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Posted on: Wed, 09/13/2006 - 9:51am
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b]Nothing says you can't be squeaky [i]while[/i] you're being sweet. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
[/b]
Nothing says that being squeaky is anything less than appropriate. People who interpret someone pointing out what *should* be, what is *supposed* to be, are [i]suspect[/i] in my book. [b]Guilty[/b].
I've never had a problem with people who have concerns, or complaints for that matter. If it takes someone "outside" the system to see where the problem lies, to make a fuss, then [i]shame on those[/i] [b]inside the system[/b]. It just should never happen.
[i]shame, shame, shame.[/i]
If a problem gets referred to my [i]superior[/i] that I was a direct variable in, that I had an obligation in, then hey, it was probably [i]staring me right in the face[/i] at one point or another. Probably several times.
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited September 13, 2006).]

Posted on: Wed, 09/13/2006 - 12:43pm
Gail W's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b]Put yourself in this teacher's shoes-- she's been told [i]SEVERAL[/i] different things by different "authority figures", right? (And the rules evidently keep changing as fast as she can keep up!) She knows that making a mistake could cost a child his life. I'd be terrified.[/b]
Exactly.
But this is what I find most terrifying: on top of all that, sometimes teachers and school nurses also [i]fear for their job[/i]. I've seen and experienced it personally. Others here have also posted about it (thinking of bandbmom, Drew's mom). When push comes to shove, most teachers are going to do what s/he is told to do by the superior who evaluates him/her. It's [i]self-preservation. [/i]
I'll always remember the conversation I had with the school nurse before Mariah's 504 eligibility meeting. She essentially [i]apologized[/i] to me before the meeting because she didn't know what the outcome would be and wanted me to know that that she would have to 'fall in line' with whatever her supervisor ruled. She [i]knew[/i] it would be wrong to deny Mariah a 504 designation, but she knew that she couldn't risk losing her job by disagreeing with ~defying~ her supervisor or the Super if that was his decision. She was basically asking me for my understanding and forgiveness if that's how things would have gone. (That was one of those conversations that included a lot of human emotion, including fear, and also involved *a hug*.)
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited September 13, 2006).]

Posted on: Wed, 09/13/2006 - 12:59pm
Corvallis Mom's picture
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You make a great point, actually, MB... better still when combined with the other one...
Common enemy.... staring in the face, several times.
Best to have [i]as many squeaky wheels as possible in that case, wouldn't you say?[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] The enemy of my enemy and all that. If you can be nice enough to reach beyond someone's fear of the situation they find themselves in, they may be willing to become an ally in a mutual [i]cause.[/i] The cause of defeating beauracratic inertia/institutional flaws. KWIM?
This is [i]always[/i] my strategy, by the way-- and it pays HUGE dividends. Regularly.
Glad this came up, actually-- it is something I have been searching for a way to say for a long time.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 09/13/2006 - 11:13pm
Rosemary S's picture
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NicoleinNH,
I

Posted on: Wed, 09/13/2006 - 11:25pm
MommaBear's picture
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Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b]You make a great point, actually, MB... better still when combined with the other one...
Common enemy.... staring in the face, several times.
Best to have [i]as many squeaky wheels as possible in that case, wouldn't you say?[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] The enemy of my enemy and all that. If you can be nice enough to reach beyond someone's fear of the situation they find themselves in, they may be willing to become an ally in a mutual [i]cause.[/i] The cause of defeating beauracratic inertia/institutional flaws. KWIM?
This is [i]always[/i] my strategy, by the way-- and it pays HUGE dividends. Regularly.
[/b]
Your strategy assumes people [i]care[/i].
I mean, other than what happens to their own backside.
It's a dangerous assumption.

Posted on: Wed, 09/13/2006 - 11:30pm
MommaBear's picture
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repeating......
Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Exactly.
But this is what I find most terrifying: on top of all that, sometimes teachers and school nurses also [i]fear for their job[/i]. I've seen and experienced it personally. Others here have also posted about it (thinking of bandbmom, Drew's mom). When push comes to shove, most teachers are going to do what s/he is told to do by the superior who evaluates him/her. It's [i]self-preservation. [/i]
[/b]
My biggest flaw is my aptitude for [i]tunnel vision[/i]. Assuming everyone looks at things the way I do. It was a huge step for me to finally realize that even some of the most cuddly, drippy sweet, [i]pleasant[/i] people involved in my cubs care put [i]Numero Uno[/i] above someone else's life. Were more worried about [i]getting in trouble[/i], than [i]doing the right thing[/i].
It's a realization you have to learn to make. I've had to practice restraint....
Discerning which of those *nice* (or even not so nice) people will do the *right* thing is not a luxury I can afford now. Actually, I never could afford it. I've just been [i]lucky[/i]. Or so I have been told.....but I digress.
Anywhoooo. Looking back, it's probably the old [i]battle axes[/i], the seemingly unfriendly, the [i]prickly[/i] people, that have done me the greatest good. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Not the gooey ones.
This may be a backbone issue.
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited September 14, 2006).]

Posted on: Thu, 09/14/2006 - 12:18am
mommyofmatt's picture
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Joined: 03/12/2004 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Rosemary S:
[b]NicoleinNH,
This requirement is not a state law, but is in the State

Posted on: Thu, 09/14/2006 - 6:24am
Corvallis Mom's picture
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Joined: 05/22/2001 - 09:00

Quote:
Your strategy assumes people care.
I mean, other than what happens to their own backside.
Not at all-- I am quite possibly the world's biggest cynic.
I [i]never[/i] assume such a thing. Because I agree that this is a dangerous thing to do. I assume that people in general will [i]always[/i] do [b]what is in thier personal best interests.[/b] If I can make them aware that helping ME is not incompatible with that and that [i]I do not pose a danger to them[/i] then they can pleasantly surprise me. And they do. (But count on it-- never.)
This is why I may be very nice, but I'm not especially forthcoming with information they don't need to have.
I always come loaded for bear-- but I don't start by shooting at the chipmunks. The chipmunks, you see, are afraid of the bear too--and the bear is utterly indifferent to the chipmunks. Once in a while, one of the chipmunks decides they've had enough of that bear. I'll take advantage of that any time I can-- it may only be an annoyance to the bear, but it gives me a chance to [i]reload.[/i] The chipmunks are always surprised that I turn out to have that gun...
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I don't know if it works for everyone, though. My DH is utterly tone-deaf to political stuff too. To make my method work very well, I think you have to be able to read people very well and be able know what individual people are afraid of...empathy bordering on ESP, in other words. DH ain't got it. He tends to use your approach, MB. (With great success, I might add... picture[i] DH chases the bear out the back of the china shop, turns as he crashes through the back wall, shouting "Don't worry-- I'll pay for that later!!"[/i])
He is simply in awe of what I can accomplish by seemingly NEVER even demanding anything. Yoda. That's what he calls me in my element. (Of course, he calls it "That taoist cr@p" otherwise...) His method works better when you are dealing with all bears and don't have time for the set up. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] On the flip side, there is a communication/thinking style (emotive, non-assertive) common in educators that simply doesn't [i]allow[/i] them to really listen to you unless they feel they can "relate" to you or like you. DH figures he can just stomp them out of the way. I figure... I can take a shower later. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] (In other words, [i]yes[/i] it is a little like selling them something. But they can't hear you otherwise.)
All I'm saying is that there is more than one highly effective communication style. But probably only one [i]per person.[/i] My DH's style isn't one I can weild effectively, so I don't try. (And dare I say-- vice versa.)

Posted on: Thu, 09/14/2006 - 6:54am
MommaBear's picture
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Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
Not at all-- I am quite possibly the world's biggest cynic.
I [i]never[/i] assume such a thing. Because I agree that this is a dangerous thing to do. I assume that people in general will [i]always[/i] do [b]what is in thier personal best interests.[/b] If I can make them aware that helping ME is not incompatible with that and that [i]I do not pose a danger to them[/i] then they can pleasantly surprise me. And they do. (But count on it-- never.)
This is why I may be very nice, but I'm not especially forthcoming with information they don't need to have.
I always come loaded for bear-- but I don't start by shooting at the chipmunks. The chipmunks, you see, are afraid of the bear too--and the bear is utterly indifferent to the chipmunks. Once in a while, one of the chipmunks decides they've had enough of that bear. I'll take advantage of that any time I can-- it may only be an annoyance to the bear, but it gives me a chance to [i]reload.[/i] The chipmunks are always surprised that I turn out to have that gun...
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I don't know if it works for everyone, though. My DH is utterly tone-deaf to political stuff too. To make my method work very well, I think you have to be able to read people very well and be able know what individual people are afraid of...empathy bordering on ESP, in other words. DH ain't got it. He tends to use your approach, MB. (With great success, I might add... picture[i] DH chases the bear out the back of the china shop, turns as he crashes through the back wall, shouting "Don't worry-- I'll pay for that later!!"[/i])
He is simply in awe of what I can accomplish by seemingly NEVER even demanding anything. Yoda. That's what he calls me in my element. (Of course, he calls it "That taoist cr@p" otherwise...) His method works better when you are dealing with all bears and don't have time for the set up. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] On the flip side, there is a communication/thinking style (emotive, non-assertive) common in educators that simply doesn't [i]allow[/i] them to really listen to you unless they feel they can "relate" to you or like you. DH figures he can just stomp them out of the way. I figure... I can take a shower later. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] (In other words, [i]yes[/i] it is a little like selling them something. But they can't hear you otherwise.)
All I'm saying is that there is more than one highly effective communication style. But probably only one [i]per person.[/i] My DH's style isn't one I can weild effectively, so I don't try. (And dare I say-- vice versa.)
Now your assuming everyone has the ability, the intellect, the um....[i]flexibility[/i], the [i]ESP[/i] to do that. Your assuming I can hold my breath that long.
But.....EWWWWWWW........I don't want my head that far up.....
Honestly? people respond better to [i]bluntness[/i] and [i]logic[/i] and [i]reason[/i] better than you may imagine. Probably a lot better than when they feel indebted to you. You ought to at least try it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Besides, a lot of chipmunks have tenure. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Clean, Neat, Surgical. Logic. [i]Be the Vulcan.[/i]
Give your hubby a "high five" from me too. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
I don't remember Spock ever saying: "I'll pay for it later." [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Oh, what was it (tapping keyboard) someone posted once:
[b]Be the change you want to see.[/b] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I'd like to see people do what they *should*. [i]Their job.[/i]

Posted on: Thu, 09/14/2006 - 1:37pm
anonymous's picture
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A recap and update:
Last Wed. I found that the school nurse changed the doctor's orders so Reece didn't go to school on Thurs or Friday. On Monday we took him with the intent of staying with him. The school director met us at said she'd like to speak with us. The first thing she said was "I called your doctor and now I they can't talk to me??" she was pretty upset. I had called the doctor's office telling them I didn't want any medical info. given out beyond the doctor's orders for the school. So, I told the school director that I didn't just say she couldn't have access but that nobody could. She calmed down.
Then, she handed us a typwritten letter stating she apologizes for the misunderstanding with the nurses orders and that she called Reece's nurse and confirmed orders and had them typed out. The letter also stated the "accomodations" they've made to keep Reece safe. So, I took that letter up to Reece's nurse to look over before signing it and she said it was great.
Anyway, I had a 2 hour appt. with Reece's Allergist and nurse yesterday. (Well, saw the nurse for most of that time and the dr. for about 15 minutes ). We went over all the paperwork and got things very worked out and cleared up.
She rewrote the orders several times because each time she wrote them we found something that was confusing. It's because of the forms they use, lol! (They're going to revise them now thanks to us ) The school director asked me if I'd take a few questions to the nurse/doctor so the nurse and doctor answered those too.
One thing that bothered me is the nurse assumed I was "on guard" and that I was overbearing to the school which is not the case at all. I told her for every one of those "accomodations" I've had to fight but it only got that way after being told "NO" for everything. That sort of bothered me but I didn't let it get me stressed, kwim?
Oh, this nurse isn't the one who has been dealing with the school but she and the other nurse and the doctor had a meeting about Reece's case prior to our appt.
We got the orders clear and I think the school is going to feel a lot better with everything. What was tripping everyone up was the word "symptoms" and "anaphylactic symptoms". Plus their form was very confusing! Even the nurse got confused at one point and said "Wow, even I'm confused!!".
So, the orders are:
If facial hives or facial swelling develop OR ingestion/contact (with any nuts or "may contain traces" of nuts is suspected or known:
Administer Benadryl 3.5 tsp
Observe patient closely (I'm supposed to tell them this means having an adult sit with Reece and watching him the entire time)
Administer Epi Pen if further *symptoms occur
Call 9-1-1- and transport to ER
*symptoms:
Itching and swelling of the lips, tongue or mouth
Hives, itchy rash, and or swelling about face or extremities
Itching and or sense of tightness in the throat, hoarseness, hacking cough
Nausea, abdominal cramps, vomiting and or diarrhea
Shortness of breath, repetive coughing and or wheezing
"Thready pulse", passing out, feeling impending doom
I think if the school gets confused about anything it will be this part: "If facial hives or facial swelling develop"..... I need to let them know that means if he breaks out in hives but they have no idea if he's eaten or been around nuts. (Meaning not suspected or known)
The questions from the school were good questions. (I understand they had a meeting and these questions were asked in the meeting) One was if they give Reece the Epi and he didn;t really need it what would happen. The answer is that there may be no effect, he may feel antsy, increased heart rate. Another question they asked is if the give him the Epi and 911 arrives and they say he's fine should they still call us to pick him up. Umm. . . **** yes Doctor's order was nicer.. he said "Yes, Epi can wear off and symptoms may return". Normally 9-1-1 would transport to an ER anyway. Another good one was that if Reece is out in the yard or at PE and gets shortness of breath could they try the inhaler first (due to his asthma). The doctor answered yes as long and he hasn't ingested any nuts.
They asked a few more questions but those were the good ones, I thought.
I can tell the school director has been given some direction in how she's handling things because things are so formal now. Letters, signatures and etc. Also, we have our 504 meeting on Monday afternoon.
Yesterday morning before the doctor's appt. I had a meeting with my friend's friend who knows school systems and 504's inside and out. (The one with all the degrees that I mentioned earlier in another post). She spent an hour with me going over the paperwork and etc. She gave me some good points for the 504 meeting (one thing she suggested is state that I want to be present for all the meetings and training classes concerning Reece's allergies and etc. I had thought of that too and had written it down in my journal I'm keeping. I was glad she mentioned it. Made me feel like I was on the right track. ) She said there's no way they're going to deny the 504. (I'm worried they might as I've read a lot of schools try that) She said it's in the school's best interest to have one on file for liability reasons (both sides) so hopefully she's right.
I have all my paperwork lined up and ready to go and so I'm ready for the meeting.
I want to talk with the school director about the doctor's orders (that I got yesterday) so that she fully understands them. (Since everything has been so difficult with this school it wouldn't surprise me if there is still some confusion about something). Plus there are some things I'm supposed to tell them. I want to set up a meeting with the staff so we can all go over it together. Oh, the woman (school 504 guru) I spoke with yesterday told me to always find out who "We all had training" or "We all had a meeting" is. She said I should always be told who's in the meetings.
Anyway, we'll see what happens with that but for now I'm feeling much better about everything. I can tell the Special Ed director is involved in our case now and Monday's meeting will be a making or breaking point, I'm sure.
and after thinking about things:
When I got to the Allergist's office yesterday we had a new nurse. One we've never met before and she took it upon herself to reassure me she was familiar with Reece's case and that she had a meeting with Linda (our regular nurse and the one who has been dealing with the school) and the doctor before our appt.
So, we got into the exam room and she sat down and pulled out her file so I stood next to her and had mine out. She said she had some signed papers for the school and that we needed to discuss everything. I told her I had a list of quetions from the school too when she had a chance and she told me we'd get to that and I said that's fine. She then said she needed to go over recent health issues first and I said that's good. She then told me "why don't you calm down and have a seat". WTH? I was calm as I had just gotten out of that meeting with the 504 guru. I was very calm, actually. So, I told her I was fine and she said "ok". Then we went through Reece's current issues and then started on the paperwork for the school. That's when she told me that she was impressed with the accomodations the school has made and I told her they were great and working out well that it's the treatment we're all confused about. She then said that I need to be not so directive in dealing with the school. That I need to basically "back off" but she didn't say it that way. I told her that the list of accomodations came about because I had to fight for every single item on that list. I can't remember what she said exactly but overall she was trying to tell me that you catch more flies with honey. I let it slide as I mentioned in the other post.
Anyway, the doctor came in and he was not his normal self. He's normally very friendly, smiling and just super talkative. I was lucky to get two words out of him. He asked me questions that he's asked me before and I even had to remind him of details of things he has told me. It was pretty odd. He then bent down to exam my ds and to break the ice I asked him if he had been on vacation recently. (he was super tan) He barely looked at me and said "no". I said "oh". Then he said "Why?" I said "You're tan" and she said "Oh, I went to San Diego with my wife" and I said "that will do it then".
Anyway, he was very, very reserved and seemed critical of me and I felt it.
So, just now as I was mopping the floor I put it all together. The school nurse spoke w/the doctor. I'm sure she wanted to clear her name on "changing the orders". (One of the first things the nurse at the office said was "we need to discuss the orders and talk about the confusion" to which I said "that would be great!").
Anyway, another thing the nurse (at the office) asked me is if I've been on the FAN website. I said I have. She "I thought so after seeing your letter to to the doctor and everything". She then said it's great that I'm getting so much information and then she said something else about how I'm taking it all to the school. That gave me an odd feeling too.
I did type of a questionairre to have the doctor fill out and his nurse did it and then he signed it so that's good.
But, I can't help but be uneasy about what's going on that I don't know about. I really am wondering what will happen in Monday's meeting.
I wonder if the doctor gave out any med info to the school nurse? Even if he did (not sure if that's legal or not per HIPPA laws and I think not. I have NEVER signed a release of any sort)Even if he did nothing would change as far as Reece's allergies and meds and treatment protocol but there's something I can't put my finger on.
Maybe I'm just expecting things to take a turn for the worse again since that's how it has been going from day one. Or maybe the school is going to deny the 504.
The 504 guru told me they can't deny it (because ds qualifies without a doubt) but I bet they try. I asked her what to do if they say he's inelligible and she said to tell them to prove it because he does and she said just go armed w/my info. She said if they continue to deny them then to stand up and say "I see we're going to have to take this to a higher level".
I did feel the entire time that it was odd Linda (our usual nurse) wasn't handling things. Towards the end of the appt. she poked her head in and said "Hi, how are you?" and I said I was good and thanked her for everything.
Oh, also at the end of the appt. the nurse (not Linda) went on to tell me how she deals with difficult situations and how being nice gets more done. (She have me an example of how she's done it in the past" WTH?
I wonder what the school or school nurse has said? Yes, I have fought and hard to make the school comply to keep Reece safe. I haven't asked for any out of this world accomodations. However, the school is acting like everything that has been done is their idea (and have tried to say that to me too!) and in the most recent letter there are things about how they've been working with me from day one. Yeah right
So, who knows what's going to happen on Monday.
I'm so sick of all of this! While we've made great strides there's still a lot unresolved.
I'm starting to realize it has been dumb of me to have everything be a one on one coversation with the school director. Only once was there ever another party in the room. I KNOW she's not looking out for our/ds' best interest. That has been apparent from day one.
With that said I need to go over the doctor's most recent (and much clearer) doctors orders with the school. I don't feel that I should do that soley w/the school director. It seems anytime things go from me to her they get lost once they leave the room or confused or something. I think I should make sure the school nurse is involved in this conversation, don't you? Of course I could just hand the paperwork to the school director but there are some things I want to make sure are clear with her so that she relays it correctly to the staff/teachers and etc. I wonder if I should wait till Monday's appt. and just keep ds out of school until then?
Oh as far as the side convos about being overly sweet or sweet in general to get what you (general you) want I can see that to a point but I can also see being assertive when it's necessary. If I hadn't asserted in way my ds would be in a classroom sitting next to "Janey" eating her PB& J everyday because "That's a staple of the Kindergarten diet and they in no way can take that from her". Also, he wouldn't be able to have his epis and they'd be using the communal hand washing buckets.
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