Went on a field trip.. WWYD??

Posted on: Sun, 06/06/2004 - 9:34am
samirosenjacken's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/30/2002 - 09:00

I am a little unsure of how to handle this situation but I feel something needs to be said. Suggestions would be most welcome!

Marianna had a field trip on thursday to the Philly zoo. I made it clear that I had to chaperone and be on the bus or my close friend (who also has a food allergic child} would have to be a chaperone for her dd who is marianna's best friend in another classroom. A limited amount of chaperone's would be allowed to go and ride the bus. It turned out I was granted a spot and so was my friend so it all worked out. While we were driving I was talking to another chaperone and the subject of PA came up. During the conversation I realized that Marianna has a classmate who is also allergic to peanuts but nothing was said about him. His parents didn't attend and he doesn't carry an epi pen! I know he comes from a dysfunctional family (mom's an alcoholic and dad gave him peanut butter to see if he would still react and the boy ended up in the ER). I went back to the teacher to find out if she brought an epi pen for him. She just looked at my blankly and said "no timmy doesn't carry one." I asked her if she made sure Timmy's chaperone knew about the allergy and not to give Timmy any food etc.. She just stared at me and the chaperone happened to be sitting right there and he turned white while listening to the conversation.

I proceeded to caution the chaperone about not giving Timmy any food and not letting him sit too closely to kids eating pb and suggested that the boys wash their hands after lunch to avoid any accidental contact. I volunteered my cell phone number and gave the dad a brief description of what a reaction would look like. The teacher asked me for my cell number and if I had any extra epi pens that she could carry.

I am really upset that no one was looking out for this boy. Shouldn't the school have taken responsibility for him? Should he have been allowed on the trip without proper medication? I know he is in school without an epi pen. I don't think the nurse was able to get any actual documentation from a doctor about his allergy. The boy himself alerted the teacher that he was allergic to peanuts and sat at the peanut free table on his own!! The nurse has never heard from the parents at all! The teacher didn't tell the chaperone about the allergy at all. I can only imagine what could have happened if this poor father inadvertently gave the boy a snack at the zoo and something happened!

I am really upset with the teacher... she's a great teacher but she totally dropped the ball on this one in my opinion. She would have been responsible if anything happened to that child. Wouldn't the school be liable as well? I feel that this should be brought to SOMEONE'S attention so that this type of thing never happens again. Should I call the nurse? The principal? Go higher up? let it go?

I didn't sleep all night thinking of what COULD have happened to that little boy if I wasn't there. I know that he's been very lucky this year b/c he's in Marianna's class and I've worked so hard to make it safe for her so it has also been safe for him. Someone should be looking out for him.

Posted on: Sun, 06/06/2004 - 9:50am
MimiM's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/10/2003 - 09:00

Good for you! I definately think that you should let the school nurse know about this one and then let him/her take it from there. The school nurse should get in touch with the parents and have them provide documentation from the boy's doctor stating that he must carry his epipen. From there, it seems like the case should be investigated by social services. It may even turn out to be a case of neglect. He was very lucky to be noticed by you before something tragic happened.

Posted on: Sun, 06/06/2004 - 10:47am
toomanynuts's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/23/2003 - 09:00

I totally agree with Mimim. Someone should be told and if you have to talk to the school or social services I hope you will.
Most of the time when children are overlooked it will continue unless someone steps in. (Everyone just figures it is not there responsibility if the parents don't care then others take on similiar attitudes.)
The ER doctor should have at least given them a prescription for and Epi Pen.
This is a sad story I hope that you keep up with it until that little boy is taken care of.

Posted on: Sun, 06/06/2004 - 10:55am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

samirosenjacken, first of all I think you did all of the right things to protect this child.
Jesse had a child in his classroom last year who was TNA. Apparently the teacher knew about it but the principal didn't. I inadvertently said something that alerted the principal that the child was TNA and I posted about it here because I felt terrible that I had blown someone's anonymity (which some PA parents do choose for their children).
Dysfunction is NOT an excuse for this child not being taken care of.
As far as the school being responsible, yes, they would be, and I think perhaps you should speak with someone there in authority (the principal?) so that they can be speak with the parents. Duty of care does apply to the school, but duty of care really implies that the school will take care of your child as well as you are taking care of them.
It is so very hard to tell whether this is just a case of different comfort zones. I know that the PA child in my daughter's class does not wear an Epi-belt.
I don't care for Fascist intervention in one's life and personally I would be hard pressed to call Children's Aid (social or family services) here unless I really thought something terrible was going on.
Why I think you should speak with the school is this - they are in a position to speak with the other PA parents (rather than you speaking with them as perhaps a PA parent with a very different comfort zone) and they are also able to, if they feel the need, to call Children's Aid (or social services).
I know that here in the schools if a principal does suspect that something is happening to children that is not okay, they can call Children's Aid and have the family investigated.
Since the school is liable (and the poor parent who was his chaperone and his turning white [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] ), I think if you spoke with them and suggested a conversation with the PA child's parents, this might be the best solution. They may then be able to deduce if there is a reason to call Children's Aid (I know it's called something else in America).
I'd like to discuss the three points that you did make about the child and his family.
The mother is an alcoholic. Okay. Even an alcoholic Mother can be an aware and caring parent and, in extension, PA parent.
The Father fed him pb to see if he would still have a reaction. Okay. Sounds pretty stupid to all of us perhaps, but for a Father in denial, I can also actually see this happening in the *real* world. Not as something to endanger the child, but the man honestly hoping that his child was not PA. He did make it to the ER.
Then, with the school, there's the whole anonymity issue, if the parents did not want the school involved (which even some members here choose) and perhaps issues about whether or not the family can afford the prescription Epi-pen.
Years ago, when I did see things in only black and white with no gray in between, I would have said that there was something *wrong* with the parents and that Children's Aid should be called. I no longer feel that way.
The PA child in my daughter's class - his parents' comfort zone is very different than mine and yet I can tell, from looking at both of his parents, that they are probably a well functioning, loving family. Just different comfort zones (and the other day I even found out, in speaking with the Mother), different knowledge re PA.
After what happened the other day (how did your friend react who is also a FA parent?), I would speak with someone at the school and suggest that they need to speak with the child's parents. If need be, play on the fact that the school would be held liable (even by a dingbat family) and that they really need to get some precautions (even if they would be different than your requirements) in place for this child when he is both in school and on field trips.
Again, I do think you did do the right thing the other day on the field trip.
To me, the zoo is still a "high risk" situation for my PA son but even I'm probably not attending when he goes on a field trip this month to the zoo, simply because as far as I know, at this moment in time, I don't have anyone to watch my daughter and the trip extends before and after school hours. What I personally will be doing is finding out who the other parent volunteers are and finding out what group my son will be in and then speaking with the parent in charge of him.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Sun, 06/06/2004 - 11:28am
samirosenjacken's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/30/2002 - 09:00

[quote]Originally posted by Alternative to Mainstream:
It is so very hard to tell whether this is just a case of different comfort zones. I know that the PA child in my daughter's class does not wear an Epi-belt.
I disagree that this type of attitude deals with comfort zones. While I am a very strong advocate in my town about food allergies, my comfort zone is a bit "looser" than others. My girls participate in every sport, go to all birthday parties, and live as normal a life as possible but we take precautions to ensure their safety. With this child, NO PRECAUTIONS are taken. He doesn't have an epi pen at all. His parents have never alerted the school of the allergy. They have never spoken to the teacher or nurse about the allergy. It's as if it doesn't exist.
I'd like to discuss the three points that you did make about the child and his family.
The mother is an alcoholic. Okay. Even an alcoholic Mother can be an aware and caring parent and, in extension, PA parent.
Again, in this case there is no discussion with anyone responsible for the child's care that the child has an allergy. I do not feel that this parent is a caring and aware parent. And I do disagree that anyone who is drinking all the time ( or to the point where she is considered an alcoholic) can be a caring and aware parent. Drinking effects your thought process, reflex and ability to process information ... how can someone who is drunk handle an emergency and administer an epi pen?
The Father fed him pb to see if he would still have a reaction. Okay. Sounds pretty stupid to all of us perhaps, but for a Father in denial, I can also actually see this happening in the *real* world. Not as something to endanger the child, but the man honestly hoping that his child was not PA. He did make it to the ER.
Again, I disagree. Any parent who feeds his child peanut butter after being told the child has a peanut allergy is neglectful. This child in particular was diagnosed with several food allergies as a young baby/toddler and we are told he outgrow all but the peanut. I do believe that giving him peanut butter to challenge him is completely irresponsible. The fact he made it to the ER is plain lucky... he could just as easily died.
After what happened the other day (how did your friend react who is also a FA parent?),
She felt exactly as I did. She is the one who has first hand information about the family in question. We took an epi pen count (she is allergic to bees and had several epi pens on her as well) to make sure we had enough for my dd, for her and for this boy in case of an emergency.
[This message has been edited by samirosenjacken (edited June 06, 2004).]

Posted on: Sun, 06/06/2004 - 12:45pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset you. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]
I'm trying to remember all of the other PA parents I've met in *real* life through my children's school.
The TNA child in my son's class last year, he did not carry an Epi-pen. As I posted above, the principal was not even aware that this child was TNA. There was no emergency medical plan in place for the child. Yet, in speaking with his Mother, I learned that he had been administered the Epi-pen in the past by her for obviously an anaphylactic reaction.
Given that my son's teacher last year was so not "with it" even with a child who was wearing an Epi-pen strapped to his body, simply making the teacher aware of her child's TNA, as this parent did, I personally didn't feel was enough.
I don't know if the office at the school has an Epi-pen for the child in my daughter's class that does not have an Epi-belt on.
Last year, there was another PA child in my son's school and the child did have a fanny pack carried from class to class with her. However, I did happen to get a glance at her emergency medical plan and the instructions to the school were VERY different than what I would have given them for my child.
How old is this little boy? Obviously somehow somewhere he "got it" about his allergy if he's able to sit at the "peanut free" table.
There was also the case last year of the Mother ranting and raving about her child's red dye allergy and how the school wasn't taking care of her child's needs but was of the PA child (meanwhile she's ranting to me) and yet she had never told the school that her child was allergic to red dye. I told her that she should speak with the principal.
If the Mother's alcoholism is that severe (it is a progressive "disease" of choice), then Children's Aid could be called regardless of whether her child is PA or not. Often times where there is one alcoholic parent, the other parent (even if it is the Father in this case) becomes the primary caregiver and would be able to deal with a reaction with his son.
I'm sure no member here is going to post if they've ever done so or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has perhaps fed their child pb (with precautions in place of some sort - i.e., perhaps simply the knowledge that they will be going to the E.R.) in the hopes that their PA child is not PA. To me, it *could* be denial.
I was simply trying to look at it from a different point of view and I'm sorry if I did upset you.
That's why I still strongly suggested that you contact the school because they are in a position to call Children's Aid if they feel the child is being neglected. The child could be taken care of in all other aspects of his life, except obviously, in regard to his life threatening allergy, and that is something that they certainly could call Children's Aid to have investigated.
Also, again, there is the question of anonymity. I know that there are members here (and again, not a vocal lot) that do not want their children's schools to know that they are PA, for whatever reasoning they have.
In the previous town I lived in, my son was thought to be the only PA child in the school. He wasn't. There was a 12 year old boy that was also PA. His parents didn't want the school to know. Why, I don't know. He also didn't carry an Epi-pen and obviously if the school didn't know he was PA, there was no emergency medical plan in place for him or an Epi-pen in the office for him.
Do I disagree with how this child's PA is being handled by his parents? Damn straight.
I think what I was trying to say though is that even parents that aren't alcoholics or aren't in denial do do differently than what we think *should* be done. Is it horrifying?
Yes.
I personally feel that if we think that schools should be held liable should anything happen to our PA children, that we are also responsible for fully disclosing our children's medical conditions to them (so not just with PA child, but say with my daughter and her migraines, or both children and their asthma). It is my responsibility as a parent, IMHO, to inform the school. But again, I have seen people that would not be considered "dysfunctional" that have chosen not to have their PA child wear an Epi-pen and have chosen for their PA child to remain anonymous. Not what I would do. Not something I agree with.
I think also, in your first post, you were very upset with the school and particularly the teacher and my first thought was "what about the parents?"
If the parents don't request/require precautions, how is the school to know that there should be any? You had also mentioned that there is no medical documentation with the school about this child's PA.
If I post a question tonight asking if any members here remain anonymous at school, no one is going to answer.
I know that the Mom last year whose TNA child was anonymous as far as school administration was concerned, she was a wonderful, caring Mother.
And again, if the family is that dysfunctional, Children's Aid can be called on them regardless of PA being involved. That PA is involved perhaps makes for an even stronger case for the family to be investigated and perhaps, for you, it is a call you would care to make for your own peace of mind.
I honestly did not mean to upset you.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Sun, 06/06/2004 - 12:56pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Just the thread I had re the anonymous TNA child last year:-
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000794.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000794.html[/url]
Again, I am so sorry that I upset you. I really didn't mean to. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Sun, 06/06/2004 - 8:20pm
robinlp's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/14/2002 - 09:00

All I can think is that you were put on that field trip for a purpose. Thank goodness you were there to keep that child safe. I can't even imagine how many close calls this child has had if he does not carry and epi and it does not sound like anyone was aware of his allergy. I definitely agree that someone needs to know about this. I think I would start by speaking to the Principal and see if they can take it from there. There is no excuse for this child not to have protection (epi).
I wish more parents were like you, I'd feel a lot safer having my child go on a field trip w/ someone like you along!!

Posted on: Sun, 06/06/2004 - 11:47pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001388.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001388.html[/url]
to compliment this thread.

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 12:27am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Momma Bear, I personally found the thread you provided the link for above, to be an important part of the discussion going on here. JMPHO.
Again, if I posted a question asking how many PA parents choose to have their children's PA not known to the school, NO ONE is going to answer. Perhaps we do not have any members of PA.com who do choose anonymity for their PA children.
But I have seen it done in *real* life. Have never asked the parents why they don't want their children's life threatening allergy to be known to the school. Can't personally understand it, because we have been so open with our son's (especially with regard to having newspaper articles done about him/his allergy).
But do I have the right to question another PA parent who does choose anonymity? I know that last year, in the thread that I posted the link to, I was very upset that I did "blow the cover" of the TNA child. Upset because it was not my *right* to tell the school he was TNA. It was his Mother's responsibility and/or choice, not mine.
I also think the point I was trying to make was that even families that are not dysfunctional still choose anonymity or choose not to have their children wear an Epi-pen. Why, I don't know.
Do I think Children's Aid *should* be called because another PA child is not wearing an Epi-belt? Personally, no. Because I don't know the intricacies of the family and why they have gone the route they have gone.
Do I agree with what happened on this field trip? No. Would I have reacted in a similar fashion? Yes.
My daughter has one field trip left this year and I will not be attending. But I was thinking about this since this thread was raised. It would be very interesting for me to go to see if the PA child's parents are in attendance, to see if there is an emergency medical bag for the child, etc. (remembering he does not wear an Epi-belt).
Last week Jesse had a field trip that I considered "low risk" because we have gone so many times. I spoke with his teacher and she said that she would make sure that she had his emergency medical bag. What I did that morning was go into the office myself and check out the bag and personally handed it to the teacher, who I had to speak with regarding something else anyway.
As I posted in this thread, Jesse has what I do consider a more "high risk" field trip this month and it is 99.9% clear to me, at this point, that I will not be able to attend. What I will do is make sure that every possible precaution I can possibly take is taken to ensure his relative safety while he does go to yes, the zoo.
The situation does sound not okay and again, that's why I posted that I thought it would be a *good* thing to call the school and speak with the principal. The principal can then make a call to Children's Aid if they feel it is something that is warranted.
I'm not clear if the Children's Aid Society of Ontario has their mandate posted on the internet or not. It would be an interesting document to look at especially with regard to health issues and with regard to this thread.
I think, for me, again, it was that there are no precautions in place for this PA child, and that is really separate from the fact that his family is dysfunctional and his Mother is an alcoholic. I'm sorry, but it is. I have seen enough PA parents in *real* life who have chosen anonymity or for their children not to wear an Epi-belt and they were what would be considered perfectly *normal* functional families.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 12:28am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quotes from this thread:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000894.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000894.html[/url]
[i]My point exactly. We NEED legislation, policy, procedures. Everyone needs to be on the same page. It is not enough to start on a case by case basis. It is not enough to call teachers in on every infraction of individual plans. It is not enough to have a plan for just your own child (with regards to your own child). Why? I *personally* found such plans to be a whole lot of "lip service". Yes, yes, you can pursue infractions, I know. (Especially with regards to 504 plans). I had a lawyer who dealt in school law inform me that the school district (meaning people who worked for it) would probably look at a lawsuit and say "Go for it", since the money would not be comming out of their pockets anyway. I on the other hand, would have difficulty comming up with the retainer fee for legal representation. He did state he would have no reservations about taking money anyway. He got paid either way. Secondly, we need to be directing our energy into addressing our local legislative bodies (or even higher up the chain) to make such policies. Secondly, even though we have things such as school policies (Canada) regarding food allergies, and 504 plans (US), the fact that these "plans" vary from child to child with the SAME diagnosis (ie: remember, it's "like being pregnant", either you are or you aren't, the potential is there ----re: peanut allergy), undermines parents in dealing with them. We (as a PA community) need TO COME TO SOME AGREEMENT ON THE METHODOLOGY of handling pa. And until we do, laws governing specifics as opposed to having such things as "individualized 504 plans" will never become. That we (as a pa community) cling to maintaing the majority of power in deciding how to manage such a diagnosis is what I find to be undermining our efforts. Remember, I said *majority* of power. We need not give up all of it. For instance, when you enter a hospital, you can make certain choices about your care, but do prescribe the meds? treatments? You have the right to choose whether you want to be a "full code", but you do not run the code. There are policies regarding that. Can you imagine the confusion, if we allowed patients to entirely run the system? You would not believe some of the things patients and family have suggested regarding their care. (trust me, PA is not the most difficult thing to manage, nor is it impossible to manage) *I* for one, would WELCOME policies (based on medical findings, literature, and experience of families dealing with PA) that dealt *specifically* with methodologies of managing PA. Methodologies that erred on the extreme possibilities. Some parents may not agree with that, but in order to deal with such things, and extreme possiblilities, we may all have to make concessions. That is the nature of the beast. Take seatbelts, speedlimits, and airbags.
*************************
Next, is not PA a "health related" issue? Does it not involve body systems? Do we not seek medical advice and consult medical literature in its management? I did say such policies should err towards the extreme, did I not? As to comfort zones and the management of such problems, could you imagine if we allowed the same in medical institutions with regards to what has become standard and acceptable practice based on literature, medical opinion, patient input, and what has been found to be expected outcomes? ie: where I live "MONA" (morphine, oxygen, nitroglycerin, aspirin) greets every patient with the symptoms of myocardial infarction at the door.So to speak. (Of course, this could change based on new information in medicine---policies need continual review and updating periodically) If there is a contraindication for such care, it is adjusted accordingly based on RISK. Ie: does witholding the treatment pose a bigger risk than administering it? Hopefully, patients have taken certain precautions to make persons aware of conditions if they are unable to do so. ie: Medical Alert bracelets. Do we allow patients to dictate different unapproved care? Absolutely not. Do you have the right to refuse treatment sign a form to leave AMA (against medical advise)? Absolutely (provided you are deemed competent to do so and after the risks have been explained to you and the same documented). Similarly, situations regarding such standardized care in relationship to PA in the school systems could be developed. However, if there is a consensus of professional opinion and overwhelming evidence certain methodologies provide a certain level of protection to a child with such a diagnosis (PA), and a parent refuses certain steps to ensure a childs safety, then one must question the motives of the parent. Ie: is this a religious conviction? And such documented. Example: Jehova Witnesses often refuse blood products in the hospital setting. I have had patients die simply because they refused blood products. However, if you were a heart surgeon, would you agree to do open heart on a patient who did refuse blood products? Of course, I would expect such protocols regarding PA to be developed by licensed, educated, experienced professionals in their field and on the results of research (which may include the input of families who have dealt with PA, but not based entirely on that alone). Why licensed, why level of education, why experts, etc? Because that is what the STANDARD is. Ya wanna make policies, ya gotta have some credentials. IE: Courtroom trials are often won on the opinion of an "Expert Witness". This I know through personal experience. LOLOLOLOL.
**********************
My point about the "individualizing" is this: That it does not fundamentally alter the specifics of the broad plan: those things that there is a consensus on that are deemed "necessary" in managing a life threatening food allergy such as PA. ie: what if the policy states no "may contains" but a parent of a PA child states "may give may contains". would this is this appropriate? It is a small example of the potential problems with allowing persons who may or may not fully understand PA to develop "individualized" plans that superceed formal policy that may be based on expert opinion, licensed professional opinion (ie: which opinion is a school nurse obligated to oblige? the higher license or the parental opinion?), and research opinion.
Diabetes is a condition that indeed may vary in terms of difficulty controlling and may need more individualized control. The actions of what other eat do not directly affect the individual (as with inhalation reactions, or cross contamination issues) However, correct me if I am wrong, I think many of us agreed that PA carried certain POTENTIAL with regards to anaphylaxis, regardless of history of reaction
******************************
Let's get hypothetical here. Let's say having PA is like being pregnant. Either you are, or you aren't. Let's say due to the nature of the beast, the Potential for a Fatal Anaphylactic Reaction is always a possibility. Let's say that the immune system is a fickle animal and is in a state of continual adjustment. Let's say that in the overall PA population, there is a tendency for the immune system to become more sensitive to peanut protein over time and therefore repetetive exposure is our enemy. Let's say a "Standardized Protocol" was developed by persons similiar to the ones Gail suggested. Let's say part of this protocol stated "no may contains". Let's say most of this protocol erred on the side of caution. Remember, these are hypothetical situations. If a group of medical, immunological, and healthcare professionals conducted research (which would involve input from those with pa and their families), investigated, and used their experience and expertise (maybe groups such as Gail suggested) to compile a Standardized Protocol for schools to use regarding PA, how would you respond to the situation you presented? Would you, given the hypothetical circumstances, agree with erring on the side of caution? What about the parent that allows "may contains" (given the hypothetical situation)? Should an "individualized plan" be permitted to allow for that (given the hypothetical situation)?
*****************************
The mom (A or B -----can't remember which) who would feel ok giving her child the "may contains". In your example situation. I still wonder about that (giving may contains deliberately). Is this "OK" to do, given the nature of PA, and the possibility of peanut protein in the item?? Does a more relaxed "comfort zone" make this acceptable (giving "may contains"). See, this is where we, as a PA community, need to start commiting to across the board "right way" or "wrong way". I'm not saying on everything. But on the big issues. Epi-pens. Where Epi-pens are kept. Training of individuals, documentation of such. What will be allow our children to eat at school.(ie: homebaked goods? "may contains", food that could be a risk----but is allowed because we haven't had a problem yet?). There are still parents who have children with documented PA (by history and blood testing) who don't feel an epi pen is necessary. I know. I met two in two days this week. What are the odds of that? Complete strangers. Funny where God puts ya and who ya meet?
****************************
I did not realize that the terms "right" and "wrong" would be as offensive to some persons. I myself do not find them quite so controversial. Recently, I have offered a few explanations as to why this is so for me.
Let me continue, and offer a "short" (lol) explanation further.
You posted:
"Anyway, that's my opinion. And it is also my choice if I want to put merlot on my waffles instead of maple syrup. Each of us has to decide how to live life, and we can suggest guidelines but I think it is hard to say right/wrong."
the following is not directed at anyone in particular, or at all, on this board. It is merely an attempt to explain my position. :
Often, in my line of work, I have the frequent occasion to make the aquaintance of individuals who reserved the right to act against better judgement. In these circumstances, I am required to make decisions based on SOP's, patient care policies, Standards of Nursing Care, physician's orders (which by the way, are based on similiar directives), etc., that have been deemed "right" in order to help remedy their current state of affairs. Hope this helps you understand how I arrived at my "opinion" and where I am comming from
***************************
Actually, I work in ICU, CCU, Trauma, and float to other areas as needed. I find the same principles I mentioned govern those areas as well. Just think......not too long ago CPR was not a "Standard" in the hospital setting. At some point it must have been a theory, no? Now, some fast food chains have persons who are capable of it.
If not for CPR, how could we accomplish open heart surgery? Bypass? Organ transplant???
In addition to CPR, we have PALS and ACLS. Within each pathway, are guidelines by which to "customize" the protocol. But "standard" guidelines.
I cannot help but remember this quote:
"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards." -- Mark Twain
(Disclaimer: I do not necessarily hold the same opinion, nor do I intend it as an "across the board" statement.)
After dealing with my son's previous school regarding a 504 plan...........I can only say(*Personally Speaking here*): There must be a better way. It is in my nature to find a better way.
I understand you have had great success with your school, Gail, and I commend you on that. It is a great accomplishment. But, you have also been blessed with the grace, composure, knowledge, and resources to handle that mighty task. Again, my congratulations! I might add you have developed "policy" along the way, have you not? Is this a result of your success or due to it? By far, you are one of the persons on this board I hold in high esteem.
Of course, schools have a tendency to deal with issues in certain ways. Maybe individualized ways. Take IEP's for example. Also, there is much "theory" in developmental thought. This I know from dealing with "special needs" for both my children. Yes, I find it frustration. At work, however, I deal much in action, reaction. And sometimes rather quickly. I titrate a drip, I get a specific reaction, and usually quickly. Hopefully! It is paramount to success in such a field (healthcare) that we can count on certain expected outcomes. PA to me represents a healthcare issue. Albeit in a school setting at times. I don't believe it is that unmanageable, considering the healthcare spectrum. I believe that with proper collaberation, "standardized" proceedures, possibly including "proceedure within proceedure" are possible. Granted, healthcare policiy is volumes thick. I don't find it hard to follow though, since much of what is directed in it is the natural course of action, given my education, and the education of others in my field. We are, for the most part, on the same wavelength. Given what I know regarding anatomy and physiology, and pharmocology (for example, but education not limited to) certain policies just naturally follow.
Yes, we do not know all there is to know about PA, but would you grant me that we do have "the big picture" in focus as far as we are able? (similarly with most healthcare issues, one cannot say we know all there is to know) Would policy (regarding the school setting) erring in the favor of the most protective measures be that bad? Of course, if there is but one child in the school history who's "individualized plan" dictates certain measures to begin with, say "no may contains" or a "peanut free" school, would not a child with a "individualized plan" who was allowed "may contains" (although I don't agree with that *personally*) or did not have the requirement for a "peanut free" school, still abide under the rules of the previous "individualized" plan mentioned? Would it be so hard for one PA parent to submit their child to certain conditions that they may find exceed their "comfort zone" requirements(that would err in the safest extreme according to what is known or suspected about PA) considering (as a Parent of a PA child myself) I ask non-PA parents to make accomodations for my child in school?
Would not such policy offer protection to children who did not have as concerned or informed adults "going to bat" for them? I say this with caution, but resolve since daily I see children (in general and not specifically related to PA) without parents who demonstrate protection, love, or nurturing. We cannot assume PA to be elevated above this possibility. Is it not the duty of society to offer some means of protection for such children? Should PA be any different?
Of course, "Standardized Policy" would probably consist of several, or many, sub-policies that together could work in agreement to provide a safe, less stressful (for everyone) appropriate environment in school. Equally.
**********************
If I was required to handle healthcare issues differently for each person that I cared for in the hospital setting,(and the number of healthcare issues I would venture to say is endless), and stricly according to their own preferences and desires, and not according to "standards" and "acceptable practice" for instance, let alone each shift interpret those desires.........I dare say it would be impossible to offer remedy, treatment, theraputic intervention, or even maintain continuity of care. Let alone maintain a safe practice. Again, I will reiterate that patients are allowed to make healthcare CHOICES. That is their right, but choices within a continuum of care, and within current acceptable standards of care. It is the "price" one pays when allowing others to care for them in a professional setting. As Gail elluded to previously, it offers protection for both the caregiver and the one receiving the care.
********************************[/i]
Link to thread discussing the [b]Mass. Document[/b]
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000907.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000907.html[/url]

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 12:45am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Was there a Registered Nurse on the field trip?
Is there even an Appropriately Trained and Experienced, Certified School Nurse, BSN, RN, Possibly Full Time at the School?

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 1:08am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Momma Bear, I see where you're coming from with this. However, until there is a day (if ever) where there is standardized policy (again, a GREAT reason to check out the Province of Prince Edward Island's policy re anaphylaxis in the schools, posted here), what about this particular situation?
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 1:10am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Although Canadian specific, also remembering the conversation I had with the school board superintendent last year with regard to asthma in the schools (which would be, at this point in time more prevalent than PA) and he said that the school board does not want to "policy people to death".
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 1:38am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Alternative to Mainstream:
[b]Momma Bear, I see where you're coming from with this. However, until there is a day (if ever) where there is standardized policy (again, a GREAT reason to check out the Province of Prince Edward Island's policy re anaphylaxis in the schools, posted here), what about this particular situation?
[/b]
I am speaking [i]exactly[/i] about [b]this[/b] situation.
[i]Again, was there a "School Nurse"?
*Personally Speaking*: [b]My State Nurse Practice Act[/b] holds me accountable in many ways.
Delicately, Intricately, and [b]Inextricably[/b] intertwined is also
MORAL/ETHICAL Obligation
Professional Standards
Standard of Care
Individual Professional Experience
Duty to Act
Multidisciplinary Approach
Team Management
**********************
Don't Know How Else I Could Respond,
*Personally Speaking*
I mean is it WWYD, or How Much Can You Do?

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 1:45am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Alternative to Mainstream:
[b]Although Canadian specific, also remembering the conversation I had with the school board superintendent last year with regard to asthma in the schools (which would be, at this point in time more prevalent than PA) and he said that the school board does not want to "policy people to death".
[/b]
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
[url="http://community.nursingspectrum.com/MagazineArticles/article.cfm?AID=11915"]http://community.nursingspectrum.com/MagazineArticles/article.cfm?AID=11915[/url]
[i]Third Paragraph. Second Sentence.[/i]
Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy, content, or currentness of the link in this post.

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 1:47am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

He!!, [i]Fifth Paragraph[/i] too. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 2:01am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Momma Bear, I'll check out the link you provided later (something to do with a migraine and needing some rest with meds
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] ).
My question would be, should the child have had a reaction, if there is no documentation whatsoever with the school regarding this allergy, what would have happened had an Epi-pen been administered?
I know that the difficulty I had with the liability waiver that I was supposed to sign with this school board was that they didn't want to assume responsibility for either administering the Epi-pen or NOT administering it.
Again, why the PEI policy is a wonderful document to look at.
Or, in thinking, and it has been discussed here before, what about children who do not have a known allergy to say bee stings? A child gets stung and has a reaction and the school recognizes what is happening. Are they allowed to use an Epi-pen that is already in the school for another child on this child?
However, this is all a matter of semantics, really, and I'm not sure if helping with the original question.
What would I have done? And perhaps that's what I should simply have answered and the original poster wouldn't have been so upset with my response.
I would have done exactly the same thing she did.
How would I have followed-up to-day? I would have called the school and told them about my concerns and suggested that perhaps the school needed to call the other PA parents and get something worked out.
I know that when I did blow the cover (can't think of a better expression) of the TNA child last year, the principal was going to speak with the Mother. I guess so that they could clarify that there was an emergency medical plan in place, an Epi-pen somewhere (since the child had had anaphylactic reactions), etc.
In calling the school though, I would simply be presenting myself as another PA parent who was extremely concerned about the lack of ANY provisions/precautions for this PA child and that his chaperone in particular was completely unaware of the situation.
When my son has had to have another parent supervise him on field trips, I have always spoken with the other parent. Last year, when Jess went skating, a situation that it's totally useless for me to attend, I asked the parents of the TNA child if it was okay if he was in their group. It was. They knew how to administer an Epi-pen and obviously Jesse has his and the emergency medical bag also went with him.
But in calling the school I wouldn't be saying, hey, the Mom's an alcoholic and the family is dysfunctional. I really truly believe those things are extraneous to the situation of the PA child until proven otherwise. Meaning that until someone can say that this child's PA is not being taken care of the way "we" would take care of it because the Mother is an alcoholic, that matter is totally separate.
I *could* digress into another discussion that I have wanted to since last night - that there are functioning alcoholics in *real* life, that there are "week-end" alcoholics.
However, that's a whole other discussion and obviously not something that needs to be discussed here, unless, again, it can be proven that this child's PA is being neglected solely because his Mother is an alcoholic and the family is dysfunctional.
I would have done the same thing as was done. To-day I would have placed a call to the principal to express my concerns, not about the family situation, but about the precautions that *could* be discussed with the other PA parents.
And yes, a totally different question - what CAN you do?
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 2:05am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Or, what about when I'm on field trips with a group of children or simply in the school yard and hear a child with an asthmatic cough.
Last year I do know that Ember had a child in her class with uncontrolled asthma. She was coughing so badly before she entered the classroom that I asked her (poor wee thing), if she had had her puffers that morning. No, she hadn't.
So, I did speak with the teacher (who did have authorization from the parent to administer asthma meds) and said that the child had not had her puffers before coming to school and perhaps the teacher would like to check with the parent and get some meds administered. She was coughing so badly she was almost throwing up.
But in seeing (or really hearing) the children I hear now, do I run into the school each time and say, hey, there's a child out there with an asthmatic cough - does he/she have puffers? Can you call and have them administered?
Also understanding that an uncontrolled asthmatic cough *can* be different than an anaphylactic reaction.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 4:01am
samirosenjacken's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/30/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Was there a Registered Nurse on the field trip?
Is there even an Appropriately Trained and Experienced, Certified School Nurse, BSN, RN, Possibly Full Time at the School?[/b]
There is a full time RN at the school. She does not and is not required to attend field trips. It is difficult to get the school nurse to attend a field trip b/c of the money they need to spend to get a substitute for her when she's away from the school. Our action plan states if I cannot attend or my DH cannot attend and the school won't send a nurse, my child cannot go on the field trip.

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 4:54am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

samirosenjacken, how old is your child (and I guess that would also answer my earlier question about how old the other PA child is)?
That is the one difficulty we have here, in Ontario, Canada. We don't have school nurses anymore.
One question I did think of. Are you allowed to approach the principal or since you do have a school nurse and discuss another family at all, period?
Obviously I did last year when the asthmatic child needed her puffers in Ember's class. When I breached the anonymity of the TNA child, it wasn't me speaking with the principal about the family (or his Mother and him actually) but I was in a meeting with regard to my son's PA and it just slipped out by mistake.
I was just wondering if it's a dialogue that the school nurse or principal would even be able to have with you even though it is a crucial, important one. Are they allowed to speak about another parent(s) with another parent?
I'm sorry, you did respond to Momma Bear's question and not the one I had (which was about the child's age), so I can only assume that you are still upset with me, which was not my intention at all. Not at all. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] Especially given that I posted I would have done EXACTLY the same thing you did and what phone call I would have tried to make to-day if I had been in the same situation.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 5:43am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by samirosenjacken:
[b] Again, I disagree. Any parent who feeds his child peanut butter after being told the child has a peanut allergy is neglectful. This child in particular was diagnosed with several food allergies as a young baby/toddler and we are told he outgrow all but the peanut. I do believe that giving him peanut butter to challenge him is completely irresponsible. The fact he made it to the ER is plain lucky... he could just as easily died.
[/b]
I've seen peanuts compared to loaded guns on this side. Metaphorically speaking.

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 5:58am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Alternative to Mainstream:
[b]
My question would be, should the child have had a reaction, if there is no documentation whatsoever with the school regarding this allergy, what would have happened had an Epi-pen been administered?................
............Or, in thinking, and it has been discussed here before, what about children who do not have a known allergy to say bee stings? A child gets stung and has a reaction and the school recognizes what is happening. Are they allowed to use an Epi-pen that is already in the school for another child on this child?
However, this is all a matter of semantics, really, and I'm not sure if helping with the original question.
[/b]
I don't think it is a matter of sematics at all. Have you seen the MA Document?
[i]but I digress[/i].
[b]Or maybe not.[/b] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Anywhoooooooooooooo.
Is the school obligated to respond to unknown anaphylaxis in the manner you describe:
[i]"Or, in thinking, and it has been discussed here before, what about children who do not have a known allergy to say bee stings? A child gets stung and has a reaction and the school recognizes what is happening. Are they allowed to use an Epi-pen that is already in the school for another child on this child?"[/i]
Why or why not?
I mean, not sure myself how "good samaritan" laws pan out regarding lay persons "diagnosing and treating" with prescription drugs on persons with [i]no known previous diagnosis[/i].
I mean, wrt to medications administered by a layperson, is there prior documentation regarding it? [i]Who does that come from[/i]?
Gotta ask myself if there are laws in place regarding this already. [i]Pro or Con.[/i]
Just being rhetorical. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I mean, are there I know how it applies to a licensed RN, but not the layperson, although I have my suspicions. If my suspicions are correct, it's probably due to some very good reasons. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Anyone?
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 6:08am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Okay, I know I seem to be digging a deeper and deeper hole for myself with this one, but if the child had several food allergies and he outgrew all of them but PA, is it not possible, even remotely, that his Father gave him pb as an oral challenge at home to see if he had outgrown this food allergy as well?
Sorry, can't help but take into consideration that there were other food allergies that were outgrown because it was posted as part of the original post.
On the other hand, yes, Momma Bear, did the Father not in fact, point a loaded gun at his child's head and even further, shoot it?
Or, is this all hearsay and who are "we" (and are we in fact collective) to comment on anything?
I am positive that there are members here who have given their children a peanut product in the hopes that they had outgrown the allergy (with precautions of some sort in place). If I raise THAT question is anyone going to answer? Of course not.
I haven't because my son's second reaction at the age of 2-1/2 was anaphylactic so I knew he hadn't outgrown his allergy and never would.
What about the NAET posters that we have posting on the board every so often? Do people feel that Children's Aid should be called on them because they *subject* their children to an alternative treatment (and apparently cure) that most all of us here do not agree with?
But again, to answer the original question, would have done the same thing. Would have spoken with the chaperone and put as many precautions into place for the child that I was able to.
But, in follow-up, I would also be calling the school and just seeing if I could have a dialogue. Just say, hey, this happened to me when I was a chaperone on a field trip Thursday and here's why I'm concerned (and again, as a PA parent, not with mention of the child's dysfunctional family and alcoholic Mother). Are you, the principal, able to find out why this child does not have an Epi-pen? Are you, the principal, concerned that this child does not have an Epi-pen?
And you know what, aside from the anonymity question and oral challenge question, I could also raise the question about who doesn't have an Epi-pen at the school with their child and again, do you think anyone is going to answer? To face the wrath of judgement? I think not.
I am fortunate. I learned what I needed to know about PA unfortunately because my son almost died. I learned what I needed to know to get him into school because I had a light bulb moment. Having said that, still 99.9% of what I know about PA comes from this website and the members' contribution thereof. What about PA parents that do not have internet access? What about PA parents that do not know about PA.com? What about PA parents that do not know about 504 Plans in America?
I actually think this was more than a "what would you do" question. I think it was a commentary on the child's family life and how people were really feeling that something should be done for the child regardless of his allergy. That's fine. That's why Children's Aid (in Ontario, I know it's different in the U.S.) exists. To address people's concerns about families and children in particular.
If it wasn't more than a "what would you do" question, I honestly still believe the other information was extraneous and to be quite honest, shouldn't have been posted. Or, is one assuming that the drunken Mother couldn't be a member of PA.com or possibly someone that lurks here and is getting ready to ask questions that could get her to the place where some precautions are in place for her child?
On the other hand, what if the family does not want any precautions? Do they not have this right? I mean, since there is not standardized protocol in the schools, per se, do they not have the right to remain anonymous should they choose?
I don't know. I'm asking an honest question. Do they have that right?
Is it comparable to the Jehovah's Witness and their refusal of blood transfusions? Is it? In all honesty? Is it a comparable situation?
As I just posted within the last week here, last year another member was very upset that I would consider taking my son to a bowling alley (or allowing him to go on a field trip with the school there). The member actually thought it was something that *could* be investigated by Children's Aid. C'mon now. Not when I read that there are PA children here who actually bowl every week or that do attend bowling parties in relative safety. In that instance, it was a "comfort zone" issue.
And I will go back to ask, even if it is never answered, how does the child know to safeguard himself by sitting at the peanut free table if he hasn't been taught something about his allergy by someone?
Perhaps that's all his parents have felt was necessary. Sit at the peanut free table and you'll be okay. Who knows?
Again, to reiterate, I would try to open a dialogue with the school to see if they could speak with the other PA parents. I would have done exactly the same thing that was done on Thursday with the child, not in my care, but certainly on the same field trip as my group of children from his classroom.
So, yes, answers last night and to-day of what other people would do - most of which was call the school or call Children's Aid.
What did happen?
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 6:12am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by samirosenjacken:
[b]
There is a full time RN at the school. She does not and is not required to attend field trips. It is difficult to get the school nurse to attend a field trip b/c of the money they need to spend to get a substitute for her when she's away from the school. Our action plan states if I cannot attend or my DH cannot attend and the school won't send a nurse, my child cannot go on the field trip. [/b]
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Gotta wonder if the school would be [i]required[/i] to send a school nurse. Don't know myself. But completely understand why your action plan is the way it is. I mean, I'm going to be addressing this same issue later this year re: my own cubs, but ya know, I probably won't make an issue out of it. My cubs are young and still are thrilled to have their parents on field trips with them. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
(As I recall, I loved my parents with me on field trips as well. Right on through High School. Maybe it's just me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img])
Either way, [i]pick your battles, they say[/i]. *Personally Speaking*, and only with regard to my own family and our highly individual, unique situation:
I know [b]what is negotiable (for my family)[/b] and [b]what is not[/b] (for my family).
Speaking of *Personal Situations*, and remembering people have asked I respond as a mother (for once [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]) and not as a nurse:
When I go on field trips I remember that no matter how much I would like to be a mother, and singularly a mother on those trips, I am a mother and a nurse. Not sure where that puts me with regard to professional obligation and liability, but probably where *good critical* thinking skills and a solid practice comes into play. Moral/Ethical has never been an issue. That's the easy part. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 6:19am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Alternative to Mainstream:
[b]
But, in follow-up, I would also be calling the school and just seeing if I could have a dialogue. Just say, hey, this happened to me when I was a chaperone on a field trip Thursday and here's why I'm concerned (and again, as a PA parent, not with mention of the child's dysfunctional family and alcoholic Mother). Are you, the principal, able to find out why this child does not have an Epi-pen? Are you, the principal, concerned that this child does not have an Epi-pen?
[/b]
How about the school nurse? I mean, are we talking "health and safety"? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Not offering advice in any manner or form. Just asking questions.

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 6:23am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Alternative to Mainstream:
[b]
Again, to reiterate, I would try to open a dialogue with the school to see if they could speak with the other PA parents. I would have done exactly the same thing that was done on Thursday with the child, not in my care, but certainly on the same field trip as my group of children from his classroom.
[/b]
completely understand what you are talking about, just wanting to state that most likely, the conversation (out of necessity re: Privacy Laws) would probably be brief and one-sided. Aside from the possibility of discussion in general about LTFA. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
But yes, I'm all for Continuing Education and Community Awareness. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 6:29am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Momma Bear, yes, sorry, if that is the protocol with dealing with a health issue in the U.S., then the school nurse rather than the principal, yes. Or, if one wants to take it further because of the alcoholic Mother and dysfunctional family, if the school nurse is the person to contact rather than the principal, yes, that's what/who I mean.
We do not have school nurses here in Ontario, Canada.
I do know that the principal, should they have any concerns about a child (neglect, abuse, whatever falls under the auspices of the Children's Aid mandate) is able to place *that* call.
So, yes, if in America, it's the school nurse to be dealing with instead of the principal and if also he/she does have the *right* to place *that* call should there be any concerns after a conversation, well, yes.
Stupidity calls to an overworked social service agency IMHO. But my birth-sister was told repeatedly by her sister that the school was going to call Children's Aid on her one day because her daughter was consistently late for school by five minutes.
She wasn't late for school because Mommy was up partying the night before and couldn't get out of bed, it just so happened that that was how they, as a Mother and daughter were, together, in the morning. Chronically late.
I have told my children when they are dragging their butts into the school in the morning that it is not okay because the school doesn't think that it's the kids dragging their butts (although perhaps some school personnel would understand that some kids are natural born sleepy heads), but there is something *wrong* with Mommy that she's not getting you to school on time. Have not gone on to tell them that Children's Aid *could* be called for such an infraction.
Of course, not even relevant to a discussion about life threatening allergies.
Speaking of discussion, I had a wonderful telephone conversation to-day that really brightened my day (and no, it was not the family friend who calls me honey, hon and sweetheart!).
Now to ward off that migraine!
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 6:36am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Alternative to Mainstream:
[b]
I don't know. I'm asking an honest question. Do they have that right?
[/b]
Cindy, I just keep responding to your posts since I've already addressed whatever I wanted to address by previous posters and, well, we seem to be the only two posting right now. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Anywhoooooooooooooooooo.
[b]My needs, wants, [i]rights[/i] END where my childrens' [i]Best Interests[/i] begin.[/b]
When my children were born, I [i]joyfully[/i] passed on the throne and became a [i]nobody[/i]. It suits me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 6:41am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Momma Bear, we've probably reached the point in this thread where we're going to be told to sod off and take it up somewhere else. However, I'll wait 'til I'm actually told.
There was a child in Jesse's class this year that had some behavioural issues and he was constantly sitting outside of the principal's office. I spoke with the little guy one day when I had arrived at the school early to pick up my kids. It was a very interesting conversation to say the least. I just really felt that if someone actually sat down and talked to this child, perhaps they could figure out why he was behaving the way he was.
I had so much wanted to go into the vice principal, who I do think I have a good relationship with, and say, Mrs. R., have you approached N's parents about having him see the school counsellor? I thought that perhaps they didn't know (and it's quite possible for one not to know) that there was a school counsellor that their son could see to talk to about his difficulties.
I even thought about speaking with N.'s parents myself (I knew the Father to see) and asking them if they knew about the school counsellor.
But I stepped back and realized that no, even though I knew about the school counsellor, it wasn't my place to suggest to the vice principal that she ask another set of parents if they wanted their child in counselling. Not my place. Again though, not a life threatening situation, just a really sad one.
He ended up being transferred to another school which is what my children's current school does with children they consider "difficult" (or whatever label it is they are given). [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]
But it did cross my mind to speak with the vice principal and say, hey, I spoke with N. to-day and I think he needs someone to talk to (and jeez, I won't post the gory details of his life), maybe you could mention the school counsellor to his parents?
Again, I would love to be going on my daughter's field trip now just to see if the other PA child (the PA child in her class) does have an Epi-pen with him or a parent designated supervisor.
As far as my son and field trips. He's 8-1/2. I believe it was Deb O. that posted in another thread about how she assesses a situation (it could have been other members as well). "Low risk", "high risk" etc.
So, last week, even though I could tell my PA son really wanted me to go on the trip, I really didn't want to go because I'm allergic to mosquito bites and I hate the place they were going to when it's mosquito season (I hate it period but do go the rest of the year), I did the assessment "thing" and came to the conclusion that it was "low risk" and he could go without me, with the necessary precautions.
I do think that this is something that *can* change as your PA child ages. I know it's something that's almost taken me by surprise, that I would be okaying field trips without either Jesse's Father or myself there, but yes, I am. Perhaps because of the experience when he was first in school, in JK and SK when I was not able to go and when he was a lot more vulnerable (although in really good hands with an excellent teacher).
That migraine that needs tending to. My apologies.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 8:56pm
anonymous's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/28/2009 - 16:42

I tend to view an incident like this as more of the norm, than an exception, as least in what I've experienced. Kids with PA, no epipens at school, little precautions, etc. Usually the schools will follow what the parents want regarding the PA child. The problem is, is that parents want "no special accomodations" for their children. Our principal has heard this from several parents when he tried to implement more stringent management of PA (like as in Ryan's 504).
Parent directives are either few or non-existent in many cases.

Posted on: Mon, 06/07/2004 - 11:52pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

ryan's mom, I'm assuming that this *may* have made things more difficult when trying to get your son's 504 Plan implemented? Or did it?
I know it's been my experience where I walk into an Ontario school with a written school plan (which is becoming more common here, but is still rare) and present it, if there is another PA child in the school whose parents have chosen NOT to have different precautions in place, I am viewed like Psycho Mom from He**.
It's okay because I still get a "peanut free" classroom for my son, but it does make me feel different.
I have sat back and scratched my head in bewilderment about what other PA parents do in *real* life that I have seen - the PA parents in my daughter's class that provided a list of "safe" snacks which was definitely not okay for me or our family. I did ask the principal where he got the list because I was quite taken aback by it and I was quite surprised when he said it was given to him by the PA parents of the child in my daughter's class.
I stand beside one of that little guy's two parents every night after school but I have never said anything to them about the list. I've never asked them why their son doesn't wear an Epi-belt. I figure they're doing what they want done for their son and who am I to say anything about it?
Do I think their guy should be wearing an Epi-belt? Yes.
That's why I said it would be interesting to go on my daughter's field trip next week to see if there are any precautions put into place for him when they make a trip to the zoo. Is there an emergency medical bag? Will one of the parents be attending?
And even if I went and saw that one of his parents wasn't attending, I can't really comment on that because I'm not always able to attend when my PA son goes on field trips now. He's also at an age (8-1/2) where I do assess the risk of the situation and whether or not I consider it something that I *should* attend.
Having said that, he is going to the zoo at the end of this month and because of child care issues, I'm not clear that I'm going to be able to go with him on that. I consider it "high risk".
There are a LOT of people, perhaps simply not members of PA.com, that do not want their child to be made feel different in any way because of their allergy. That's why, I think, some people choose anonymity. I've seen that done, as posted in this thread, but I never questioned the parents about why they would choose for their son's allergy (life threatening) to be anonymous at school.
In the one link that Momma Bear provided above, there was discussion about standardized protocol for dealing with food allergies in the schools. The question would still remain for me, should there ever be standardized protocol, would it follow the strictest "comfort zone" that was presented or not?
Again, the TNA child in my son's class year. Anaphylactic. But he didn't wear an Epi-belt either. And I blew his anonymity with the school administration by mistake.
Yes, *most* of us think that this is a *good* thing and certainly it was excellent that the chaperone was informed of the child's allergy and that an Epi-pen count was done should the child require one, but I just wasn't clear that this was a case of neglect.
The family may very well be in denial. Does anyone here remember being in denial? I actually wasn't but my DH was.
As I said, I think the original poster did do all the right things on the field trip and I certainly would have tried yesterday to engage the school (whether it be the principal or the school nurse) in some type of dialogue about future precautions, but other than that, really, what can you do?
I probably still have Jesse's fanny pack from before he wore his Epi-belt. But I can't take my extra Epi-pen, put it in the fanny pack and go strap it on the child in Ember's class that doesn't have an Epi-belt on.
It's just really a difficult situation to assess and to follow-up on.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Tue, 06/08/2004 - 9:49pm
anonymous's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/28/2009 - 16:42

Quite the contrary. These things didn't make it more difficult. I was asked, however, for some type of "proof" because there are other kids in school with PA, no or little precautions with no "known" reactions at school. (I say "known" because I'm still scratching my head over the asthma attack one PA child suffered after lunch and that child's comfort zone is extremely loose, IMO.) The RAST proved to be a very handy document at that point.
The principal and I have mutual respect and trust. He (and the vice-principals) are truly gems to work with.

Posted on: Tue, 06/08/2004 - 10:23pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

ryan's mom, thank-you. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I had gotten the sense from what you have posted about your school experience, that things hadn't been more difficult for you because of say more lax comfort zones on the part of other PA parents, but you know me, it was a question I *had* to ask.
I've found, in my experience, it has been more difficult for me when I present the school with a written school plan for my son and other PA parents don't. But that's just been my experience.
I have found it easier when my child is the only PA child in the school. But again, that's just my experience.
No, I had the sense you had had a different experience, but I needed to ask. Thank-you for answering. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/14/2004 - 2:27am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Was wondering, a week later, if there was any follow-up re this one?
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Mon, 06/14/2004 - 6:40am
California Mom's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/14/2000 - 09:00

I'm late in this because I just saw it today for the first time.
samirosenjacken,I have an unpopular opinion: I think that you overstepped your boundaries in the way you handled this other child. I actually think Cindy made excellent points about the situation.
In my experience we are not even allowed to know any medical information about a child unless the parent has told us. I think it was good that you made sure there was an extra epipen available for this boy should he need it. But, I do think there is a comfort zone issue going on.
I do think that it would be good for you to call the school nurse and express your feelings as a concerned parent. If you are able to speak to the boy's parents in a compassionate way, that could be good, too.
I, too, am wondering how old these children are.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]Miriam

More Community Posts

Peanut Free and Nut Free Community

create a new community post
Displaying 1 - 20 of 20
Latest Post by blprestangen Mon, 09/16/2019 - 1:06pm
Comments: 12
Latest Post by mom2two Mon, 09/16/2019 - 1:03pm
Comments: 18
Latest Post by Kathryn Mon, 09/16/2019 - 1:02pm
Comments: 7
Latest Post by TheDaddy Mon, 09/16/2019 - 1:01pm
Comments: 9
Latest Post by desmond Mon, 09/16/2019 - 1:00pm
Comments: 1
Latest Post by desmond Mon, 09/16/2019 - 12:58pm
Comments: 19
Latest Post by desmond Mon, 09/16/2019 - 12:55pm
Comments: 1
Latest Post by TeddyCan Mon, 09/09/2019 - 4:32pm
Comments: 10
Latest Post by DTurner Mon, 09/09/2019 - 4:31pm
Comments: 5
Latest Post by B.M.18 Mon, 09/09/2019 - 4:30pm
Comments: 3
Latest Post by abolitionist146 Mon, 09/09/2019 - 4:28pm
Comments: 2
Latest Post by nutfreenyc Mon, 09/09/2019 - 4:19pm
Comments: 4
Latest Post by AllergicTeen2 Mon, 09/09/2019 - 4:18pm
Comments: 2
Latest Post by PeanutAllergy.com Fri, 09/06/2019 - 1:52pm
Comments: 1
Latest Post by mom1995 Fri, 09/06/2019 - 1:52pm
Comments: 2
Latest Post by mom1995 Fri, 09/06/2019 - 1:52pm
Comments: 35
Latest Post by PeanutAllergy.com Fri, 09/06/2019 - 1:52pm
Comments: 2
Latest Post by abolitionist146 Fri, 09/06/2019 - 1:52pm
Comments: 2

More Articles

Do you think you may have a food intolerance? Many people make it to adulthood without realizing they have a food intolerance because they have...

With only a casual understanding of Oral Immunotherapy (OIT) some people assume that simply feeding children a bit of their problem food, in order...

Babies usually show the same peanut allergy symptoms as older children as adults. It is estimated that up...

If you have a mold allergy, you’ve likely been advised to remove all sources of mold from in and around your house. But it doesn’t stop there....

You may be surprised to find that peanut butter is used to make many products. Someone who has a peanut...

More Articles

More Articles

What if, while attending a summertime family picnic, a food-allergic child shows signs of anaphylaxis. In a panicked instant, adults realize the...

Are the signs of nut allergies different than those of peanut allergies? Many people who have an allergic reaction after eating a peanut butter...

There is much buzz in the news about the potential health benefits of fecal transplants, and some of that benefit may extend to people with food...

If you or your child has a food allergy, a doctor or allergist might have talked to you about “co-factors.” Allergy co-factors are substances,...

An epinephrine auto-injector provides an emergency dose of epinephrine (adrenaline) to treat life-threatening allergic reactions. Those who have...

Oyster sauce is used for a variety of recipes, including as an earthy dressing for noodles, vegetables, and stir-fries, or as a base for other...

The high incidence of food allergy in children, and the reason many kids eventually...

Parents of children with food allergies often share tips about safe foods, allergy-friendly restaurants, and other experiences and challenges of...

Because food allergies are so common among children today, a great idea for sharing information with other classmates is to incorporate the topic...

When a child is diagnosed with peanut allergy, the implications ripple past the parents to rattle the rest of us - older siblings, grandparents,...

Your best defense against anaphylactic shock is to know what you’re up against. Anaphylaxis is a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction....

Inhalers Sometimes Contain Soy

Many people use inhalers to take the drug albuterol to help their asthma or allergies, and those with COPD...

Some people with shellfish allergy have concerns about consuming sea salt that might be contaminated with traces of shellfish. Though there are...

Nearly 25 percent of children with a peanut allergy will outgrow it. However, there is a small risk...