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Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:29am
MommaBear's picture
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Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]MB - None that he admits to here [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Since I do have a child in elementary (though not pa) I will answer your question. I expect a staff member to have first aid training - and be available.
I expect them to have the sense to use gloves when treating my child (not latex if either are allergic).
I expect them to call me and if necessary to call 9-1-1 and my experience has been that regarding ambulances they tend to err on the side of caution - which is what I prefer.
I also expect them to have any student's medicine readily available (especially though not solely allergy meds.)[/b]
Have you come across this thread?:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000991.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000991.html[/url]
Aside from "first aid training", I am wondering what experience, education, and licensure will facilitate the fullfillment of such "expectations"? Is this a "delegation" issue?
MommaBear
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:47am
Gail W's picture
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Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook:
[b] "I didn't know that we were speaking about liability in this thread. I didn't know that that was the *issue* of this thread. I thought the *issue* of this thread was comparing how schools call themselves "gun free" "drug free" and why the he** they can't also call themselves "peanut free". I understand where liability would enter into schools calling themselves any of these things, but I didn't think it was part and parcel of me having to understand liability (and my son's school's liability should something happen to him at school PA related) to participate in the discussion.
And yes, after reading many posts after my last one, where I was confused about liability NOW, I still am." [/b]
Yes, it is extremely confusing... the liability issue. Here, in the US, I believe it is impossible to talk about any one topic without discussing the issues such as liability, policy, law, licensing, full-time school nurses, etc. They ALL come into play. (BTW, this is why *I* personally get "irritated" when you re-direct me to another thread. If I try to catagorize and compartmentalize each topic as you ask me to do, then I can't be a part of the discussion.)
[b] "School board districts in the Province of Ontario give the PA child the *right* to a "peanut free" classroom." [/b]
I don't believe that the law is clear on this for US citizens.
[b] "But there are no point by point written guidelines for a school to follow to ensure the safety of the PA child. There are no point by point written guidelines on how to run a peanut free classroom." [/b]
This is what I helped create in our district. Our IHP for Mariah is a point-by-point document with the explicit goal of pin pointing what precautions the school will take to ensure Mariah's safety. It is legally binding with tons of lilability for the school.
[b] "I had never seen a school with written guidelines. The only written guidelines I have seen that are comprehensive..." [/b]
I don't know if mine would be useful (being US), but I've offered my plan to members here often. I'm not by any means claiming that it is the best and it certainly has some limitations. I always appreciate feedback on it...
[b] "But again, that does not show the school point by point how to effectively have a peanut free classroom." [/b]
Why would you speculate the reason for this is????? My personal opinion is because they [b]can't [/b]if they use the term "peanut free". It is impossible, so they don't. I am more comfortable having our point by point IHP showing what the school WILL do to protect my dd. It appears far more effective than pursuing the whole "peanut free" label w/ my school.
[b] "I know that Jesse's written school plan is not considered a legally binding document. I know the steps that I would need to take to have it considered one only to also know that the school board's lawyers would NEVER sign it." [/b]
In my opinion, that is why your plan doesn't work (because it is not legally binding). My IHP [b]is [/b]a legally binding document. It has the approval of my school board, and the signatures of my pricipal, my school counselor, my teacher and (most importantly IMO) my full-time licensed school nurse. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[b] "I still think that my raising the topic of liability veered off from the original topic of drugs/guns/peanuts in the schools, but again, as I posted in my original post in this thread, I think I was kinda confused by it all anyway." [/b]
I absolutely disagree. It is impossible for me to talk about one without the other. They are all interconnected to me. I want to show my respect to you be not veering, but my doing so would eliminate me from the discussion. So I am forced to make the choice of veering (and re-directed by you) or bowing out of the discussion.
Cindy, I absolutely want you to be a part of this discussion (all discussions for that matter). But I would like to be a part of discussions too... and the only way that I can do that is by (your definition) "veering". Please "allow" me to "veer".... otherwise I can't participate.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Gail

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:58am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Eric,
peanut-safe? sounds like a safe place for peanuts to me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
I'm not a lot older than you, and we had a part-time nurse at my elementary school, but I doubt if many teachers actually had first aid training - though some gym teachers did.
As for pa kids/parents thinking its safe - we actually did have to deal with that situation when my older kids were in elementary. There was a pa child and the mom wanted peanut-free. I was actually involved in some of the meetings and both the parent and vice-principal actually expected to have a literally peanut-free school. I named 5 products and asked anyone to tell me which were allowed in a peanut-free school. (They only got the Nestle bar right.)
MommaBear, I'm actually rushed, but I will check out your link later.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:09am
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]Eric,
peanut-safe? sounds like a safe place for peanuts to me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img][/b]
That's true.... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Actually, I guess I don't really care what it's called... the name makes no difference.. we could call it anything we want - as long as we keep the peanuts out of the classroom with the PA child (assuming that is what the PA family wants)
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
The end goal and result is more important than the name.. as a name is just a name.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:22am
Gail W's picture
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Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
The end goal and result is more important than the name.. as a name is just a name.
[/b]
I think you might feel differently about the name if you were held accountable for it... and if your license could be revoked.
This is precisely why our school did, in fact, focus on the "end goal" and "result" and didn't take on a (peanut status) "name".
BTW, I realize you don't even have kids... and I think it's very cool you're discussing this... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:34am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Gail W., thank-you for your very kind response to my last post. I appreciate it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
What I was basically trying to say is that I CANNOT get Jesse's written school plan to be a legally binding document here in Ontario. The school board will NOT sign off on it. It's not because it does not adhere to school board policy re anaphylaxis. It does. Each and every point. However, I have been advised by my lawyer that the school would only consider Jesse's written plan "guidelines" (and actually then they're guidelines on how to run a peanut free classroom. He did tell me the procedures I would have to go through to get the written school plan to be *considered* as a legally binding document (quite a bit of paperwork and bureaucracy) only to have the school board REFUSE outright to sign the plan in the end. Not because it doesn't adhere to school board policy but because the school board doesn't want to sign off on it because of liability reasons.
I'm not clear if this was taken to the Ontario Human Rights Commission and PA was deemed a hidden disability very clearly for the school boards of this province, if things might not be different.
My written school plan for Jesse is very similar to 504 Plans posted on this board by both rilira and vic. Both of their 504 Plans are legally binding documents because they're 504 Plans. I'm not clear about 504 Plans since I'm not American, but it's my understanding that they're legally binding because there is almost a whole legal process you have to go through to get one implemented and it also adheres somehow to the Americans with Disabilities Act.
We don't have that here.
I know I posted on the board before what my lawyer said the steps were that I would have to take to get the written school plan considered a legally binding document, and again, only to have the school board NOT sign off on it. I'll try to find the information and post it here.
When I speak with the superintendent re liability of the school, I'll also speak with him about the possibility of Jesse's written school plan being considered a legally binding document and see what he has to say about it.
But no, that's not why my plan isn't working. It has worked successfully for three years.
Do you understand what I'm saying? It is virtually impossible for me to get the school board to sign off on the written school plan even though it adheres to written school board policy re anaphylaxis. That just does NOT happen here in Ontario (and I suspect anywhere in Canada). So that's definitely not why the plan isn't working this year.
I'll see if I can pull off what my lawyer told me the steps would be. These things are always worth a try even if your lawyer has told you very clearly that it would be a waste of your time.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:50am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] I think you might feel differently about the name if you were held accountable for it... and if your license could be revoked.
[/b]
My candy guru license? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I am glad you like having me post on this, as since I don't even have kids I am not as aware of schools as most of you are soI am learning a lot too. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:55am
Gail W's picture
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Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Just asking you, Cindy (from curious Gail ) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] :
Do you think that now, after this disucssion and others, that (for [b] Americans [/b])
~ liability is a myth that only the ignorant buy into?
or that
~ you'd have to be a complete moron to think litterally about the term "peanut free"?
Gail

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 2:07am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]~ you'd have to be a complete moron to think litterally about the term "peanut free"?[/b]
Hi Gail,
hmm.. shouldn't this type of talk be moved to the rudeness thread?? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] My rudeness thread has lots of cookie recipes.. it needs more [i]moronic[/i]-type talk! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Anyway.....
[i]My press secretary calls me a moron. I have friends who are morons[/i] - Canadian PM Jean Chretien
(sorry.. couldn't resist!) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 07, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 2:08am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Gail, I did respond, and it hasn't shown up yet. Hmm..... I'll hit my back button and see if I can retrieve the post. At any rate, I did say that I would post what my lawyer had said I would have to do to get Jesse's written school plan to be considered a legally binding document. Of course, this makes little sense if I can't find my last post. However, here is what he said:-
No, in it's present form it's legally worthless and not binding. If anything is would only be considered a guideline.
OR, IF IT IS
NOT A LEGALLY BINDING DOCUMENT IN IT'S PRESENT FORM, WHICH I DOUBT IT IS,
BECAUSE THERE ARE NO SIGNATURES, DATES, ETC., THEN HOW DO I GET IT TO BECOME
ONE?
You would have to get it into a "memorandum of understanding" format, stating all the terms and consequences of the agreement. It would then have to be signed by two school board representatives who actually have signing authority along with yourself, and witnessed by two independent witnesses. The document would then have to be notarized by a Notary Public or a Commissioner for taking oaths. I can assure you that without even asking, your school board would NOT sign such a document.
I'll try to find my previous post to you, Gail W. and perhaps it will show up eventually.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

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