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Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 9:06am
LisaM's picture
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Joined: 11/04/2005 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
she failed to follow the rule about not taking them off.
Oh, I see now---a sin of comission rather than of omission. It sounds like for some reason she is finding it awkward or uncomfortable sometimes to wear her epis since she takes them off from time to time . . .

Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 9:23am
Going Nuts's picture
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I didn't get to read the whole thread - only the first two posts, so forgive any repetition.
I think the fact that she made it this far without losing it is pretty miraculous! I know she is a highly unusual kid, but she [i]is[/i] still only 7. I don't think putting it down and forgetting it is so unusual for that age. Heck, it may be even more common at my age! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
My son has (twice!) left it overnight in the car - once in ridiculously hot conditions, the other time in below freezing temps. I was livid - that cost me $50 each time to replace them. To add insult to injury the second time it happened they were only a week old.
Now for the tricky part. I was hard-pressed to come up with an appropriate punishment, because I don't want him to afraid to let me know if it happens again. I'd rather shell out the $50 than have him walk around with ruined epipens, KWIM? It's a tightrope, to be sure.
Did anyone turn them in to the lost & found?
Amy

Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 10:06am
mommyofmatt's picture
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Hmmmm. We're not remotely in a position for ds to carry his own epipens. I wish we were though, because I think it's an important habit to get into when the time is right. He's still at the point where he likes to pretend he can eat peanuts [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] Don't get me started!
Well, from reading Corvallis Mom's posts, it sounds like she's been wearing the epis for a LONG time now, and has done well with this. Since that's the case, I think it's pretty safe to say that Corvallis Mom knows she's capable of carrying her own epipens.
I can't think of a parent who would strap them onto a child who's screaming bloody murder they don't want them or showing obvious signs of stress over wearing them.
I have no idea what I'd do in this situation, since like I said, we've ummmmm got a ways to go maturity and understanding wise.
My only question is this: Could it be possible that social pressures/desires to fit in are becoming more important and distracting her? Or even making her wish she didn't need the epis so she puts them down more?
Based on some of your descriptions of reactions Corvallis Mom, I completely understand how you want her to KNOW the necessity of the epi.
Best of luck on the latest roller coaster ride of allergy management! Meg

Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 10:32am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b]This isn't about "punishment" so much as it is about correcting a problem.[/b]
If I may be so bold as to say, it doesn't actually sound like a "punishment" to me. Not in the traditional sense. It sounds more like "logical consequences".
[i]You forgot your epi-pens. Therefore, the logical consequence is that you must stay where I can see you until I know you will remember them.[/i]
It doesn't sound (to me) like you are saying she can't do [i]something[/i]. You are just saying where she can do it.

Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 10:32am
Corvallis Mom's picture
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Thanks, mattsmommy and Going Nuts...
As LisaM pointed out, I immediately suspected the bag (which is relatively new) but she vehemently denies that it was uncomfortable in any way...
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img] So I think it is probably just that she is distracted and in the course of fidgeting (or whatever you call it when 7 yo)... she takes them off-- then she gets distracted and totally spaces on putting them back on. She knows that she can ALWAYS choose any carrier she chooses. It has always been her choice. And we will ALWAYS carry them for her if she asks. Always-- but she knows that comes with a 50 yd leash tying her to them.
This is why we want her to [i]really[/i] reform her ways about taking them off to begin with. If we can just get her into the habit of following a "rule" about that, all should be well again. This is because she so rarely makes this mistake in restaurants or in leaving the house-- there's a rule.
FWIW, we [i]all[/i] feel that we got off relatively easy. Including the driving, the gas, and DD's monthlong retraining regimen. (Since some people objected to "punishment" if I didn't get any either...)
And I think it is worth noting that I have let other incidents go without any punishment-- this was a judgement call. I have in the past cases also been torn between "reassuring" and "letting her stew." But there is a reason that I used to term "unrepentent" in my original post. And I stand by it. If she had freaked out and been suitably remorseful, that would have been a different situation, but she didn't. And yet I definitely don't sense rebellion at the root of it. If I did, we wouldn't be handling it this way. It was an honest mistake-- made by someone who was being a bit careless and distracted. She can be that way about anything else... forget your shoes, forget your coat, forget your pants, even, but not that. KWIM?
ETA: Yes, Annamarie, this is exactly what we decided and why. DH initially wanted her to share the costs of replacing the bag and its contents, and later I talked him out of making her pay for half the gasoline expense... (which I thought was too harsh, even as mad as I was). We discussed this at some length last night in the car while DD was sleeping on the way home.
On a lighter note, a whiny DH is now claiming that his severely sunburnt feet might really be [i]my fault[/i] as well. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] After all, I didn't remind him to use sunscreen.... (sigh)
[This message has been edited by Corvallis Mom (edited September 11, 2006).]

Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 11:51am
Peg541's picture
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Joined: 12/29/2002 - 09:00

On another note, you mentioned your daughter had been in a beach bathroom.
Here in CA and other places there is an alarming increase in the number of child molestations occuring in park, lake and beach bathrooms. They are open to everyone and dangerous places for bad people to lurk.
A number of children have been assaulted while their mothers stood outside of the bathrooms waiting for their child to come out.
Just information.
peg

Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 11:59am
3xy1PAinNH's picture
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Joined: 08/07/2006 - 09:00

I have been thoughtfully thinking about your situation all day today...
I agree with the post that stated that "no matter what, at this point, don't change the consequences of her actions." Stick by your parenting choice. No one knows better than you.
BUT, having said that, I have just read the whole thread, and you keep commenting about her doing things like this a lot in the last few weeks, and then 18 montha ago...nearly every post mentions how she has been forgetful with the Epi's.
I am new here and don't know a lot about you and your daughter (ie her rxns)...but I did catch that she is gifted.
Have you considered sitting down with her in a 'family meeting' and asking her point blank. "We would like you think about this and get back to us tommorrow morning...Do you think you are ready and willing to carry your epipens? Or is there a concern or issue you have with doing so?"
I would imagine there could be emotional damage done to a child that might feel insecure about her ability to play a substantial role in the saving of her own life? KWIM?
I come to you with this b/c I was a gifted child. I had a very controlling mother who kept me quite close to the apron strings. I was terrified of her, and thus NEVER wanted to disappoint her. I did everything she asked me to. TO her, I seemed very mature. Yet in reality, I was socially VERY niave. I would even say immature for my age. Unfortunately my mother didn't find the 'balance' to allow me to excel in a gifted program (she just didn't know any better). Kinda shocking to get to late high school and start blowing away tests and find out jsut how stinkin' high my IQ was. My point is, there is a balance. I used to think about things like my purpose on the universe and the meaning of life at the age of 6! But I had such a controlling mother I never got to make any decisions.
Maybe your daughter feels out of control too (lord knows PA can do that)...and maybe by having a heart to heart with her you can give her a little control.
I understand you want her to be responsible...and as a parent.. you won't find another mom more on the 'responsibility' bandwagon...but maybe the responsibility can wait. Tell her you can revisit her medical action plan every 3 months, with the expectation that if she doesn't want to carry the epi now, she can again in 3 or 6 months, or a year. And also with teh understanding that if she doesn't carry it, she can't go roaming the neighbhorhood without you in tow! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Good luck...sorry for such a long post!
Edited to add...I think you think you are giving her control and responsibility by making her carry the epis. In fact she might not be ready, and the control she needs is to be able to say, "Not yet".
[This message has been edited by 3xy1PAinNH (edited September 11, 2006).]

Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 1:14pm
Corvallis Mom's picture
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OMG!!!! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/eek.gif[/img] Peg-- I just realized that you must have thought I let her go alone. OMG NOOOOOOO. Trust me-- I am nowhere near that naive-- and I won't say why, but [i]I know better.[/i]
So no, she was with me (and our dog, who had followed us in.) It had been so windy that I knelt down and was gently removing the sand from our dog's nose and eyes with a damp paper towel while DD washed her hands. This is why I didn't notice that she didn't have them on-- when we walked out the door, she was walking slightly behind me and the dog (who was off-leash, so I needed to keep up with her in the parking lot). DD was never actually out of my sight, but I was not looking [i]at[/i] her, if that makes sense.
(NO wonder you thought I was negligent.) Holy cow.
And my thanks also for the perspective about my daughter perhaps being a bit intimidated to say anything to us. Knowing her, I strongly doubt it-- but a household full of type A people, you never know, right? Communication isn't a problem for her... LOL!! She certainly tells me [i]exactly[/i] what she thinks. Come to think of it, she only holds back with people she doesn't know and trust.
I would also anticipate that if she were uncomfortable with the idea of carrying them, she would hand them off to one of us all the time. And she definitely doesn't-- not even if we ask if she would like to. She knows that just carrying them doesn't mean we expect her to know how to use them. We've absolutely covered that-- she knows that eventually, yes, that will belong to her as well, but not now. Not until SHE is ready. We actually took that sort of approach to her carrying them in the first place, as bizarre as that sounds. She WANTED to.
What worries me most about this pattern (and her response yesterday) is that I suspect that the memory of her last anaphylactic reaction is finally beginning to fade. I talked to her about that yesterday and was deeply distressed to realize that she doesn't recall it well enough now for it to feel frightening. (She was 2, and for years, this was very clear in her mind... at least the parts where her BP was high enough to be powering her brain sufficiently.) So I am wondering if we are now battling [i]that[/i]... It never even dawned on me that she might eventually forget even a near-death experience. It was so clear for so long that I truly just assumed she would always recall it. Much of her handling of her allergy has hinged on it.
That makes me more afraid than I can put into words.

Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 1:34pm
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[b]So I think it is probably just that she is distracted and in the course of fidgeting (or whatever you call it when 7 yo)... she takes them off-- then she gets distracted and totally spaces on putting them back on. She knows that she can ALWAYS choose any carrier she chooses. It has always been her choice. And we will ALWAYS carry them for her if she asks. Always-- but she knows that comes with a 50 yd leash tying her to them.[/b]
Right. She is 7. Maybe the problem I am having is that I don't equate my son's intelligence, with his readiness to carry his Epi-pens. I make that judgement for him, because he is only 7. And that, right now, regardless of his PA/TNA, he will have that '50 yard leash' tied to him -- because he is 7. Right now, I feel both my children are too young to be anywhere without DH or I, or a combo of the two -- and when he is at school there are adults that are responsible for him (with his medication in class with him).
I'm trying to find the right analogy to get across what I mean. All I can think of is that when I was in my teens I was allowed to do a lot of things because I was smart and responsible -- or so my parents thought. Now, looking back, there were many things they should have said 'No' to because I was only a teenager -- regardless of my maturity.
[b]This is why we want her to really reform her ways about taking them off to begin with. If we can just get her into the habit of following a "rule" about that, all should be well again. This is because she so rarely makes this mistake in restaurants or in leaving the house-- there's a rule.[/b]
Again, for me, punishment for something that you are establishing as a habit, and viewed as a mistake if she forgets, doesn't seem fair to me. She is 7 -- making a mistake, as opposed to willful disobedience, are two different things to me. You trying to instill good habits in her is a good thing - but if she doesn't get punished for forgetting other things, and what she gets is a reminder, well, to me I think that the response to forgetting Epi-pens should be along the same lines -- because she is 7.
[b]On another note, you mentioned your daughter had been in a beach bathroom.
Here in CA and other places there is an alarming increase in the number of child molestations occuring in park, lake and beach bathrooms. They are open to everyone and dangerous places for bad people to lurk.
A number of children have been assaulted while their mothers stood outside of the bathrooms waiting for their child to come out.
Just information.
peg [/b]
Peg -- I hear you on this. Everytime I think about the age when people will start to look strangly at me if I'm taking my boys into the bathroom with me, I think about that case a few years back in So. CA where the little boy was murdered in a beach bathroom while a family member stood outside and waited for him. I think the boy was about 9 -- was brutally murdered. Very scary. I really don't know at what age I'll feel like they can go into a men's room by themselves --

Posted on: Mon, 09/11/2006 - 2:29pm
Corvallis Mom's picture
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gvmom, I hear what you are saying loud and clear. I just don't agree with you. I think you are well-intended, but I would never dream of telling YOU that I think you are doing your 7 yo a disservice by not getting him used to wearing the epipens he'll need to carry for a lifetime. Not my decision. (shrug)
This is a PA management decision that we made years ago-- with our allergist and our daughter. Her Hx means it would be catastrophic for her to ever be without them-- even "just next door" or "in the car."
I don't trust a school to be able to do it right-- and I know plenty of teachers. But I don't criticize those who send their kids for that basic decision when they run into trouble with the situation. Different strokes for different folks.
The bottom line is that I just disagree with you on this one [i]regarding my daughter[/i], and so does her allergist. He knows her, and has substantial experience with children like her-- and your son, I might add. He freely admits that this isn't for all PA kids at this age-- but it IS for ours.
As MB would say-- unique situation, IMMV.

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