Very Frustrated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Okay, some of you know my problem that started in the Fall when my school went nut free and the community basically went nuts themselves. It was all over the news and there were many upset people about the ban. We establised nut free in the whole building. Well last week I found out several things. While my mother was out sick (she teaches 4th grade in the same school) they had their Valentines party, and the sub let the kids EAT PEANUTBUTTER CUPS IN THE CLASSROOM. Then I found out there is a small child who eats Peanutbutter sandwiches every day in the school office, supervised by the nurse and cleaned up by the nurse. (what if my child needs the nurse's help while she is cleaning up peanutbutter?) Then I find out that the third lunch group (my son's is the second) is allowed to eat peanutbutter in the cafateria!!!!!!!!!!! When did nut free, become not nut free? I went to the Superintendent's office to meet with the person who I usually talk to and is my BEAR in these matters because he gets it, he was not there and I met with the Superintendent. She was aware of the child eating in the office every day and they are doing that to be accomidating to that child. I told her how upset I was about that and this was before I found out about the third lunch group eating nuts in the cafateria. Needless to say I am mad. He is not 504, they do not think this qualifies as 504. But I am calling my lawyer Monday. I found this out Friday. Any suggestions?

On Feb 19, 2005

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001754.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001754.html[/url]

themom, sorry you are having problems again. As long as you are seeing a lawyer I would fight for a 504. The link above has good 504 links and at least one of them shows how food allergies qualify.

I think you def. need to get this designation and get the plan in writing so you have some recourse.

If you need anything else, let me know, I may have more info and research you can use.

On Feb 19, 2005

I can't think of any reason why your child would not qualify. Just tonight I was told of a school in Waterville that is now PN free because of the request by the parents of a PNA child. I was told that all schools must comply if you ask for it. I completely symphathize with yor frustration.

This is a good article to start with, the following quote is from this link. [url="http://www.allergysupport.org/index.php?contents=rhondadocs/Primer.htm"]http://www.allergysupport.org/index.php?contents=rhondadocs/Primer.htm[/url]

"HOW IS A CHILD WITH FOOD ALLERGY ELIGIBLE?

Children protected under Section 504 are commonly those with ADD, ADHD, OCD, Diabetes, AIDS, Asthma (that does not affect educational performance) and allergy just name a few. The criteria by which a child with severe food allergy is eligible for protection under Section 504 is that the physiological condition / disorder of food allergy affects the respiratory, digestive, cardiovascular and skin body systems. The physical impairment of food allergy could substantially limit breathing during an anaphylactic reaction. In addition, the U.S. Office for Civil Rights U.S., Department of Education formally recognizes

On Feb 20, 2005

OMG "J", I went to the school the other day and while speaking to Susan she told me about the child eating pb, but she said it was in [b]her office[/b] everyday and because of a medical thing.

She didnt really get into any details, but she said something about him not being able to afford to lose any weight and pb was one of those high calorie things that he likes and it keeps his weight on track. I just assumed you knew about it or I would have called you immediately.

I also got a notice about the Valentines party and I believe I posted here that I didnt see a reminder that it is a pn/tn free school, should I talk to the principal about it or should I let you handle it.. I should have called you with my concern. Darn! I will from now on.

I knew nothing about the 3rd lunch being able to eat pb, That is just wrong!

"J" Definately fight for a 504. Know that I will help you with whatever I can. I will back you up every step of the way!

Let me know!

Lisa

On Feb 20, 2005

themom,

I think you have very good reason to be upset. The party with pb cups and the third lunch group eating pb is something that would have me very upset also. As for the little one eating pb in the office, I think since they are doing all they can to contain the situation I wouldn't have a problem - as long as that office is not the nurse's office. If your child will not have any reason to be in that same room or deal with the person in charge of monitoring the child I wouldn't be upset (for my own child). What I find disturbing is that the nurse is cleaning up after this child. Ask for someone else to do it.

I'm curious to know how your school rectifies this situation.

Your child does qualify under 504, I know this because we just settled a case with our own district for our child. Do not let them push you around, fight for what you want - even if it means making "unpopular" choices. Your child deserves the safest possible environment. Does the school district feel that is what is being delivered? Not many parents would want their children's school to pay Russian Roulet with their kids' safety and you shouldn't have to settle for that either.

For the sake of your little one and your own peace of mind, I hope this gets handled quickly and in the best way to meet your child's needs.

Best wishes!

On Feb 20, 2005

Lisa, thanks, I think I need to stay better incontact with you and do more suprise visits to the school myself. My mom, the 4th grade teacher, wrote a formal letter to Susan about the peanutbutter cups in her room, how she explained to the kids that was a no-no, and that we need to send an update home etc. I have, in writing, the Health Plan, that Miller is a nut free school etc. My lawyer has a copy too. So that should not be a problem to get him to scare the school a little, I am just mad they made me take it all to this level. LIke I have time or energy, but you do what you have to do.

The 504 thing, it is on record that my mother and I were not happy about the 504 being removed. They said he cannot have a 504 and an IEP at the same time, not sure why. Last I talked to someone higher up he said he was looking into that again and maybe we could get the Health Plan into his IEP that would carry some more weight.

I know I cannot homeschool him, I tried. He has learning disabilities that would actually get worse if he was homeschooled, not to mention I am not trained in that area at all. I know he is learning at school. I want him to be as "normal" as possible. But if he knew there was that much PB in the school he would go back into the emotional problems (ie. fear) we had last year when there was no ban at all.

This just bites because I want to have a good relationship with the school, but they are forcing me to be a nasty person. I am not that way, but have been pushed far enough.

On Feb 20, 2005

There is no reason you should have to home school him, he is entitled to the same education everybody else is!!!

I dont really know a whole lot about 504's and IEP's, but I thought I read posts from people here that have both in place, I dont see why you cant too.

From now on when I have a concern, I am just going to call you. Like I said before, I was surprised when I got a notice home that there would be a valentines party with food involved and there was no reminder about the pn/tn ban. I just hope that I dont become a pain in the butt! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Let me know if there is something I can do to help, we all know I have a big mouth and I am not afraid to use it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Keep in touch.

Lisa

[This message has been edited by turlisa (edited February 20, 2005).]

On Feb 20, 2005

themom,

Glad you have support from a lawyer on this. I've read lots about 504, but don't have the same depth of knowledge re:IEP. But, please check out this thread and pay particular attention to the posts from Rhonda RS.

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001477.html[/url]

My understanding is that some of the potential alternatives would be a 504 + an IEP, or just an IEP with OHI designation (as discussed in the link above).

You may also find some other information directly on Rhonda's website at [url="http://www.allergysupport.org"]www.allergysupport.org[/url] . Unfortunately, she rarely posts here anymore, but she has some excellent historical posts in the School thread re:504, IEP's, etc. - so you can conduct a search to see what else she has written.

Stay strong and keep fighting...

On Feb 20, 2005

the mom, I'm sorry I can't be of any more help then to offer my support. I'm Canadian and don't understand the process of 504 Plans at all. I do know that your child is eligible for one though, I just don't know how to begin the process.

Also, an interesting question that I raised with another member here last night. Is the school calling itself nut free?

If it is calling itself nut free and yet the third lunch period is actually eating nut products, perhaps a gentle reminder to them that if they are calling themselves something they are truly not (we know that mistakes do happen, but not a whole third period lunch), they are legally liable.

If a school is going to call itself anything, "peanut safe", "peanut free", "reduce the risk", etc., it is really important for the school especially (and I would think the school board district and it's lawyers) for that school to have written guidelines as to what they mean by their terminology.

I have had that same fight here with my PA son's school - calling itself "reduce the risk" but without any written guidelines to support that they were even trying to do that.

And this is separate from the "false sense of security" stuff that we all hear.

For example, if a bar in Toronto is not "smoke free", it can be fined. There are guidelines (or by-laws in this case I guess) written up for each bar to go by. Now, if an individual gets caught smoking in that bar, well, the individual pays the fine. But if the bar itself knowingly lets someone (or a lot of people) smoke, totally different story.

You cannot call yourself something that you are not.

My son currently has a "peanut free" classroom and a "peanut free" BENCH in the lunch room.

I think your child needs a 504 Plan quite obviously, but I also think the school needs a gentle reminder that if they're going to call themselves something, especially with what I understand was much difficulty, they better have some guidelines in place to back them up.

Mistakes are going to happen, as we all know (the eating of the pb cups during the party - sad, but true [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] ), but there are bigger issues at hand here.

I am also wondering why one child is eating pb in the office every lunch. Surely it must be a medical reason? I mean, a parent wouldn't want their child isolated to eat their gosh darn pb unless it was medical, would they? I know I haven't liked it when I've found my PA son this year out in the hall eating, separate from the other children.

Big hugs. Please let us know how it goes. And know that you have a lot of support here. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Feb 21, 2005

themom. Hi here is a link not sure if it will help, just a thought [url="http://www.help4adhd.org/en/education/rights/idea"]http://www.help4adhd.org/en/education/rights/idea[/url]

I am trying to follow your story.

Do you have in writing why the school said your child does not have a 504,or why they took it back? I have a ton of ?'s Iam not sure if I should ask them on the board or not. I have a e-mail in my profile I would like to talk with you if you have the time?

I know that Mommabear has a IEP, with OHI and other things.You might want to talk with her.

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Feb 21, 2005

Thanks for all the support out there!!

I do have in writing, in the form of a Health Plan that the School is NUT FREE. "We are a nut and seed free school" is posted on every monthly meal plan sent home to every student. I have in writing what they would do if they discovered a nut product, including a call or note to that home as a reminder that we are nut free. They are just not following through.

I have read the threads about 504 and allergies. I do think he qualifies. I have been told the Health plan has as much "punch" if not followed as the IEP or the 504, but I dont think they could lose anything major if I made a stink because they are not following their own plan. Last year he was 504 and they did not follow the plan and realized I could sue and they could lose their federal funding and so they were more careful then with this Health Plan.

I always understood there would be slips by the kids and parents, I am just upset the school staff is actually saying "go ahead and eat". They are not following their own plan set inplace for those kinds of slips.

As for the student in the office, apparently that student is not gaining weight and PB helps the kid stay a healthy weight because he/she is so picky. My problem is that the nurse cleans up after the kid.

I am now going to try and call the lawyer. I have been giving him all the papers that the school has given me since Sept. The school just does not know that I have been doing that so I guess they get a wake up call.

On Feb 21, 2005

Boolean wise, if I look into my mind and view the picture I find there, would a big bubble labelled: FAPE/obligation, and another bubble inside that bubble labelled: "Appropriate and/or Special Education", and *that* bubble encompassing two smaller bubbles, one labelled OHI under IDEA, and another labelled 504, be an adequate representation? I honestly don't know.

On Feb 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]Boolean wise, if I look into my mind and view the picture I find there, would a big bubble labelled: FAPE/obligation, and another bubble inside that bubble labelled: "Appropriate and/or Special Education", and *that* bubble encompassing two smaller bubbles, one labelled OHI under IDEA, and another labelled 504, be an adequate representation? I honestly don't know.[/b]

wait wait wait. let me restate my question:

[i]"Boolean wise, if I look into my mind and view the picture I find there, would a big bubble labelled: FAPE/obligation, and another bubble inside that bubble labelled: "Appropriate and/or Special Education", and *that* bubble encompassing two smaller bubbles, one labelled "Federally Funded accommodations" and another labelled "Non-Federally Funded accommodations" and in the "Federally Funded accommodations" another bubble labelled "OHI under IDEA", and in the "Non-Federally Funded accommodations" another labelled "504", be an adequate representation? I honestly don't know."[/i]

????

On Feb 21, 2005

themom,

please pardon my inquisitiveness, but in the IEP is there a designation of OHI for LTFA's?

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Just asking a question. I get lost on these things.

On Feb 21, 2005

My understanding was that once a child has been designated as 504, they cannot be undesignated unless for some reason the medical problem resolved (for example if your child outgrew pa, no longer needed epi, etc). So I don`t see how they can suddenly decide he does not qualify for a 504 when previously he did, and the pa is still there. Chris at FAAN is very good with these types of questions. You might want to call him, or maybe your lawyer is very up on this.

On Feb 21, 2005

Hmmmm. Interesting.

[url="http://www.tsa-usa.org/educ_advoc/section%20504.htm"]http://www.tsa-usa.org/educ_advoc/section%20504.htm[/url]

anyone?

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, content, or currentness of the link in this post.

On Feb 21, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by themom: [b] I have been told the Health plan has as much "punch" if not followed as the IEP or the 504, but I dont think they could lose anything major if I made a stink because they are not following their own plan. Last year he was 504 and they did not follow the plan and realized I could sue and they could lose their federal funding and so they were more careful then with this Health Plan. /B]

Themom,

Make sure you discuss with your lawyer [b]exactly[/b] what transpired between last year and this year. You are a member of the 504 team. His 504 from last year should not have been dismantled unless your Team had evidence that it was warranted and you explicitly agreed to that decision.

A Health Plan doesn't have as much "punch" as a 504 or IDEA plan, as far as I know. Make sure you convey to your lawyer who told you that.

[This message has been edited by Nutternomore (edited February 21, 2005).]

On Feb 21, 2005

the mom, I'm sorry, but this part is really bothering me. You posted:-

I do have in writing, in the form of a Health Plan that the School is NUT FREE. "We are a nut and seed free school" is posted on every monthly meal plan sent home to every student. I have in writing what they would do if they discovered a nut product, including a call or note to that home as a reminder that we are nut free. They are just not following through.

I would think that your lawyer would find the above, in and of itself, quite interesting. Again, a school cannot call itself something that it is not, without opening themselves up wide to liability. That is why my son's school will not say that it is "peanut free" but "striving to reduce the risk". Wishy washy as far as I'm concerned, but what you have in writing, is VERY important, separate from a 504 Plan, I would think.

Are you able to find out why it is the nurse that has to clean up after the picky eater child that needs to eat pb so that she/he can maintain/gain weight?

Are the parents of that child okay with the situation their child has been placed in - isolated because they can/will only eat pb? Do you think they would be receptive to trying something else like soy or sun butter where their child might get the same amount of protein/calories.

I mean, c'mon now.

I have a picky eater kid. He just happens to be PA.

I understand accommodating another child's health concerns, as we have discussed here certainly with regard to diabetes, and even yes, weight maintenance, but this almost sounds like the vegetarian argument that just popped up this year (or seemed to) about how banning peanuts is somehow depriving vegetarian children of their rights.

If I were the parent of the picky eater child in a peanut free school, I would think that rather than have my child further stimatized, I would have them choose something else to eat.

I tell you, it is all mind boggling. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img]

You have what you need in writing already to confront the school to ask them what the heck is going on. If you cared to present them simply with the written materials you posted about, you can then ask them for their written guidelines on what they consider their peanut/nut free (and I understand other things) school to be. And explain why. With the caveat that yes, certainly, you understand that there will be mistakes, you and your child have no false sense of security stuff going on, but a whole period eating peanut products? C'mon!

I would be livid especially after the anguish you went through at the beginning of this school year. Absolutely bloody livid. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/mad.gif[/img]

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Feb 21, 2005

Perhaps the child who eats PB in the nurse's office is a special needs child? Maybe he has sensory integration disorder?

My DS (5) has SID. He gags and vomits on many foods. Feeding him is a nightmare. He lost 4.5 pounds between 4 and 5 years of age because of his food issues.

Kids who have food issues from SID are beyond normal picky eaters. I don't bother to explain SID to most people; I just tell them my DS is picky.

DS lived on PB. He ate it 2-3 times a day. There were many days when PB was all he could eat. It's very difficult for him to not have PB in the house because of his younger sister.

I have never tried soy butter, since I avoid soy like the plague (since DD is SA and soy is contraindicated for hypothyroidism), so I can't comment on how similar it is to PB or if a child with SID would eat it.

On Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by TRexFamily: [b]Perhaps the child who eats PB in the nurse's office is a special needs child? Maybe he has sensory integration disorder?

My DS (5) has SID. He gags and vomits on many foods. Feeding him is a nightmare. He lost 4.5 pounds between 4 and 5 years of age because of his food issues.

Kids who have food issues from SID are beyond normal picky eaters. I don't bother to explain SID to most people; I just tell them my DS is picky.

[/b]

[b]I understand[/b]. [i]I do I do I do.[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

just wanting to add a tangent: perserverative adherance to and the need for [b]routine[/b]. When present, it can be a mitigating circumstance.

I've said before, my cubs have needs that compete with their food allergies. [i]Neck and Neck[/i], even. Sometimes, I find things on this board that make me rejoice, sometimes,......grieve.

In this case, [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] . Hope, even.

On Feb 22, 2005

TRexFamily, thank-you for explaining SID to me. As I did post, I understand accommodating children with all sorts of different medical needs - such as diabetes and as this has been presented, a child who has difficulty with weight maintenance. Without evening knowing that such things as SID existed, but also feeling sorry for the child that they had to sit alone (isolated) because they were bringing pb into a peanut free school (or one that is proclaiming to be).

So, okay, I understand where SID would be another matter totally separate again and where, of course, special accommodations would be made for the child with SID.

I think the mom's concern, however, is valid, in that the nurse is doing the cleaning up of the child after he/she eats. So then, how is the nurse cleaning herself, after cleaning the child, so that she can go back to her role as school nurse to protect a PA child should they need to see her?

I appreciate your explanation. There is a big difference obviously between a child that has SID and a child that is a picky eater. What was presented in this thread, and what I was responding to, was a picky eater and a weight maintenance "issue".

Curious - did you say that your one child is also soy allergic? So that you can't try the soy butter with the child with SID? Or, it is the child with SID that is soy allergic? And sun butter?

Simply curious because quite frankly, I haven't tried either for our family (dealing with PA only as far as food allergies). Just didn't like the look of them. End of story. Don't know if they compare in texture/protein/calories. Just thought it might be an idea for a child not to be isolated if it was a picky eater issue (and not something which sounds a heckuva lot more serious like SID).

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook: [b]I think the mom's concern, however, is valid, in that the nurse is doing the cleaning up of the child after he/she eats. So then, how is the nurse cleaning herself, after cleaning the child, so that she can go back to her role as school nurse to protect a PA child should they need to see her?

[/b]

Don't know what is being done in *that* situation, but in many institutions, one RN may be required to care for many persons, and in some of those situations, various isolation/reverse isolation procedures are maitained to prevent [i]cross-contamination[/i], infection and transfer of hazardous substances. I mean, [i]there's a lot of hazardous substances out there[/i]. It is of extreme importance that such substances not be allowed transfer to various surfaces and objects, [i]or other individuals[/i]. In the case of unavoidable transfer to objects and surfaces, approved methods of decontamination.

I've been to numerous *mandatory* inservices related to what is an essential part of and integral to my nursing education.

edited to add:

don't know about *that* situation, but *my* particular role as an RN, includes [i]cleaning up a whole variety of substances[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] Some quite dangerous if not handled appropriately.

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited February 22, 2005).]

On Feb 22, 2005

My PA child has learning disabilities, speech thearpy, and reading recovery and that is why he has an IEP. My younger son has SID as well and I am fully aware of the whole texture thing and eating with some kids. Meal times are somewhat stressful here. My PA son is also allergic to all legumes including soy (it was soy formula that sent us to the ER when he was an infant and the first clue of his allergies). My younger son also has developmental delays of over a year and has speech help as well.

All that to say I understand once you find a picky eater something he/she likes you dont want to not be able to give that to them. But my problem is the nurse cleaning up after the pb.

The Superintendent told me she would get back to me by today. I am wainting for their response before I call my lawyer.

AS for the 504 thing. My mother and I (she is a teacher in the same school and at every meeting with me) were told he does not qualify for the 504 and so that ended. We told them we did not want it to end, and we are on record with our opinion of that.

I really want this resolved today because I go in for surgery tomorrow and really wont want to deal with people for a few days.

Thanks for all the insight and help out there. I have gone to many of the sights referred to. Jen

On Feb 22, 2005

Jen, I have no advice for you. Just wanted to send hugs}}}. I hope all can be resolved quickly and to your child's safety.

Hope your surgery goes well also.

On Feb 22, 2005

the mom, I thought I had understood your concern about the nurse, and I believe I have. Momma Bear, let's hope that the school nurse adheres to the same practices that she would if she was working say in a hospital environment and is able to decontaminate herself in some way so that she can effectively deal with the PA child should she be required to (so much more serious than that gosh darn jar of peanuts in the school's office last year - we don't have school nurses and it would be the secretary who had been eating the peanuts who would be dealing with my son).

the mom, I hope your surgery goes well and things get sorted.

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook: [b] Momma Bear, let's hope that the school nurse adheres to the same practices that she would if she was working say in a hospital environment and is able to decontaminate herself in some way so that she can effectively deal with the PA child should she be required to (so much more serious than that gosh darn jar of peanuts in the school's office last year - we don't have school nurses and it would be the secretary who had been eating the peanuts who would be dealing with my son).

[/b]

I understand. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] just want to be clear that *personally* speaking, I strive to avoid [i]contamination[/i] to begin with. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

<<>>

[i]it can take me weeks, months........to shake the feeling.[/i]

I mean, I'm provided with appropriate education and instruction in approved methods and techniques as well as with personal protective equipment, barrier devices, supplies and facilities. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

sorta off topic, but I've also come across policy, procedure, protocol, and SOP in place that applies to exposure. Lots.

sorta off topic again, but.....think about it, if there is potential to transfer a protein, then what else potentially can be transferred?

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Just being inquisitive.

On Feb 22, 2005

Momma Bear, am very glad I'm not eating lunch right now. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Feb 22, 2005

[quote]Originally posted by themom: "My younger son has SID as well and I am fully aware of the whole texture thing and eating with some kids. Meal times are somewhat stressful here. My PA son is also allergic to all legumes including soy (it was soy formula that sent us to the ER when he was an infant and the first clue of his allergies). My younger son also has developmental delays of over a year and has speech help as well."

Your younger son sounds similar to my younger son.

"All that to say I understand once you find a picky eater something he/she likes you dont want to not be able to give that to them. But my problem is the nurse cleaning up after the pb."

I understand your concerns and hope you resolve this situation to everyone's benefit.

"I really want this resolved today because I go in for surgery tomorrow and really wont want to deal with people for a few days."

Good luck with your surgery!

Anne

On Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook:

Curious - did you say that your one child is also soy allergic? So that you can't try the soy butter with the child with SID? Or, it is the child with SID that is soy allergic? And sun butter?

Simply curious because quite frankly, I haven't tried either for our family (dealing with PA only as far as food allergies). Just didn't like the look of them. End of story. Don't know if they compare in texture/protein/calories. Just thought it might be an idea for a child not to be isolated if it was a picky eater issue (and not something which sounds a heckuva lot more serious like SID).

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/B]

Cindy,

My DD (20 months) has multiple food allergies. She is anaphylactic to peanuts and tree nuts (pecans, almonds, walnuts) and allergic to milk, soy and wheat.

I have never tried soy butter, pea butter, sun butter etc. My endocrinologist recommended that I avoid soy products because of hypothyroidism. Also, I think there is some concern that soy *may* be causing early puberty in kids.

We live overseas, and soy butter, pea butter, sun butter etc is not available here. Our choices are peanut butter and Nutella (peanut oil and hazelnut). Obviously, Nutella is not an option for our DS, since we have a peanut/tree nut free house.

The pea/sun/soy butters are popular with other people at PA.com, so they might be good replacements for peanut butter for picky eaters (or possibly for this child who eats pb in the nurse's office). Since I have never seen them, I don't know about the texture, calories, fat, protein etc.

Anne

On Feb 22, 2005

TRexFamily, thank-you again for explaining something to me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I saw either sun or soy butter for the first time a couple of years ago. I posted about it here. I, just for myself, wasn't comfortable with how much it looked like pb. Couldn't wrap my mind around feeding my PA son something that looked SO much like the thing that had the potential to kill him.

Since he's my oldest, although I do recognize that I will have peanut/nut "issues" with my non-PA daughter (and have had a couple already - she is 7), I don't feel the need to introduce a substitute into the house, especially since I've hated pb since I was 4 years old.

I do feel sorry for the child sitting alone eating a pb sandwich in the nurse's office. Only because the shoe can so easily be on the other foot when it comes to our PA children. Or not only because. But because I've seen it happen with our PA children (like my guy eating in the hall this year with the other PA student in his classroom [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/mad.gif[/img] )

But how do you find out, and one really can't, if it is a weight maintenance issue which might or might not be dealt with differently so the child is not isolated, or if it is SID?

When I initially responded, I was responding to how it had been presented - as a weight maintenance issue - not SID. Because if someone had posted that the child ate pb because they had SID, I would have had to ask what that was and why it would be so important to the child to eat pb (all of which has now been explained).

I appreciate this discussion and all of the explanation, thank-you. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Feb 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook: [b] But how do you find out, and one really can't, if it is a weight maintenance issue which might or might not be dealt with differently so the child is not isolated, or if it is SID?

[/b]

I guess at some point, do we have to accept the right to confidentiality, make decisions as permitted by law for their own children, and possibly work "in good faith" with those in authority at such institutions like schools.......I mean, is it my right to know if another child has a plan, such as an IEP or 504? I tend (and hope) to think [i]not[/i]. If so, then, I guess I have to hope those who administer to such plans display informed judgement and navigate within the course of the law and what [b]are[/b] *rights*. ie: "the real world". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

*Personally*? I am not nearly knowledgeable to second guess everybody. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Just describing my own shortcommings.

On Mar 1, 2005

duplicate

[This message has been edited by food4thought (edited March 01, 2005).]

On Mar 1, 2005

It's been almost a year since the posts regarding Newton, Mass. where a child was eating in the nurse's office. Yes, this child was being accomodate for SID, and, yes, the school is prohibited from disclosing this or any details for any reason.

I wouldn't think that the nurse cleaning peanut butter is any more dangerous than the nurse cleaning up bloody noses, administering shots, etc. If anyone knows how to wash their hands properly and decontaminate I'd put my money on the nurse before any other professional in the building.

Regarding food substitutions: kids with SID are sooo sensitive to everything in their environments there's little chance some would try sunbutter let alone a different brand of peanut butter. These kids thrive on routine and can detect any subtle canges in their environment.

The good news in Newton is that the school with the most issues created a cafeteria with a peanut-free section and a peanut-allowed area. Sinks were installed and all children with peanut products have supervised handwashing and inspection of clothes, etc. before they leave the room. It's been safe and quiet for nearly a year.

And, the little boy eating in the nurse's office eats a big lunch every day (not always peanut butter, but sometimes) and finally learned to read, made some friends and gained some weight.

[This message has been edited by food4thought (edited March 01, 2005).]

On Mar 1, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by food4thought: [b] and finally learned to read, made some friends and gained some weight.

[/b]

Although I don't know you, I've often thought about and sent good wishes for your individual situation. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum8/HTML/000731.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum8/HTML/000731.html[/url]

On Mar 1, 2005

Regarding food substitutions: kids with SID are sooo sensitive to everything in their environments there's little chance some would try sunbutter let alone a different brand of peanut butter. These kids thrive on routine and can detect any subtle canges in their environment.

I really do understand this and Thank you Food4thought for the update

------------------ Love this site Synthia

On Mar 2, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by themom: [b] All that to say I understand once you find a picky eater something he/she likes you dont want to not be able to give that to them. But my problem is the nurse cleaning up after the pb. [/b]

I think you're being unreasonable about this part. Any other students with valid medical conditions are entitled to accomodations just as your child is. The school nurse is there to serve the entire student population, not just your child.

Just give the school nurse a gentle reminder to the school nurse to wash her hands afterwards.

On Mar 3, 2005

solarflare, innocently wondering why themom is being unreasonable about the nurse cleaning up after her/himself after dealing with the child eating pb at lunch?

As I believe I posted in this thread, I never did address the GIANT jar of peanuts/nuts in my son's school office (we don't have school nurses), but another member had advised me that the school should be informed and the peanuts removed right away.

All I needed was for my son to require medical attention from the school secretary after her dipping her fingers in the jar of peanuts.

Now, as I said, I never dealt with the school re that, but that's "my" problem and perhaps could have been a very big mistake on my part not to have dealt with it.

Just not clear why you think themom is being unreasonable?

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Mar 3, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook: [b]solarflare, innocently wondering why themom is being unreasonable about the nurse cleaning up after her/himself after dealing with the child eating pb at lunch?

[/b]

does the mom want the child to clean up after themselves?:

Quote:

Originally posted by themom: Then I found out there is a small child who eats Peanutbutter sandwiches every day in the school office, supervised by the nurse and cleaned up by the nurse. (what if my child needs the nurse's help while she is cleaning up peanutbutter?)[/b]

*****************************************

[url="http://www.intra.ccgh.com/AssocHlth/iso-rationale.htm"]http://www.intra.ccgh.com/AssocHlth/iso-rationale.htm[/url]

Interesting?

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, content, or currentness of the link in this post.

On Mar 3, 2005

Momma Bear, okay, thank-you for the clarification.

For me, when I read the mom's concerns, I didn't think she didn't want the school nurse to clean up after the child and have the child clean him/herself, but I thought she was concerned about whether the nurse then cleaned herself after cleaning the child.

But I can now see how it could be read another way.

One great reason I love this board. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

A separate thing, but perhaps worth reading, 6th page, my last post, in How Did PA Affect Your Day To-Day?

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Mar 4, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook: [b]solarflare, innocently wondering why themom is being unreasonable about the nurse cleaning up after her/himself after dealing with the child eating pb at lunch? [/b]

I think it's unreasonable because themom seems to be angry about the nurse cleaning up after the child. Someone has to clean up after the child, and if the nurse is the one supervising the child while he/she is eating, the nurse would also be the one best equipped to get it cleaned up quickly, rather than having to wait for a janitor or other staff member.

A gentle reminder to the nurse to wash up after cleaning up after the child with the PB should be sufficient. No need to raise a fuss and violate the other child's rights to accomodations.

I know how busy the office at a school can be during lunch time. I know how busy the janitorial staff is at lunch time. Maybe the nurse does the clean up because it's quicker that way? I'd certainly rather not have PB residue hanging around on a surface my child may touch for 20 minutes while waiting for the janitor to come clean it up.

On Mar 4, 2005

solarflare, thank-you for answering me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

See, I didn't get the sense that the mom was angry. I just read it as her being concerned about the nurse cleaning herself after cleaning the pb eating child.

But then, Momma Bear did clarify how it could be seen differently than how I had read it.

I appreciate your answer though. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

My Father was a custodian in the schools, so this is NOTHING against janitors, but I'm also assuming that the nurse has to clean the child as well as the eating area and I don't think it's a janitor's job to be cleaning a child - the table the child sat at, yes, but not the child him/herself. Does that make sense?

And I would think that having two different school personnel cleaning up after one child would be rather ridiculous - waste of time, energy and resources.

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Mar 4, 2005

Maybe I'm projecting, I don't know.....

But, to me, what I *read* as the concern is, what if the pa child needs to be taken care of (treated) while the nurse is cleaning up pb.

Now, MommaBear, I know that as a nurse, you deal with a lot of instances where you are in contact with body fluids that may or may not cost you your health/life if you are not careful. As a nurse you take a lot of precautions.

But, for those of us that don't deal with that as a regular part of our day we don't think in those terms. If pb is not supposed to be in the school, but an exception is being made - it seems odd that the nurses office is the place it would be - and it also seems odd that the nurse would be the one to clean it up. Now - quite possibly there is a totally legitimate reason for that choice. (e.g. the child who is eating the pb needs to be with a nurse when eating) But, in that case, under the circumstances, I think they should be explaining things to themom.

On Mar 4, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnaMarie: [b] Now, MommaBear, I know that as a nurse, you deal with a lot of instances where you are in contact with body fluids that may or may not cost you your health/life if you are not careful. [/b]

or someone else's health/life.

On Mar 4, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnaMarie: [b]Now - quite possibly there is a totally legitimate reason for that choice. (e.g. the child who is eating the pb needs to be with a nurse when eating) But, in that case, under the circumstances, I think they should be explaining things to themom.[/b]

even if it involves [b]protected information[/b]?

I'd also like to introduce the idea of *holistic nursing care*, *continuity of care*, [b]*comprehensive nursing care plans*[/b]. As well as the significance of *touch* in nursing care.

There is much that constitutes: *Nursing Care*.

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely pondering and contemplating.

On Mar 5, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] even if it involves [b]protected information[/b]? [/b]

Would it be [b]protected information[/b] to say "we have a child that is eating peanutbutter in the nurses office for health reasons, and here is what is being done to make sure your child is not going to be at any additional risk because of this".

When I had my concern about a field trip my son was going on - I spent days worrying and fretting. And, in the end, I discovered that the teacher had taken it upon herself to make sure things were safe for my child. I completely appreciate everything she did - but if I had known about it earlier it would have saved me from a few sleepless nights.

Maybe that's all that is needed in this case. Maybe if things get explained it can ease a mother's suffering and worrying.

On Mar 5, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnaMarie: [i] Would it be [b]protected information[/b] to say "we have a child that is eating peanutbutter in the nurses office for

[b] health reasons[/b],

and here is what is being done to make sure your child is not going to be at any additional risk because of this".

[/i]

("health reasons" bolded by myself)

Do you think it would be?

([i]whatever[/i] kind of [b]health[/b], I mean.)

AnnaMarie,

hypothetically,

******************************

if patient in a hospital and due to [i]qualifying reasons[/i], is placed on [b]contact isolation[/b] (for instance).......

do *you* (not going to discuss right now if it actually is or isn't) feel it is appropriate for staff taking care of that family member to tell other patients, or family members of other patients *that*:

<<

[b] qualifying reasons[/b],

and here is what is being done to make sure your family member (or yourself) is not going to be at any additional risk because of this.>>>

***********************************

Is this information above and beyond "as needed" or in violation of another's right to privacy?

Or should there just be a general "policy/procedure/protocol" regarding "contact isolation" and the knowledge that it is instituted when necessary?

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Just participating in stimulating discussion. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited March 05, 2005).]

On Mar 5, 2005

Anna Marie, I understood your first post above and agree with it.

Although others have explained how the post could be read differently, which I did appreciate, I only read that the mom was concerned that it was the school nurse doing the cleaning up after the pb eating child and what if her child needed attention from the nurse? Is the nurse cleaning up afterwards?

Also, simply in thinking about it, if the child is eating pb for a medical condition, can the child not have someone assigned to him/her to clean up after he/she eats other than the school nurse? Or, is it the case, that Anna Marie suggested, that the child needs medical attention of some sort to actually clean up?

As far as the child - certainly the pb eating child has *rights* as do all of our children, but I'm sorry, I do believe in a "peanut free" school, it may be necessary to explain to PA parents why a child is eating pb in a "peanut free" school. I am not clear if everything that happens in a school is protected as far as privacy - I do think a school setting is different than a hospital setting.

For example, most of us know the feeling of having our child's picture pasted in their classroom as the PA child. Now, certainly, a newsletter isn't sent out saying "Jesse C. is the PA child in your child's class", but when one steps into his class and sees his picture, it's not too hard to figure out who the PA child is, is it?

Or, if I visit the school and go to see how the "peanut free" BENCH is working, not too hard for me to know who all 8 of the PA children are in the school.

So where is the privacy for the PA children? And actually, I don't want Jesse's PA to be kept secret/private. Don't necessarily want it broadcast (although we have done that in the past with newspaper articles).

Now, certainly, the whole school does not have to know why there is a pb eating child in the school when the school is "peanut free", especially in this particular school when there was such an uproar to begin with. However, I do believe the PA parent has the right to know or at least the right to an explanation as to why the nurse is responsible for cleaning up after the child and what subsequent precautions she puts into place so that her child would be safe should he need to be seen by the same nurse. I mean, this child is eating pb on a daily basis.

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Mar 5, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook: [b] Also, simply in thinking about it, if the child is eating pb for a medical condition, can the child not have someone assigned to him/her to clean up after he/she eats other than the school nurse?

[/b]

Would that be implying the certain persons are incapable of [i] cleaning up appropriately[/i]?

echoing previous sentiments, if so, then who would be *more capable*?

btw, many persons have noticed my child does not attend school "in district". And they want to know why. (in some situations, the presumptiveness with which the questions are presented still astounds me.)

Leaves me speechless, even. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] [i]I consider it my *right* and my <> to leave such questions [b]unanswered[/b] whenever we want to[/i]. And just because, even. It's my cub's, *my families* right to privacy. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Where my family's privacy is an issue, I owe no one anything. Not even morally or ethically. Personally? [i]I feel that is an inherent part of the concept of[/i][b] *The Right To Privacy*[/b]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Even tho in many instances, my family has [i]sacrificed[/i] privacy, I still respect others right to maintain it, especially when protected, if they so desire.

Just my personal perspective, I could be way off.

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Just describing my own personal, highly individual, and unique situation.

On Mar 5, 2005

[url="http://www.nasn.org/positions/2002psdelegation.htm"]http://www.nasn.org/positions/2002psdelegation.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.nasn.org/briefs/2004briefdelegation.htm"]http://www.nasn.org/briefs/2004briefdelegation.htm[/url]

General Disclaimer: I am not offerin advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, content, or currentness of the links in this post.

On Mar 5, 2005

Momma Bear, you asked:-

Would that be implying the certain persons are incapable of cleaning up appropriately?

No, I was not implying that certain persons are incapable of cleaning up appropriately. What I was asking with the particular quote from which you got your question to me, was whether or not, if the pb eating child has a medical condition, could they perhaps be assigned an aide (a positive thought, not a negative one) that could tend to the child at lunch when he/she is eating pb, which would include the cleaning up of the child, the area the child ate at, and then the person doing the cleaning themselves.

For me, I'm still trying to understand, very hard, and very sincerely, what medical condition someone could possibly have whereby they would need to eat a pb sandwich every day that they attend school, especially when they attend a "peanut free" school.

However.

One might ask why my children eat the same thing for the whole week (changes weekly).

As others have said in this thread, I do feel badly for the pb eating child being isolated - an instance that I, myself would not feel comfortable with and would hope that perhaps the other child could bring a buddy with them to eat. It is heart rendering.

I may raise the question separately - I honestly don't know of a situation where a child needs to eat a pb sandwich each day they are at school. Except, as has been explained to me, again, very kindly in this thread, if the child has SID.

I don't know what I would do if I was the mom. I let a LOT of things slide at my PA son's school(s). I mean that jar of peanuts in the main office. LOTS of stuff. Not proud of it, but hey, it happens.

I think I would simply ask if the nurse was cleaning her/himself appropriately after cleaning up after the pb eating child.

Although you have to admit, we are all rather curious as to why this child needs to be eating the pb every day, aren't we?

Can you say, while asking if she/he cleans themselves properly, "and by the by, why does the child eat pb each day". How old is the child?

I do fear my mind will be boggled eventually.

Earlier this evening, so didn't catch what show, I step out of the shower to a cell phone ringing (which meant it was DH who was out with both children and who also knew I wanted to have a shower in peace). It's at the computer desk. The computer desk is close to the TV. And while I'm speaking with him, I hear, on of the children's TV show's, "They're a perfect pair, they both have the same food allergies and both react to them the same way" and from what I could see without my glasses, two cartoon characters sitting eating a meal and their heads expanding. Not pleased.

And to-day, I want to be an on-line subscriber to The Ottawa Citizen so I can read the article katiee posted about so I can type up the letter - I mean, everyone knows it takes me so long to get anything done.

But the blasted TV keeps going in the background and I hear children jumping from bunk beds and the vanilla scent has not wafted far enough away from the candle to calm me and I really want to know, when there are four people in the household, why am I the person that is responsible for EVERYTHING? Or so it would appear. And the TV so loud behind me, as it seems to be 24 hours a day now, I can barely understand myself what I'm typing, and then the chattering to me when I am trying to make a valid point (not this), with the only bit of gosh darn respite I ever get in my life and I have to be chattered at (not my children) about stupidity on TV.

I give up! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/mad.gif[/img]

But no, Momma Bear, not implying anything. Again, an innocent question.

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Mar 6, 2005

MommaBear - this isn't a hospital. It is a school.

And while I agree medical information (if this is regarding a medical problem) is confidential I've asked for and been given answers by a school in the past. And the end result was - NO PROBLEM.

In my son's case, it was fear of a child being contagious. I asked the teacher, got a simple answer - end of problem. If I hadn't asked, I would have continued worrying - and why?

In themom's case - I'm not even saying they need to explain the medical reason the child needs pb. Just that, if it requires the nurse explain that it requires the nurse and these are the precautions taken. (Not WHY it requires the nurse - just THAT it requires the nurse.) Or maybe it doesn't require the nurse. Maybe they just feel that due to her training she is the one person they (i.e. the school) feel can most safely clean all the residue up.

Nobody is bashing nurses here. And, I'm not saying personal info needs to be divulged. Just explain things enough to ease the mental suffering of a mom that has already been through an ordeal.

On Mar 6, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnaMarie: [b]MommaBear - this isn't a hospital. It is a school.[/b]

HIPAA

FERPA

Quote:

[b]And while I agree medical information (if this is regarding a medical problem) is confidential I've asked for and been given answers by a school in the past. And the end result was - NO PROBLEM.

In my son's case, it was fear of a child being contagious. I asked the teacher, got a simple answer - end of problem. If I hadn't asked, I would have continued worrying - and why?[/b]

In some cases, and to even family members, and in the course of my employment, I'm not allowed to give out more than a condition report. Ie: critical, guarded, stable, etc...........

[quote[b]In themom's case - I'm not even saying they need to explain the medical reason the child needs pb. Just that, if it requires the nurse explain that it requires the nurse and these are the precautions taken. (Not WHY it requires the nurse - just THAT it requires the nurse.) Or maybe it doesn't require the nurse. Maybe they just feel that due to her training she is the one person they (i.e. the school) feel can most safely clean all the residue up.[/b][/quote]

I understand, I previously posted:

"[i]Is this information above and beyond "as needed" or in violation of another's right to privacy?

Or should there just be a general "policy/procedure/protocol" regarding "contact isolation" and the knowledge that it is instituted when necessary?[/i]"

Quote:

[b]Nobody is bashing nurses here.[/b]

I didn't think anyone was. Nor did I say anyone was either. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:

[b]And, I'm not saying personal info needs to be divulged. Just explain things enough to ease the mental suffering of a mom that has already been through an ordeal.[/b]

Not speaking of this situation, but of others, and sometimes, do you think it is always possible? I wonder if the other mother is also suffering? (For some reason, I'm having flashbacks of those people in the store staring at my cub to the point he was completely distressed.)

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

On Mar 7, 2005

Quote:

I wonder if the other mother is also suffering?

From what little I know about this entire situation - my guess is YES. I also think the other child is as well.

If I had a magic wand - I'd make it a perfect world.

On Mar 7, 2005

Entering this late... just wanted to add that I understand what MB is saying... I think.

Correct me, MB, but what I understand you to express is that there are limits to what a Registered Nurse can and cannot do regarding delegating to others and regarding sharing information. Both areas are, to use the verbiage in the links MB posted, a "complex legal issue" that is very regulated by, amongst many others things, state nursing acts. A nurse is [i]legally bound[/i] to uphold such professional practices (like the "Health Information Privacy Act" HIPA, for example, and those links posted by MB that are particular to school nurses), etc.

MB was stating that the nurse may not be able to divulge such basic information because it violates her professional and legal obligation.

I know, for example, that Mariah's PA can ONLY be communicated to others on a [b]"need to know" basis.[/b] I believe this is a medical-legal term. If I were to learn that the nurse was communicating information about Mariah's PA to another parent/staff/anyone (i.e. if I felt our privacy was violated) and I challenged her about it, she would be required to defend her decision to share this information on the basis of [i]why[/i] the other individual "needed to know".

I've had some conversations with our school nurse about these issues and she expresses quite clearly that the "buck" stops with her... it's [i]her[/i] license, [i]her[/i] job, [i]her[/i] liability, "[i]her a** on the line"[/i] etc.

I think MB was just begging the question: do you think the nurse should violate someone elses' rights as well as violate her own highly regulated professional practices? Would [i]you[/i], as a school nurse, be willing to put all that on the line?

On the other hand, MommaBear, could you see a possible way for the school nurse to reassure themom (AnnaMarie's point) that procedures [i]were[/i] in place ...in a manner that would be appropriate? Just curious...

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited March 07, 2005).]

On Mar 7, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]

On the other hand, MommaBear, could you see a possible way for the school nurse to reassure themom (AnnaMarie's point) that procedures [i]were[/i] in place ...in a manner that would be appropriate? Just curious...

[/b]

[b]Standard of Care[/b], Policy, Procedure, Protocol, Standard Operating Procedures, what another similiarly trained, experienced, and licensed [i]professional[/i] would do [i]and be obligated[/i] to do?

Personally? Professionally? [i]I'd back off[/i] any conversation where the subject of another individual under my care (or possibly even not) entered the conversation.

Personally? Professionally? [i]There is information about persons professionally served even *the professionals* who serve them, are asked to verify their [b]need to know[/b] for.[/i] I mean, in some instances, computer software tracks what information is accessed, and if attempts to access (under user id) certain information there are questions that must be answered before proceeding. (Or being allowed to proceed).

Separately, I'd discuss generally, and not with specific regard to any individual, other than those of whom, by law, were allowed to be discussed with.

I guess *need to know* would *need to be defined*. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Would a *need to know* be decided, in part, by whether such information impacts delivery of care or The caregiver(s)?

Sorta off topic, but for some reason, I'm thinking of "Universal Precautions" and the rational behind them and other similiar directives developed by multidisciplinary experts. Can't quite put my finger on why. yet. might just be a tangent. and very tangental at that.

ps. do you think, in some cases, it's easier to understand the right to *financial privacy* (does HIPAA address that?) than it is to understand the right to *personal and even medical privacy*? I mean, where things are more cut and dried and there is less emoting? Take concerned neighbors when ambulances arrive. I mean, as opposed to the teller window and designated waiting areas ("ie: In order to protect customer privacy, please stand behind this line until you are served). Maybe, sometimes, [i]lines[/i] are less visible, less evident?

pps.....recently noticed at the pharmacy I frequent, "HIPAA Compliant" modifications. Among other things, little footprints to stand in. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner of form. Just describing my own personal, highly individual, and unique situation.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited March 07, 2005).]

On Mar 7, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] I guess at some point, do we have to accept the right to confidentiality, make decisions as permitted by law for their own children, and possibly work "in good faith" with those in authority at such institutions like schools.......[/b]

I just really liked this... and wanted to repeat it here.

You've raised the concept of "good faith" here on the boards. I have "faith" and trust our school because they have proven themselves trustworthy. They are competent professionals. I learn from them.

I take for granted that my school is competent. But as is sadly pointed out on these boards all too often, this is not the case in many schools. It would be hard to have "good faith", to trust a school that has proven themselves untrustworthy. And I can understand a mother needing the reassurances that certain precautions have been made. I can understand how it could be that themom would need to followup with school staff to make sure that a nurse or any other professional is doing their job.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited March 07, 2005).]

On Mar 7, 2005

Confidentiality is a big issue to me. I live in a pretty small city where most people know each other and if you don't someone you know, knows them. So there are alot of times I unfortunately do not feel comfortable disclosing medical information at certain offices because I fear who may find out what. I know it is an issue with alot of people. Even if the person doesn't share the info, they still have it. And you still wonder.

I had a neighbor who worked at a dr.s office and after she quit she would mention things here and there. I know its wrong, its illegal, its unethical, and I also know not all people violate this trust. But, I know some of them do. Am I willing to risk it?

Another thing as far as confidentiality for our kids. Yes, everyone knows my son is the pa child at school. I want them to know. But one day a parent was asking why they were washing their hands, and my sister explained and pointed out that it was for my son. Just based on who the parent was, I wasn't really comfortable with them knowing. Shouldn't I have the right to decide who knows my childs medical history? Now that was my sister, and she doesn't work there or anything, it was just a feeling I had. I wasn't really upset, but just bothered me a little.

And anyways, do our kids always have to be the "peanut kid"?

Anyways, themom, I'm sorry you are uncomfortable with this, but I think it is ok. I think the nurse is aware of how serious her responsibilities are with regard to your child.

On Mar 7, 2005

[url="http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/"]http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/[/url]

I mean, are we talking [i]Civil Rights[/i] and [i]Federal Law[/i]?

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, currentness, or content of the link in this post.

On Mar 7, 2005

FERPA?

On Mar 8, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]FERPA?[/b]

[url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html[/url]

I wasn't familiar with FERPA until I read this link.

On Mar 8, 2005

Thank you, Gail, just wondering, which one do you suppose what is being questioned would fall under? Is it possible that both would be effective? [i]Or, would it be impossible to determine unless one was on a *need to know* basis?[/i]

On Mar 8, 2005

MommaBear,

I'm imagining you here:

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001780.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001780.html[/url]

in the front row (teacher's pet). I visualize you wearing scrubs (I always do) with your hand raised (full extention) ready to ask this question. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

On Mar 8, 2005

that's odd, since I imagine myself being asked to leave. Who knows, I could be wrong.

On Mar 8, 2005

Huh?

On Mar 8, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by GailW[b]

Huh? [/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

oh, don't mind me. I still have so many unanswered questions. It would be a [i]pleasure[/i] to ask them. I'm assuming then, one can't be ejected for asking what one might consider to be pivotal questions regarding IDEA and Section 504?

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited March 08, 2005).]

On Mar 8, 2005

Go. Ask. Even if the answers are biased or incomplete or untrue, (perhaps [i]especially[/i] if they are biased, incomplete, untrue) you'll learn a lot.

[i]"The wise learn many things from their enemies." [/i](someone said that, didn't they?)

Perhaps just your very presence there would make a difference?

On Mar 8, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b][i]"The wise learn many things from their enemies." [/i](someone said that, didn't they?)

[/b]

ooo. [b]A Greek Thing.[/b] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

On Mar 8, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Gail W: [b]Go. Ask. [/b]

[i]beg the question..........[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

On Mar 8, 2005

Okay,

First, I have enjoyed everyone's input. Its amazing how far computers have brought us in the communication department.

I have an answer to the kid eating PB in the office.

The child's doctor has called the school saying the child needs to eat peanutbutter because he/she is loosing weight and not eating anything else. So it is not just a picky eater thing.

The school understands my concern with the nurse cleaning up after the child, my son could need her while she is cleaning up PB and he would have to wait when it could be life or death. The nurse was only cleaning up after the child because she was convient (the nurse's office is right there in the office). So as far as I know the child is still eating PB (fine with me) but someone else is cleaning up after him/her.

I am still recovering from my surgery, two weeks tomorrow, so I have not had the fight in me to question further about the other questions I had, ie the third lunch group eating PB.

Thank you all for your input and support, it is great comfort to know there are many others who understand.

FYI My younger son is the SID

My older son has PA,all nuts, legumes, seeds, anything related to nuts at all allergies. And asthma.

On Mar 8, 2005

thanks for the update, themom.

On Mar 9, 2005

themom, glad to hear you were able to get some of your situation resolved. Hope your recovery is going well.

Gail W. Are you a linguist? You speak MB's language - and mine - so clearly. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

MB, I never even considered the nurse breaking her professional or personal practices. I just assumed (there's that nasty word again) that the principal could say something to the parent. I'm not saying principal's have no morals - just that they are trained for a school environment in a different way then, say, a school nurse is. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

On Mar 9, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnaMarie: [b] Gail W. Are you a linguist? You speak MB's language - and mine - so clearly. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

MB, I never even considered the nurse breaking her professional or personal practices. I just assumed (there's that nasty word again) that the principal could say something to the parent. I'm not saying principal's have no morals - just that they are trained for a school environment in a different way then, say, a school nurse is. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img][/b]

Do you think that could explain why sometimes people report difficulties getting accommodations? That possibly the [i]obligation[/i] is not recognized? Perspective, I mean. (but then again, there is that whole FERPA>>><<

Anywhoooooooooo. I posted earlier:

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b] [url="http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/"]http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/[/url]

I mean, are we talking [i]Civil Rights[/i] and [i]Federal Law[/i]?[/b]

Do you think I should have added: "Scope of Professional Standards and Practice" or "Ethical Obligation"?

[i]There are State Boards that clearly define mine.[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy, content, or currentness of the link in this post.

On Mar 9, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by AnnaMarie: [b]Gail W. Are you a linguist? You speak MB's language - and mine - so clearly. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]

Translator maybe? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

My past experiences as a Health Educator give me some experience and insight. MB brings such great info to these boards, and being that I'm 'just' a lay person now, I have more latitude (is that the right legal word MB?) than MB has to make statements about their meaning or application (i.e. "translate").

The reality is that there are laws (federal, state, local) that apply and affect us. They apply to us as parents, they apply to our children (e.g. rights), they apply to our schools, and they apply to professionals and institutions. It is a fact that MommaBear brings to our conversations, Thank Goodness! I am grateful.

Edited to add: I just posted a job description for school nurse (schools) and noted this:

[i]"All duties are performed in accordance with district/state board of education policies and procedures and state law regarding nurse practice."[/i]

and

[i]"Maintains confidentiality regarding all school and health-related issues."[/i]

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited March 09, 2005).]

On Mar 9, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by GailW:[/b]

Edited to add: I just posted a job description for school nurse (schools) and noted this:

[i]"All duties are performed in accordance with district/state board of education policies and procedures and state law regarding nurse practice."[/i]

and

[i]"Maintains confidentiality regarding all school and health-related issues."[/i]

[/B]

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001793.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001793.html[/url]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Mar 9, 2005

"latitude". Yes.

ps........once an educator, always an educator. [i]Callings[/i] can be that way. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

As usual Gail, your style and grace is a great example to me. This past school year, I kept thinking: Be a hammer. [i]A velvet hammer[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

On Mar 9, 2005

Thanks MB.

Quote:

Originally posted by MommaBear: [b]This past school year, I kept thinking: Be a hammer. [i]A velvet hammer[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img][/b]

I still like this nickname. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Adding: Reader, please don't be sickened by MommaBear's and my "mutual admiration". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited March 09, 2005).]

On Mar 10, 2005

the mom, it was good to see your up-date. I'm glad you got things sorted re the nurse.

As far as the third period lunch eating pb, I know that is probably what you want to tackle next and with good reason.

Get yourself rested and well first. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I don't know if this would be any consolation, but it is something I have been thinking about as a separate question - there have been a lot of things that I have let slide with my PA son's school(s) for whatever reason(s).

For example, in this thread, I mentioned how the office had a jar of peanuts in it. We don't have school nurses here so the person that would probably be dealing with my son should he have a reaction would most likely be the peanut eating secretary. For whatever reason that year, I chose to let it be.

(I'm not telling you to let your concerns be, not after what you have been through).

What I am trying to say, and give an example or two, is that my son has NEVER had a reaction at school except in the breakfast program that I was running (it was an ingestion reaction due to cross-contamination).

He is in his sixth year of school. It was only in Grade Two, after a member posted here about her son having a reaction to residue on a computer keyboard that my son began carrying his own keyboard and mouse to school, so for three years previous, in computer lab, he used the school's.

I'm not advocating letting things slide and am actually embarrassed to admit that again, for whatever reason(s), I have let some things slide.

What I'm trying to say is I think you can take the time you need to recuperate first so that you can begin following up again on what needs to be followed up on.

I hope you feel better soon and glad you at least got one thing sorted. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Mar 22, 2005

I spoke with the principal the other day. She informed me that the Sub who told my mother's 4th grade class to go ahead and eat the pb product has been told that she either follows the school policy all the time or does not come back to the school, ever. I thought that was great.

She said that the rumor that the third lunch period is allowed to eat pb products is not true and she would never allow that to happen.

The child in question who has "had" to eat pb is no longer eating pb and it was more of an ADHD problem than an eating problem.

So for the moment things are okay.

Thanks for the support and advice.

Jen

On Mar 22, 2005

Thanks for posting an update. I'm glad to hear things are going well.

On Mar 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by themom: [b] The child in question who has "had" to eat pb is no longer eating pb and it was more of an ADHD problem than an eating problem. [/b]

I'm glad that the PB eating isn't happening anymore, but please keep in mind that ADHD is a disability.

On Mar 22, 2005

Sorry, but can't help but wonder what the heck peanut butter eating every day, isolated, has to do with being ADHD?

What has eating the same food (no matter what it is) got to do with ADHD, unless the parents were trying to keep the child to a familiar/regular routine? Even then, I'm sorry, to me, that one is a stretch.

I'm glad that you were able to get things cleared up, the mom. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Yes, as solarflare has mentioned, ADHD is considered a disability, but honestly, I don't see where it's a disability that involves the eating of pb every day and being isolated from your classmates.

Now, if it is ADHD and the child was being isolated so as not to disturb other students, I can maybe begin to understand that (not understand it, but see why it *could* be happening). I don't believe an ADHD child should be isolated at lunch.

But what has this got to do with pb?

It was not because the child was either a picky eater and losing weight or because the child had SID.

To me, it would mean that the child was bringing pb into the school and perhaps was so active, he/she was flying around the room with it rather than staying seated - but again, it was going against the wishes of the peanut/nut/etc. free school.

I'll leave this for a couple of days to see what response is perhaps gotten in here, but honestly, I have never heard of a child, because they are labeled ADHD, that needs to eat pb (and more importantly, be isolated because of it) every day.

To me that is quite odd.

And would that be the only ADHD student in the school? I would think probably not.

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

On Mar 22, 2005

I'm glad things are working out for you.

I don't know how ADHD is related to eating peanut butter, but it does concern me that the nurse shared this information with you. Isn't that violating that childs confidentiality? I think she could have just skirted around why and told you it stopped. I don't think she had the right to tell you what another childs health issues are.

So did the mother voluntarily stop the p.b. or did they make her stop? If so, what was the reason?

On Mar 24, 2005

The nurse was not the one who told me it was ADHD

The doctor had asked the school to allow this child to eat pb because of weight loss, which was more because the child was too distracted to eat during normal lunch and was loosing weight.

WEight is back up, child no longer eating pb.

Believe me I know ADHD is a disability, my nut allergic child has a learning disability. There are times when this disability that he has frustrates him so much that he begins to exibit ADHD like symptoms.

On Mar 24, 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by themom: [b]I spoke with the principal the other day.....[/b]

Quote:

[b]...... She informed me that the Sub who told my mother's 4th grade class to go ahead and eat the pb product has been told that she either follows the school policy all the time or does not come back to the school, ever. I thought that was great.

She said that the rumor that the third lunch period is allowed to eat pb products is not true and she would never allow that to happen.

The child in question who has "had" to eat pb is no longer eating pb and it was more of an ADHD problem than an eating problem.

[/b]

?

On Apr 1, 2005

Hmmm, I agree with csc that linking ADHD and a need to eat peanut butter seems like quite a stretch. One thought I had, though, is that maybe the child was on stimulants which took his appetite away. (This is a common side effect for kids on stimulants.) Maybe pb was the only healthy, high calorie food that he would eat during the day. ADHD does often go with other comorbidities, though, so maybe there were other issues. I'm so glad he isn't requiring the pb anymore.

themom, I am so glad that the principal handled the sub so well, and that the 3rd lunch period thing was just a rumor.

I hope you are feeling well!

You really have your hands full with your two boys and all their special needs. (I have my hands full with my one who has all the special needs and the pa & tna. So far my other one seems like a pretty "typical" kid, and he is allergy free. Go figure?!)

hugs}}}

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Miriam

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