11, 2005

ummmm, just squeezing in here quickly to say thank you to Nutternomore.......did I mention debate?

Stepping back again, though Mommabear the direction you are coming from is part of what it is I'm wondering about --- am very interested in what you and Gail are discussing. Okay, shhh, whispering, backing up.............

On Dec 12, 2005

continuing this conversation on 504 v. IDEA here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477.html[/url]

Hoping others (don't sneak off gvmom!) will also participate....

On Dec 12, 2005

if a parent refused services under IDEA to cover a specific disability, (ie: I don't want a "special education" label) would that parent, in fact, be unable to demand services under 504 to cover the [i]same disability[/i]? Anyone?

No advice, absolutely not, just wondering.

edit: Moved to page 4 of this thread:

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477-4.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477-4.html[/url]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited December 12, 2005).]

On Dec 12, 2005

[url="http://www.iog.unc.edu/pubs/electronicversions/slb/slbsum02/article2.pdf#search='idea%20ohi%20504'"]http://www.iog.unc.edu/pubs/electronicversions/slb/slbsum02/article2.pdf#sea rch='idea%20ohi%20504'[/url]

entitled:

[b]"Eligibility under IDEA for Other Health Impaired Children"[/b]

~by Kara Grice

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, currentness, or content of the link in this post.

edit: moved to page 4 of this thread:

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477-4.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477-4.html[/url]

------------------ "The beatings will continue until morale improves..."

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited December 12, 2005).]

On Dec 12, 2005

I hope you all dont mind if I add a couple of questions in here...

How do I get started with the 504? Do I go to my dd's allergist and request it or talk to her about it or do I just type up the 504 and then take it to the allergist? With all the paperwork that I have on my daughter for and from her school, she may already have a 504 in place (although I have never sat in a meeting). How do I find this out? Do I ask the nurse, principal, teacher (the last person I want to ask)? With the 504 stick with dd for life or is it just thru school? Is it like disability, will she start receiving disability funds? Thanks and I hope you all dont mind the questions...it is just so complicating.

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 5) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Dec 12, 2005

Oh, thought of another question...my husband is just worried that if she is labled "disabled" with a 504, does the school have the right to stick her in "Special Education" classes? That is his biggest fear, they are going to turn it around on us.

Oh, thank you for bumping this up for me! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 5) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jan 5, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]I hope you all dont mind if I add a couple of questions in here...

How do I get started with the 504? Do I go to my dd's allergist and request it or talk to her about it or do I just type up the 504 and then take it to the allergist? With all the paperwork that I have on my daughter for and from her school, she may already have a 504 in place (although I have never sat in a meeting). How do I find this out? Do I ask the nurse, principal, teacher (the last person I want to ask)? With the 504 stick with dd for life or is it just thru school? Is it like disability, will she start receiving disability funds? Thanks and I hope you all dont mind the questions...it is just so complicating.

[/b]

Check out this post...

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001705.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001705.html[/url]

On Jan 5, 2006

bumping.

This is [b]required[/b] reading for anyone researching (or beginning to work on) 504 plans. You want to start now (if you haven't started already, as some bad apple school districts can sometimes drag their feet). You want to avoid not having this resolved [b]before[/b] school lets out for the summer; trust me, I've been there once, and it's an ugly place! Never going back...

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited January 06, 2006).]

On Jan 6, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]Oh, thought of another question...my husband is just worried that if she is labled "disabled" with a 504, does the school have the right to stick her in "Special Education" classes? That is his biggest fear, they are going to turn it around on us.

Oh, thank you for bumping this up for me! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[/b]

i'm going to have to come back to this. I mean, I'm supposed to have another "biggest fear"??

I'll start by asking: Is "Special Education" necessarily "Special Education Classes"?

and so what if it is?

On Jan 6, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear:

if a parent refused services under IDEA to cover a specific disability, (ie: I don't want a "special education" label) would that parent, in fact, be unable to demand services under 504 to cover the [i]same disability[/i]? Anyone?

No advice, absolutely not, just wondering.

edit: Moved to page 4 of this thread:

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477-4.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477-4.html[/url]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited December 12, 2005).]

reposting.

On Jan 6, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [url="http://www.iog.unc.edu/pubs/electronicversions/slb/slbsum02/article2.pdf#search='idea%20ohi%20504'"]http://www.iog.unc.edu/pubs/electronicversions/slb/slbsum02/article2.pdf#sea rch='idea%20ohi%20504'[/url]

entitled:

[b]"Eligibility under IDEA for Other Health Impaired Children"[/b]

~by Kara Grice

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, currentness, or content of the link in this post.

edit: moved to page 4 of this thread:

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477-4.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477-4.html[/url]

reposting.

my poor cub. amazing what folk think of "Special Education".

On Jan 6, 2006

Right on, MB--

"...my poor cub. amazing what folk think of "Special Education".

"

My thoughts on this...

No. Special Education does not mean Special Education classes. For some yes, for some no. I was not a Spec. Ed. teacher, but I had lots of Special Ed students in my classes. Their disabilities ran the gamut from dyslexia, learning disabilities, visual impairments, hearing difficulties, emotionally disturbed, Down Syndrome, etc. These kids were in "normal" classes.

Some kids need to be in Special Ed classes the entire day. Other Special Ed kids do not have to be in any Special Ed classes. I've taught absolutely brilliant minds but were classified as Special Education because of a disability that needed to be accommodated.

And up until recently (to my knowledge), in our state academically-gifted students fell under Special Education as well.

Parents have plenty of rights. Most of the time those rights are not exercised because parents are unaware they have these rights, nor are they aware how to exercise them.

Last time I was looking over my documentation, I realized there was some uncertainty in my mind (based on my reading) if Ryan was in Special Education, but he definitely has the label of "protected handicapped student" under Chapter 15 in the state of Pennsylvania which falls under Special Education in our school.

I *want* that label. He *needs* that label.

I know some people that post here seem scared of that label "Special Education". Perhaps it is because of our perception of Spec. Ed. when we were in school. Much has changed since then--for the better in many cases.

I hate to see newbies that seem scared of the words Special Education. It does a world of good for so many kids these days.

[This message has been edited by ryan's mom (edited January 06, 2006).]

On Jan 6, 2006

Oh my gosh! Been re-reading,thank you! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

------------------ Love this site Synthia edited ,spelling

[This message has been edited by synthia (edited January 06, 2006).]

On Jan 6, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] my poor cub. amazing what folk think of "Special Education".

[/b]

MommaBear, I'm not worried about your cub. Not one bit. Your cub has his needs met, right? Your cub is [i]rich. [/i]

And, having a child who receives services from "Special Education" for a learning disability, my DD is [i]rich [/i] also. I'm not offended by a statement that a parent would not want "Special Education" for their own child. I assume that their child doesn't need those services.

IMO, the only "poor cub" is a cub who needs services and doesn't receive them.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited January 06, 2006).]

On Jan 6, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] IMO, the only "poor cub" is a cub who needs services and doesn't receive them.

[/b]

especially if it's due to fear of a label.

On Jan 6, 2006

Amen to that last sentence, Gail!

On Jan 6, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] And, having a child who receives services from "Special Education" for a learning disability, my DD is [i]rich [/i] also. I'm not offended by a statement that a parent would not want "Special Education" for their own child. I assume that their child doesn't need those services.

[/b]

Think you hit the nail square on the head. I mean, there has been much discussion over whether a LTFA qualifies as a "Disability". A Major Disability in need of accommodations and services. In some cases [i]related services[/i]?

I'd guess I'd might assume that too if a "label" influenced me as to whether or not I pursued them.

Absolutely not as advice, just how I'd personally feel about my own situation.

On Jan 6, 2006

[url="http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/wholeschool/sen/parentcarers/mychild/"]http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/wholeschool/sen/parentcarers/mychild/[/url]

to quote:

[b]"The term 'special educational needs' has a legal definition. Children with special educational needs all have learning difficulties or disabilities that make it harder for them to learn or access education than most children of the same age."[/b]

Are adjustments (modifications), accomodations and services for LTFA "Special Education"?

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, currentness, or content of the link in this post.

On Jan 7, 2006

[b]"[i]or access education[/i]"[/b]

wish we could [i]redline[/i] certain items in posts.

On Jan 7, 2006

ryan's mom, thank you for your insight and eloquence. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] It's much appreciated.

On Jan 22, 2006

Reraising....just needing some reminders of what is the right thing to do....and why...

On Mar 3, 2006

Thank you for this wonderful thread... needs to be lifted...

------------------ Lisa Mom to Mason (peanut/tree nut/sesame/mustard)

On Mar 3, 2006

Re-Raising for Kernianne

On Mar 24, 2006

bump

need to read

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On May 3, 2006

raising for TwokidsNJ

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Jun 28, 2006

Bumping up ............

On Jul 10, 2006

Where I was coming from with the Special Education mention was because my sister had a very slight speech problem growing up. She was MADE to be in Special Ed Classes which put her behind in a lot of areas in school. My mom pushed and pushed to have her taken out and put back with her class and the school wouldnt do it. We were in a Very small school system and my mom felt powerless. When my sister was finally moved back in with her class (about a year or two after she was put in Special Ed), she was at the lowest GPA in her class. She is 2.5 years older than me and in high school were we in the same classes...I felt bad for her because she didnt feel smart at all having her younger sister in algebra, english, science and a few other classes with her.

My daughter is very intelligent for her age and my husband and I dont want her held back due to her "Disability" status. I know it is different from my sister's disability, but we are in a small school system as well.

I know I am going to get harped on for not already having a 504 and for not having the process started yet. I am getting with dd's allergist on this and a few other things within the next 2 weeks. I am in Texas and from what I have read, Texas doesnt really "honor" 504.

Oh, and the "biggest fear" mention in my other post was HIS BIGGEST FEAR ABOUT 504, not his biggest fear for Our daughter! This is why I dont post much, some people like to turn things around and make others out to be heartless, uncaring, cold parents.

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 10, 2006).]

On Jul 10, 2006

teddyally, it was very clear where you were coming from.

unfortunately, you are right -- some people on these boards make it their sport to try and stick it to people. there are some rather mean-spirited individuals here who love to come across as "oh-so-innocent".

i'm sure you will do what is right for your little ones.

On Jul 10, 2006

Funny, I looked in to see what was added, and went huh? Did I miss something? Then went back a bit -- gotcha. No, I think you were clear too. Don't let the twisting keep you from posting. For the most part, the BS is entertaining, but transparent. The fact that you are here, trying to find out as much info to help your child, is proof enough that you are not a 'heartless, uncaring, cold parent'. I think your questions were legitimate and understandable. All the 504/IDEA stuff can be very confusing. Lots of technicalities, personalities and legalities involved -- keeping it all clear & together is hard.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Funny, I looked in to see what was added, and went huh? Did I miss something? Then went back a bit -- gotcha. No, I think you were clear too. Don't let the twisting keep you from posting. For the most part, the BS is entertaining, but transparent. [/b]

completely understand about "transparent". I mean, I completely understand why some posters in this thread are peeved with me. The answers might be found in the "Conception and Advanced Maternal Age thread". Well, at least it's transparent to me.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]Where I was coming from with the Special Education mention was because my sister had a very slight speech problem growing up. She was MADE to be in Special Ed Classes which put her behind in a lot of areas in school. My mom pushed and pushed to have her taken out and put back with her class and the school wouldnt do it. We were in a Very small school system and my mom felt powerless. When my sister was finally moved back in with her class (about a year or two after she was put in Special Ed), she was at the lowest GPA in her class. She is 2.5 years older than me and in high school were we in the same classes...I felt bad for her because she didnt feel smart at all having her younger sister in algebra, english, science and a few other classes with her.

My daughter is very intelligent for her age and my husband and I dont want her held back due to her "Disability" status. I know it is different from my sister's disability, but we are in a small school system as well.

I know I am going to get harped on for not already having a 504 and for not having the process started yet. I am getting with dd's allergist on this and a few other things within the next 2 weeks. I am in Texas and from what I have read, Texas doesnt really "honor" 504.

Oh, and the "biggest fear" mention in my other post was HIS BIGGEST FEAR ABOUT 504, not his biggest fear for Our daughter! This is why I dont post much, some people like to turn things around and make others out to be heartless, uncaring, cold parents.

[/b]

no advice, but,

my cub is in "Special Education". For a "learning disability" (for lack of a better description) [b]and[/b] for his LTFA and Asthma. (LTFA and Asthma covered under [b]OHI[/b] and as part of his [b]IEP[/b], under which his "learning disability" is also covered. Both under [b]IDEA[/b].)

My youngest cub's similiar needs were addressed under an IEP (Child Find type of thing, pre kindergarten) for three years.

And it may come as a surprise to you that NEITHER of them will be in a "Special Education Classroom" this year. As a matter of fact, my oldest was at the top of his fourth grade class last year. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Funny thing, stereotypical ideals, huh? I mean, what BIGGEST FEARS may be.

On Jul 11, 2006

Glad to hear that yours will not have to go thru what my sister did..no, not surprised!

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by shoshana18: [b] unfortunately, you are right -- some people on these boards make it their sport to try and stick it to people. there are some rather mean-spirited individuals here who love to come across as "oh-so-innocent".

[/b]

hope I don't come across as "oh-so-stupid".

<>

Hate it when that happens to me.

There's been so much (at least it feels like it) that I "put out there" (while hating every naked minute of it--you'll never know how much I hate it, I tell ya) and hoping others might have some degree of hope or benefit reading it.

Without advice intended and only as a curious spectacle.

I could just be a "Maybe it's just you." thing, KWIM? (smack to my forehead)

But yeah, what mistake, huh?

I mean, I just never got used to being insulted. No matter how "weird" people like to paint me.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]I am in Texas and from what I have read, Texas doesnt really "honor" 504.

[/b]

No advice, but Texas is just another state in the Union. Just one of fifty. (I live in Illinois, and we look at Texas as the same-ol-same-ol, KWIM?) Texas doesn't have any special status, exemption, whatever. (That I know of) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

BUT HEY, I COULD BE WRONG.

ps....have you seen the "Give Texas back to Mexico" petition at petitiononline dot com?

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]Glad to hear that yours will not have to go thru what my sister did..no, not surprised![/b]

adding: [i]My oldest was in a "Specialized Instruction" classroom last year for only [b]one[/b] class last year.[/i]

Probably would have done exceptionally well in the "Regular Education Classroom" last year for *that* class as well too. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] But hey, we were just getting our toes used to the water. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

No advice, just speaking personally, but I don't think it was [i]harmful[/i], [b]for him[/b] in any way. Maybe it's just my cub(s), but I haven't found much that holds them back. BTW, there were some *great* children in *both* classes. As well as those who test our limits. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] I mean, [i]that's life[/i], is it not?

On Jul 11, 2006

TeddyAlly, I apologize if my comments were hurtful to you. I certainly didn't intend them to be. I'd also like to share a personal experience to help clarify where I'm coming from re the whole "Special Ed label".

When Mariah was 3 or so I visited our designated elementary school and spoke to the principal in anticipation of kindergarten in a couple years. I explained the whole PA situation, which was fairly new stuff then (DD is now almost 13, so that would have been nearly 10 years ago). The principal said the school had a full time district RN (wonderful news), and went on to say that she'd want Mariah "evaluated by Special Ed". I was totally mortified. Mariah is a bright kid and her PA had nothing whatsoever to do with her ability to learn. I envisioned her being "stuck" in a separate class, much like your sister's experience, and I was offended. I was so horrified that we looked around for other public schools, sold our house, and moved into another district. (Which is where we still are now.)

So I definitely understand the "fear" I felt when that school principal "mislabeled" my daughter for having an "special education" issue instead of a "health issue". Frankly, I didn't want her to have a "Special Ed" label because I thought it was inappropriate.

Or so I then thought. But being where I am now, 10 years later, I see it so very, very differently. The principal was probably one of the only education professionals who may have actually seen this in the proper light. IMO, the proper procedure *is* for a full evaluation by "Special Education" under both IDEA and Section 504. Just exactly as that principal had stated to me, and that offended me so. And this, ironically, is what I ended up fighting [i]years [/i]for in my current school district.

What I didn't understand was that a "Special Ed" label (protection under IDEA) didn't necessarily mean "Special Ed [i]classes[/i]". A "Special Ed" label, for Mariah's asthma/allergy, would mean that she has an accommodation plan (an IEP) that would be protected under IDEA, a very powerful protection. Some would argue that an accommodation plan under IDEA (an IEP, a.k.a. "Special Ed") would give Mariah [i]more [/i]protections than the exact same accommodation plan protected under Section 504 (a 504 plan). Even if the accommodation plans (504 and IEP) were exactly the same. (I don't know if *I* believe this, BTW, but I now would snatch the IDEA label regardless.)

Does any of this make sense? It is confusing.

A full evaluation finally did take place at my years of *my* [i]insistence[/i] and Mariah's health needs (food allergies/asthma) were evaluated under both IDEA (a.k.a. "Special Ed") and Section 504. It was determined that her PA/asthma did not qualify for protection under IDEA ("Special Ed"), but did qualify under Section 504. But again, if I were offered an IEP (a.k.a. "Special Ed", IDEA) I'd take it.

Ironic, isn't it? If I had stayed in our original school district and had the "Special Ed" evaluation just as the principal suggested, the one that offended me so much so that I moved, Mariah would have had the protections that took me over 5 years of *%&# to obtain here in her current SD.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

Mommabear, is it possible for you to just stop for one minute? I mean really now. TeddyAlly has a legitimate concern -- not an indictment of 'Special Education'. You know, I get that 504 is designating a child -- it designates them with a disability. For some of us -- at least our situation -- many of the students designated with disabilities, are those that need the benefits of specialized education. That isn't a bad thing. What can be of concern, is that if you go ahead and get your child designated, will the school -- not thrilled with having to accommodate you -- put a child, not in need of specialized education, in with those students that do need it. Not that my child would catch cooties -- but he doesn't need to be in a class with children in need of specialized education for learning disabilities.

I mean can't you imagine that a school would say, "So you want 504 designation? Fine we'll give you one. Your child is disabled -- oh, yeah, here you go". I had this fear trying to figure out lunch at our school. Not that our son would be hurt by the special ed kids if he sat with them for lunch -- but I wanted him with his class. I wanted him to continue to participate in the school, with the kids he has been with -- not pulled out, and placed with children who have a completely different type of disability designation than he has. But for the Food Allergy, he is behaviorally, socially, academically, etc, where he should be for his age.

Now, make what you are gonna make of that. But step back for a minute. Put the chip down. Also, if you are going to let wierd people paint you, one suggestion, you should have done it while you were pregnant. It would have been a much more interesting painting.

On Jul 11, 2006

Thank you so much for sharing your story with me/us! I understand more now than I did before the posts were made. Thank you!!! I am looking into it all now (still confusing, but starting to make better sence). I too would have been mortified and taken the same action as you. It is nice to hear that we are not alone in this...your story was very helpful!

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]What can be of concern, is that if you go ahead and get your child designated, will the school -- not thrilled with having to accommodate you -- put a child, not in need of specialized education, in with those students that do need it. [/b]

This is a violation of your child's right to a "Least Restrictive Environment" and is illegal.

On Jul 11, 2006

and ps....what you've "read" or what you've experienced personally?

I mean, [b]ABSOLUTELY NOT AS ADVICE, BUT ONLY WRT MY PERSONAL SITUATION[/b]:

[i]I shudder to think of the implications if I would have only taken into consideration what I read (or heard, or had been bombarded with) regarding my children or those who are similiar.[/i] I can't let stereotypes guide me. The stakes are too high.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] I can't let stereotypes guide me. The stakes are too high. [/b]

I admit that Mariah probably did not get what she needed because I had stereotypes (re Special Ed). I regret it very, very much.

On Jul 11, 2006

[b]This is a violation of your child's right to a "Least Restrictive Environment" and is illegal.[/b]

Yes, I realize this. But for some of us who are new to this whole process -- 504/IDEA -- we can be wary. Our school had never designated a child with Food Allergies before. Luckily our Principal has been fairly decent about the whole thing. There are those out there that haven't been fortunate. That maybe are nervous about the whole process. Are confused by it. That have Principal's and school personnel that aren't helpful, or are obnoxious, or don't get how it works either. There are a whole host of variables, and I think to dismiss the concern at issue right now as some sort of commentary about 'special education' really detracts from a legitimate worry that some of us can have.

Haven't anyone ever heard of 'Be careful what you wish for!' I have found that irony is a common thread throughout my life. Many decisions I make, I think of the ramifications of -- in many lights, not just the one that will be the best turn out for my child. I am not a gambling woman when it comes to my children. The decisions I make for them are, on the whole, well thought out. I truly had to think carefully, not as long as my DH, about the pro's and con's of the 504 designation for our son.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Mommabear, is it possible for you to just stop for one minute? I mean really now. TeddyAlly has a legitimate concern -- not an indictment of 'Special Education'. You know, I get that 504 is designating a child -- it designates them with a disability. For some of us -- at least our situation -- many of the students designated with disabilities, are those that need the benefits of specialized education. That isn't a bad thing. What can be of concern, is that if you go ahead and get your child designated, will the school -- not thrilled with having to accommodate you -- put a child, not in need of specialized education, in with those students that do need it. Not that my child would catch cooties -- but he doesn't need to be in a class with children in need of specialized education for learning disabilities.

I mean can't you imagine that a school would say, "So you want 504 designation? Fine we'll give you one. Your child is disabled -- oh, yeah, here you go". I had this fear trying to figure out lunch at our school. Not that our son would be hurt by the special ed kids if he sat with them for lunch -- but I wanted him with his class. I wanted him to continue to participate in the school, with the kids he has been with -- not pulled out, and placed with children who have a completely different type of disability designation than he has. But for the Food Allergy, he is behaviorally, socially, academically, etc, where he should be for his age.

Now, make what you are gonna make of that. But step back for a minute. Put the chip down. Also, if you are going to let wierd people paint you, one suggestion, you should have done it while you were pregnant. It would have been a much more interesting painting.

[/b]

no offense, gvmom, but this reads like someone who has never had a child in "Special Education". I mean, that whole stereotype about "Special Education" classrooms. Very passe, I mean.

[i]But I don't have a 504.[/i]Was offered one a while back, but don't have one. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

My child's pa and asthma (and learning disability) is covered under [i]IDEA[/i]. And personally? I didn't find either as hard to get as some people might think, or [i]read about[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] But then again, I didn't stop. Not for even a [i]minute[/i].

Chalk it up to my perseverative nature. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [i]Disability[/i], whatever. What you might read about.

None-the-less, I consider accommodations for his pa and asthma [i]special education[/i]. I mean, he receives [i]services[/i] because of them. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Anywhoooooooo, even if the "label" for his "learning disability" was dropped, I'm told he would retain his "OHI" [b]designation[/b]. (Other Health Impairment)

Impairment=disability?

Who knows, but I think so. It [i]prohibited[/i] his [b]safe access[/b] to [i]education[/i]. I mean, either a health concern affects ability to safely access education (or access in general), or it does not. Speaking of pregnant, someone I was chatting with this week reminded me: A LTFA is like being pregnant. Either you are, or you aren't. There is no inbetween.

I've been doing a lot of foot work getting my sister (age 57) [i]disability[/i] benefits from Social Security. [i]You would be amazed how similiar the mentality is[/i]. Her hearing is in August. I'm confident it will work out (health concerns aside, I mean.).

No advice, just personal thoughts about my *own* personal situation. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]There are a whole host of variables, and I think to dismiss the concern at issue right now as some sort of commentary about 'special education' really detracts from a legitimate worry that some of us can have.

[/b]

oooooh. [i]I so disagree.[/i]

Forest. Trees.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]

What I didn't understand was that a "Special Ed" label (protection under IDEA) didn't necessarily mean "Special Ed [i]classes[/i]". A "Special Ed" label, for Mariah's asthma/allergy, would mean that she has an accommodation plan (an IEP) that would be protected under IDEA, a very powerful protection. Some would argue that an accommodation plan under IDEA (an IEP, a.k.a. "Special Ed") would give Mariah [i]more [/i]protections than the exact same accommodation plan protected under Section 504 (a 504 plan). Even if the accommodation plans (504 and IEP) were exactly the same. (I don't know if *I* believe this, BTW, but I now would snatch the IDEA label regardless.)

Does any of this make sense? [/b]

[i]perfect.[/i] (eyes stinging, and I don't cry often, for anyone, over anything. Not anymore.)

On Jul 11, 2006

gvmom, you hit the nail on the head as to what our worries are with 'special education'. I do not want the school taking our 504 and then hitting us with 'special classes' when she has no learning disability. I want her kept with her class and in a safe enviro. That was what our worry has been with 504. If she had a learning disability then I could see putting her in special classes...but I cannot see special classes due to food allergies; that is just not fair to her.

Didnt mean to have this turn heated!

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

[b]no offense, gvmom, but this reads like someone who has never had a child in "Special Education". I mean, that whole stereotype about "Special Education" classrooms. Very passe, I mean. [/b]

No offense taken. And you are right, my son hasn't been in a special ed class. There is one special ed class at his school -- and while I realize that not all special ed classes fit into the stereotype, this one does. You always talk about your own unique, individualized situation -- well, is it possible for you to step outside of your own unique situation, and see that elsewhere in this country there are still those stereotypical special ed classes. My son isn't in need of the accommodations afforded by those classes. I am glad that there are services available for students who do need them, but my son doesn't. If getting a 504 designation meant that he would have been placed in that class, I wouldn't have gotten the 504. Not as an indictment on the 'special ed' students, but because his needs wouldn't have been met by being placed in that class.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]gvmom, you hit the nail on the head as to what our worries are with 'special education'. I do not want the school taking our 504 and then hitting us with 'special classes' when she has no learning disability. I want her kept with her class and in a safe enviro. That was what our worry has been with 504. If she had a learning disability then I could see putting her in special classes...but I cannot see special classes due to food allergies; that is just not fair to her. [/b]

sigh. stereotypical fears such as these are *exactly* why this needs to be addressed. And in this thread. You don't just get put into THOSE (read: shock, horror, fear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]) [i]types of classes[/i]. Don't even know if they truly exist except for in peoples' minds.

My child's IEP is very unique. Individualized. Unto him alone. And he *does* have a [i]label[/i]. For a "learning disability", even, pa....asthma aside.

And he is in the "regular" education classroom. Right along with all your/the "normal" children.

[i]mwhahahahaha![/i] (sinister laugh) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Even a potential for him to be in a [i]gifted[/i] (spit, ick, ptooey--have to get the taste out of my mouth) class. Sitting right along all those other supposedly *normal* children. (Wait! Could this be a discussion about the implications of "peanut free" tables also???)

Anywhoooo, it's my impression any time you desire a school to *evaluate*/consider your child for a [i]special need/disability[/i] they are required to look at the *big picture*, just in case. I mean, when asking them to make accommodations, changes, deviations from the [i]norm[/i]. But hey, I could be wrong.

No advice.

On Jul 11, 2006

[b]I do not want the school taking our 504 and then hitting us with 'special classes' when she has no learning disability[/b]

To be broadsided by people sucks, and with some of the stories that people have posted, and just one's own experiences, it is possible. I don't take the possibility of retribution out of the picture when dealing with people who don't want to change. Accommodating Food Allergies isn't on top of peoples lists of things to be thrilled about. Somehow everyone's child has a god given right to a peanut butter sandwich. I don't think for one minute that everyone is going to be nice about what we have put in place for the coming school year. I know people will be pi$$ed off -- including my neighbor across the street whose daughter has been in my son's classes the past two years. I've gotten an earful of opinion, her fishing expeditions to find out what we are trying to get as accommmodations. There are many things that aren't legal -- but we also don't want to turn our lives into a daily battle, daily litigation. There is only so much we are willing to do -- so far we are willing to go. Knowing that you have to fight day in and day out -- and with people who might screw you with a technicality -- well, it is something to keep in mind. At least, in my opinion.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]gvmom, you hit the nail on the head as to what our worries are with 'special education'. I do not want the school taking our 504 and then hitting us with 'special classes' when she has no learning disability. I want her kept with her class and in a safe enviro. That was what our worry has been with 504. If she had a learning disability then I could see putting her in special classes...but I cannot see special classes due to food allergies; that is just not fair to her.

[/b]

I haven't met a parent yet that didn't feel at least a twinge of envy when they realized the accommodations [i]afforded[/i] to my child due to his learning disability. I mean, every child should be so lucky.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] To be broadsided by people sucks, and with some of the stories that people have posted, and just one's own experiences, it is possible. I don't take the possibility of retribution out of the picture when dealing with people who don't want to change. Accommodating Food Allergies isn't on top of peoples lists of things to be thrilled about. Somehow everyone's child has a god given right to a peanut butter sandwich. I don't think for one minute that everyone is going to be nice about what we have put in place for the coming school year. I know people will be pi$$ed off -- including my neighbor across the street whose daughter has been in my son's classes the past two years. I've gotten an earful of opinion, her fishing expeditions to find out what we are trying to get as accommmodations. There are many things that aren't legal -- but we also don't want to turn our lives into a daily battle, daily litigation. There is only so much we are willing to do -- so far we are willing to go. Knowing that you have to fight day in and day out -- and with people who might screw you with a technicality -- well, it is something to keep in mind. At least, in my opinion.[/b]

Oh. Lord.

Don't ya know that a child would need to go through a long evaluation process that would [i]qualify[/i] them for such classes?? They don't let just anybody in. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] (at least how I understand it and from my own *unique* situation)

Oh, wait, you told me your child was[b]n't[/b] in "special education" classes......

Or, are you referring to classes that have a large population of "Food Allergic" children, but are a "regular education" classroom none-the-less? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

I understand MommaBear to be saying that it's unlikely a school would retaliate by placing a child who did not *need* "Special Ed" services in a "Special Ed" classroom . . in part, because these services are highly valued and coveted. I think MB might be saying that it isn't "punishment" at all . . .?

But I understand the fear. Definitely. I hope by sharing my story I made that clear.

I think what everyone here shares is the belief that an appropriate assessment of our child's needs must be made by the school. . . and then those needs (unique or not) need to be met by the school.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] No offense taken. And you are right, my son hasn't been in a special ed class. There is one special ed class at his school -- and while I realize that not all special ed classes fit into the stereotype, this one does. You always talk about your own unique, individualized situation -- well, is it possible for you to step outside of your own unique situation, and see that elsewhere in this country there are still those stereotypical special ed classes. [/b]

Are you saying MY school district is more progressive than your own?? I mean, despite the fact they don't pass out "class lists" with phone numbers and addresses. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Anywhoooo, from my perspective, the "special ed" class exists [i]wherever the child is placed[/i]. Even in a "regular" (or "gifted" for that matter) education classroom. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] And especially NOT in the minds of those freaked out by the mere mention of it.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]I understand MommaBear to be saying that it's unlikely a school would retaliate by placing a child who did not *need* "Special Ed" services in a "Special Ed" classroom . . in part, because these services are highly valued and coveted. I think MB might be saying that it isn't "punishment" at all . . .?[/b]

absolutely. and hey, right now, I probably couldn't think of anything more fascinating to watch than a school district brought before a Due Process hearing trying to substantiate the need to place a child in a "Special Education" Anything without the [i]documentation[/i] to back it up. Let alone a *proper* evaluation, full case study, not limited in scope a KWIM? But I digress........and my creative streak would benefit from some inspiration. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:

[b]I think what everyone here shares is the belief that an appropriate assessment of our child's needs must be made by the school. . . and then those needs (unique or not) need to be met by the school.

[/b]

absolutely.

On Jul 11, 2006

[b]Oh. Lord.[/b]

I think the same thing sometimes -- 'cept the Lord part is different, but same sentiment without the religiosity - just an expletive.

[b]Don't ya know that a child would need to go through a long evaluation process that would qualify them for such classes?? They don't let just anybody in. (at least how I understand it and from my own *unique* situation)[/b]

Yes, I know that there is a long evaluation. I got the paperwork. Lots of it. Pretty long process -- but I didn't overlook the possibility of someone who isn't interested in designating my child, wanting to put us through it because they could. Maybe you've been lucky enough in life, not to have very many people who would fu&* with you cause they had the ability to do so.

[b]Oh, wait, you told me your child wasn't in "special education" classes......[/b]

Glad you at least read the post.......

[b]Or, are you referring to classes that have a large population of "Food Allergic" children, but are a "regular education" classroom none-the-less?[/b]

I have a comment for this, but I save those types of things for 'OFF Topic'.

On Jul 11, 2006

I feel I'm about to get bashed. . . but I need to get this out. I feel where MB is coming from. [i]I think[/i].

I've posted often that Mariah is also LD, and she has an IEP for it. I'm trying to figure out my feelings right now, and it [i]hurts and offends[/i] *me*, personally, that it might be considered "punishment" or "retaliation" for another child to be "placed" in a classroom with her.

Now, that said, she isn't in a "Special Ed" classroom because they don't exist in our school.

And that said, she's also in the "gifted" program, and there is a special, designated classroom for it . . . one which other parents ARE elbowing one another to get their kids into.

Labels. Stereotypes. They exist and are real. No doubt.

On Jul 11, 2006

Didnt mean to offend MB and I am sorry if I have. I am just trying to state what my worries were (crime?) Our school does have several special education classes for children with learning disabilities and I am glad that they do for those who need it. All I am saying is that I dont want my child who doesnt need special classes for children with learning disabilites to be placed in special classes due to her allergy...that is all I am saying. And if it can happen with 504, then I want no part of it. I dont want her pa/ta statue to hold back her education level, learning ability, or being with her classmates in the least. This thread is about 504 and questions, right? I was just wondering about 504, disability status and Special Education...dont mean to offend anyone! And lables are words to discribe things...how are we supposed to get our question asked if you have no idea what we are talking about ('Special Ed''Gifted'..isnt PA a lable)?

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

[b]I understand MommaBear to be saying that it's unlikely a school would retaliate by placing a child who did not *need* "Special Ed" services in a "Special Ed" classroom . . in part, because these services are highly valued and coveted. I think MB might be saying that it isn't "punishment" at all . . .?[/b]

Key word is unlikely. Life can be made difficult. Again, maybe everyone here has had a walk in the park with all the administration they've dealt with, teachers their kids have had and parents of students. It must be great. For me, unlikely still indicates possibility. The same arguements could be thrown back as a reason to deny accommodations for FA's. It is unlikely that your child will have a reaction -- but many of us want the 504 because of the possibility. It is unlikely they'll try to make your life he!!, but it is a possibility. I get, it isn't punishment to be in a special ed class -- do I need to write it on a chalkboard til my face turns blue or what? Frankly, this type of dialogue being taken as an indictment on special educations, is a good example of how people needle each other over technicalities. The need to be right must be a genetic thing.

[b]Are you saying MY school district is more progressive than your own?? I mean, despite the fact they don't pass out "class lists" with phone numbers and addresses[/b]

It very well might be. It probably is. So what? Does it do something for you if your school district is more progressive? To me, it is great if there are school districts out there that are progressive. Kudos to them. I'm stuck with mine though, and the people in it.

On Jul 11, 2006

Helen, I know you don't mean to offend me or anyone. Nor me, you. But it [i]can [/i]hurt. That's my point. I wanted to share that because I hope others will try to understand that. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Your questions are absolutely valid, and I admire you asking them. Keep asking them. Please.

I seem to agree with all sides here. Or at least I feel that I've experienced both sides. I guess I'm just trying to shed some light on perspectives, that's all.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]All I am saying is that I dont want my child who doesnt need special classes for children with learning disabilites to be placed in special classes due to her allergy... And if it can happen with 504, then I want no part of it. I dont want her pa/ta statue to hold back her education level, learning ability, or being with her classmates in the least. [/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I agree 100%.

On Jul 11, 2006

I also think that it is at least possible that medical 504 kids (FA, diabetes) could be pulled into SpEd pullouts for the specific reasoning that it provides (for the school district anyway) an environment which is more tightly controlled to begin with, and is often smaller with higher teacher:student ratios.

I also agree that it can be punishment for [i]any[/i] student to be placed in an environment which is unduly restrictive. No matter how you label the child.

But really-- look at it this way. If you pursue a 504, aren't these kinds of things actually slightly [i]less[/i] likely to occur? I mean, because there is a legally enforcable paper trail behind any retaliation that might rear its head. Without a 504, are such things really [i]less[/i] likely to happen in such a negative environment?

I mean, if the SD in question is willing to engage in that kind of behavior with a legally protected student, what makes you think it will be less likely to happen if the student in question is only identified "informally?"

Don't be afraid of the SpEd label-- all children with special needs in an educational setting are technically "SpEd," but it certainly doesn't mean they are all held in some kind of "holding pen" or anything. Sheesh.

There are two stereotypes worth fighting-- one for yourself and one for the outside world's view. The one battle you have to wage with yourself is to admit that your child is, in fact, "disabled." Nobody likes that word. My daughter is not flawed, dammit... but she is disabled under the law. Parents of diabetic children fight these same internal battles. But you have to come to peace with that one, or you will never be able to successfully advocate for your child. Why?

Because battle number two is with old-time school administrators and teachers who refuse to think of a FA/diabetes/asthma as a "disability," which warrants protection under the law. After all-- this law is to protect kids with really severe limitations. Kids with CP and severe RA. Kids with cancer and AIDS. 'You just want your kid to get "special treatment" you nut-job....' To combat this attitude, you need to understand and embrace how disability law applies to your child and why. This way you can effectively explain why such protections are genuinely [i]needed[/i] for your apparently healthy, 'normal' kid.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img] (Stepping down from soapbox...)

Personally? I prefer the term "medically fragile," because I feel it very accurately describes my child and commands the proper respect for her needs with others. Without using the D-word. (Disabled) But under the law, the D-word is the one that counts. Don't fear it.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] Maybe you've been lucky enough in life, not to have very many people who would fu&* with you cause they had the ability to do so. [/b]

I'm surprised [i]you[/i], of all people, assume this. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] It is incorrect, by the way. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Quote:

[b] Glad you at least read the post.......[/b]

oar just sarprized i kun read? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

Thanks Gail. And again, I am sorry if I offended anyone. Hey, I have a label...I am disabled. I have a spinal injury and there are many physical activities that I cannot do. Just had back surgery in mid May and not feeling benefit from it. I know how it feels to have a lable, I have to deal with mine every time I step out of the house, "What happened to your back?" I too have a disability hearing...mine is next Monday. It is very hard to get some disability recognized while others come so easy from others to determine (people pointing and staring at the devise on my back). With that said, I dont want to have to go thru all the **** that I have had to go thru trying to get the help that I NEED. I am sure it is a different process. I want to do what is best for her, but with 504, it is hard to tell if it is best for her and that is why I am still looking into it. So feel free to point and snicker at my 'disability' lable. I guess I get a little blunt about things and mostly because I like to get my questions out there without a lot of beating around the bush so to speak...sorry if I offened! Not intentional!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]I also think that it is at least possible that medical 504 kids (FA, diabetes) could be pulled into SpEd pullouts for the specific reasoning that it provides (for the school district anyway) an environment which is more tightly controlled to begin with, and is often smaller with higher teacher:student ratios.

[/b]

show me on a [i]designation[/i] form where this is possible.

Oh, wait, I don't know if a [i]504[/i] has a designation form like the one I'm used to. I know that in *my* [i]IEP[/i], there were lots of boxes to check. To qualify, to sort, to [i]determine[/i] what setting is appropriate. It's not something you just choose. Out of convienience, I mean. And even if you qualify, a parent/guardians consent is necessary. But hey, maybe that is just me. My IDEA. But I was under the impression it was a federal law. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I could be wrong.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

I mean, [b]LEAST RESTRICTIVE ENVIRONMENT[/b]. Not the [b]MOST CONVIENIENT ENVIRONMENT[/b]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]

Life can be made difficult. [/b]

You are preaching to the choir. We all have our gifts, I guess. So I won't let your singing surprise me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

[b]Again, maybe everyone here has had a walk in the park with all the administration they've dealt with, teachers their kids have had and parents of students. It must be great.[/b]

Whodawhat??!

WhatyoutalkinaboutWillis???

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b] I mean, if the SD in question is willing to engage in that kind of behavior with a legally protected student, what makes you think it will be less likely to happen if the student in question is only identified "informally?"

Don't be afraid of the SpEd label-- all children with special needs in an educational setting are technically "SpEd," but it certainly doesn't mean they are all held in some kind of "holding pen" or anything. Sheesh.

There are two stereotypes worth fighting-- one for yourself and one for the outside world's view. The one battle you have to wage with yourself is to admit that your child is, in fact, "disabled." Nobody likes that word. My daughter is not flawed, dammit... but she is disabled under the law. Parents of diabetic children fight these same internal battles. But you have to come to peace with that one, or you will never be able to successfully advocate for your child. Why?

Because battle number two is with old-time school administrators and teachers who refuse to think of a FA/diabetes/asthma as a "disability," which warrants protection under the law. After all-- this law is to protect kids with really severe limitations. Kids with CP and severe RA. Kids with cancer and AIDS. 'You just want your kid to get "special treatment" you nut-job....' To combat this attitude, you need to understand and embrace how disability law applies to your child and why. This way you can effectively explain why such protections are genuinely [i]needed[/i] for your apparently healthy, 'normal' kid.

[/b]

worth repeating. and definitely a subject worth confronting in a thread like this.

On Jul 11, 2006

I wanted to highlight this section because I really agree:

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]I also agree that it can be punishment for [i]any[/i] student to be placed in an environment which is unduly restrictive. No matter how you label the child.

But really-- look at it this way. If you pursue a 504, aren't these kinds of things actually slightly [i]less[/i] likely to occur? I mean, because there is a legally enforcable paper trail behind any retaliation that might rear its head. Without a 504, are such things really [i]less[/i] likely to happen in such a negative environment?

I mean, if the SD in question is willing to engage in that kind of behavior with a legally protected student, what makes you think it will be less likely to happen if the student in question is only identified "informally?"[/b]

That sorta reminds me of [b]Myth #5:

[i]If a School District is really resistant to a 504 Designation, the fight might not be worth it.[/b]

I almost think the exact opposite is true: if your School District is resistant to considering a Section 504 for your child, consider it a red flag. I think that if your SD is reluctant or outright objects to a Section 504 designation for your child, then you will encounter problems down the road no matter what. You need to ask yourself: why is the School District not wanting to be accountable?[/i]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] show me on a [i]designation[/i] form where this is possible.

Oh, wait, I don't know if a [i]504[/i] has a designation form like the one I'm used to. [/b]

Yes, it does.... but we all know that "least restrictive" can often pose as it's less well-recognized sibling "most convenient for [i]us[/i]..." especially when dealing with an uncooperative SD. Not that it is legal, but with particularly cantakerous administrators, that doesn't necessarily stop them from trying.

(Passive-aggressive technique...) The idea being that they can present it to you as an appropriate solution to everyone's problems... and when you as a parent don't concur, WHOA! Look who isn't being cooperative all of a sudden? Who's the problem [i]now?[/i] KWIM?

I [i]do[/i] think that requesting a 504 has the potential to open you up for this sort of thing. (shrug) You are probably correct to suggest that they couldn't move a non-LD child into a class specifically designed to handle LDs without a documentable reason... but that might not stop them from moving your child somewhere inappropriate that [i]doesn't[/i] require documentation. Whatever they feel like calling it.

On another note, however, I really think that it is a mistake to [i]assume[/i] that your SD is looking to establish an adversarial relationship with us as parents. As long as you and your allergist both understand why you need a 504, all [i]should[/i] be well. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

Question,if I may, the place I should start with the 504 is dd's allergist? Sorry, I just really dont know where to start. I know what I want, what I expect, I have papers like the papers you all have sent links to, I just dont know where to take the papers and my expectations.

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 11, 2006

I think the best way to approach it is to find out how much your allergist knows about 504 and FA/asthma. If he/she has never heard of it, you will need to provide him/her with educational materials to get started with. Don't ask for more until you are sure that your allergist is comfortable with what you are asking for.

The rest will depend upon your own relationship with your doctor. (ie-- do you write a letter for him to photocopy and sign, or do you hope she can do a good job with some pointed advice, etc...)

I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised. And if you get a really terribly vibe-- nothing lost. Your SD won't know and you can find an allergist who knows more about FA.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

Helen, there's some great advice here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001705.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001705.html[/url] Gail

IMO it's wise to stay in 'research mode' for a long time and get your ducks in a row (including having your allergist on board with his specifically worded letter ) before even approaching the school.

On Jul 11, 2006

Thank you so much! We recently changed allergists so the one we have is new to us, but recommended to us by about 4 other moms of children with outdoor allergies and asthma. I have met with him 2ce around the end of the school year. I will get with him on it. Thank you again. You have all been a huge help with info that we can all use.

Gail, will do! Dont want to jump into anything that I am not totally on-board with. Thanks!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

[b]And even if you qualify, a parent/guardians consent is necessary. But hey, maybe that is just me. My IDEA. But I was under the impression it was a federal law. I could be wrong[/b]

Where does Child Find fit into all of that? Can it be taken out of your hands with that facet of the ADA?

Also,

[b][i]Originally posted by gvmom: Maybe you've been lucky enough in life, not to have very many people who would fu&* with you cause they had the ability to do so. [/b][/i] --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[b]I'm surprised you, of all people, assume this. It is incorrect, by the way.[/b]

I don't assume it. From what you have posted in the past, you of all people would be someone I would assume would have plenty of experience understanding people's ability to fu&* with you cause they could. You surprised me using the notion that it would be unlikely. Don't we all love statistics around here? Weren't you the one that wasn't a gambling woman? Or are you choosing ponies with Vharlow?

How many of us have learned that with our children, making assumptions about the kindness of others could be deadly? I am not goint to leave it out of the realm of possibility if it falls into the unlikely category -- especially if it is with my children's FA's. Most people do the right thing, but to count on that would be foolish.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]

(Passive-aggressive technique...) The idea being that they can present it to you as an appropriate solution to everyone's problems... and when you as a parent don't concur, WHOA! Look who isn't being cooperative all of a sudden? Who's the problem [i]now?[/i] KWIM?

[/b]

LOL. No, I don't. (Remember, [i]I'm a pompous beotch[/i].) I have stones. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] Well, at least it's been said I reason like I have a male brain.) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

I mean, I'm willing to go to the mat, I've been to the mat, and I took home the belt. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] Actually, I didn't have to take them to the mat, I just presented them with my [i]rationale[/i]. Logic. Perseverative pomposity (<> ).

I didn't even have an attorney. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Maybe it's just me. But hey, it's been said I'm the annoying type. And a bit passive-aggressive. [i]Innocent[/i], even. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Obnoxious.

I also picked out some great nail polish and lipstick in a wicked [i]Red[/i].

Of course, I had to be able to see [b]The Big Picture[/b] (or at least a glimpse of it). Despite my own individual, unique, highly personal situation.

kwIm?

Again, no advice, it could all just be luck. Or my obnoxious nature. Pomposity (hey, I like that). Beotchyness. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Absolutely not. Individual Mileage May Vary. I mean, I still tinker with the idea of obtaining a lawyer. Just because, I mean.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Where does Child Find fit into all of that? Can it be taken out of your hands with that facet of the ADA?

[/b]

My youngest was in "Early Childhood" for three years. They needed my permission to place him there. Bringing him to the district wide eval was [i]at my discretion[/i].

BTW, he attended "Full Day Kindergarten" with "regular education" peers this last school year. They have refused to re-evaluate him under IDEA. All my begging didn't change their minds. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] It has, however, been suggested he is [i]gifted[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] (ack, spit, [i]ptooey[/i])

But hey, my impressions (optional, discretionary, with my permission) could be wrong. Maybe it was just me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]I don't assume it. From what you have posted in the past, you of all people would be someone I would assume would have plenty of experience understanding people's ability to fu&* with you cause they could. You surprised me using the notion that it would be unlikely.[/b]

You're good at researching my posts so show me [i]where I ever gave you the impression that I used "the notion that it would be unlikely" people would &&&& with me.

Just because they might doesn't phase me. Maybe it's because it's been said I'm [i]a lightening rod for trouble[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

And where did I say it would be highly unlikely school districts would &&&& with anyone?

HAVEN'T YOU READ MY "IEP VS. 504" THREAD OR THE THREADS RELATED TO IT, WOMAN???? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

and, btw, gvmom, "Child Find" did a [i]full case study[/i] on my youngest.

On Jul 11, 2006

Hey--from one beeyatch to another? I don't have a passive-aggressive bone in my body. (Boys like that. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] )

But it doesn't mean that I don't have an advanced degree from [i]that[/i] school of hard knocks.

My family contains Zen masters of the genre. I tell ya.

SO I certainly recognize the tactic and can anticipate when those with such inclinations are likely to be unable to control the impulse.

Usually all I can do is brace myself and grit my teeth.... [i]"wait for it.... wait for it..." [/i]

But I have an innate willingness to go to the mat, myself. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Comes in handy. As long as you can embrace your inner Beeyatch.

On Jul 11, 2006

gvmom, I've been thinking about this:

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]I understand MommaBear to be saying that it's unlikely a school would retaliate by placing a child who did not *need* "Special Ed" services in a "Special Ed" classroom . . [/b]

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Key word is unlikely. Life can be made difficult. Again, maybe everyone here has had a walk in the park with all the administration they've dealt with, teachers their kids have had and parents of students. It must be great. For me, unlikely still indicates possibility. The same arguements could be thrown back as a reason to deny accommodations for FA's. It is unlikely that your child will have a reaction -- but many of us want the 504 because of the possibility. It is unlikely they'll try to make your life he!!, but it is a possibility. [/b]

My question is, are children who do [i]not [/i]have a Section 504 designation (or IDEA-OHI designation) entitled to the right to a "Least Restrictive Environment"?

No, I don't think so. All children are entitled to FAPE, but only those who are 'disabled' are entitled to LRE.

On Jul 11, 2006

THANK YOU. This was what I was getting at.

Ineffectually.

On Jul 11, 2006

Just getting caught up and I too agree!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]Ineffectually.[/b]

No way. . .

On Jul 11, 2006

[b][i]quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by gvmom: I don't assume it. From what you have posted in the past, you of all people would be someone I would assume would have plenty of experience understanding people's ability to fu&* with you cause they could. You surprised me using the notion that it would be unlikely.[/b][/i] --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[b]You're good at researching my posts so show me where I ever gave you the impression that I used "the notion that it would be unlikely" people would &&&& with me. [/b]

I don't research your posts, remember that is your job. And would you please reread my statement. You clearly aren't getting what I'm saying.

[b]Just because they might doesn't phase me. Maybe it's because it's been said I'm [i]a lightening rod for trouble.[/b]

Has nothing to do with whether you would be phased or not, and everything to do with if they would.

[b]And where did I say it would be highly unlikely school districts would &&&& with anyone?

HAVEN'T YOU READ MY "IEP VS. 504" THREAD OR THE THREADS RELATED TO IT, WOMAN???? [/b]

DUH.

On Jul 11, 2006

gvmom. . . [i]tapping you lightly on the shoulder. . .[/i]

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]gvmom, I've been thinking about this:

My question is, are children who do [i]not [/i]have a Section 504 designation (or IDEA-OHI designation) entitled to the right to a "Least Restrictive Environment"?

No, I don't think so. All children are entitled to FAPE, but only those who are 'disabled' are entitled to LRE.[/b]

I'm curious, What do you think about this?

Do you see it as a Catch 22?

On Jul 11, 2006

I just want to point out that assigning PA kids to special ed classes based solely on their PA is not unprecedented:

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001086.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001086.html[/url]

The following quote is from the thread above:

Quote:

[b]The following input may not be useful but just wanted to comment on my recent experience with the public school. The district disability coordinator insisted that my dc go to a school that is predominately handicapped because it has a full-time nurse. She was also insistent that she not be put under Section 504 (because the district has to pay for everything..Wanted her in the IDEA program because the fed. gov. picks up the tab). She said she would be classified handicapped on paper but would receive the same education as non-handicapped students. The school test scores were terrible at all grade levels and it was considerable distance from our home. The school board did approve a rezone transfer to another school just 2 miles from my home (had great test scores) but only a part-time nurse. I thought everything was finally going to work out. The principal seemed willing to work with us but I could tell when I started mentioned what would have to be done at the school to keep my dc safe (like monitoring her in the cafeteria, teachers trained to use Epi-pen) that she seemed more reluctant. I found out a couple days later that the school receives funds for a cafeteria monitor but spends it on something else. The students are in charge of cleaning where they ate (Kind. - 6th grade). Also, there is a child who has brain seizures at the school and the teachers are not allowed to give the child a pill (a non invasive treatment) which stops the seizure. If the nurse isn't around, the parent is called and they drive to the school and give the med....while the student suffers. I was so appalled that the district would be more concerned about lawsuits than meeting the needs of this child that I walked away. I had been told numerous times by teachers at other schools that they are told not to get involved. I think the school might have attempted some of the easier preventative measures we were going to ask for..but my dh and I were concerned if she did go into shock (and the part-time nurse wasn't around) they would call 911 and just stand by and watch her die. We are beginning our 6th year of h.s.ing tomorrow. [/b]

Cathy

------------------ Mom to 7 yr old PA/TNA daughter and 3 1/2 yr old son who is allergic to eggs.

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

[b]My question is, are children who do not have a Section 504 designation (or IDEA-OHI designation) entitled to the right to a "Least Restrictive Environment"?[/b]

Why not?

[b]No, I don't think so. All children are entitled to FAPE, but only those who are 'disabled' are entitled to LRE.[/b]

Yes, all children are entitled to FAPE. Is denying children who are not disabled LRE reverse discrimmination?

Also, nothing prohibits the administrators to jerk you around with LRE. Yes, the children entitled to LRE are supposed to start out in classrooms, not segregated. Who is to say though that some smart a$$ coordinator wouldn't say that there is no way within the confines of a regular classroom that the accommodations asked for with respect to FA's can't be made? I mean, they could go to the 'n'th degree on something like this, right? Yes, we agree completely nut free. But how do you control the residues that could be on children when they come to school? How do you control the environment enough? You want x,y,z --- well, let's add on a few because you get your designation, but we'll put your kid in a bubble. Them having a reaction could prove so disruptive to the other students......the only way to guarantee safety.......... sure.......

And yes, parents have to agree, you have rights as a parent -- but they have the ability to keep coming up with different ideas, with how long between meetings while your kid sits where they are at what stage. How many of us have heard 'reasonable accommodations'? I heard it. Heard it in such a way it made my stomach turn. Yes, there is a ruling on that. Litigate it. But at some point, fighting about every little thing -- for me -- isn't something or somewhere I was gonna go.

I think, so far, we've gotten it lucky. It doesn't mean I don't anticipate cr@p coming our way. It doesn't mean I feel free and clear. I know that I don't want to spend my time fighting, no matter how right I am. There is a line for me. There is a line for DH. There are issues that we worry about. There are facets of peoples behavior that we wish we never got to see --- but they exist. So far, we have been able to line up our 'reasonable accommodations' with the principals, and come up with something workable. It doesn't mean that when school starts that will remain the same. She could put the screws to us if the PTA stamps their feet, if other parents in the class that our son is in bitch and moan. To not recognize the possibilities associated with the processes you involve yourself in -- well, it isn't the way I like to do things. You can't unring a bell.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]To not recognize the possibilities associated with the processes you involve yourself in -- well, it isn't the way I like to do things. [/b]

Nor I.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

[b]gvmom. . . tapping you lightly on the shoulder. . .

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Gail W: gvmom, I've been thinking about this: My question is, are children who do not have a Section 504 designation (or IDEA-OHI designation) entitled to the right to a "Least Restrictive Environment"?

No, I don't think so. All children are entitled to FAPE, but only those who are 'disabled' are entitled to LRE.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm curious, What do you think about this?

Do you see it as a Catch 22? [/b]

I have a 10 foot pole that is gathering dust if you'd like to borrow it....... thanks for being gentle (thought that was cute actually).

To me, there is an element of irony in all of these things. Yes, to get LRE for your child, an entitlement that basically discrimminates against others who you wish to have your child included with. Hmmmmm -- we wrestled with this type of notion while deciding about the 504 --- specifically with lunch.

I know I've written before, but for us eating on the ground was unthinkable. Forget the FA's or not. With FA's it was just mindblowing to think that it would even be 'on the table' (so to speak) as an option. To get a table for our child, because of a 504, gives him a benefit denied to the other students -- which we believe they have an inherent right to. So what do you do? Ethically we believe all students should have a proper place to eat -- not on the nasty, dirty blacktop. They all have the right to sit at a clean table, with dignity. They don't have recourse. We do. We can get our table with the 504. Reverse discrimmination? Our child is special, therefore gets a table? Set apart. His class will be separate and unequal, with greater benefits than their peers when the year starts. What should we have done? Does he get the same experience as his peers -- FAPE -- eat on the ground, or does he get special treatment which gives him FAPE with the effect of creating a safer environment with a smaller group of children, but completely different than what the majority of his peers experience?

I don't know if I've explained that right gotta go change the laundry. I'm confident anything I've missed will be pointed out to me...............................

BTW --- THANK YOU MOMCAT!

[This message has been edited by gvmom (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] Is denying children who are not disabled LRE reverse discrimmination?[/b]

No. By definition, those who are not disabled are already in the least restrictive environment.

Cathy

------------------ Mom to 7 yr old PA/TNA daughter and 3 1/2 yr old son who is allergic to eggs.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: My question is, are children who do not have a Section 504 designation (or IDEA-OHI designation) entitled to the right to a "Least Restrictive Environment"?[/]

[b]Why not?[/b]

Because 'Least Restrictive Environment' is applied to children who have been deemed eligible for protection under Section 504.

On Jul 11, 2006

Couldn't some parents argue that their children are being discrimminated against by not receiving LRE? Why couldn't they argue that not having an individualized plan, that fostered the best learning environment for their child, was restrictive because it isn't available within the 'normal' classroom setting? Couldn't they argue that the ability of the disabled students to get the schools to cater to the special needs of a small group of students, discrimminated against their child since their individual needs wouldn't be met -- that they would be lumped in with the masses? An environment that doesn't allow for the blossoming of a child's intellectual, social and academic development could be considered restrictive, even if taken from the viewpoint of a non-disabled child, kept in a class that didn't progress at the same pace. Why couldn't someone then believe that the regular classroom was restrictive -- and then becomes discrimminatory if LRE only applies to those with a disability?

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]The one battle you have to wage with yourself is to admit that your child is, in fact, "disabled."[/b]

I respectfully disagree. I have had PA all my life and have never once thought of myself as disabled. PA does not stop me from participating in any of life's activities. Being PA does not mean you are disabled, as I participate in all of life's activities.. travel to China, eat in restaurants, go to movies, I do everything.

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]But you have to come to peace with that one, or you will never be able to successfully advocate for your child.[/b]

I disagree once more. My parents and myself have never considered myself to be disabled at all... and I would say we have handled PA very successfully.

[b]I am not disabled as there's nothing a non-PA person can do that I cannot do (with the exception of eating peanuts)[/b]

[This message has been edited by erik (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Couldn't some parents argue that their children are being discrimminated against by not receiving LRE? Why couldn't they argue that not having an individualized plan, that fostered the best learning environment for their child, was restrictive because it isn't available within the 'normal' classroom setting? Couldn't they argue that the ability of the disabled students to get the schools to cater to the special needs of a small group of students, discrimminated against their child since their individual needs wouldn't be met -- that they would be lumped in with the masses? An environment that doesn't allow for the blossoming of a child's intellectual, social and academic development could be considered restrictive, even if taken from the viewpoint of a non-disabled child, kept in a class that didn't progress at the same pace. Why couldn't someone then believe that the regular classroom was restrictive -- and then becomes discrimminatory if LRE only applies to those with a disability?[/b]

Well, they could make that argument, but I would say that on the whole, public school special ed classes are not perfectly meeting the needs of the disabled any more than their regular ed classes are perfectly meeting the needs of everyone else. It seems to me that the intent of the law (which is by no means perfectly applied) is to provide an appropriate, but not necessarily ideal, environment to allow learning to take place. We all know that even with a 504 plan, the accommodations we end up with are often less than ideal! The same is true for children with other disabilities in the public school system.

Cathy

------------------ Mom to 7 yr old PA/TNA daughter and 3 1/2 yr old son who is allergic to eggs.

On Jul 11, 2006

Hi Erik!!!

You know that I love your approach to life, and it is exactly what I hope to instill in Mariah. You're a great role model for us. I fully to expect Mariah to continue to travel, eat out at restaurants, go to movies, and everything else. At this very moment she's at overnight camp. (Have you checked out her adorable photo in Off Topic? [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum22/HTML/003665.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum22/HTML/003665.html[/url]

But I agree with the fact as stated by Corvallis Mom. . . that under the definition of the law (Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973), food allergies meet the definition of a 'disability' . I think that Mariah can do everything you've stated, Erik, *and* that she meets the definition of "disability" as defined by law. Edited to shamelessly add the link. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img]

Now edited to try to fix link. arg.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 11, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat: [b] Well, they could make that argument, but I would say that on the whole, public school special ed classes are not perfectly meeting the needs of the disabled any more than their regular ed classes are perfectly meeting the needs of everyone else. It seems to me that the intent of the law (which is by no means perfectly applied) is to provide an appropriate, but not necessarily ideal, environment to allow learning to take place. We all know that even with a 504 plan, the accommodations we end up with are often less than ideal! The same is true for children with other disabilities in the public school system.

Cathy[/b]

I was going to try to post essentially the same thing. You stated this better than I could.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 11, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]Hi Erik!!!

You know that I love your approach to life, and it is exactly what I hope to instill in Mariah. You're a great role model for us. I fully to expect Mariah to continue to travel, eat out at restaurants, go to movies, and everything else. At this very moment she's at overnight camp.

But I agree with the fact as stated by Corvallis Mom. . . that under the definition of the law (Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973), food allergies meet the definition of a 'disability' . I think that Mariah can do everything you've stated, Erik, *and* that she meets the definition of "disability" as defined by law.[/b]

Hi Gail [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Yes, I can understand how individuals with PA could be defined as "disabled" based on the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (which I know nothing about since I am in Canada.. hehe).

I guess my point is that I don't feel that my PA restricts me from anything in life (well, except for the obvious like being unable to eat Thai food, etc). Although I know PA is much more of a concern for a child at school rather than an adult too.

But as you mention, I guess you could do the things I do but also be classified as having a disability under the law (due to risks such as being in school, etc)

Thanks Gail.. I'll go check out the photo of Mariah now [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by erik: [b] I guess my point is that I don't feel that my PA restricts me from anything in life (well, except for the obvious like being unable to eat Thai food, etc). [/b]

Understood. I agree. Obtaining a Section 504 designation ("disability") is a tool parents use to advocate for their child's needs at school.

On Jul 11, 2006

[b]Well, they could make that argument, but I would say that on the whole, public school special ed classes are not perfectly meeting the needs of the disabled any more than their regular ed classes are perfectly meeting the needs of everyone else. It seems to me that the intent of the law (which is by no means perfectly applied) is to provide an appropriate, but not necessarily ideal, environment to allow learning to take place. We all know that even with a 504 plan, the accommodations we end up with are often less than ideal! The same is true for children with other disabilities in the public school system.

Cathy[/b]

They could make that argument. One would hope they wouldn't. But truly, my real point -- because really I am on the side of those here -- is that many things can be done & said to derail you. The whole idea that the unlikely won't happen doesn't work for me. If I can come up with arguments to defeat or derail those that I actually support, the motivation for those against is just as great, and the will to succeed just as strong to defeat what you are trying to do.

There is no efficacy in arguing whether it is a punishment for so called 'normal' kids to be in classes with LD kids -- especially when we really are on the same side here (I think & hope). But for some of us who but for the Food Allergies, wouldn't be venturing into the realm of the ADA, we have a worry about what else may be used to twist our arms against advocating for Food Allergic Accommodations. It would appear to me that those with at least what others might deem valid reasons to turn to the ADA regulations, have at least one slight leg up. You would be going that route without the Food Allergy -- I wouldn't.

I can understand that it is emotional for those that have LD children to find it painful to have those of us without ask questions that might make you feel as though we are stigmatizing LD children -- at least to the extent that having a child that others view as different and 'not normal' (which I have two of, since around here we are abnormal having 2 Food Allergic children, which if they continue behaving the way they do, I will have no problem selling side show tickets to view). But really, isn't there a way to step back, and see that when asking if legally the school can place your child in 'special ed' when they get designated is really something that isn't something we are wondering about as though it were a horror movie -- but as concerned parents wondering what legally a school can throw at you in order to have leverage?

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]To me, there is an element of irony in all of these things. Yes, to get LRE for your child, an entitlement that basically discrimminates against others who you wish to have your child included with. Hmmmmm -- we wrestled with this type of notion while deciding about the 504 --- specifically with lunch.[/b]

didn't I *just* post that there probably was an opportunity to be discussing peanut free tables or what?? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Quote:

[b]I know I've written before, but for us eating on the ground was unthinkable. Forget the FA's or not. With FA's it was just mindblowing to think that it would even be 'on the table' (so to speak) as an option. To get a table for our child, because of a 504, gives him a benefit denied to the other students -- which we believe they have an inherent right to. So what do you do? Ethically we believe all students should have a proper place to eat -- not on the nasty, dirty blacktop. They all have the right to sit at a clean table, with dignity. They don't have recourse. We do. We can get our table with the 504. Reverse discrimmination? Our child is special, therefore gets a table? Set apart. His class will be separate and unequal, with greater benefits than their peers when the year starts. What should we have done? Does he get the same experience as his peers -- FAPE -- eat on the ground, or does he get special treatment which gives him FAPE with the effect of creating a safer environment with a smaller group of children, but completely different than what the majority of his peers experience?[/b]

Like I *just* said previously wrt "special ed" accommodations afforded to children who qualify: "Every child should be so lucky."

Quote:

[b]I don't know if I've explained that right gotta go change the laundry. I'm confident anything I've missed will be pointed out to me...............................[/b]

just adding: [i]glad we finally agree[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by erik: [b] I disagree once more. My parents and myself have never considered myself to be disabled at all... and I would say we have handled PA very successfully.

[b]I am not disabled as there's nothing a non-PA person can do that I cannot do (with the exception of eating peanuts)[/b]

[This message has been edited by erik (edited July 11, 2006).][/b]

I am so glad you posted, Erik!

This is my point exactly-- I loathe using this term for my daughter. Because personally? I don't see her in that light. But legally? I have to go there mentally in order to do what is appropriate for her to be reasonably safe in a school environment.

This is why I used this term-- it is the one that schools and the law use. It is [i]not[/i] one that most of us here are inherently very comfortable applying to someone with FA. Then again, I have known diabetics who hated it just as much.

Hate the term, but use the law. That was my real point. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I mean, really-- "disabled"? My daughter?? Don't make me laugh. She does pretty much what she wants to-- we just have to make adjustments for it to happen sometimes.

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] I can understand that it is emotional for those that have LD children to find it painful to have those of us without ask questions that might make you feel as though we are stigmatizing LD children -- at least to the extent that having a child that others view as different and 'not normal' (which I have two of, since around here we are abnormal having 2 Food Allergic children, which if they continue behaving the way they do, I will have no problem selling side show tickets to view). But really, isn't there a way to step back, and see that when asking if legally the school can place your child in 'special ed' when they get designated is really something that isn't something we are wondering about as though it were a horror movie -- but as concerned parents wondering what legally a school can throw at you in order to have leverage?

[/b]

I can't step back. The notion that all, or even the majority of special ed "classrooms" are self contained would make me chuckle if I didn't find it ridiculous.

My child is in a "special ed" classroom. It's a "regular education classroom". It's a "gifted" classroom. [i]It's where-ever he is.[/i] I mean, some people just don't "get-it", do they?

[b]It's like his allergy.[/b] Modifications are made so that he can participate with his [i]non-disabled[/i] peers.

As it is possible to do that with his allergy, it is indeed possible to do it with a learning disablity. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] (Although just as some parents of non-food allergic children can't fathom a classroom that accommodates children of *any* food allergy, neither can some parents of "regular education" children fathom that *their* child's classroom houses "special education" children that participate, yea.........[i]compete[/i] alongside their own children (and do so in a [i]stellar[/i] fashion), [b]once barriers are removed.[/b]

Or at least they might not be aware of it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

But hey, some-things you just have to live for yourself to understand.

Special education classrooms from a "horror movie" indeed.

I mean, I haven't seen one yet. I mean, nothing any more <<>> than rooms I've seen filled with "regular education students. Anyways, the idea that "special education" classrooms are *supposed* to stir up feelings of "horror movies" in the hearts of parents of "regular education" students I find.............sad.

I mean, does it strike folk as a "horror movie" that more than just a handful of "Special Education" students may be parked right next to their children in a "Regular" (or "Gifted") education "classroom"? Because, personally? I've found it more the "norm" than the [i]exception[/i].

That said, my child was in a "self-contained" classroom several years back. The same child who now [i]competes[/i] and even surpasses his "regular education" [i]peers[/i].

Go Figure. That's who was in *that* classroom.

Now, *that said*, many parents I met from *that* classroom had *insisted* their children (all of whom I found to be very [i]normal[/i], and some absolutely precious, personable, and..............humanitarian), again, *insisted* their children remain in such a classroom to [i]protect them[/i]. From what, I indeed can relate.

It was a HUGE step for me to expose MY child to *that* environment. To [i]mainstream[/i] him, I mean.

Fifth grade in a mainstream classroom, littered with "normal" peers terrifies me. Like a "horror movie" might.

[i]And I feel, from my personal experience, my fears are *totally* justified.[/i] Not based on assumptions, as I have seen both, and been on the receiving end of what some "normal", "regular education" peers in Middle School can dish out.

But hey, no advice, just me, lightening rod, blah blah blah.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] Because 'Least Restrictive Environment' is applied to children who have been deemed eligible for protection under Section 504. [/b]

You know, Gail, each and everytime you point this out, I am floored by insight you have. Time and time again.

Wonderful point. Understood. Magnificent deduction. I slap myself everytime I miss something like that when it is right in front of my face. Ouch. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] It's one of those things that bite me right in the.....before I realize: "Wow! how did I miss that???"

Again, [i]magnificent[/i] point.

On Jul 11, 2006

oh, and "IDEA" too. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

On Jul 11, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [B But really, isn't there a way to step back, and see that when asking if legally the school can place your child in 'special ed' when they get designated [/B]

Isn't that what getting [i]designated[/i] is? Under section 504.

Section 504 34 C.F.R. 104.33 b:

"(b) Appropriate education. (1) For the purpose of this subpart, the provision of an appropriate education is the provision of regular or [b]special education[/b] and related aids and services that (i) are designed to meet individual educational needs of handicapped persons as adequately as the needs of nonhandicapped persons are met and (ii) are based upon adherence to procedures that satisfy the requirements of 104.34, 104.35, and 104.36."

and gvmom, this might be of interest to you:

[url="http://www.uiowa.edu/infotech/Section504.htm"]http://www.uiowa.edu/infotech/Section504.htm[/url]

to quote:

[i]"A school must place a child in the regular educational environment unless the school demonstrates that the education of the child in the regular environment with the use of supplementary aids and services cannot be achieved satisfactorily. See 34 C.F.R.

On Jul 12, 2006

Here is the point at which sometimes I am not sure whether you read a post, whether you just want to make your own special point, or you just want to stir up shi+.

Are you missing my point? Are you ignoring my point -- or are you just trying to twist it all up for the fun of it? I don't think this is the thread to do it in.

Great your kid is in a regular classroom. Competing with all the other kids. Clapping for you. Whatever. I don't have a problem with it. Hey, your kids are just as good as mine, or better even. Yes, that's it -- truly superior. Happy? Is that what you are looking for? Seriously, if there were special ed kids in my son's class I wouldn't care. Great. Point is, one question was asked about children who are in regular classrooms to begin with -- not designated, not even thought of to be designated by any evaluation by parents, administrators or educators, but for the fact that a parent discovers the ability to get Food Allergies deemed a disability, and hopefully force the school to put in place accommodations to keep their kid alive while at school. Are those kids then going to be put in special ed classes? Not are those kids going to be put in special ed classes said with an 'oh my god, because that would be fate worse than death' or 'Lord help me because maybe they'll catch a learning disability' -- but because of other worries that have nothing to do with the sensitivity that you have with respect to your child and the perception that people have attached a stigma to their own particular, individual, highly specialized situation.

The question really speaks to unforseen, unanticipated results of the designation. The ways a school -- administrators & educators -- can twist what you have fought for against you. You don't like the characterization that you think is implied with the 'special ed' part of the question -- well, what else is new. For pete's sake. Sit with it for a minute, then work on the answer to the question, or leave it be. Remember, this isn't an indictment on special ed, it is more a commentary on our lack of ability to really trust those we have to work with to keep our children safe. Recognize that it isn't all hand holding and Kum Ba Ya. You know that. Really, what are the percentages in favor of politics over education when you are talking with the people at the school?

On Jul 12, 2006

THANK YOU GVMOM! My question keeps getting lost in here. Thank you for keeping it risen and expressing it better than I do [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Morning TeddyAlly. No problem. It is also something that crossed my mind too, so remembering the question at hand is a bit easier. Sometimes it is easy to be derailed around here.

On Jul 12, 2006

Good morning.

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] Are you missing my point? . . . Are those kids then going to be put in special ed classes? [/b]

gvmom, I might need to borrow your pole now . . .

I understood this point to have already been validated. School administrators try all kinds of abhorrent tactics, by intent or ignorance. The link posted by Momcat is a perfect case in point.

The regulations regarding placement are pretty clear, as quoted my MommaBear. If this type of misplacement occurred (placing your FA child in a Special Ed classroom), the regulations would be clear cut ammunition to fight back.

I don't mean to refute the possibility that an administrator might attempt to misplace your child , just trying to point to how the law has clearly addressed this possibility. (That administrator wouldn't have a leg to stand on. . . )

On Jul 12, 2006

Here Gail -- handing over the pole.

But do you see that TeddyAlly's question wasn't first answered with a validation with the example Momcat put, and then with the explanation of regulations that would give one recourse. It was answered as though she were indicting Special Education and those that are receiving those services.

I mean, how many pages did it take to basically get to, 'yes, they could, but you would have legal recourse'? And btw, just because a person wouldn't have a leg to stand on, doesn't mean they wouldn't try it if they feel they could pull it off.

On Jul 12, 2006

Good morning to you both as well [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Thank you for answering my question Gail and for backing the issue. I just dont want to have to fight with anyone in the SD anymore than I already have to.

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]The regulations regarding placement are pretty clear, as quoted my MommaBear. If this type of misplacement occurred (placing your FA child in a Special Ed classroom), the regulations would be clear cut ammunition to fight back.

[/b]

Thank you Gail. I'm thinking she's not reading [i]my[/i] posts. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Here is the point at which sometimes I am not sure whether you read a post, whether you just want to make your own special point, or you just want to stir up shi+.

Are you missing my point? Are you ignoring my point -- or are you just trying to twist it all up for the fun of it? I don't think this is the thread to do it in.

Great your kid is in a regular classroom. Competing with all the other kids. Clapping for you. Whatever. I don't have a problem with it. Hey, your kids are just as good as mine, or better even. Yes, that's it -- truly superior. Happy? Is that what you are looking for? Seriously, if there were special ed kids in my son's class I wouldn't care. Great. Point is, one question was asked about children who are in regular classrooms to begin with -- not designated, not even thought of to be designated by any evaluation by parents, administrators or educators, but for the fact that a parent discovers the ability to get Food Allergies deemed a disability, and hopefully force the school to put in place accommodations to keep their kid alive while at school. Are those kids then going to be put in special ed classes? Not are those kids going to be put in special ed classes said with an 'oh my god, because that would be fate worse than death' or 'Lord help me because maybe they'll catch a learning disability' -- but because of other worries that have nothing to do with the sensitivity that you have with respect to your child and the perception that people have attached a stigma to their own particular, individual, highly specialized situation.

The question really speaks to unforseen, unanticipated results of the designation. The ways a school -- administrators & educators -- can twist what you have fought for against you. You don't like the characterization that you think is implied with the 'special ed' part of the question -- well, what else is new. For pete's sake. Sit with it for a minute, then work on the answer to the question, or leave it be. Remember, this isn't an indictment on special ed, it is more a commentary on our lack of ability to really trust those we have to work with to keep our children safe. Recognize that it isn't all hand holding and Kum Ba Ya. You know that. Really, what are the percentages in favor of politics over education when you are talking with the people at the school?

[/b]

a lot more if one is not informed. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

anywhoo. How many pages to get to this? probably a lot less if the [i]personal attack[/i] had been omitted. (Golf Clap for the poster instigating that. You must be proud.)

Step back? Ha. You try stepping back from your position of advocate for *your* child and *then* come talk to me. Talk about BS.

On Jul 12, 2006

And, just as succinctly,

if you need any accomodations at all for your child, you're still better off having legal recourse for retaliation. Should it occur. Because if you domodifications "informally" that can backfire and leave you [i]no recourse[/i] legally to deal with unsavory ways of "dealing with you" that the SD sees as perfectly reasonable. Like placing your child in a "problem kids" classroom where the teacher-student ratio is higher, but where aggregate test scores might be a grade level below the other class. KWIM?

And without a 504, one rotten apple can spoil all your efforts and everyone else's, too. Even if that rotten apple is a volunteer or parent in your child's classroom.

On Jul 12, 2006

Remember folks, school districts would rather fill the [i]limited[/i] number of positions available for Special Education Students with those who [i]actually qualify[/i] for funding. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] At least that's my impression, I could be wrong.

All children should be so lucky.

On Jul 12, 2006

But don't you get that nobody was attacking your child here by asking the question TeddyAlly did? Noone is saying you shouldn't advocate for your child. We all are advocates for our children. We all should be. We all have to be. But really, can't you discern when someone asks a question -- innocently, without the intent to indict special ed & those receiving it -- and those that are making a personal attack on your children (which by the way nobody did).

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]And, just as succinctly,

if you need any accomodations at all for your child, you're still better off having legal recourse for retaliation. Should it occur. Because if you domodifications "informally" that can backfire and leave you [i]no recourse[/i] legally to deal with unsavory ways of "dealing with you" that the SD sees as perfectly reasonable. Like placing your child in a "problem kids" classroom where the teacher-student ratio is higher, but where aggregate test scores might be a grade level below the other class. KWIM?

[/b]

Maybe this is a [i]California/Oregon[/i] thing. I don't know. Just guessing.

But My School District doesn't have "behavior classrooms". If "behavior" proves to be disruptive, unmanageable, there are [i]Therapeutic Day Schools[/i]. These children *are* [i]segregated[/i] out of the population. They do not even attend at the same school. There are [i]procedural safeguards[/i] in place that dictate how such incidences are handled. It's not "oh, we're sending you there." It's a [i]process[/i]. A Due Process, in many instances.

I have an inclination to invite "Myth Busters" to this thread. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

But hey, Oregon and California may indeed, be [i]different[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

On Jul 12, 2006

Ok, Personal Attack...I felt as though I was being attacked for mentioning the word 'Special Education', MB and at least someone was there to stick up for me and explain that my consern in my original post was not about 'Special Education being a Bad Word' just unfair to place a child that doesnt have a learning disability just because of a food allergy. I am thankful that someone was here to help me out with my wording in making my consern clear to stop the attack about 'Special Education'

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]But don't you get that nobody was attacking your child here by asking the question TeddyAlly did? Noone is saying you shouldn't advocate for your child. We all are advocates for our children. We all should be. We all have to be. But really, can't you discern when someone asks a question -- innocently, without the intent to indict special ed & those receiving it -- and those that are making a personal attack on your children (which by the way nobody did). [/b]

You come tell me that when they call your child the "Food Allergy Kid", or the "Peanut Boy", or yourself: "Overprotective".

Or don't want to be in "that" classroom, due to the presence of a Food Allergic Child. I mean, [i]do you get it[/i]?

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]I am thankful that someone was here to help me out with my wording in making my consern clear to stop the attack about 'Special Education'

[/b]

so was I. [i]Thank you Gail.[/i]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]But don't you get that nobody was attacking your child here by asking the question TeddyAlly did? [/b]

personal attack?:

Quote:

Originally posted by shoshana18: [b]teddyally, it was very clear where you were coming from.

unfortunately, you are right -- some people on these boards make it their sport to try and stick it to people. there are some rather mean-spirited individuals here who love to come across as "oh-so-innocent".

[/b]

On Jul 12, 2006

I've put the pole down now.

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]But do you see that TeddyAlly's question wasn't first answered with a validation with the example Momcat put, and then with the explanation of regulations that would give one recourse. It was answered as though she were indicting Special Education and those that are receiving those services.[/b]

No, I don't, actually. I guess maybe that's because I never thought TeddyAlly had any issue/problem with "Special Ed" itself. . . just misplacement.

I absolutely do see her/the point. It is a point that I experienced personally first hand, a point that I wanted to validate by sharing my own experience.

But. . . whatever. <> I think there are lots of possibilities that can happen during the 504 process, and it's helpful to sort through and weigh them. Personally, of all the worries and possible downsides to obtaining a 504, misplacement would be very far down on my list. Not to discount this concern, just my perspective.

If anyone would ever like to explore some of the downsides of a 504, I'd be willing and interested to do that. But I'm not sure if that's what anyone wants. . . and I don't want to derail anyone's process here.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] i'm going to have to come back to this. I mean, I'm supposed to have another "biggest fear"??

I'll start by asking: Is "Special Education" necessarily "Special Education Classes"?

and so what if it is?

[/b]

Just dont understand why you had to be so rude to begin with and so it goes on....

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] Isn't that what getting [i]designated[/i] is? Under section 504.

Section 504 34 C.F.R. 104.33 b:

"(b) Appropriate education. (1) For the purpose of this subpart, the provision of an appropriate education is the provision of regular or [b]special education[/b] and related aids and services that (i) are designed to meet individual educational needs of handicapped persons as adequately as the needs of nonhandicapped persons are met and (ii) are based upon adherence to procedures that satisfy the requirements of 104.34, 104.35, and 104.36."

and gvmom, this might be of interest to you:

[url="http://www.uiowa.edu/infotech/Section504.htm"]http://www.uiowa.edu/infotech/Section504.htm[/url]

to quote:

[i]"A school must place a child in the regular educational environment unless the school demonstrates that the education of the child in the regular environment with the use of supplementary aids and services cannot be achieved satisfactorily. See 34 C.F.R.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] Special education classrooms from a "horror movie" indeed.

I mean, I haven't seen one yet. I mean, nothing any more <<>> than rooms I've seen filled with "regular" education students. [/b]

Things are not rosy all over. Here, our education budgets have been slashed to the bone. Children with severe behavioral problems are being warehoused in "special day classes" in the name of mainstreaming. Not a day goes by at DD's school where the principal or vice principal has to drop everything and rush over to one of these classrooms because one of these kids has become violent or attempted to run off. These are kids who need someone to work with them one-on-one, but the resources are not available! These classes are a three-ring circus where very little learning is taking place. They are indeed "special ed classes from a horror movie."

Cathy

------------------ Mom to 7 yr old PA/TNA daughter and 3 1/2 yr old son who is allergic to eggs.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b] Just dont understand why you had to be so rude to begin with and so it goes on....

[/b]

read your own post. glad you posted mine. I think I was quite congenial. Placid, even.

On Jul 12, 2006

I'll ask again: [i]Is "Special Education" necessarily "Special Education Classes"?[/i]

(lol) numsie, whatever.......

On Jul 12, 2006

I did read my own post...Hey, I posted it! Maybe you should re-read it from the point I was posting it. I see you are Still missing my point even as it has been explained Several times to you!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat: [b] Things are not rosy all over. Here, our education budgets have been slashed to the bone. Children with severe behavioral problems are being warehoused in "special day classes" in the name of mainstreaming. Not a day goes by at DD's school where the principal or vice principal has to drop everything and rush over to one of these classrooms because one of these kids has become violent or attempted to run off. These are kids who need someone to work with them one-on-one, but the resources are not available! These classes are a three-ring circus where very little learning is taking place. They are indeed "special ed classes from a horror movie."

Cathy

[/b]

Sad that people's fears create places like that, huh? Honestly? I haven't seen anything in a "Behavior Disorder" that strikes me as any more disruptive than what two brothers (ages 10 and 6) can do arguing over who gets to use the tv first: the playstation or the dvd. (LOL)

gvmom, can I get an AMEN?

On Jul 12, 2006

At our school, YES, Special Education IS Special Classes!!! Special Education has their own section in the school...their own hall. Special Education students are not in with non-SE students..they are not in the same classrooms.

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] Maybe this is a [i]California/Oregon[/i] thing. I don't know. Just guessing.

But My School District doesn't have "behavior classrooms". If "behavior" proves to be disruptive, unmanageable, there are [i]Therapeutic Day Schools[/i]. [/b]

Really? Talk to your local teachers and I'll bet you anything that they do. That isn't what they call such things. Naturally. These are [i]not[/i] kids who have identifiable problems per se-- just kids who are unruly and disruptive in a classroom setting. Certain teachers have a better ability to deal with that sort of thing. Being human, that is. SO-- (following my logic here) doesn't it seem perfectly reasonable that a teacher who handles behavioral issues particularly well mught get more than their "fair share" of these kids? And no, I am not talking about kids who are threatening, mentally ill, or lewd. Those children are not in the school population for long, this is true. I'm referring to the kids who kick other kids' chairs continuously for fun, bully their classmates periodically, etc. etc. The kids whose parents don't much care about them. THOSE kids.

Don't tell me that the midwest is absent such children. Parents like that are everywhere.

Kids can be bahavior problems without qualifiying in any way, shape, or form for "SpEd" status, can't they? What infraction is required to be removed from a regular instructional environment these days, anyhow? I'm guessing that persistant name-calling or a lack of sharing in third grade wouldn't make the cut. "At risk?" Oh he** yes. But little delinquents? Well, not [i]yet[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

(Maybe it [i]is[/i] different on the West coast. Here we give such children to teachers who can handle them with compassion and respect. Like my mother-- who had more than her share over 35 yrs. You certainly don't place them with teachers who have difficulty maintaining order with them in the classroom, or they won't spend much time there.)

On Jul 12, 2006

[b]You come tell me that when they call your child the "Food Allergy Kid", or the "Peanut Boy", or yourself: "Overprotective".

Or don't want to be in "that" classroom, due to the presence of a Food Allergic Child. I mean, do you get it?[/b]

I have been there. I still am there. I get it from many different places -- not just people through school. But, I know, that here isn't where I'm getting that. Sure, maybe in 'Off Topic' -- but seriously, in a thread in Schools -- and most especially in this particular thread -- it isn't about me and my particular reasons for feeling defensive in my daily 'regular' life, in the 'real' world.

BTW, the fact that you attribute Shoshana18's post to yourself is very telling isn't it? She didn't even mention your name.

On Jul 12, 2006

[b]Sad that people's fears create places like that, huh? Honestly? I haven't seen anything in a "Behavior Disorder" that strikes me as any more disruptive than what two brothers (ages 10 and 6) can do arguing over who gets to use the tv first: the playstation or the dvd. (LOL)

gvmom, can I get an AMEN? [/b]

Or fighting over 1 piece of the thousands of pieces of Lego!

AMEN.

On Jul 12, 2006

gvmom! Thank You!!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]At our school, YES, Special Education IS Special Classes!!! Special Education has their own section in the school...their own hall. Special Education students are not in with non-SE students..they are not in the same classrooms.

[/b]

And in this case, I think your concerns are quite valid. Particularly if your SD has not done a 504/OHI designation for a health impairment in the absense of a LD.

They may be confused about physical placement of your child in such an instance.

But it is also fairly likely that you don't know about the sizeable percentage of SpEd kids who are sitting in the "regular" classrooms because all they need to have a level playing field is a single, simple adaptation that is virtually invisible.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b] And in this case, I think your concerns are quite valid. Particularly if your SD has not done a 504/OHI designation for a health impairment in the absense of a LD.

They may be confused about physical placement of your child in such an instance.

But it is also fairly likely that you don't know about the sizeable percentage of SpEd kids who are sitting in the "regular" classrooms because all they need to have a level playing field is a single, simple adaptation that is virtually invisible.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]

Good point and well taken! I am not sure about the sizeable percentages of SpEd in 'regular classrooms' and being as though dd is only in 1st grade, I am not too concerned with SpEd in regular classrooms. Mainly concerned that 504 will prompt SD to atempt to put dd in SpEd due to the 'disability status' that 504 will add. I do not want her held behind in learning or learning at a slower rate (speaking from my sister's experience) simply due to food allergies. That is my concern because of the fact that this school has CLASSROOMS for LD children. I have absolutly nothing against SpEd or LD children or Gifted children!! My only concern is that 504 might push SD into something that is not neccessary for my child.

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

[b]To the maximum extent appropriate, children with disabilities. ... should be educated with children who are not disabled, and ... special classes, separate schooling, or other removal of children with disabilities from the regular educational environment should occur only when the nature or severity of the disability is such that education in regular classes with the use of supplementary aids and services cannot be achieved satisfactorily. 20 U.S.C. 1412(a)(5)(B)[/b]

This references LRE. Least Restrictive Environment. When I read that, yes, it strikes me that the nature of it would keep one's child in a regular classroom. But I also see loopholes, or technicalities with semantics that could be used to make a parent's life difficult. "Supplementary aids and services" aren't going to keep my son from going into anaphylaxis. Controlling the classroom environment, what comes into it, what comes into it on who, and how things are cleaned & handled are what will keep him safe. A school might say that in a regular classroom that is impossible -- especially if there are enough parents ragging on them about their kids right to the peanut butter bird feeder, or the birthday cupcake, or the cultural potluck,etc.

We want schools to recognize that the severity of our child's disability is a matter of life or death. Our children could die from just smelling, touching, sitting next too, etc, microscopic amounts of nut -- right? What stops the school from saying 'you are right'! Good God! In a regular classroom we can't provide the safeguards for your child, that they are entitled to under the accommodation section of your 504. Sure, you betcha. You've got your designation as disabled. But now, being disabled, we have to make sure that we do all we are supposed to given the rights they are entitled to. Yes, LRE -- but the environment that is least restrictive here at this school isn't the regular classroom they've been in. I mean, there is no way a regular classroom can be less restrictive than this other classroom over here -- with less students -- with a higher ratio -- more attention -- more control -- more specialized. And by the way, just to make sure they are even safer at lunch, we'll stick them in this conference room over here -- or how about the office. They won't be around all the other kids eating peanut butter and jelly.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] Sad that people's fears create places like that, huh? Honestly? I haven't seen anything in a "Behavior Disorder" that strikes me as any more disruptive than what two brothers (ages 10 and 6) can do arguing over who gets to use the tv first: the playstation or the dvd. (LOL)

gvmom, can I get an AMEN?[/b]

It is a sickening, tragic waste of human potential! You may declare it doesn't exist or try to laugh it off, but it is occurring, nevertheless.

In an environment like our school district (which I have heard has the honor of "most sued school district in the state") concerns like TeddyAlly's are very real.

Cathy

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b][b]To the maximum extent appropriate, children with disabilities. ... should be educated with children who are not disabled, and ... special classes, separate schooling, or other removal of children with disabilities from the regular educational environment should occur only when the nature or severity of the disability is such that education in regular classes with the use of supplementary aids and services cannot be achieved satisfactorily. 20 U.S.C. 1412(a)(5)(B)[/b]

This references LRE. Least Restrictive Environment. When I read that, yes, it strikes me that the nature of it would keep one's child in a regular classroom. But I also see loopholes, or technicalities with semantics that could be used to make a parent's life difficult. "Supplementary aids and services" aren't going to keep my son from going into anaphylaxis. Controlling the classroom environment, what comes into it, what comes into it on who, and how things are cleaned & handled are what will keep him safe. A school might say that in a regular classroom that is impossible -- especially if there are enough parents ragging on them about their kids right to the peanut butter bird feeder, or the birthday cupcake, or the cultural potluck,etc.

We want schools to recognize that the severity of our child's disability is a matter of life or death. Our children could die from just smelling, touching, sitting next too, etc, microscopic amounts of nut -- right? What stops the school from saying 'you are right'! Good God! In a regular classroom we can't provide the safeguards for your child, that they are entitled to under the accommodation section of your 504. Sure, you betcha. You've got your designation as disabled. But now, being disabled, we have to make sure that we do all we are supposed to given the rights they are entitled to. Yes, LRE -- but the environment that is least restrictive here at this school isn't the regular classroom they've been in. I mean, there is no way a regular classroom can be less restrictive than this other classroom over here -- with less students -- with a higher ratio -- more attention -- more control -- more specialized. And by the way, just to make sure they are even safer at lunch, we'll stick them in this conference room over here -- or how about the office. They won't be around all the other kids eating peanut butter and jelly. [/b]

You are a mind-reader [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Yes.... please note that "confused" is a euphemism in my earlier post. I think that such a thing is likely to be done either out of retaliation or for the reasons outlined just above (basically, having their heads up their...well, you know).

And in the case of retaliation, "confused" isn't the term either.

504 doesn't just protect our kids physical well-being, but theoretically protects their academic and emotional well-being as well.

On Jul 12, 2006

Ok, so here's another...

Say I get a 504 and they do limit dd's education by pulling her out of class for every little project that she cannot participate in or lunch or put her in other classes, and I find that with a 504, I have shot myself in the foot (so to speak). How to you get out of 504? How do you get it to go away? I know it can be motified and all, but There Will Be Loop-holes and say I just want OUT of It...then what? Is there a way out?

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]I did read my own post...Hey, I posted it! Maybe you should re-read it from the point I was posting it. I see you are Still missing my point even as it has been explained Several times to you!

[/b]

are you being "rude"?

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] are you being "rude"? [/b]

Do I not have the right to defend myself? You have that right...

Plus, I tend to get a little b!tchy when I get picked at over and over again...And I see that you do as well.

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

TeddyAlly, would you please comment on this post of mine:

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]I guess maybe that's because I never thought TeddyAlly had any issue/problem with "Special Ed" itself. . . just misplacement.[/b]

I want to be sure that I understand you.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Gail, you hit it! I have No Issue with SpEd, just improper placement that SD COULD have due to 504. I think SpEd is wonderful for the students that benefit from it; SpEd is not my issue directly! Improper placement due to food allergies and 504 is my issue. Thank you Gail!

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] This references LRE. Least Restrictive Environment. When I read that, yes, it strikes me that the nature of it would keep one's child in a regular classroom. But I also see loopholes, or technicalities with semantics that could be used to make a parent's life difficult. "Supplementary aids and services" aren't going to keep my son from going into anaphylaxis. Controlling the classroom environment, what comes into it, what comes into it on who, and how things are cleaned & handled are what will keep him safe. A school might say that in a regular classroom that is impossible -- especially if there are enough parents ragging on them about their kids right to the peanut butter bird feeder, or the birthday cupcake, or the cultural potluck,etc.

[/b]

oh, fah, I see it as working the other way. Especially if you apply the hysteria some parents get worked up into at the mere mention of a "Special Ed" classroom. I mean, all those [i]uncontrollable[/i] behavior disorders [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] lurking about in there. Especially the ones who [i]just have to have their peanut butter[/i] in order to placate them. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] (sarcasm intended)

No advice, but, hey, the year my oldest was in a "self contained" classroom, the issue of another child [i]needing[/i] their peanut butter (in the classroom at a common table no less) *DID* come up. Because of their disability. Their federally protected disability. Their disability that was federally protected to be in the [i]Least Restrictive Environment[/i] disability. Their Sped status, I mean. So, no, your argument doesn't make any *real* sense to me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Honestly? There was teasing with peanut butter at the lunch table by some students in the "self-contained" classroom (not self contained for lunch hour---in the general population) that year. Honestly? I don't think the child was being as [i]sinister[/i] as it appeared. The sped teacher should have done her job and intervened not chalked it up to harmless teasing. I mean, she should have done some educating, but I digress. Not once, last year did teasing occur in the "regular education" classroom, although there were several "SPED" students, mine included, in that classroom. Hmmmmmmmmmm. (could environment have an effect? different expectations? ) hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, (there I go, digressing again,) But no, your argument, imagination, doesn't make sense to me, having experienced both worlds. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

edited to add: "Because of their disability. Their federally protected disability. Their disability that was federally protected to be in the [i]Least Restrictive Environment[/i] disability."

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b] Do I not have the right to defend myself? You have that right...[/b]

glad I have your permission.

Quote:

[b]Plus, I tend to get a little b!tchy when I get picked at over and over again...And I see that you do as well.[/b]

Ya think? (and people wonder why "so many pages". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] )

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]Ok, so here's another...

Say I get a 504 and they do limit dd's education by pulling her out of class for every little project that she cannot participate in or lunch or put her in other classes, and I find that with a 504, I have shot myself in the foot (so to speak). [/b]

You mean, you'd sign and approve her being pulled out for "every little project that she cannot participate in or lunch"? Is that LRE?

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]Ok, so here's another...

Say I get a 504 and they do limit dd's education by pulling her out of class for every little project that she cannot participate in [/b]

Having a 504 plan is meant to PREVENT things like this from happening. Also, 504's are not written in stone. There are periodic reevaluations. I would think that the school would be only too happy to have you tell them that your child no longer needs accommodations. After all, they receive no funding for 504 students, they just have to do more work!

On the topic of school district placement decisions, here is another thread about being placed in a different school: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001889.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001889.html[/url] Unfortunately, this *can* be used by school districts as a kind of retaliation. They can place your child in worse school, far away, even in another district! It may be difficult to prove that the placement is inappropriate or the result of retaliation. That said, I have rarely seen this come up. Most people are not facing this kind intimidation when they ask for 504. More often, they are faced with ignorance which can be overcome with time and information. You are the best judge of the climate in your school and school district. You risk little by simply asking the district special ed office about how they handle life-threatening food allergies. Their answer will tell you a lot about what you will have to face if you go for a 504.

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Yeah, I hear ya on the PAGES...yet you still pick, MB.

I am dropping this with you and I hope you will do the same. I am moving on with Real Issues rather than arguing (childishly) with you, I only hope that you will do the same.

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Thank you Cathy for helping out with my questions!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]Yeah, I hear ya on the PAGES...yet you still pick, MB.

I am dropping this with you and I hope you will do the same. I am moving on with Real Issues rather than arguing (childishly) with you, I only hope that you will do the same.

[/b]

THATS dropping it???! You had me fooled. For a sentence. Don't be surprised if I consider that [i]picking[/i]. Be even less surprised if I don't step back.

On Jul 12, 2006

Thank you.

You've raised the question/issue that it is possible your child may be misplaced during the 'Evaluation & Placement' process.

On Jul 12, 2006

Has anyone here been faced with improper placement?

How long will 504 'lable' my child? Can I get out of 504 once in?

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat: [b]

On the topic of school district placement decisions, here is another thread about being placed in a different school: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001889.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001889.html[/url] Unfortunately, this *can* be used by school districts as a kind of retaliation. [/b]

whoohoo! I was looking for that thread. (Gail, I posted to you in it)

Not for these reasons, but for some others. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Anywhooooooo, my child was placed "out of district", but for reasons related to his learning disability, or so they thought. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] Actually, I think it also had to do with the need for a full time nurse. And the fact that they were unsure of what type of classroom would suit him best. Getting toes wet after homeschooling, I mean. Don't really think it was a "retaliation" issue, (hindsight can be that way, yes, Gail?) but hey, look! I might have made a difference, they took it upon themselves to fill a full time nursing position in district, and last year, my cub attended at a school "in district", although not necessarily the school associated with my address, but hey, it was closer to my home to boot.(!) I mean, something good happened. Either way, a full time nursing position was filled, and they figured out my child was indeed capable of excelling in a "Less Restrictive" environment. (Glory, Hallelujia!)

No, I don't think it was retaliation, just fate. And some honest to goodness "Getting It", and change. For the better.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]I am moving on with Real Issues rather than arguing (childishly) with you, I only hope that you will do the same. [/b]

Okay.

Can you let me know if/when you ever want to go here:

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]I think there are lots of possibilities that can happen during the 504 process, and it's helpful to sort through and weigh them. Personally, of all the worries and possible downsides to obtaining a 504, misplacement would be very far down on my list. Not to discount this concern, just my perspective.

If anyone would ever like to explore some of the downsides of a 504, I'd be willing and interested to do that. But I'm not sure if that's what anyone wants. . . and I don't want to derail anyone's process here.[/b]

On Jul 12, 2006

[b]Not once, last year did teasing occur in the "regular education" classroom,[/b]

Well, then maybe Illinois is really different than California, because the teasing my son has gotten has been in the 'regular' classroom and play area.

Also, you like to make jokes about the lawyers that live around me -- well, one of the great things about that is I get an insight into how laws can be used against me. Lots of 'devils advocate' questions get posed to me. Sure, it has been very helpful to have a neighbor so involved in the school -- I get lots of useful information, including the knowledge that traditions are more important than my sons life. Oh, sure, it is round about -- but, really, the mere idea that her kid might be in a class next year with mine, eating at a table inside, not outside on the blacktop, nearly gave her a heart attack -- I mean, her child might miss out on 5 minutes worth of conversation with her best friend if they aren't in the same class. Add to that 1/2 hour of mental gymnastics of her trying to figure the odds that her child won't be in the same class as mine. Yes, I ended up getting a phone call with an apology later because I think she realized what that must have been for me to listen to that, but trust me, an apology is nice, but the true sentiment was in the first call.

The point? Well, 'OH FAH' is great. But 'Oh Fah' doesn't keep the people who like to be in control (my lawyer friend) off the PTA. Doesn't keep them from pulling strings at the school, or in the classroom after they get the teacher in their back pocket -- teachers are wonderful people, but they already have enough to deal with don't they? Ugh, along comes someone who wants hands washed, tables wiped, curriculum changed! 'Oh Fah' doesn't keep the principal from weighing her options, thinking about school coffers, and how she can make her life easier -- who to placate. We are the only Food Allergy family that has approached her about anything policy related. The only ones who have asked for and gotten a 504. Trail blazing great -- but some of the advantages are also countered when the other Food Allergy children do 'just fine' without all of the things we are asking for.

Yes, maybe California is different than Illinois. Maybe we have a higher ratio of jerks. It is possible -- but we've seen lots of articles posted here about people all over this great nation throwing tantrums and making people's lives **** because their kid needs to eat peanut butter.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]Has anyone here been faced with improper placement? [/b]

see my previous post. wasn't "retalliation", wasn't malicious, just due, in part, to ignorance. And time needed for the district to get up the "learning curve". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Quote:

[b]How long will 504 'lable' my child? Can I get out of 504 once in?

[/b]

I simply refused to sign one. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img] (no advice, just what I did. Individual Mileage May Vary)

In the end, my child was given a designation of "Other Heath Impairment" under IDEA. Again, no advice. I'll just quietly say *I* am pleased with it.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] Well, then maybe Illinois is really different than California, because the teasing my son has gotten has been in the 'regular' classroom and play area. [/b]

I'm telling ya....the tax base out here is stupendous for school districts. Ever consider owning one of the lovely (and affordable) homes in my area?? [i]We could be neighbors!![/i] (caution: watch for flying citrus rinds spewed over our deck from goblets of Sangria)

Quote:

[b]Also, you like to make jokes about the lawyers that live around me -- well, one of the great things about that is I get an insight into how laws can be used against me. Lots of 'devils advocate' questions get posed to me. [/b]

this is where cajones come in handy. I'm probably not "in tune" with these fears. The first lawyer I dispensed with the school district pitted against me I fondly (sorta) refer to as Mrs. Evil. Not surprisingly, so do many other lawyers I've come across. (We have them over here as well. I mean, this IS Chicago, [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] . A stroll down LaSalle Street or Dearborn will make that apparent.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [B Sure, it has been very helpful to have a neighbor so involved in the school -- I get lots of useful information, including the knowledge that traditions are more important than my sons life. Oh, sure, it is round about -- but, really, the mere idea that her kid might be in a class next year with mine, eating at a table inside, not outside on the blacktop, nearly gave her a heart attack -- I mean, her child might miss out on 5 minutes worth of conversation with her best friend if they aren't in the same class. Add to that 1/2 hour of mental gymnastics of her trying to figure the odds that her child won't be in the same class as mine. Yes, I ended up getting a phone call with an apology later because I think she realized what that must have been for me to listen to that, but trust me, an apology is nice, but the true sentiment was in the first call.

[/B]

As Gail so magnificently pointed out, are they (regular education students) entitled to "Least Restrictive Environment"??

Great point, again, Gail.

(ps.....gvmom, are you reading Gail's posts??)

On Jul 12, 2006

Regarding the question of whether or not the "label" is permanent, think of it this way--

504 [i]requires[/i] periodic re-evaluations. Of the plan, and I presume of the need for one in the first place. (Yes? [i] Anyone feel free here...[/i])

and also this:

Many children who are medically fragile due to a non-communicable illness would be covered by IDEA or 504. Of course. What about when the illness is resolved? So a child with cancer might need protections afforded them under ADA, but not once they go into remission, right?

So I think in practice (though I don't know since I am the furthest thing from an attorney...) this is a non-issue. Either you as the parent or the school can call for a re-evaluation. My impression has always been that this can be at any time there is a need percieved by either side.

On Jul 12, 2006

I, personally, want to know the down-side as well as the positives of 504. I dont want to know only the positives and then hit with the negitives after I have a 504...by then I will be stuck.

Gail, not arguing with you [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] You have been nothing but help and I appreciate it!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]Has anyone here been faced with improper placement? [/b]

Great question. You might want to consider asking this question in a new topic in Schools. I'm not too optimistic it will be seen here. . . buried on page 9.

On Jul 12, 2006

Thank you Gail, question has been raised in a new topic.

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

[b](ps.....gvmom, are you reading Gail's posts??) [/b]

Yes, I am. Are you really reading mine? You know -- reading them trying to get my point of view, not the words in the post with your spin on it? You of all people should get how things can be twisted -- you do it all the time in your posting. Let's get real. The thing is, on this board it doesn't screw with my kids 504, in real life it could if someone in the administration enjoyed the same sort of entertainment stylizations.

As for the sangria -- well, I'd take a glass -- but hopefully we'd be throwing the rinds at the neighbor on the other side whose kids still eat peanut butter.

And as for cajones -- well, I have them, but have a different philosophy on when to show them. Fearful of lawyers, no. Worried yes -- why? Because I don't like to spend my life fighting. Believe it or not. Listening to Mrs. Devil's Advocate is very helpful. It has come in handy many times. Had I flashed my cajones, I know that my source of inside info would be cut off. Ever play poker? Bridge? Sometimes finesse can be helpful -- and I find if you do it right, you can get more bang for your buck if it becomes their idea first, KWIM?

Like too, how you at least admit -- FINALLY -- that you are in Chicago, with lawyers even! The whole country bumpkin thing really was wearing thin.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]The point? . . . .(it). . . doesn't keep the people who like to be in control (my lawyer friend) off the PTA. Doesn't keep them from pulling strings at the school, or in the classroom after they get the teacher in their back pocket -- teachers are wonderful people, but they already have enough to deal with don't they? Ugh, along comes someone who wants hands washed, tables wiped, curriculum changed! 'Oh Fah' doesn't keep the principal from weighing her options, thinking about school coffers, and how she can make her life easier -- who to placate.[/b]

gvmom, I don't understand this point. I assume all laws have been broken. Section 504 of The Rehabilitation Act of 1973 is a law like any other. And it will be broken too. And, like other laws that are broken, there are procedures to follow and penalties.

On Jul 12, 2006

personal attack?:

quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by shoshana18: teddyally, it was very clear where you were coming from. unfortunately, you are right -- some people on these boards make it their sport to try and stick it to people. there are some rather mean-spirited individuals here who love to come across as "oh-so-innocent".

now, mommabear...guilty conscience? i didn't attack you; i didn't even mention your name. i was merely supporting teddyally -- she was trying to get answers, but instead felt SHE was attacked...been there.

On Jul 12, 2006

TeddyAlly, so sorry that your totally innocuous question keeps getting lost by someone who gets off on arguing with just about anyone on this board. It is a shame, as you are just trying to get help and that is what this board is supposed to be about. Can someone post contact information for Rhonda? I think she could help TeddyAlly alot. I never had to use her because my 504 process was very smooth, but many on this board have found her really helpful. She will probably be able to fully answer the question of is there a down side. From other people`s posts when they contacted Rhonda, it sounds like Rhonda will pretty much guide you through the process.

On Jul 12, 2006

Okay. I admit that now I'm completely confused:

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] Least Restrictive Environment. When I read that, yes, it strikes me that the nature of it would keep one's child in a regular classroom. But I also see loopholes, or technicalities with semantics that could be used to make a parent's life difficult. "Supplementary aids and services" aren't going to keep my son from going into anaphylaxis. Controlling the classroom environment, what comes into it, what comes into it on who, and how things are cleaned & handled are what will keep him safe. [/b]

These procedures . . . to control the classroom environment, the cleaning, etc . . . .[i]are[/i] the "Supplementary aids and services".

Momcat? Nutternomore? Corvallis Mom? Rhonda RS? Have I had this all wrong?

On Jul 12, 2006

You know, I think that part of the problem here is that for me there is a point at which I would say 'enough is enough'. That yes, there is a point at which I would just pull my son out rather than fight. It really isn't because of fear, it isn't because I don't believe there aren't ways to rectify problems with the laws provided with respect to this subject.

DH and I have talked about what we are willing to take on, fight for, how far we will take something -- sometimes the price one pays for being right isn't worth it depending on what it is. To win at all costs isn't where we are at. Everyone has to evaluate things for their own situation, true. The types of things that take a toll on one person, may not take a toll on another. But for us, if certain possibilities came to fruition, we would stop. And really, however anyone wants to take that, fine, I'm cool with it. But we understand people's capacity for being nasty -- and we understand that there are things people do and say that we couldn't even imagine or think of yet. I don't underestimate the human capacity for thoughtless, cruel and selfish behavior -- even when it comes to the well-being of a child. Sad to say. I don't believe that my child will be immune from the small mindedness of others -- I would like it if they were, but this isn't a debate on 'idealistic' vs 'realistic'.

I believe that there are those that would twist the language of 504's, IDEA's, LRE, ADA, etc, against you in order that they maintain the status quo and get you out of their hair. Sometimes knowing the degree someone can take it, knowing the ease or difficulty of the remedy for that -- well, it all can help in assessing if you start the process in the first place.

Everyone's approach is different right? Well, how some of us even get to the point of believing we will actually go ahead and start the process can be just as different -- so can the reasons why some of us wouldn't start a process. Isn't it better for TeddyAlly to recieve a fair answer -- a real answer to her concern, to truly help her decide if she goes ahead with the 504? I don't believe it is helpful to her in determining if she wants to go ahead, to basically attack her as though she has a problem with 'special ed' and those in it. Her approach may be different, but the end goal is helping her help her child. If that means she asks a question that speaks from the point she is starting from, her nexis of personal concerns, shouldn't we do our best to speak to that?

Gail, you don't understand my point. It really is politics. In the end, that is what it is. I don't believe one is able to keep it out. Maybe it doesn't play a heavy role where you are, but here, it is in everything. There is so much incestuous politicing in the school with the PTA, parents and administration I can hardly see straight. Laws exist, yes. There are procedures and penalities. There are always loopholes, battles over semantics and people with agendas (good and bad).

I know that the things in our 504 will ruffle the feathers of those on the PTA. It will ruffle the feathers of the teachers. It will ruffle the feathers of the parents in my son's class. I am already prepared to hear 'appropriate accommodations' a million more times. What we have asked for is minimal, I think. Basic. But what I know is that some will still think we are asking for the world. And I know, that while we shouldn't hear about it, we will. Gossip isn't squelched by laws.

Black and white works great on paper, but much of life is gray. Trying to separate gray back into black and white can be difficult, if you are standing alone in the midst of a bunch of people with 'spin' on their side.

On Jul 12, 2006

Thank you shoshana18 for sticking up for me..yes, all I wanted was answers to my questions and didnt really think I would be attacked for asking. Thought PeanutAllergy.com was a place to ask questions and get support. Thanks for helping me out!

Carefulmom, I would love to get in touch with others that can help me with my questions and not bash me for asking them. Thank you!!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

no problem, teddyally.

carefulmom, if you are referring to me. i don't get off by arguing with just about everybody. i don't often have the mainstream point-of-view on most things, granted. it's good to have an open mind, though, and listen to differing opinions.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] Everyone's approach is different right? Well, how some of us even get to the point of believing we will actually go ahead and start the process can be just as different -- so can the reasons why some of us wouldn't start a process. Isn't it better for TeddyAlly to recieve a fair answer -- a real answer to her concern, to truly help her decide if she goes ahead with the 504? I don't believe it is helpful to her in determining if she wants to go ahead, to basically attack her as though she has a problem with 'special ed' and those in it. Her approach may be different, but the end goal is helping her help her child. If that means she asks a question that speaks from the point she is starting from, her nexis of personal concerns, shouldn't we do our best to speak to that?

Black and white works great on paper, but much of life is gray. Trying to separate gray back into black and white can be difficult, if you are standing alone in the midst of a bunch of people with 'spin' on their side.[/b]

Yes, and that is what frightens me...it does work on paper, but loop-holes are not always listed on that paper. Thank you for helping me find real answers...just dont want to get caught up in a loop-hole somewhere. It is not SpEd that bothers me at all or disruptive children (they are in every classroom [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] ), it is the recource that the SD could take regarding 504

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by shoshana18: [b]now, mommabear...guilty conscience? i didn't attack you; i didn't even mention your name. i was merely supporting teddyally -- she was trying to get answers, but instead felt SHE was attacked...been there.

[/b]

is this called "acting oh so innocent"? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

On Jul 12, 2006

Shoshana, my guess is Carefulmom wasn't referring to you -- but I could be wrong.

And TeddyAlly, I understand your concern about loopholes. That is why your post & question was something that struck a cord with me. It always has remained in my mind that there are those here who have had to go to many lengths to get a 504 because of what the SD does. There are those that have sought out lawyers, have litigated, have had to go to the OCR -- just because it hasn't happened to me, doesn't mean I don't believe it could. Sometimes administrators don't care how big your cajones are, because right now, even with laws, the findings could come down on either side. Food Allergy awarness and laws are gaining momentum -- but the general public is slower to catch up, and like it or not that can play an enormous role in how things shake out.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] gvmom, I don't understand this point. I assume all laws have been broken. Section 504 of The Rehabilitation Act of 1973 is a law like any other. And it will be broken too. And, like other laws that are broken, there are procedures to follow and penalties.

[/b]

To me it's a porch issue. It's about whether one likes sitting on it, or hiding under it.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b] These procedures . . . to control the classroom environment, the cleaning, etc . . . .[i]are[/i] the "Supplementary aids and services".

Momcat? Nutternomore? Corvallis Mom? Rhonda RS? Have I had this all wrong?

[/b]

You didn't ask me, but hey, it's what I've always said and thought. Personally? and it's worth nothing, and I could be wrong, but I still felt your instance qualified for "OHI" under IDEA. . .

On Jul 12, 2006

So you take all this time and effort into getting a 504, then you have to take more time and effort fighting issues and penalties that could come about with getting a 504. I just dont know if it is worth it getting a 504. I know that not everyone faces issues with getting it, but there is still a chance. My husband thinks that we should wait and do something about it if the SD tries to fight us on anything, but then again, I would not like to wait until it is too late either...I am at a total toss.

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Keep in mind then, that even if you don't [i]win[/i] such a complaint, the SD will still [i]fear[/i] a complaint that involves the OCR if they have actually been guilty of malicious behavior.

On the other hand, you may decide (as we did) that the accommodations you would [i]have[/i] to ask for in a 504 would put you at such odds with your school that in the end, the liklihood of getting it to work at all is slim.

We elected [i]not[/i] to pursue a 504 for DD in kindergarten. But we knew better than to put her in school without one.

I agree that life is all about the grey... and that you have to decide internally where your own peronal point of diminishing returns is at. Give yourself permission to walk away when you reach that point. We had to do this as well when we pursued our own 504. I prepared well, but still, you really don't know how other people will behave... so we definitely had a plan B in mind when we started.

And if that is the case, then you are in a position to move forward confidently. If not, then you have to be a lot more tentative. And there is a point at which you really do have to take the plunge mentally. This is scary because we don't control the outcome.

But remember that if it isn't what you want, you can always step away and say "No, thank-you but this isn't going to work for my family..." Many members of this board have at one time or another done so.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] is this called "acting oh so innocent"? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img][/b]

exactly the point, mommabear. the stinging remarks get old (and get everyone off the original point!).

On Jul 12, 2006

I am also very curious about something, Teddyally.

What does your husband think the SD will do for accommodations without a written 504 plan?

Why does he think that there will be more problems if you have one than if you don't?

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img]

I also wanted to clarify-- my own fears and pragmatism (can't really separate the 2 at this point) resulted in the decision to homeschool. It was the right thing for us to do. Therefore, when we requested a 504 plan with our cyberschool, we knew that walking away from an unacceptable accommodation plan was a no-brianer. (Just so you understand where I am coming from.)

On Jul 12, 2006

Shoshana, I definitely was not referring to you. In every thread I have ever seen on this board that has gone bad/destructive/rude/argumentative/nasty, there is one user who is always there. And it isn`t you.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]So you take all this time and effort into getting a 504, then you have to take more time and effort fighting issues and penalties that could come about with getting a 504. [/b]

Worst case scenario-- (you could read a few threads but let's just keep this theoretical...)

IF the SD you are dealing with is so heinous as to violate a disabled child's written accommodation plan (ie- 504), then what will these people do if you waltz in the principal's office and ask "Pretty please" if they will give your child a peanut-free classroom?

I do not understand how informal accommodations are going to work BETTER than formalized ones with people who are probably jerks.

You have no way of enforcing good will and promises. This is painfully fickle. Anyone at any time can derail you and you'll have nowhere to go to complain if the principal tells you to "Just deal with it." What if it is a matter of refusing to be trained with an Epipen? What will you do in the weeks or even months it will take to do your 504?

On Jul 12, 2006

I'm wondering if TeddyAlly's husband thinks like mine did. He had met with the Principal and found her to be very understanding. Felt there was an air of good will and cooperativeness. It took more time to convince him that a 504 was the route to go -- mainly my telling him that during this one meeting he was set to have with the Principal, she'd try to weasle out of something (if only we had really wagered money). When push came to shove, and it really was getting down to the put up or shut up time, she tried to manuever out of something that I told DH she hadn't committed to in the first place. I actually felt kind of bad for him -- I know he likes the Principal, and I think he really gave her the benefit of the doubt. Oh well, he learned and we got our 504.

How it all plays out, well, we'll find out when the new school year starts.

On Jul 12, 2006

[b]And there is a point at which you really do have to take the plunge mentally. This is scary because we don't control the outcome.[/b]

Nodding my head in agreement.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Gail, you don't understand my point. It really is politics. In the end, that is what it is. I don't believe one is able to keep it out. Maybe it doesn't play a heavy role where you are, but here, it is in everything. There is so much incestuous politicing in the school with the PTA, parents and administration I can hardly see straight. Laws exist, yes. There are procedures and penalities. There are always loopholes, battles over semantics and people with agendas (good and bad).

I know that the things in our 504 will ruffle the feathers of those on the PTA. It will ruffle the feathers of the teachers. It will ruffle the feathers of the parents in my son's class. I am already prepared to hear 'appropriate accommodations' a million more times. What we have asked for is minimal, I think. Basic. But what I know is that some will still think we are asking for the world. And I know, that while we shouldn't hear about it, we will. Gossip isn't squelched by laws. [/b]

Ummmm. . . I don't think you are familiar with the experiences that I've posted here on the boards.

gzmom, do you not realize that I requested a Section 504 designation in 2001, after my DD had [i]multiple[/i] allergic reactions at school, had been segregated on multiple occassions, and we were [i]denied[/i] a 504 without even a meeting and handed an IHP? And that [b]due to the very reasons you have stated above, we chose [i]not[/i] to fight the system?[/b]

taking deep breaths. . . .

On Jul 12, 2006

thanks for replying, carefulmom. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]I agree that life is all about the grey... and that you have to decide internally where your own peronal point of diminishing returns is at. Give yourself permission to walk away when you reach that point. We had to do this as well when we pursued our own 504. [/b]

I believe in "grey" too. And I walked away from the 504 process once because it wasn't worth it at the time.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]Okay. I admit that now I'm completely confused:

These procedures . . . to control the classroom environment, the cleaning, etc . . . .[i]are[/i] the "Supplementary aids and services".

Momcat? Nutternomore? Corvallis Mom? Rhonda RS? Have I had this all wrong?

[/b]

No, you are right. The accommodations PA kids have under 504 are "supplementary aids and services." The administration of epinephrine is a supplementary service as well.

Cathy

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] You didn't ask me, but hey, it's what I've always said and thought. Personally? and it's worth nothing, and I could be wrong, but I still felt your instance qualified for "OHI" under IDEA. . .

[/b]

I know you do. And some days I do, too. But this was yet [i]another[/i] instance when we determined it [i]was not worth the fight[/i], or that I didn't have the fight in me, or perhaps that I've failed my daughter. [i]Again[/i]. Maybe even "all of the above".

On Jul 12, 2006

Thanks Cathy. For a moment I thought I completely misunderstood the basic concepts.

On Jul 12, 2006

Gail, while I don't know all the ins and outs of what you have gone through, the point is you have gone back to it. You chose not to fight at one time, for the reasons I've stated. Did you know about them before you chose to initiate the 504 process that led you to leave, or did you find out during? Do you think that going back to the process was easier the 2nd time because you had an idea of what you would be facing? If you had been warned, told of the possibilities the first time (if you were unaware going into it), do you think you would have walked away, or walked away at the same point, or would it have taken more to get you to the point of not fighting any more?

I think it is legitimate for anyone to get as much information as they can, or that they can think of, or that others volunteer to them, before starting a process. TeddyAlly is determining right now if it is worth it for her. She is asking questions, for herself, that will help her decide.

To be at the beginning of the process is daunting. You are already years into the experience of this whole process -- we aren't. I have the designation. I have accommodations. It will be put into action at the end of next month. I believe the struggle -- the hugest one -- is yet for us to face, due to the situation we are in, and who we are dealing with. TeddyAlly hasn't even decided if she wants to go through the process to get the designation yet. She has to make that evaluation based on her situation, who she is dealing with, what she is facing, and her own personal lines she might draw. Our process is in it's infancy compared to where you are at -- and we want to know what possibilities await us. To be prepared as best we can. It may make the difference as to where we draw our lines. When we walk away, or if we see that the hurdles are surmountable.

On Jul 12, 2006

Can I ask a question then about LRE and "supplementary aids and services"?

If it is clear that the Epi pen falls under the category of "supplementary aid", why have there been problems getting them placed unlocked and in a classroom, with a trained person to administer? If they fall under that category, wouldn't not having an Epi-pen readily available, in an unlocked location near the student it is necessary for, violate one of the requirements of the LRE part of the ADA?

Wouldn't not having a nurse also violate the 'services' end of the LRE with respect to proper administration of medication?

Also, is it the soap required for handwashing that is considered the 'supplementary aid' and the getting children to wash hands the 'supplementary service'?

Extra paper towels for cleaning tables -- supplementary aid?

Eye rolling by the teacher -- supplementary service?

On Jul 12, 2006

For us, our decision was clear after experiences in Kindergarten. We found out the hard way that polite, friendly assurances that everything would be taken care of, DD would be safe, etc. are worthless. DD's own K teacher let DD choose a prize from her treasure box, which despite her assurances that it would be safe, contained Reese's peanut butter cups. This was discovered after DD suffered repeated contact reactions at school (probably from other kids eating their "prizes") When confronted this teacher sweetly said, "Well, it's not a problem because **** is so smart, she always chooses a toy!"

Unless there are legal consequences, people like that teacher will sweetly agree to everything you say, and then continue to do just as they please. For us, 504 was mandatory. We decided that if we were unable to obtain the designation and acceptable accommodations, DD would not attend public school. Period.

Ultimately, it was our stubborn insistence that prevailed. We suffered insults and veiled threats from school administrators, but nothing worse than that. I have decided to let bygones be bygones. I remain friendly and professional, and they are now friendly and professional toward me. TeddyAlly, if you are asking for my advice, I would say that you have very little to lose by requesting 504. They may just give it to you! If you find that there is going to be too much of a struggle, you can always accept a health plan.

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] Eye rolling by the teacher -- supplementary service?

[/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] ROFLMAO!!!!

Naw-- you get that even [i]without[/i] a formal disability designation. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] It's just a bonus.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]I think it is legitimate for anyone to get as much information as they can, or that they can think of, or that others volunteer to them, before starting a process. TeddyAlly is determining right now if it is worth it for her. She is asking questions, for herself, that will help her decide. [/b]

This gets my "AMEN". I can only hope my posts are read with the assumption that I support everyone's quest to seek out information so that they can make the best decision for themselves and their child. That's was my whole intent of creating this thread . . .

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]. . . violate one of the requirements of the LRE part of the ADA?[/b]

Just clarifying, not meaning to be nit-picky, just wanting accuracy for readers. . . LRE has nothing to do with the Americans with Disabilities Act. The ADA is a completely different law.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Can I ask a question then about LRE and "supplementary aids and services"?

If it is clear that the Epi pen falls under the category of "supplementary aid", why have there been problems getting them placed unlocked and in a classroom, with a trained person to administer? If they fall under that category, wouldn't not having an Epi-pen readily available, in an unlocked location near the student it is necessary for, violate one of the requirements of the LRE part of the ADA?

Wouldn't not having a nurse also violate the 'services' end of the LRE with respect to proper administration of medication?

Also, is it the soap required for handwashing that is considered the 'supplementary aid' and the getting children to wash hands the 'supplementary service'?

Extra paper towels for cleaning tables -- supplementary aid?

Eye rolling by the teacher -- supplementary service?

[/b]

gvmom, The way I understand it, any type of medical procedure that must be performed by school personnel would fall under "related services." There are restrictions on what types of services they must provide. Obviously, they are not trained medical professionals, so they are not required to perform services that cannot be performed by a layperson with some minimal training. This means a nurse is not a requirement. There is a lawsuit going on in our district right now over whether school personnel (other than the nurses) can be required to administer insulin to diabetic children.

To get to the point: they have to have someone available to administer epipen, but there is nothing in the law saying that it has to be the child's teacher. You could certainly make the argument that proper administration means immediate administration and that if the teacher will not do it (state law says they don't have to) an aide would have to be present in the classroom to do it. Good luck getting your school without lunch tables to pay for an aide...

Cathy

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]I'm wondering if TeddyAlly's husband thinks like mine did. He had met with the Principal and found her to be very understanding. Felt there was an air of good will and cooperativeness. It took more time to convince him that a 504 was the route to go -- mainly my telling him that during this one meeting he was set to have with the Principal, she'd try to weasle out of something (if only we had really wagered money). When push came to shove, and it really was getting down to the put up or shut up time, she tried to manuever out of something that I told DH she hadn't committed to in the first place. I actually felt kind of bad for him -- I know he likes the Principal, and I think he really gave her the benefit of the doubt. Oh well, he learned and we got our 504.

How it all plays out, well, we'll find out when the new school year starts. [/b]

My husbands thing is Dont make trouble where there is no trouble to begin with. I understand where he is coming from but then again I dont want, like a few of you have said, it to back-fire so to speak. I know without a 504, I more than likely will not get what I expect. I am in the process of getting on paper what all I expect and taking it up with the allergist (to see what he can add or has to say about my concerns). From there I will offer my expectations to the school. And probably go ahead with the 504.

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Okay, okay -- LRE is part of IDEA. But LRE extends to 504, which gets you to the ADA. Right?

Is there a part of all this debate that gets anyone to see that if we here are nitpicking eachother to death -- and we are supposed to be on the same side -- how it could make someone wary of venturing into this process with people who are in an adversarial position?

On Jul 12, 2006

Right with you on the nitpicking issue, gvmom!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b] My husbands thing is Dont make trouble where there is no trouble to begin with. I understand where he is coming from but then again I dont want, like a few of you have said, it to back-fire so to speak. I know without a 504, I more than likely will not get what I expect. I am in the process of getting on paper what all I expect and taking it up with the allergist (to see what he can add or has to say about my concerns). From there I will offer my expectations to the school. And probably go ahead with the 504.

[/b]

That makes sense. It is a little naive... but it makes sense. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] (forgive my lack of tact there-- BTDT.) Most of us are just nice people who expected everyone else to play by the rules of social acceptibility-- but learned that when it comes to this allergy, people can really surprise you. And it is seldom in a [i]good[/i] way.

I mean, in theory, I agree with your DH. (And my own mother, btw, who has now finally grasped why a 504 for kids like ours is "the only way to go..." [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) But if they don't want to do it because the law says they must, why would I think they will because I'm nice about it? If the world worked that way, we wouldn't any of us need ADA at all, and neither would anyone else.

Am I worried they "won't like me?" Truly? Maybe I was. I was also afraid of the label. I hated the idea that anyone could think of my daughter as "defective," and I secretly thought (programmed by my mom who denigrated the use of ADA for less than debilitating disabilities....) that I was somehow "working the system," by having that label applied to my daughter.

But you become more cynical as you move along with this, so my perspective is quite different than it was three years ago.

At some point I realized that my daughter's "normal" life requires modifications that many families with "severe" disabilities find stifling or unbearable. (They've told me so. "Oh, we could never do what you do...") And many of them cringe at the label as well. It changes [i]everything[/i]. If that isn't a "disability," then what is? (Not everyone with a PA must live the way we do-- but we don't have a choice, and it [i]is[/i] severely limiting.)

This is why I mentioned that you have to come to peace with the terminology before you can decide to advocate. It is a real mental hurdle. IMO? This is the largest hurdle on the way to a plan everyone can live with.

On Jul 12, 2006

Naeve, yes. I totally understand that. I had to take measures the way I saw fit last year..good thing the school worked with me (my husband thought I was pushing them too much,I didnt as it was for dd's safety). I am doing things a little differently this year and now that I know more about 504 (I knew nothing, never heard of it this time last year, things will be different. I am thankful that I have you all to help me thru this!

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Okay, okay -- LRE is part of IDEA. But LRE extends to 504, which gets you to the ADA. Right? [/b]

[b][i]No. [/i][/b]

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Is there a part of all this debate that gets anyone to see that if we here are nitpicking eachother to death -- and we are supposed to be on the same side -- how it could make someone wary of venturing into this process with people who are in an adversarial position? [/b]

And while I'm the one who originally mentioned myself as possibly "nit-picky", I need to stress that the distinction between ADA and IDEA is very, very important. [i]I urge you to take the time to understand these laws. [/i]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]If it is clear that the Epi pen falls under the category of "supplementary aid", why have there been problems getting them placed unlocked and in a classroom, with a trained person to administer? If they fall under that category, wouldn't not having an Epi-pen readily available, in an unlocked location near the student it is necessary for, violate one of the requirements of the LRE part of the ADA?[/b]

In addition to what Momcat posted, I wanted to add my opinion is that there are sometimes gaps and inconsistencies in policies and laws.

For example, my district had a school board policy that prohibited children from carrying any medication (except for metered dose inhalers). When our 504 plan was written and included that Mariah will carry her epi-pen, it trigger the SD to change this policy.

Also, I live in a state that currently does not give children the right to carry their medication (with the one and only exception of a metered dose inhaler). That law is now under revision to include epi-pens. I don't know if it will pass or not. But if my state had this law, then the school board policy prohibiting Mariah from carrying her epi-pen would have never existed.

On Jul 12, 2006

[b]And while I'm the one who originally mentioned myself as possibly "nit-picky", I need to stress that the distinction between ADA and IDEA is very, very important. I urge you to take the time to understand these laws.[/b]

I know the distinction is important. Thanks for urging me to understand the laws. While I am typing this I have two boys going crazy, a puppy involved also -- and another dog trying to get himself in a different direction. I can only keep track of so many things, and windows with IDEA/LRE/504/ADA open at one time, looking for the specific language I am thinking of. I'm sorry that at this present time I'm getting weary of the fact that one seems to get beaten here with the same ferocity one prepares themselves to be confronted with from school administrators & personnel, friends & family.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Okay, okay -- LRE is part of IDEA. But LRE extends to 504, which gets you to the ADA. Right? [/b]

Purely for informational purposes: LRE applies only in the context of education. IDEA applies only in the context of education. Section 504 has many subparts, one of which we are discussing here. Subpart D applies to preschool, elementary, secondary and adult education. Other subparts apply to employment, accessibility of facilities, health, welfare and social services. Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 was the precursor to the ADA which was enacted in 1990. The ADA has Title II (prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability in government services) and Title III (prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability in "public accommodations" which are businesses and non-profit agencies that serve the public.)

[url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html[/url]

[url="http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/publicat.htm"]http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/publicat.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/finrule/1999-2/062499a.pdf"]http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/finrule/1999-2/062499a.pdf[/url]

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] I'm sorry that at this present time I'm getting weary of the fact that one seems to get beaten here with the same ferocity one prepares themselves to be confronted with from school administrators & personnel, friends & family.

[/b]

Am [i]I[/i] beating anyone/thing? I don't mean to, but if you feel that I am, then I will respect that and I will back off.

It's very discouraging to me that I'm here, not participating in the mud slinging, trying to hang in here to share whatever it is that I can, to read that . . .

On Jul 12, 2006

Cathy, just an aside, are you aware of any school lawsuits whereby a parent successfully applied ADA?

On Jul 12, 2006

It's probably me, Gail! I tend to be detail oriented.

C.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat: [b]It's probably me, Gail! I tend to be detail oriented.

C.[/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I'm glad you're still hanging in here too.

On Jul 12, 2006

Sorry, we posted at the same time. Yes, there is a lawsuit that successfully used the ADA. A Catholic school which was receiving federal funds denied admission to a PA child because of her PA. The family enrolled the child in a different, more expensive school and sued the Catholic school in question. They were awarded the difference in tuition and the Catholic school agreed to change its policies.

I posted a copy (requested thru FOIA) of the OCR letter and settlement agreement with Saint Edward Elementary in Brockton (Brockton Public Schools).

It can be found here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002164.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002164.html[/url]

There is also the La Petite Academy case where PA children were excluded from the school because the school refused to administer epipen. The lawsuit was settled and the school agreed to administer epipen. That case can also be found in the above link.

An unsuccessful bid to use the ADA is in Land v. Baptist Medical Center (concerning a child care facility).

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 12, 2006).]

On Jul 12, 2006

I started to post about Land being more recent, and then saw you came back and already did. LOL.

I forgot about the Catholic school in Brockton. That's right. But that was on the merits of [i]both [/i]ADA and Section 504, no?

And La Petite is a daycare facility, which has a different application than elementary education, right?

On Jul 12, 2006

Yes, you're right. It was BOTH. I guess since OCR took care of it, they considered it a 504 issue.

I'm trying to think of a school issue where ADA would apply, but 504 would not. I guess that would have to be a private, non-parochial school which did not receive gov't funds? I think the ADA has also been used successfully for camps (they are considered childcare facilities).

Cathy

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]BTW, the fact that you attribute Shoshana18's post to yourself is very telling isn't it? She didn't even mention your name.

[/b]

Hey, who was you're first pick? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] I mean, you commented. Or is it just my sixth sense kicking in again? So based on who you picked, and given my sixth sense, AND [i]your post after reraising[/i], AND the posters who had posted most recently prior to that, it's not rocket science.

I mean, are we discussing my reading comprehension skills again? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Funny, I looked in to see what was added, and went huh? Did I miss something? Then went back a bit -- gotcha. No, I think you were clear too. Don't let the twisting keep you from posting. For the most part, the BS is entertaining, but transparent. [/b]

I mean, gvmom, I know you don't think I'm the brightest bulb, but give me a break----[i]even I understand *this*, considering at what point it was posted.[/i]

On Jul 12, 2006

[b]Hey, who was you're first pick? I mean, you commented. Or is it just my sixth sense kicking in again? So based on who you picked, and given my sixth sense, AND your post after reraising, AND the posters who had posted most recently prior to that, it's not rocket science.

I mean, are we discussing my reading comprehension skills again? [/b]

________________________________________

[b]I mean, gvmom, I know you don't think I'm the brightest bulb, but give me a break----even I understand *this*, considering at what point it was posted.[/b]

Do either of these comments have to do with the 504 and whether a child can be put into 'special ed' if deemed disabled, though not in need of those services? No. You want to start something with me, take it to 'Off Topic'. I am done in this thread.

On Jul 12, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]... a disservice to YOU, YOUR SCHOOL, and, above all else, YOUR CHILD.

Having just been through the process of obtaining a Section 504 Designation for my 5th grade daughter, I have developed very strong opinions about why this designation is vital for my child. In retrospect, I wish I had requested this protection for my child before she started kindergarten. And I have learned that having NOT requested the Designation upfront created a different set of problems that I had to inevitably address.

I hope this thread will address the fears of parents who are considering whether or not to go the "504 path". I hope that parents will share their experiences in order to help other parents who are wrestling with whether or not to pursue a Section 504 Designation for their child... or those parents who are beginning the 504 Designation process... to help them better understand that a 504 designation might not be easy, but it is not to be feared.

I came to my school district with the idea that 504 was a confrontational process, and this was confirmed by my conversations with my School District. So I waited six years to request this protection to avoid this (for us, inevitable) confrontation. This was a mistake and my child ultimately suffered because of it.

I hope others will chime in to help explain the beauty and service of a Section 504 Designation for our children. It might be helpful to write our testimonials in a consistent format if possible. I will write my comments in the format of my mistaken "myth" about 504, and why/how the reality of 504 better serves my child.

I try to add to this over time, as I hope others will too. Please add your experience if you also bought into a myth that has already been stated. And please also add to the myth(s) you experienced.

[b]Myth #1: Requesting a Section 504 will label me as a "difficult parent" and the School District won't want to work with me. [/b]

I found the opposite to be true. Having the 504 Designation made it clear to everyone why the school district needed to address accommodations. It provided the correct motivation for the school to proactively address accommodations and removed the onus of responsibility from me (parent) to the school district. By squarely defining the school district's accountability, it [i]liberated me [/i]from the my repeated requests to the SD. When the responsibility was mine to identify and advocating for specific accommodations, I felt like a "pest" and I was much [i]more [/i] llikely to be labeled "difficult". Now that the SD has acknowledged that their student has a legal right for protections, they take more responsibility to identify and address accommodations. I am viewed from a completely different light.

I realized rather late that by not having the Section 504 Designation, I also was left to negotiate with other parents directly. Before the SD understood that 'related services' applied to ALL activities, they directed me to coordinate activities with the other parent volunteers. This will always put you/me in the terribly awkward position of negotiating with other parents. THIS WAS A HUGE MISTAKE, and I find it impossible for a parent to not to have some sort of negative fall out by having been placed in this erroneous position.

A Section 504 Designation allows a parent to foster healthy interactions with other parents and staff. You become the "supportive, cooperative" parent that assists other parents in implementing [i]the School District's accommodations[/i].

[b]Myth #2: It is better if the school staff find me to be cooperative and likeable. It's better to avoid conflict with staff because if the staff doesn't like me, my child may not be treated as well by the staff.[/b]

Again, I fund the opposite to be true. Sorta. I think it is important to cooperate with staff. But what happened was that by not having the 504 Designation, I was placed in the incorrect position of directly [i]negotiating[/i] with school staff and parents. This is just a losing position for any parent to be in.

The better and appropriate position is for the SD to acknowledge to its staff that this child is legally entitled to accommodations, and that these are not directly negotiated between school staff and the parent, or parent/parent. They are accommodations are created by a "504 Team", are implemented and enforced by the school administration. It removes you from on-going negotiations directly with your teacher/principal, and again liberates you to a more appropriate role of supporting the teacher/school/parents in [i]the School District's accommodations [/i]for your child.

[b]Myth #3: My School (School District) is cooperating with me and I have the accommodations that I want. A 504 is not necessary.[/b]

Again, I found this not to be true. My school staff cooperated and had a very good IHP in place. I always felt the uncomfortable strain that they "were doing so much already" and that I somehow didn't appreciate this because I was asking them to address other new accommodations as they became apparent. I always felt beholden for the attention and the good accommodations that I had negotiated with them to provide. They seemed to want to create an IHP and then they "were done".

The 504 Designation maintains the School District's [i]accountability[/i] to proactively create the accommodations. This accountability and ownership is necessary for you to have a good, healthy relationship with your school community.[/b]

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Do either of these comments have to do with the 504 and whether a child can be put into 'special ed' if deemed disabled, though not in need of those services? No. You want to start something with me, take it to 'Off Topic'. I am done in this thread.

[/b]

where were these feelings several pages ago when [i]you[/i] started something with me, ie: "gotcha" comment when, indeed, we were discussing something pertinent to this topic?

[i]Golf clap in *your* honor.[/i]

So yeah, stereotypes. We are now talking about the BIGGEST FEAR again, right? Not about [b]"Why NOT obtaining Section 504 for your child is a DISSERVICE to your child....."[/b] but [i]rather[/i] (begin sarcasm----) how Sped classrooms are soooooooooooo awful that (sarcasm warning) the BIGGEST FEAR you *should* have obtaining one is that school districts will place your child in one of the [i]prolific number[/i] (more sarcasm) of sped classrooms that actually exist, devoted solely to LD (or whatever) out of retalliation. (End sarcasm.) Oh, wait, not yet-----I mean, is there a "terror alert" color for this too?

Guess I was pretty accurate in my original impression.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 13, 2006).]

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b] Ever play poker? Bridge?[/b]

this is my 6 year old's department. His current obsession is playing cards and poker chips.

Quote:

[b]Sometimes finesse can be helpful -- and I find if you do it right, you can get more bang for your buck if it becomes their idea first, KWIM?[/b]

the problem with finesse, is that often it requires [i]lying[/i]. Fudging. A [i]poker face[/i]. I'm not good at this. Not even when the stakes are [i]insurmountable[/i]. Call it a flaw. It's why I choose the road less travelled, and probably, more exhausting. But hey, it's my gift. It's what I'm good at. It's who I'm meant to be.

Quote:

[b]Like too, how you at least admit -- FINALLY -- that you are in Chicago, with lawyers even! The whole country bumpkin thing really was wearing thin.[/b]

My heart says differently. It's yearning to go back to my tin can in the woods. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] The cubs too. I mean, how many baby books state: [i]"My First shopping expedition to 'Rural King'--- July 2, 2006"?[/i]

And how many babies' onesies state: [b]"My parents took me to 'Rural King' and all I got was this lousy onesie"[/b]?

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 13, 2006).]

On Jul 13, 2006

Ignoring MB's Comments as she just doesnt get it and wants to argue with Everyone}

What info is most important when you present 504 to allergist?

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 13, 2006

I would say that the first thing to do with your allergist is to find out how much they know about 504.

If it is "nothing" or "not much" then you need to educate them FIRST.

Give "official" information from AAFA, OCR and the like... then let them digest it.

After all of that, ask whether or not they are comfortable advocating for you with a letter, and ask if you can be helpful with wording, or even provide them with a draft of something suitable. It depends on your doctor and your relationship with him/her how "controlling" you want to be at that point.

HTH [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Jul 13, 2006

Thank you...I really appreciate your help. I just never really knew how to get started. I have always known what I wanted/expected for the safety of dd, but didnt know who or how to get it all in the works. Now I know...Thank You Much!

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 13, 2006

If it were me, I would call Rhonda before doing anything else. She can tell you how involved you do or don`t need your allergist to be. For us, all we needed was a very short letter from the allergist. It was a one minute phone call to him. I didn`t give him any info from OCR or on 504s or anything like that. I would call Rhonda first and see if she thinks you need to start with the allergist. I personally started with the school nurse. I vote for not making it any more complicated than it needs to be. You may need all the things other people posted about, but you may not. 90% of the things that I read about people on this board having to do for a 504, we did not do. Our process was very quick. I`d start with Rhonda first and see what you do or don`t need to do.

[This message has been edited by Carefulmom (edited July 13, 2006).]

On Jul 13, 2006

This is certainly true. (shrug)

I would also argue, however, that it never hurts anything if your physician gives you a real winner of a letter-- even if something less would have been adequate. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by TeddyAlly: [b]Ignoring MB's Comments as she just doesnt get it and wants to argue with Everyone}[/b]

let me guess. Are you trying to be childish?

Quote:

[b]What info is most important when you present 504 to allergist? [/b]

It might be the other way around. I mean, what info is most important from the allergist for the 504 designation. Cart, horse. No advice, but Rhonda posted some great stuff in this thread:

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477.html[/url]

It's a long read but there are some gems in there.

[/B][/quote]

On Jul 13, 2006

I think step one is for you to carefully read the text of Section 504 Subparts A & D. [url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html[/url] Make sure you really understand how and why your child qualifies for 504. Otherwise, when the doctor, school nurse or whomever you approach questions the designation, you will not have a clear reply.

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 13, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 13, 2006).]

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Carefulmom: [b]Shoshana, I definitely was not referring to you. In every thread I have ever seen on this board that has gone bad/destructive/rude/argumentative/nasty, there is one user who is always there. And it isn`t you.[/b]

every thread? one user? Hmmmmmmm. selective reading list. That poster should be flattered. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

On Jul 13, 2006

oh, and TeddyAlly, no advice, definitely not, but my child doesn't have an "Allergist". His family practice pediatrician provided an *excellent* letter. Again, no advice, I might have just lucked out. Easy road, something like that. KWIM?

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]This is certainly true. (shrug)

I would also argue, however, that it never hurts anything if your physician gives you a real winner of a letter-- even if something less would have been adequate. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

[/b]

A really good letter would be good to have even if you don`t need it, but I`m not so sure I would be giving the allergist info from OCR, on 504s, etc unless for some reason he is clueless. I tended to save up the allergist favors for those unexpected times when it is really necessary. For example, when the 4th grade teacher violated the 504 and let a child eat pb at dd`s desk while she sat outside. The allergist wrote a flaming letter for that, and I really needed it. I guess my point is a 504 is enough work anyhow. I don`t think I`d be trying make the allergist an expert on the law. He should already know that by law the school has to accomodate the pa. I still vote for calling Rhonda and seeing what step she says you should take first. She is truly the expert.

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Carefulmom: [b] I don`t think I`d be trying make the allergist an expert on the law. He should already know that by law the school has to accomodate the pa. [/b]

Personally? and I could be wrong, but I don't feel the allergist, physician, whatever needs to be an expert on the law. Just that they are able to accurately present what circumstances a particular condition demands, and provide an accurate diagnosis/and or treatment/remedy. That is their role.

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Carefulmom: [b] He should already know that by law the school has to accomodate the pa.[/b]

I think you are making a big assumption here.

But here's how I would start with the allergist: before you even mention 504, or the word "accommodations", discuss what the doctor's orders will be with respect to treating and *preventing* reactions. Ask the doctor what needs to be done to keep your child safe at school--should classmates wipe their hands after eating? Should the room be "peanut free"? Does the epipen need to be in the room with your child? Does your child need to be supervised by a trained adult at all times? Does your child need a peanut free lunch table?

After you know specifically what needs to be done, you can address how to get the needed accommodations. That is the time to discuss 504 with the doctor.

Cathy

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Gail, while I don't know all the ins and outs of what you have gone through, the point is you have gone back to it. You chose not to fight at one time, for the reasons I've stated. Did you know about them before you chose to initiate the 504 process that led you to leave, or did you find out during? Do you think that going back to the process was easier the 2nd time because you had an idea of what you would be facing? If you had been warned, told of the possibilities the first time (if you were unaware going into it), do you think you would have walked away, or walked away at the same point, or would it have taken more to get you to the point of not fighting any more? [/b]

I'll try to answer these questions as best I can.

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Gail, while I don't know all the ins and outs of what you have gone through, the point is you have gone back to it. You chose not to fight at one time, for the reasons I've stated. Did you know about them before you chose to initiate the 504 process that led you to leave, or did you find out during? [/b]

Yes, I guess I could say that I knew about them in theory, but that didn't really prepare me until I was in the midst of it all several years later. Like you, I'd get some comments, 'fishing expeditions', vibes. I was outright told by SD administrators (including the then Superintendent) that "we don't do 504s" and that DD "would not qualify anyway since learning wasn't involved". At that time, our SD had never done a 504 for anything, let alone PA. Like you, we were the first, and my SD wasn't familiar (misinformed actually) about 504s. I feared that the school would relaliate, and that ultimately my DD could be [i]harmed[/i] if we proceeded~ things like backlash, resentment, retaliation, ill will. In fact, I think this [i]did[/i] occur when the SD dragged their feet evaluating DD's LD. I felt they held us hostage in a way, because I needed them to keep her safe. I'm sure you understand or have also been there.

My thinking in those early years was that if my DD was safe, I didn't really care what wrapping the plan came packaged in: IHP, 504, IEP, or even letters of understanding. What I didn't understand then was that the school would keep her safe by denying her right to LRE. . . they would "segregate" her to keep her safe. And that without the protections of a 504 (or IEP), that I had very little recourse.

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]Do you think that going back to the process was easier the 2nd time because you had an idea of what you would be facing? [/b]

Sure, but more importantly, I think it was 'easier' only because I was motivated by seeing the negative ramifications of her not having the designation. That motivated me to learn about her rights and overcome my own fears about what I had to do in order to secure them. It took me too long to accept the fact that it was my duty, as a parent, to assure this designation for DD. . . no matter what obstacles the school put forth. I had to overcome my *own* issues that professionals in our SD did not understand 504, didn't do their jobs, and didn't always do the "right" thing. I had a hard time getting my head around that, and resented that I what was necessary was for me, in essence, show them what their job is and insist that they do it.

It was 'easier' because as I saw the consequences of her not having the designation. . . I saw my child hurting [i]emotionally[/i]. . . and as I could see this hurt, my resolve and strength to 'fight' grew.

Quote:

Originally posted by gvmom: [b]If you had been warned, told of the possibilities the first time (if you were unaware going into it), do you think you would have walked away, or walked away at the same point, or would it have taken more to get you to the point of not fighting any more? [/b]

I very much regret not fighting for Mariah's rights the first 'round' because as a result, seen only in hindsight, she suffered because of it. I'm not sure we would have "won" that first time, and where we would have ended up as a result of losing. Hard to say. Maybe it was better to have waited for factors to change, as they did, increasing our chances for the outcome we schieved. <> I don't know.

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]oh, and TeddyAlly, no advice, definitely not, but my child doesn't have an "Allergist". His family practice pediatrician provided an *excellent* letter. Again, no advice, I might have just lucked out. Easy road, something like that. KWIM?[/b]

Well, my child has both a wonderful ped and a great allergist...guess you are not the only lucky one

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat: [b] I think you are making a big assumption here.

But here's how I would start with the allergist: before you even mention 504, or the word "accommodations", discuss what the doctor's orders will be with respect to treating and *preventing* reactions. Ask the doctor what needs to be done to keep your child safe at school--should classmates wipe their hands after eating? Should the room be "peanut free"? Does the epipen need to be in the room with your child? Does your child need to be supervised by a trained adult at all times? Does your child need a peanut free lunch table?

After you know specifically what needs to be done, you can address how to get the needed accommodations. That is the time to discuss 504 with the doctor.

Cathy[/b]

I agree. From what I've read here, most physicians are unfamiliar with 504. I think it would be unusual for your allergist to be knowledgeable about 504. Most likely, you'll be the one educating him/her (or perhaps another parent may already have).

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear:

Yes, I am being just as childish as you are!

Thanks for the link though...all I am asking for is a little assistance (never expected to get attitude from my past posts or for asking questions.)

------------------ Helen Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6) Mom to Theodore (age 3)

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat: [b]I think step one is for you to carefully read the text of Section 504 Subparts A & D. [url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html[/url] Make sure you really understand how and why your child qualifies for 504. Otherwise, when the doctor, school nurse or whomever you approach questions the designation, you will not have a clear reply.

Cathy[/b]

Also seconding this advice. Do lots of homework. I think you need to read, read, read first (including both of Rhonda's websites).

On Jul 13, 2006

I`m not sure my allergist even knows what a 504 is, but like someone else posted, all he really needs to know is that by law the school has to accomodate the pa. I don`t care if he knows the name of the law or not. His role is really to determine what accomodations are necessary. I don`t care if he knows the name of the law that requires it, but I do care that he is clear about what accomodations are necessary. Only if he was under the delusion that the school doesn`t have to accomodate pa, would I feel a need to educate the allergist about the law (and actually I might change allergists if that happened). I just expect our allergist to give medical advice, not legal advice.

On Jul 13, 2006

Our experience was polar opposite from Carefulmom's.

In my situation, my allergist's knowledge about 504 was critical. He had already provided the SD with 3 letters about necessary accommodations for DD. When we formally requested the 504 designation, his letter stating that he was knowledgeable about 504 and his statement expressly stating that DD qualified for 504 were the most powerful 'data' considered in the evaluation process.

Would we have obtained the designation without that letter? I don't know. Probably. It would have taken more 'data' from other 'sources'. But I do know that having him state the words he did ended the debate. . . (as well as the prior discussions about "mitigating measures" and the meaning of 'significantly impacted'. )

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 13, 2006).]

On Jul 13, 2006

My pediatrician provided things in his letter like......oh, it's in the link. But hey, for instance he advised that my cubs learning environment be free of peanuts, treenuts, or lentils. [i]Even in trace amounts[/i]. It wasn't his job to determine how this was done, ie: accommodations, just to state what the circumstance *should* be.

The IEP team, us included determined (compromised?) that this [i]learning environment[/i] be several *key* areas. As an incident where other environments where these substances might occur could effectively be called [i]an Act of God[/i]. I'd venture to say *my* cub is probably safer at school than he is in a restaurant or at the mall or the grocery store. Unless, of course, he is with me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Anywhere, with me. That's the way it should be. I am his safest bet, and I'm no betting woman. That said, I think it would not be in his best interest that I attend school with him. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

No advice, but only personally speaking in my own individual situation, I accept the idea that this is achieved through actively and passively restricting items that do or [i]May Contain[/i] peanuts, treenuts, or lentils, even in trace amounts, from his classroom(s) or other areas where a learning activity is planned. Possibly through implementing a [i]food free[/i] classroom next year. I mean, I don't expect a lead team to dash in and microscopically examine each and every aspect of the room.

No advice, just me and a specific instance.

On Jul 13, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]

In my situation, my allergist's knowledge about 504 was critical. He had already provided the SD with 3 letters about necessary accommodations for DD. When we formally requested the 504 designation, his letter stating that he was knowledgeable about 504 and his statement expressly stating that DD qualified for 504 were the most powerful 'data' considered in the evaluation process.

Would we have obtained the designation without that letter? I don't know. Probably. It would have taken more 'data' from other 'sources'. But I do know that having him state the words he did ended the debate. . . (as well as the prior discussions about "mitigating measures" and the meaning of 'significantly impacted'. )

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 13, 2006).][/b]

I agree. As it turned out, my allergist was VERY well-versed. He fully appreciated the need to use very specific language in that letter, but if he hadn't, the few pages of information I provided him from OCR and AAFA (and I can't recommend that particular page and a half enough) would have spelled it out. Not much legalese-- just how it was relevant.

A good letter will slam doors shut on certain "questions" about eligibility and severity/sensitivity. I think that is [i]exactly[/i] the time to call in a favor. For specifics on how to actually manage the allergy-- is the allergist really an expert there anyway? I would argue not necessarily, since they may not know details of how the school ordinarily operates.

And educating an allergist about 504 protections is just plain socially responsible. JMO.

On Aug 9, 2006

bumping up...

On Aug 24, 2006

Reraising. IMO, this is one of the most informative, enlightening, and important threads under the Schools board. A must-read for parents with children entering the public school system.

On Oct 3, 2006

Re-raising for Kaitlin`s Mom.

On Oct 15, 2006

Ryansmom, Hello. You had mentioned that if one doesn't have a 504, they aren't protected and have no rights. I thought the 504 was a signed plan but that all people with disabilities, FA being one of them, are protected under the Disabilities Act, section 504 whether or not you have an actual 504 plan. Am I wrong?

On Oct 15, 2006

I believe that one is protected under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 if one is recognized as being disabled under the definition set forth in the law. The problem is that each person must be evaluated separately to determine if they are disabled and thus eligible for protection. The law contains no list of "eligible conditions". If one is deemed disabled, then it is decided if accommodations are required. In the case of schools, these must become part of a "504 Plan". However, the law does not require that this be a written document.

The Americans with Disabilities Act is a separate law which was passed later and has a more specific definition of what it means for a person to have a "substantial limitation" of a major life activity. It also has a broader scope and applies not only to entities receiving government funding, but also to privately owned "public accommodations" i.e. businesses that serve the general public.

Cathy

On Oct 23, 2006

Bumping up.

On Oct 24, 2006

Okay, let me put it this way. There are LOTS of kids with peanut allergies. IMO, most are not covered under a 504, just erbal agreements of how a peanut allergy should be managed, maybe a Food Allergy Action Plan if a reaction occurs.

A peanut allergy has to be documented as "life threatening" (by a doctor) in order to be covered under the 504. It is not automatic for everyone. (This was explained to me further in a lengthy discussion with our former Director of Special Education.) There are SO many parents who have mentioned, "Oh, my child is not as severe as Ryan..." Fine. They can say that, although it is not proven IMO. There are many parents that do not consider their child's peanut allergy as life threatening and don't treat it as such--for those children, I deeply worry. They don't have a formal management plan (re: 504) with the school. Some don't have epipens at school too. There are no written precautions. There is a definite grey area as to whether or not they have a true disability which would be covered under the law. Heck, some parents don't even want the school to know!

Looking at our school's handbook, there is a section on how the school deals with harrassment because of a disability. This is probably the single biggest issue (right after his own safety) as to why I want a 504. I want, no, make that NEED that protection for him. This has never needed to be addressed, but you never know. Ryan has a *documented* peanut allergy and a legal document (504) to go along with it. It secures for him a safe, comprehensive management plan from the minute he steps on the bus, to the moment he steps off. It specifically spells out my responsibilities, Ryan's responsibilities, and the school's responsibilities. Very little room for questioning. And because of that legal documentation and documented disability, he has specific rights under the law.

My perspective also stems from my career in Education, especially working with lots of kids in my regular classes that fell under the Special Ed classification. Therefore, I do not view labeling as negative, more as positive. Specific groups of students are guaranteed certain rights under the law. Ryan is one of them because of his PA, and I would not let him enter public school without securing those rights for him.

Just my perspective on this.

ETA--further complicating matters is how some doctor's don't even treat PA as a serious disability, so how are parents and school supposed to know? How many times have members here been told by doctors, "Well, just avoid peanuts..." No epipen prescribed either. Just adds fuel to the fiery debate.

[This message has been edited by ryan's mom (edited October 24, 2006).]

On Oct 25, 2006

After thinking about this further, I will pose a legal question (I'm no lawyer) and will ask this:

If a parent tells the school administrator, my child has a peanut allergy but knows what to eat and not to eat, does not provide an epi, and has a reaction at school, who is to be held accountable? Assuming no 504 was drawn up, there are no doctors signing off on this, who is the responsible (or irresponsible) party in this? Just questions to throw out there.

How can a school district be held accountable when no formal documentation was ever in place to begin with? Exactly what is their responsbility to an undocumented peanut allergy.

You'd be amazed at what some of us hear. I remember hearing about the one parent that said, "Oh, he/she can touch peanuts--it's not that bad..." So if that child has a reaction at school, who is at fault?

[This message has been edited by ryan's mom (edited October 25, 2006).]

On Oct 25, 2006

ryan's mom! We are on the same page!

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]If a parent tells the school administrator, my child has a peanut allergy but knows what to eat and not to eat, does not provide an epi, and has a reaction at school, who is to be held accountable? Assuming no 504 was drawn up, there are no doctors signing off on this, who is the responsible (or irresponsible) party in this? [/b]

I have wondered this too!!!!

Or what if the child DOES have a rx for epi, but the parent does not pursue the 504. Does the school have an [i]obligation[/i] to obtain information from the family about the child's medical needs? Especially if, as is the case with my and your school, the SD has already provided a 504 designation/plan for a child with life-threatening PA. They are 'aware' of what the appropriate course of action [i]should[/i] be. . . that being that a child with a doctor's diagnosis of LTFA qualifies under 504. I mean, shouldn't school boards [i]mandate[/i] that if a parent notifies the school that their child has PA, that the child should automatically be evaluated. Don't they have the [i]obligation[/i] to evaluate the child for a 504 designation?

I know there have been parents who have objected to the school requesting medical information from them for fear that it will be twisted to [i]disqualify[/i] their child. But what about the opposite? for the child with LTFAs whose parent hasn't pursued a 504 for their child. . . is the school [i]obligated [/i]to propose an evaluation ?

On Oct 25, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]

I have wondered this too!!!!

[/b]

[i]I've wondered it in several threads here.[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Those I have been charged with to safeguard cannot absolve me of my legal and ethical obligations. (Neither can my employer). But what I was talking about. IE: My Nurse Practice Act. My Standard of Care. My Safe Practice. What another reasonable and prudent nurse with similiar experience and training might do. Period. But, then again, I'm a nurse. Your talking schools. A charge/patient can refuse treatment, if they are of sound mind and body, but then there comes a point where informed consent is necessary, possibly involving other specialties, and where an individual might be seen as "leaving against medical advise". Eloping. [i]Discharged[/i]. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Especially when there are well documented recipes to the contrary.

But I might be wrong. No advice.

On Oct 25, 2006

In our school, since Ryan has been enrolled and has the first 504 for a food allergy, there is new paperwork. Our school has a form that asks if the child has been tested. What type of test and when. Has the child had any reactions--state symptoms. Then a plan for a reaction.

Just basic stuff, but I think it potentially absolves them from a certain degree of negligence. It forces the parents to address the food allergy as they "see fit". The allergy *will* be treated. What's missing is the *plan*. The how-to-avoid-the-reaction in the first place.

There is much missing on paper when a child does not have a 504. And I worry that lack of any formal paperwork can actually be used AGAINST a parent. Can a school district counter-argue (thinking of a lawsuit) that the parent was actually negligent? I'll play devil's advocate. There are so many "hazy" circumstances I've come across, that I feel I could supply multiple legal arguments to a defense attorney as to why a school should NOT be held responsible/accountable. And that is a very scary thought to me. Yep, very scary, and it doesn't bode well for every kid that has a peanut/food allergy.

MB and Gail, these are some real questions, aren't they? Sometimes I'm scared to think of what the answers could be for so many people that are just going with the flow--don't want to pursue anything either due to ignorance or to "upset" the relationship they currently have with their schools.

[This message has been edited by ryan's mom (edited October 25, 2006).]

On Oct 25, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] [i]I've wondered it in several threads here.[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img][/b]

Don't I know it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Your persistence on this subject here is [i]the[/i] reason that I've come to understand/realize the school's [i]obligation.[/i]

Thank you again. [i]. . .bowing head and passing a velvet hammer to you in reverence. . .[/i]

On Oct 25, 2006

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]There is much missing on paper when a child does not have a 504. And I worry that lack of any formal paperwork can actually be used AGAINST a parent. Can a school district counter-argue (thinking of a lawsuit) that the parent was actually negligent? . . .

MB and Gail, these are some real questions, aren't they? Sometimes I'm scared to think of what the answers could be for so many people that are just going with the flow--don't want to pursue anything either due to ignorance or to "upset" the relationship they currently have with their schools.[/b]

Completely agree. Yes, I think these are very real and scary questions.

ryan's mom, do you think schools that have staff RN's are in a more difficult position plead 'ignorance'? regardless of any negligence on the part of a parent?

On Oct 25, 2006

Gail,

Now that is another really interesting (and difficult to answer) question because, just like doctors, there are nurses that are very up to date with peanut allergy information, while others seem far less knowledgeable that we (PA parents) are.

Our nurse at Ryan's school shocked me in how much she really got it when she said, "That epipen only buys you time." She is so right. It is not a cure or once-you-give-the-shot-the-reaction-will-stop type of thing. She was my back-up at the school when everything was being discussed and very supportive. But the impetus behind everything was me.

On Nov 27, 2006

Re-raising for some new folks posting tonite! ~Elizabeth

On Dec 5, 2006

Gail,

I need your help, my son is PA and tree nut allergic and is in the first grade. He currently has an IHP, but of course I tried for the 504 before he started Kindergarten and was denied.At this point, I don't even know if I had a formal review but thats another story. Anyway, his IHP states that I am to attend field trips but his first trip is coming up and I was not chosen. WE have a new principal, believe it or not with a small child with a nut allergy who does not believe I should be entitled to attend each field trip. I don't know if someone complained but whatever the case may be I am trying hard to get what is in my IHP. However, this and other incidences has made me see how important a 504 is even though the Director of Student Services keeps asking me what do you think you will get with a 504 that you don't already have with an IHP? My answer to him is if there is no difference then why are you so opposed me getting the 504??? No answer...just your basic politically correct responses...go to the board of ed, you are requesting policy changes , blah ,blah blah....I am not going to give up...but I was reading your thread and it seems like you are very knowledgeable and I need help. Do I need to contact OCR (Office of Civil Rights?? Do I need an attorney or some kind of child advocate to speak on my son's behalf since I tend to get emotional.

On Dec 5, 2006

got epi's,

I'll try to help you. Would you please start a new thread in the Schools board? Include as much information as possible (can you post/transcribe your IHP and who signed it). That way others will also see your request for help and reply.

Gail

On Dec 6, 2006

got epi's,

I would be fuming if I was in your situation, and things take a lot of time to get rolling in school districts. At this point, in the absence of a 504, I would write a letter to the principal w/ a few key points:

A. I *must* attend every field trip because I carry emergency medication which must be administered immediately if a reaction occurs.

B. Or...the nurse must go in my place (if teachers/support staff are going along and are "not required" to administer medicine. Also, these people must know my child's medical history and signs of a reaction.

C. My child will not go and the school will provide an adequate learning experience to match what is being learned/experienced on the field trip.

D. Future planning--my child will NOT be missing all field trips because of his food allergy (I love using the term "life threatening disability" in this case if your doctor has made that diagnosis) and be denied access to opportunities the other children are afforded because no one is properly trained AND willing to administer medicine. This is unacceptable.

I would put everything down on paper. Leave that trail because it forces answers and accountability. Let them know you expect a response.

What would they (the district) do for a diabetic? An asthmatic? Just points to ponder. I would anticipate the principal will give you a hard time since he/she has a child with a nut allergy. And I would throw that phrase, "Oh...you're child must not be as allergic as mine--lucky child!" right back at them along with doctor references that your child's food allergy is life threatening and serious.

I'm hoping things turn out okay for your and your child on this field trip.

[This message has been edited by ryan's mom (edited December 06, 2006).]

On Dec 7, 2006

No advice, other than something someone on this board posted awhile back. It was the perfect response when she was told that her child did not need a 504. She said, "Needed or not, if he`s eligible, he`s eligible." I love that response.

On Dec 14, 2006

Re-raising for Chanda4.

On Dec 17, 2006

Why is NOT obtaining a 504 for your child a DISSERVICE to your child?

What if my child senses my lack of trust in her teacher to appropriately protect her without a 504 (as has been done for the third year), if my child senses even an minute level of worry due to poor handling of her allergy by staff, just how is this affecting HER sense of well-being-- in her [i]own[/i] mind, in her tender six year old mind, a child who [i]knows[/i] what it's like to have an anaphylactic reaction and NEVER wants to experience it again. Get a 504 for your child's psychological well-being as well.

On Feb 5, 2007

Re-raising this thread to complement others & for new members here.

------------------ ~Eli[b]Z[/b]abeth, Mother to 2: DD age 5, NKA, treated as though PA/TNA DS age 8, PA, possible TNA (PA diagnosed & ana reaction 1999) Member here since 2000

On Feb 12, 2007

raising...

On Mar 8, 2007

Re-raising for Chanda, among others.

~Eliz

------------------ ~Eli[b]Z[/b]abeth, Mother to 2: DD age 5, NKA, treated as though PA/TNA DS age 8, PA, possible TNA, Latex, legumes? (PA diagnosed & ana reaction 1999) Member here since 2000

On Mar 8, 2007

Thansk for raising....I have read this thread many times...but it just hits hard when an allergist makes you question yourself. I will continue with the 504....I do think it is best [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------ Chanda(mother of 4) Sidney-8 (beef and chocolate, grasses, molds, weeds, guinea pig & asthma) Jake-6 (peanut, all tree nuts, eggs, trees, grasses, weeds, molds, cats, dogs, guinea pig & eczema & asthma) Carson-3 1/2 (milk, soy, egg, beef and pork, cats, dog, guinea pig and EE) Savannah-1 (milk and egg)

On Apr 3, 2007

bump

On Apr 11, 2007

Bumping for Tracy.

On Apr 21, 2007

Just a quick question...if you are providing everything that the parents request, why is there a need for a 504?

On Apr 21, 2007

[b]if you are providing everything that the parents request,[/b]

1) Because LTFA's are a hidden disability, and qualify for the designation.

2) Because having a written accommodation plan is a necessary part of ensuring clarity and enforcement of a child's rights.

3) Because the "YOU" of that statement above may change by way of illness, retirement, moving to another job, etc. -- and the next "YOU" may not provide everything the parents request as a means to ensure their child's safety.

On Apr 21, 2007

Quote:

Originally posted by paulette816: [b]Just a quick question...if you are providing everything that the parents request, why is there a need for a 504?[/b]

Some very compelling reasons are given in this thread as well:

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002156.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002156.html[/url]

On Apr 21, 2007

I still don't get it...point 1 is negated because we recognize it as a disability without a 504 so what's to designate?

Point 2 The health plan we provide is customized to each student's needs per parent, allergist and school input. It is most definitely clear and most definetly enforced...no 504

Point 3 The "next you" is also a nonissue where I work because even without a 504, the school district goes on full alert, every t crossed every i dotted when a parent "announces" a child has some type of food allergy. Whether a person is sick or retires is of no consequence. The district is absolutely so concerned about child safety and parental repercussions that everything humanly possible is done in the school setting to accomodate said student. In fact, on another thread I posted a situation re: a parent saying her child was allergic to peanuts. When we asked her to supply allergist input it became...well I don't actually know if she has a p-nut issue. She's never had a reaction. Huh? She said... my husband has a PA and I'm just assuming that she has one as well. Guess what...we asked over and over again for something from the doctor and the entire school year went by with nothing. Do you think for a minute that our principal would say...forget it...no paperwork...no accomodations? Maybe with another health agenda but not this one. We followed a plan for her just like we did for other FA kids...including by the way....letters to parents re: snacks and parties...(no other allergy kids in that class.) Finally at the beginning of this year we got a letter from the Mom...oh well...I guess I was wrong after all. No PA. This did not sit well with those of us who took the time to implement a plan and were so vigilant all year. I know you will respond by saying we provided a safe atmosphere for the student that year but that is lost on me. I think that parent had an obligation and responsibility to provide us with the necessary documentation upfront. So in our case...a 504 would certainly be an answer for the SCHOOL in this situation because it makes the parent accountable for a claim they make. I've worked for 16 years in this school and this is the 3rd time a situation like this has occured.

As always...thanks for all the input.

On Apr 21, 2007

Quote:

So in our case...a 504 would certainly be an answer for the SCHOOL in this situation because it makes the parent accountable for a claim they make.\

Absolutely!!

(Which is addressed in the link I put in.)

The [i]process[/i] is designed to 'get at' what is needed for a particular [i]case[/i]-- and it may include considerations aside from those normally a part of an IHCP. For example, a child with impulse control problems cannot be handled the same way as one with excellent self-control. A child with social anxiety issues would be truly [i]harmed[/i] by isolation, even if he were kept "safe" while his classmates completed a lesson without him.

A 504 also addresses the parents' and students' responsibilities. For example, the student may be responsible for wearing his/her medications, not drinking from water fountains, and for telling about symptoms. A 504 plan makes that binding.

A parent may be obligated to check classroom supplies for the teacher-- this too is binding.

On Apr 21, 2007

Paulette,

The PA has to be documented by a medical doctor as a "life threatening" allergy. That is how one gets the "disability" designation. It is NOT an automatic disability. How many times have we heard, "Oh...my child is not as severe as yours..." Gee, what does that really mean anyway. Very confusing to all involved.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you are asking that question, then I have to assume you haven't read this entire thread. There are VERY good reason why one should get protection under a 504. Not having one does not guarantee you anything. You have to read this entire thread from the beginning to understand why we have requested and received 504 accommodations for our children. It is SO important.

On Apr 21, 2007

Paulete, Please extend a firm THANK YOU to your school--it is unfortunately one in a million. Another reason to obtain a 504 or IEP for your child is: If you move to one of the other 999,999 schools that do not go out of their way and do not try to keep an allergy child safe you are behind the curve. The 'other schools' point to the fact the previous school did not have a formal 504 plan. They do this regardless of what type of environment the previous school provided.

Again, on behalf of a mom who does have a child with LTFA---THANK YOU! Your efforts are appreciated and who knows, perhaps you saved one of the many undiagnosed children or trained a teacher whose spouse may be transfered to my kids school. I can only dream!!!!! Thank you!!

P.S. I dislike 'those' parents too, it also makes my job harder!!!!!

On Apr 21, 2007

From here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002886.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002886.html[/url]

[i]Cart before the horse.

The parent has the right to consent/refuse to the child's evaluation under Section 504. If the parent refuses, then the process stops (no evaluation, no designation, and no accommodation plan).

If the parent consents to the evaluation process, 'information from a variety of sources' including those who are 'knowledgeable about the child and the disability' are considered. This is where the information from the allergist is required.

I think I understand your concern now. . . I see the question as, Is it fair for a parent to obtain accommodations without an evaluation? I think this question is already addressed by the 504 process. The horse (504 process) pulls the cart (accommodations).[/i]

On Apr 22, 2007

Quote:

Originally posted by paulette816: [b]Just a quick question...if you are providing everything that the parents request, why is there a need for a 504?[/b]

The school has a legal obligation to evaluate all kids with life-threatening health conditions for 504. This isn't about pleasing parents, it is about providing safe access to education for all students. If your school district is so concerned with crossing every t and dotting every i, I am surprised that they are unaware of this obligation.

Cathy

On Apr 22, 2007

They are aware of 504 and we are fulfilling the obligation without it and if you read the thread you will also see that they are providing safe access to education.

On Apr 22, 2007

I don't doubt that your school [i]is[/i] doing an exemplary job of 'providing safe access' even without using 504 plans, as you say.

HOWEVER-- it is fairly clear that there is some simmering resentment over the fact (which you have stated several times) that outrageously enough, apparently all a parent has to do is [b]ask[/b] for whatever accommodations they can dream up and the school will comply... without any documentation whatsoever from any physician.

Is this true????

If so, then your school needs to begin using 504 to evaluate actual student NEEDS... based on something more than a parents' whim, if you see my point.

If it does not, each time the school gets taken for a ride, it makes all the staff roll their eyes a little longer the next time. Do you understand this? Crying wolf-- and it sounds as though you wonder whether or not certain students' needs are genuine or not.

Right?

Trouble is, this 'desensitization' is dangerous for children whose needs [i]are[/i] genuine.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel it is CRITICAL that schools [i]not[/i] base accommodations on anyone's 'wishes'-- ever. No matter how well-intentioned, this opens the door to 'negotiable' and 'reasonable.' And according to federal law, it doesn't belong in a discussion of necessary accommodations of a federally protected disability.

Eventually, another (annoyed and uncooperative) parent is going to shove back against accommodations that they neither understand or respect. If those accommodations are based on 504 or IDEA, then the school can simply say "No. We are complying with federal law." Where is the school [i]without[/i] federal law backing them up? This is the position your school is [i]choosing[/i] to operate from. Why, I cannot imagine.

On Apr 22, 2007

I guess it comes down to the fact that my child is entitled to all the protections a 504 has to offer.

No matter how wonderful a school is, what lengths they go to, how great everything is going--something can change this at a moments notice. I want the legal, binding, and with accountability, document.

It spells out my responsibilities and the schools. It has a process to handle changes, disagreements, and grievances. I am not at the mercy of changes of school personel or if we change schools.

As far as I am concerned its a good thing for everyone involved.

On Apr 22, 2007

For every other health issue..CP, epilepsy, autism, MR, diabetes, there are 504's in place and no, a parent can't just dream up an agenda and expect the school to accomodate. For FA's we have IHP's. Why we don't do 504's for this I don't understand either but this would MOST definetly solve the dilemma we faced last year.

We DO evaluate a students needs and in this particular case, the 504 REALLY helps US out. All a parent has to do in our district is whisper nut allergy and the sirens go off. This is not because the district fears parents as much as they have been educated to realize what's at stake. I notice, Corvallis's Mom, as I follow this board, that you have a way of putting things out there that read into posts or make assumptions that have a negative spin ie. desensitization...eyeball rolling, You assume stuff that's not happening and that's a big problem. I personally take issue with that. So, to answer your question...no I don't understand this. I don't know what your experience is but this was certainly not the case here so I couldn't disagree with you more. The STAFF as you refer to them was myself, the teacher and the principal. We are adults and respond accordingly. Upset with that Mom, yes....next student...new IHP, all accomodations met...new beginning. End of story. That's the way we do things and to assume we penalize the next FA child is absolutely absurd,unconscionable and insulting.

On Apr 22, 2007

Quote:

Originally posted by paulette816: [b]They are aware of 504 and we are fulfilling the obligation without it and if you read the thread you will also see that they are providing safe access to education. [/b]

You misunderstand me-- I am saying that the school district is legally obligated to evaluate students who may have life-threatening food allergies for 504, regardless of what accommodations are currently being provided.

If the school has reason to believe that a student has a life-threatening health condition, they are *required* by Federal law to evaluate the student under Section 504.

What the school district is currently doing--providing accommodations without evaluating students for Section 504--is illegal and is depriving those students of their rights to due process.

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited April 22, 2007).]

On Apr 22, 2007

Hmmmm. As far as I know, paulette816 may be the first person to have ever called me a negative 'spin-meister' on the boards. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] Sorry Paulette816, that you took my observations and my opinion as a personal attack of some kind. It certainly wasn't intended to impugn you or anyone else.

I don't [i]blame[/i] you (or anyone else) for feeling a tad 'put-upon' by a situation in which a parent simply waltzes in and makes demands with no demonstration of genuine need. You should.

Frankly, it is [i]human nature[/i] to feel a bit skeptical of the next person who walks through the door after such a thing. I'm not more than human, and I don't expect educational professionals to be either.

I also stand by my evaluation that such skepticism [i]can[/i] result in hesitation. (Not saying that it [i]has[/i].) To turn a blind eye to this possibility seems a bit naive. Perhaps you inhabit a world that the rest of us are unfamiliar with, however.

If you really want answers to your questions-- they [i]are[/i] here. But to get to them, you may need to be willing to put aside the perceptions that your experience has given you. I offered a different take on things because you didn't seem to be hearing what others are saying.

Truthfully? I have to admit that the school environment you've described seems to me to be about as probable as a fairy castle appearing in my back yard. And every bit as ephemeral. But that's [i]my[/i] experience talking. (And I concede that it is not necessarily yours.... though if you read a few other posters' comments, their experiences match mine. Eye-rolling and all.)

I do admire the tenacity demonstrated in coming back to ask for clarification. But next time, don't read tone where there isn't any, okay?

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Corvallis Mom (edited April 22, 2007).]

On Apr 22, 2007

Quote:

Originally posted by paulette816: [b]For FA's we have IHP's. Why we don't do 504's for this I don't understand either but this would MOST definetly solve the dilemma we faced last year. [/b]

I hope you will ask your school why students with life-threatening food allergies are not given a Section 504 evaluation, designation, and a 504 plan. It certainly sounds like your school is providing all the appropriate accommodations. My guess is that they are simply not familiar with the fact that students whose food allergies are life-threatening qualify under Section 504.

Momcat is absolutely correct (though I believe a parent can refuse to have their child evaluated under Section 504.)

On Apr 22, 2007

There is a way, C-mom, that you word things that is disconcerting to me..3rd sentence from bottom...but I must say 3 cases in 16 years... my goodness! So childlike. As though you are trying to disparage my input. And I'm sure others reading the posts have noticed that as well. It would be like me saying after reading the tribute thread... 26 deaths in America from 1991 to present.....16 years? My goodness. This isn't happening all the time is it? If my posts radiate with resentment...your words..which they do not...you are yet again reading something into the script that wasn't there...hence proving my point. To the rest of you who have responded respectfully to my queries and comments...I value your input greatly and I thank you and will respond to your input.

On Apr 22, 2007

Quote:

Originally posted by Corvallis Mom: [b]I stand by my observation of 'resentment'-- it radiates from every post you've made in the last month, and with all due respect, I suspect I'm not the only one who has noted it.[/b]

I have certainly noted it. Even if you (Paulette) don't feel resentment yourself, you describe others at your school as feeling put out by this mother who demanded unnecessary accommodations for her child.

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited April 22, 2007).]

On Apr 22, 2007

....Thank you, Momcat.

And not to put too fine a point on this, but [i]with a healthy 504 process[/i] such a thing [i]COULD never have happened.[/i]

On Apr 22, 2007

Quote:

Originally posted by paulette816: [b]They are aware of 504 and we are fulfilling the obligation without it and if you read the thread you will also see that they are providing safe access to education. [/b]

But here is the point of why each child with LTFA deserves a 504, at least the main point to me. Right now your school is fulfilling their obligation without a 504, but they don`t have to. The can decide tomorrow to take away the peanut free table, the peanut free classroom, the epi trained teacher or any other accomodation they feel like taking away, without a 504. So we as parents are just supposed to hope every day that those accomodations that our child needs and that the school is giving will not be taken away? My child deserves better than that. She deserves to know that she is safe at school every day rather than she is safe today, last week, last month, last year, but she might not be safe tomorrow if the rules change. My child deserves better than for me to leave that up to chance.

My dd now in 6th grade has had a 504 ever since kindergarten and here is what would have happened if she did not. When she started kindergarten, the school was very accomodating. The nurse knew the law and offered us a 504. The nurse felt that all staff should be trained on epi, so that was done. 504 said dd gets a food free room (she is MFA), peanut free table, I am allowed to go on any and all field trips, etc.

Fast forward to 4th grade. Suddenly the principal retires, we get a new 504 coordinator, and the school nurse got transferred all in the same month. We got a new school nurse who felt that no one should be required to learn the epi. That`s right, no one. The nurse herself did not even know how to use an epi correctly. Without the 504 that dd had had for four years with a very cooperative school, dd would have been unable to safely attend 4th grade. My child deserves better than that. She deserves to safely attend school and not be depending on the mercy of staff with no legal protection.

On Apr 23, 2007

Corvallis Mom: I always appreciate your comments, very informative and well thought out. I have never thought of you as a negative 'spin-meister'. In fact, quite the contrary.

Paulette:Sounds like you are a bit resentful for having to provide accommodations for false alarms. I don't blame you. I would probably feel the same way. However, if your school had a proper 504 process in place these situations should not happen. The school should [b]require[/b] documentation from a doctor [b]before[/b] the accommodations are put into place. It would help hold these resentful feelings to a minimum.

On Apr 23, 2007

Quote:

Originally posted by paulette816: [b] Point 2 The health plan we provide is customized to each student's needs per parent, allergist and school input. It is most definitely clear and most definetly enforced...no 504

Point 3 The "next you" is also a nonissue where I work because even without a 504, the school district goes on full alert, every t crossed every i dotted when a parent "announces" a child has some type of food allergy. Whether a person is sick or retires is of no consequence. The district is absolutely so concerned about child safety and parental repercussions that everything humanly possible is done in the school setting to accomodate said student. [/b]

I want to answer here...not every school, actually *most* schools aren't *on board* when it comes to food allergies. I have MANY posts batteling my school and they STILL want to make my son sit in the classroom with 25 students chomping on pb cookies....where is that "the school district goes on full alert"???? I HAVE to get this 504 to even get minor accommodations. I do think NOT having a 504 is a disservice to *MY* child, it's apparent and quite obvious we need this, and we needed it yesterday.

I can understand the questions, but your questions are regarding your school, sure as heck not mine. "every t crossed every i dotted when a parent "announces" a child has some type of food allergy" isn't happening for me....quite the opposite. I wish it weren't this way, I HATE fighting my school on a daily basis, I hate paying for an advocate to fight for my child's rights....but what choice does *MY* school leave me, what choice do they leave my son???

Not meaning to sound angry, just reading the posts here and I do not understand comparing schools, no 2 schools treat food allergies the same, period. And a 504 is most deffinetly needed at *any* school (IMO)

------------------ Chanda(mother of 4) Sidney-8 (beef and chocolate, grasses, molds, weeds, guinea pig & asthma) Jake-6 (peanut, all tree nuts, eggs, trees, grasses, weeds, molds, cats, dogs, guinea pig & eczema & asthma) Carson-3 1/2 (milk, soy, egg, beef and pork, cats, dog, guinea pig and EE) Savannah-1 (milk and egg)

[This message has been edited by chanda4 (edited April 23, 2007).]

On Apr 23, 2007

from here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002886.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002886.html[/url]

Quote:

Originally posted by paulette816: I can tell you though that after it was found out that the girl wasn't allergic, people were not very happy that the Mom had us jumping through hoops for a year. This is taken so very seriously in our district. I think people felt misled.

As was brought up in the link above, providing a nut-free environment wasn't necessarily a waste as it may have been a factor in the child testing negative. I would think the staff would feel very valued after learning that they may have played a key role in something that has a long term impact on this child and family.

I also see a lot of support by posters who understand how the staff may justifiably feel resentful. You can explain to them that this is why children with LTFAs should be evaluated under 504.

As the school nurse, you have an opportunity to educate your collegues on both points.

On Apr 23, 2007

I don't mean to stray, but we have our meeting on Monday and this struck a cord.

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat: [B] If the school has reason to believe that a student has a life-threatening health condition, they are *required* by Federal law to evaluate the student under Section 504.

In reading all I can about 504s and IDEA, I must have missed this. During one of our meetings with the school, the para-nurse mentioned there was another student who constantly broke out in hives and swelled. They would just keep him in the nurse's station all day until school was out. Obviously this is not acceptable to me. Her point was that my child getting hives and swelling shouldn't be that big of a concern. I would love to take the documentation that states they are required to service this other poor child too. Regardless of whether or not the other parents know the child could have accomidations and be safer. Does this part of the law require them to inform the child's parent of the possibility of a 504???

And yes, we are requesting an actual nurse to be full time at the school. Paulette, what are your feelings about the lack of nurses in schools where they have hypersensitive allergic children? Do you think the school is asking too much from the teacher to fill the gap? Is there specific training to be a para-nurse???

edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by Peanut Militia (edited April 23, 2007).]

On Apr 23, 2007

As far as schools going on "Full Alert", I think that varies significantly. One cannot assume that one school going on "Full Alert" means all schools do...that is certainly not the case. In fact, that is why many states are passing laws to force school systems to address the issue.

Many schools are not doing 504's for food allergies. Many offer the IHCP instead; some do not even do that. I had to push all year in K this year to get a IHCP -- they have NOT agreed to a 504. Many schools do not think they have to use the 504 to address food allergies in schools.

If they were all doing this, I don't think this thread would have 25ish pages and the "Schools" board wouldn't be so active.

On Apr 23, 2007

Quote:

Originally posted by Peanut Militia: In reading all I can about 504s and IDEA, I must have missed this... Does this part of the law require them to inform the child's parent of the possibility of a 504??? [/B]

Here is an excerpt from the law:

Quote:

104.32 Location and notification.

A recipient that operates a public elementary or secondary education program or activity shall annually:

(a) Undertake to identify and locate every qualified handicapped person residing in the recipient's jurisdiction who is not receiving a public education; and

(b) Take appropriate steps to notify handicapped persons and their parents or guardians of the recipient's duty under this subpart.

and

Quote:

104.35 Evaluation and placement.

(a) Preplacement evaluation. A recipient that operates a public elementary or secondary education program or activity shall conduct an evaluation in accordance with the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section of any person who, because of handicap, needs or is belived to need special education or related services before taking any action with respect to the initial placement of the person in regular or special education and any subsequent significant change in placement.

The full text of the law is at:

[url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#S32"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#S32[/url]

Go to Subpart D.

That said, I would advise you not to get involved in the other student's situation.

Cathy

On Apr 23, 2007

Well I haven't read the whole thread but I have a question for Paulette.

Why would your school not want a 504?

I think some schools just don't "get it" and maybe that's why they fight them....but here is a school that does "get it" and from what I can tell they don't want it either.

Anyway...I'm curious about that. And why other schools fight so hard to avoid these. Seems nuts to me.

On Apr 23, 2007

Thank you for that section.

Quote:

Originally posted by Momcat:

That said, I would advise you not to get involved in the other student's situation.

Cathy

[/B]

Don't worry. I just wanted a response if she brings it up again. I will be surprised if she dosn't--she has been heard saying things like "other kids...." so why can't.... I am probably overthinking it, but I'd rather be prepared.

On May 15, 2007

raising

On May 22, 2007

104.35 Evaluation and placement. (a) Preplacement evaluation. A recipient that operates a public elementary or secondary education program or activity shall conduct an evaluation in accordance with the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section of any person who, because of handicap, needs or is belived to need special education or related services before taking any action with respect to the initial placement of the person in regular or special education and any subsequent significant change in placement.

On May 22, 2007

Just to clarify, the word "placement" means an accommodation.

So I when read that text posted by Momcat, it always helped me to read the word "accommodation" every time it says the word "placement". It just makes more sense to me and I understand it better when I do that.

So any accommodation is "placement" in 504 language. As a specific example of application, just last week I had a 504 meeting about the possibility of the school removing an accommodation. Specifically, the principal questioned whether or not it was necessary for the custodians to clean every desk every night. She brought this to the committee because some evenings it was "not possible" to complete this task. This was a big concern to us because lunches are frequently eaten in the classrooms, and peanutbutter is often included. Removing that accommodation would be, according to the law, a "subsequent signifciant change in placement" (or, a "subsequent significant change in an [i]accommodation[/i]"). Had the 504 Team removed that accommodation despite our objections, DH and I would have pursued "due process".

So "Preplacement Evaluation" means "Pre-accommodation Evaluation". That means that the evaluation comes before providing the accommodations/placement. Providing accommodations before conducting an evaluation is a violation, as Momcat has pointed out: [i]If the school has reason to believe that a student has a life-threatening health condition, they are *required* by Federal law to evaluate the student under Section 504.[/i]

Make sense?

(ETA, the outcome of our meeting was that teachers will clean the desks when it was not possible for the custodians to do so.)

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 22, 2007).]

On May 22, 2007

Wow Gail...wish you lived near me, I could use your strength and knowledge. You get accommodations that I can only dream about getting. I am very impressed(and jealous, LOL) HUGS

------------------ Chanda(mother of 4) Sidney-8 (beef and chocolate, grasses, molds, weeds, guinea pig & asthma) Jake-6 (peanut, all tree nuts, eggs, trees, grasses, weeds, molds, cats, dogs, guinea pig & eczema & asthma) Carson-3 1/2 (milk, soy, egg, beef and pork, cats, dog, guinea pig and EE) Savannah-1 (milk and egg)

On May 23, 2007

We're all neighbors here on pa dot com, right?

Anyway, half the battle is getting the designation and accommodations; the other half of the battle is holding the school to them. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On May 24, 2007

Just adding that I don't like that term "full alert". So if a child in a school with a LTFA with no 504 goes into anaphylactic shock, the school goes into "Full Alert". What is "Full Alert" anyway. Very vague. I'm the kind of person that doesn't rely on wording. I want the facts. Tell me what Full Alert means and write it down so I will understand everything that is to be done when a school goes into Full Alert. I trust no one's words. It has to be on paper.

But if it's on paper, then it really should be placed into a 504 so EVERYONE understands what happens when a school goes into "Full Alert". That terminology can mean so many different things to so many different people.

My definition of full alert may be VERY different than the school's definition. That's why I want things on paper in a 504. No wiggle room. No misunderstandings. It's specifically spelled out in black and white.

Just my opinion FWIW.

On Jun 7, 2007

re-raising

On Jun 24, 2007

raising for my weary self

On Aug 10, 2007

Re-raising for new members.

On Aug 18, 2007

Bumping for Dee

On Aug 19, 2007

WOW!

gvmom, Thanks for bumping this thread.

Gail, Thanks for starting this thread.

I have so much to learn. My mind is baffled ATM. So get ready for more questions :-)

But i will read through 1st..

Thanks gain!!!

Dee

On Aug 26, 2007

Bumping

On Dec 26, 2007

I just found this thread. Wow! Lots of great info here. I'll have to come back and read more later. My son is 2 but PA and EA. We may have to deal with this in a few years, so I'm glad I found this.

I thought it was worth bumping this thread again since it's been awihle.

On Feb 9, 2008

I just filed with the OCR as well, and they made me feel so good and validated.Good luck with your case.

On Mar 3, 2008

Originally Posted By: Gail W

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkmage: [b]My PA son will start kindergarten in the 2006/07 school year. I would really like to get up to speed on this 504 thing. [/b]

My suggestion to anyone who is considering formally requesting an Eligibility Meeting to determine a Section 504 Designation for their child is to first [b]read the full text of the law.[/b] I think this is the link:

[url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#S3"]www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html#S3[/url]

Read it. Read it again and again. Get familiar with it. Do other reading about 504. Go back and read the law text again. Become comfortable with the language and the meaning. Google phrases like "significant limitation Section 504" or "Section 504 procedure manual" and read and read. Read the posts here. Read, read, read!

Several statements that my School District administrators made to me regarding the Section 504 law were incorrect. They don't know this, and it's very helpful to be knowledgeable about the law before engaging in conversation with your SD about it. It's not exactly 'fun' reading, but I think it's really important that a parent feel very comfortable with the language and meaning of the original text of this law.

On May 10, 2008

raising for maysmom.

On Jul 5, 2008

Originally Posted By: Gail W

Okay that leads into

[b]Myth #6: School Districts are familiar with Section 504. My School District has an administrator who is the District's '504 Compliance Officer'. This person knows all about how Section 504 works, handles complaints in the school district about 504 violations, and will help me regarding Section 504 for my child with food allergies.[/b]

This one was really, really hard for me. It infuriated me that the administrator (Assistant Superintendent of Schools) assigned by the School District to assist parents/students regarding their [i]rights [/i]under Section 504 was the very person who told me erroneous information. [i]The 504 "compliance officer" wasn't in compliance with the 504 law. [/i] I still have a hard time getting my mind around this, and can't help but feel anger still.

I truly hope that your school district is familiar with how Section 504 applies to children with life-threatening food allergies. I know of other moms locally who breezed through the process with their school districts and are shocked by my experience. I even remember reading a School District policy (can't remember which state or school district) that stated that any child identified with anaphylaxis to foods was [i]required[/i] to have a Section 504 plan.

[b]Myth #7: There are lots of experts who will help you with obtaining a Section 504 Designation for your child.[/b]

The very hardest thing in all this for me was that I realized I had to do this myself. I didn't want to do this. I was far more comfortable using my time to try to find someone else, an expert of some kind, an undeniable authority who I'd hire to do this for me. A parent advocate, an attorney, my DD's allergist, another expert allergist, a school board member who would take it on. There had to be someone out there who would knew what to do, and I spent tons of effort trying to find that person.

Then, when I couldn't find that 'expert authority' to represent and work on my behalf, I turned to my husband. For a long time I wanted him to be equally as involved in this process as I was, or better yet, take the leadership role so that I didn't have to. I made piles of materials to read/review so that he could help me connect the dots. He is a physician, and I wanted him to become the 'expert' I was searching for. It caused some friction in our marriage.

I felt very frightened that there was no one who would do this for me.

Thank God for 2 people I 'met' here on pa.com who acted as my coach. One in particular was a God send.

Gail,.. I NEED to talk with you, PM didn't work. I get a blank screen. These two points are EXACTLY my scenario. I'm in the middle of 504 He(double hockey sticks)! Can you PM me? This is my first post here so maybe I'm doing something wrong???? Thanks!!!

On Jul 6, 2008

Originally Posted By: Gail W

Quote:

Originally posted by ryan's mom: [b]Most importantly, it is a LEGAL document.[/b]

FYI, an IHP is a signed, legally binding document as well. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Our IHP is signed by 4 staff: teacher, counselor, principal, and school nurse. And like the 504 Plan, our IHP was created collectively with input from our DD's allergist.

The difference is that an IHP and a 504 plan are each bound to [i]different[/i] laws, and therefore have different (legal) accountability.

An IHP is usually administered by the School Nurse, who is legally bound to her State Nurse Practice Acts (State laws that she legally must follow, licensing accountability, professional standards, etc.). In general, an IHP tends to look at PA as a health need from a medical perspective.

A 504 Plan is legally binding to a different law, the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (Section 504). This law addresses discrimination by ensuring a students' access to the learning environment. In general, a 504 plan addresses the aspects of "access" and "rights" in a "Least Restrictive (learning) Environment" (LRE).

For example, go here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001858.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001858.html[/url]

...the School Nurse realizes that Mariah would be exposed to peanut butter on the bus, that this is a health and safety issue, so she looks at it from a medical (for lack of better words) "isolation" or "exposure" perspective: [i]Mariah shouldn't be on the bus because she wouldn't be safe exposed to peanut butter.[/i]

...but 504 looks at the field trip from an "access" perspective, that Mariah must participate like her "non-disabled peers" in the "least restrictive environment". Riding in a car separated from her non-disabled peers is a violation of "LRE". [i]Solution: no peanut butter on the bus for Mariah to access the learning environment. [/i]

Does that make sense?

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 18, 2005).]

Why do all the links with [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/...."]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/....[/url] etc. not work. Every time I click on them they are forbidden. Is that website no longer around? Even all the previous posts to the ones around this one that gave sample 504 documents are forbidden. Am I doing something wrong?

On Jul 6, 2008

[quote="Gail W"]

Quote:

No, not currently, but we're working on it. A new School Board policy is scheduled for a vote next month.

There currently is no law in the state of Missouri that specifically gives children the right to carry their epi-pens. There [i] is [/i]Missouri law that allows for children to carry their [i]meter-dosed asthma inhalers[/i], but nothing that addresses epi-pens.) So, in our state, it is left up to each individual school district to address the issue of students carrying epi-pens. Our School Board has policy that [b]prohibits[/b] children from carry any medication with the one exception of meter-dosed inhalers because state law grants children this specific right.

I'm sure you already know this by now, but just in case... it is law in MO now that students requiring Epi Pens can carry them on our person. In our school it is not allowed in the elementary because they say that we can't do that with some of the special ed students that are main streamed into the classes. They also don't feel children, esp in K are able to handle that responsibility... Our solution was to have the teacher always carry it. I still have questions that they actually had it with her 100% of the time, though I have nothing to prove otherwise... I to had that faith/trust/and knew they'd do the right thing, etc... in them.

On Jul 6, 2008

Those that contributed greatly to this thread are now at a new support board. Everyone is welcome to join the active group at:

[url="http://allergy.hyperboards.com/"]http://allergy.hyperboards.com/[/url]

:)

On Jul 7, 2008

Saras_Mom, I was wondering the same thing about all the links. I couldn't get them to work either. I've meant to email the administrator to find out why but keep getting distracted reading other posts....

We are in a similar situation. DD is in Kindergarten summer school, same state. I didn't want her to carry epis yet since I felt there were so many other things to adjust to for now. We also have the teacher or para carry the epi everywhere DD goes, even to gym, art, etc. There was one day after a field trip where it was not left with the cafeteria monitor. I was with DD that day for lunch, but it is definitely something I'm keeping track of to support our 504 meeting for the fall. DD has also been instructed that her meds are to follow her. It is so hard to go with the faith and belief that others will take full responsibility. I guess that is where the 504 would (should?) come into play...

On Sep 4, 2008

bumpity bump

On Sep 14, 2008

I would love to read this complaint. I am wondering about the legal ramifications of the 504 plan. What can we do if something we included in them isnt being done?

On Sep 16, 2008

Gail and others are at [url="http://www.foodallergysupport.com"]http://www.foodallergysupport.com[/url] support forum now.

~e

On Nov 19, 2008

bump

On Dec 2, 2008

Originally Posted By: SandraShort

I would love to read this complaint. I am wondering about the legal ramifications of the 504 plan. What can we do if something we included in them isnt being done?

If the 504 plan is not being followed you can file with the Office of Civil Rights. You can even call and get some basic advice from them. Sometimes it is enough, if when you are talking to the Administration at the school, you let them know that you spoke to OCR and they feel_______________. If the school does not follow a 504 they could potentially lose their federal funding.

By jerlo on Jun 11, 2009

Hi, what is a 504 designation and how do I get that?

By jenniferbfab on Jun 11, 2009

Hi Jerlo,

Not everyone opts for a 504 or is even aware of 504s. I do not have one for my son, but know that it gives you legal recourse if the school does not meet its obligations in accommodating food allergies. PA parents who have obtained one can speak from personal experience on this. I can, however, point you to some resources I have looked at when considering whether a 504 was something I wanted to pursue for my son.

Some good info on 504s is available from the Allergy And Asthma Foundation of America (http://www.aafa.org/display.cfm?id=8&sub=16&cont=43).

I am copying and pasting a bit here from www.aafa.org:

"The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) is a civil rights law that gives you the right to ask for changes where policies, practices or conditions exclude or disadvantage you. As of January 26, 1992, public entities and public accommodations must ensure that individuals with disabilities have full access to and equal enjoyment of all facilities, programs, goods and services.

The ADA borrows from Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. Section 504 prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability in employment and education in agencies, programs and services that receive federal money. The ADA extends many of the rights and duties of Section 504 to public accommodations such as restaurants, hotels, theaters, stores, doctors' offices, museums, private schools and child care programs. They must be readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities. No one can be excluded or denied services just because he/she is disabled or based on ignorance, attitudes or stereotypes.

Does the ADA Apply to People with Asthma and Allergies?

Yes. In both the ADA and Section 504, a person with a disability is described as someone who has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, or is regarded as having such impairments. Breathing, eating, working and going to school are "major life activities." Asthma and allergies are still considered disabilities under the ADA, even if symptoms are controlled by medication.

The ADA can help people with asthma and allergies obtain safer, healthier environments where they work, shop, eat and go to school. The ADA also affects employment policies. For example, a private preschool can not refuse to enroll children because giving medication to or adapting snacks for students with allergies requires special staff training or because insurance rates might go up. A firm can not refuse to hire an otherwise qualified person solely because of the potential time or insurance needs of a family member.

In public schools where policies and practices do not comply with Section 504, the ADA should stimulate significant changes. In contrast, the ADA will cause few changes in schools where students have reliable access to medication, options for physical education, and classrooms that are free of allergens and irritants."

Another bit from AAFA:

"Making the ADA Work for You

If you or your child would like consideration due to asthma or allergies, speak with a school administrator, manager, employer, human specialist or disabilities service coordinator. He or she should know the procedure for collecting necessary information and planning appropriate changes, aids or services. You can call on a variety of sources for advice and creative practical ideas."

Here is another website worth visiting regarding 504s: http://www.foodallergyadvocate.com/Section504IDEA.htm

Hope this helps!

Best, Jennifer B www.foodallergybuzz.com

By DonnaReed on Oct 25, 2009

More excellent 504 information and continuation of this discussion as to peanut/food allergy and schools can be found at this great, free resource "FAS" at hyperboards --

foodallergysupport dot org

By Gail W on Jun 12, 2011

Raising for my friend Cristal

By DonnaReed on Oct 3, 2010

At a minimum, a 504 plan should be in place for ANY child with life-threatening food allergies (anaphylaxis).

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/sec504.index.htm

http://www.wrightslaw.com/blog/?p=58

http://www.wrightslaw.com/law/504/OCR.va.peanut.pdf

The IHCP or IHP (Individual Health Care Plan or Individual Health Plan) should be an ATTACHMENT to the 504.

The 504 is there to provide the necessary accommodations so that your child is FULLY INCLUDED and not discriminated against by virtue of his/her hidden medical disability.

By Teebst on Jul 30, 2011

Our school district has a reputation for avoiding and denying 504 plans. Other parents have spent thousands of dollars on attorneys to no avail.

If my child has not yet experienced anaphylaxis since she has never eaten anything with a peanut as a direct ingredient. All of her reactions thus far have been hives, eczema and diarrhea and only as a result of cross contaminated food.

Is it likely my school will go for a 504 plan since my daughter hasn't ever experienced a life threatening reaction? I can see them saying something like, "well, she's never experienced a life threatening reaction before so we don't see a need for a 504 plan."

By Busymomof3 on Sep 12, 2011

Great posts! Am in the process of getting 504. Was told that a 504 wouldn't cover life threatening allergies. That was 2 years ago. My allergist was very angry over this. Said it's illegal. I'm glad I am pursuing it.

By lilyan campbell on Jun 25, 2012

Can anyone please help me how I can get the 504 for my preschool child? I really need this asap since all the schools I researched are not safe and my child wants to be around children so badly. What site do I go, how much paperwork and time is involved, will they pay for a 1-1 in preschool?

By JenniC on Aug 28, 2012

We have a sec 504 what should the school be doing to provide a safe environment? I really want a peanut free school. Is there a legal way to make this happen

By smithdcrk on Aug 29, 2014

You are a commited parent climbing a steep learning curve. As a parent who has been dealt the whole deck of acronyms, I can understand that it is overwhelming. I was right there with you in 2001 when I started my journey.

If the allergy is your primary concern and not any other learning differences, start with the 504 Plan. The 504 comes under Federal Law and guarantees access to a free and public education (FAPE). Traditionally, this has been thought of when a school or public (taypayer funded) building adds a ramp to their entrance. A child restricted to a wheel chair cannot climb steps and would be denied ACCESS to the school and education because of their disability.

Over the years, 504 has expanded to include not just access to the building but access to the education. For a children with peanut allergies, the presence of open peanuts would deny them access to the classroom and the education offered. A peanut allergy interferes with a life process -eating. Therefore, the school must make accomodations not just for the education but the food service.

How to get a 504 plan?

1) Sit down with your doctor and complete the form found at http://www.foodallergy.org/document.doc?id=234 This will establish a medical need and the impact on a life activity (eating, breathing, ...)

2) Here are the steps with links to supporting documents http://www.foodallergy.org/advocacy/section-504-plans

3) 507 Posts on just this thread, no wonder you are overwhelmed! The first post on this thread give excellent advice on what should be in a 504.

GrownupLaurenMom also give excellent advice in your 504 discussion at http://www.peanutallergy.com/boards/schools/504-plan#comment-241484

[I posted the same answer in two places, not sure where you would look first. But I will now follow up in the newer & shorter discussion you started this month]

By cdnsmith on Aug 28, 2014

Hello, i have been reading and reading as much as i can about the 504 plan and im still a bit confused about it all. Im having a hard time getting it all straight. How do i start the process and i need step by step instructions in plain english. Im also trying to figure out what all the abreviations mean like IDEA ,ICP, IEP, IHCP stand for and what they mean and is this something i need to pursue also? sorry i feel so stupid right now. My daughter is starting kindergarden next week is it too late for a 504 plan? I talked with the principal and im feeling very uneasy with their lack of doing their best to keep her safe. Like kerping her epi pen in the office looked up and allowing pn products in the classroom :(

By DonnaReed on Oct 14, 2014

Just bumping.

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