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Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 4:24am
Gail W's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Link to thread listing a
Link entitled: "A School Board's View" (Edmonton)
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001014.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001014.html[/url]
Link to thread listing a
Link entitled: "A Principal's View" (Calgary)
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001013.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001013.html[/url] [/b]
Hope everyone reads these links. Very interesting. Looking forward to reading everyone's comments about them.
Gail

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 8:50am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Hope everyone reads these links. Very interesting. Looking forward to reading everyone's comments about them.
[/b]
Hi Gail,
The principal in those links seemed to be worried about liability issues. The following Health Canada document should reassure him regarding his concerns.
"Anaphylaxis - A Handbook for School Boards" (From the Health Canada's Canadian School Boards Association)
[url="http://www.safe4kids.ca/content/schools/anaphylaxis_eng.pdf"]http://www.safe4kids.ca/content/schools/anaphylaxis_eng.pdf[/url]
[i][b]There is no legal obligation to eliminate all risk. To date, the courts (in Canada) have refused to accept the general proposition that a school board is an "insurer" of all risks potentially confronting its students.[/b] Rather, a school board's duty is to exercise reasonable care and skill to see that its students are kept reasonably safe. Numerous cases interpreting the provincial human rights legislation and s. 15 of the Charter (Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the Canadian Constitution) have applied a roughly analgous standard holding that aside form any duties prescribed by other legislation, school boards have an obligation to make reasonable efforts to accomodate students with medical disabilities. The standard of accomodation is not one of perfection but of reasonableness short of undue hardship. No school board should ever assume responsibility for providing a completely allergen free environment.[/i]
This suggests to me that the schools in Canada would not be liable should a child have an allergic reaction at the school assuming the school was taking [b]reasonable efforts[/b] to keep the child safe as [b]the courts have refused to accept the general proposition that a school board is an "insurer" of all risks potentially confronting its students[/b]
So I believe even if a school did not permit peanuts in the classroom (peanut ban) they are not accepting any liability as stated in the above document [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 15, 2003).]

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 9:26am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik: (quote from article in original post)
[b] Rather, a school board's duty is to exercise reasonable care and skill to see that its students are kept reasonably safe. [/b]
would "reasonable care and skill" be something that is "realistically achievable" and "enforceable"? ooooooooooooo it's that "lip service" thing again?
At least do you thing one would be able to put the idea into literary form? LOL.
ie: a "written policy"??

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 9:55am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Excellent post Eric. It [b]proves[/b] that Canadian schools have the right to ban a food [b]if[/b] they feel it is in the best interest of the student. And Candians, if I felt it was necessary I'd be showing that to the principal.
MommaBear, it is definitely do-able. However, if a parent thinks they can just walk in to the school with a written plan, have the principal say "Oh, great idea, let's do it" then walk out and expect it will be done, they will probably end up with lip-service.
A peanut-ban is an on-going work of art. Actually, it's probably more like a piece of machinery, always in need of fine tuning. And (the pa parent) always has to be listening closely for the tell-tale signs of the machine being in need of major (or minor) repairs.
How do you like that analogy [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 11:27am
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Holy long thread! And me jumping in late - how rude, lol!
Anyhoo, I have a question for everyone regarding this American vs. Canadian thing. I think there're very valid distinctions between our countries and therefore a big difference in the willingness to accomodate from our different school systems.
Which distinctions, you ask?
American = individualism
Canadian = collectivism
Americans = don't tell me what to do.
Canadians = we let our government run our health care system; need I say more? We pretty much feel OK with folks telling us what to do.
There are also definite (as you can see in almost all these debates) differences in fear of litigiousness, as well. Canadians have inquests - they don't launch class action lawsuits (mostly).
I am thinking back to the thread (was it arachide's?) about standarized protocols for peanut allergic students. After much reading and research into the difference between the American and Canadian psyche, I realized that having a North American protocol in place won't work. It needs to be an American and a Canadian protocol - just like Anaphylaxis Canada (who are fine with bans) and FAAN (who don't promote bans) are different in their respective approaches.
Remember we have to make labelling distinctions between our countries? I think we should make schooling distinctions as well - because there is no way our countries are ever going to agree on a standard protocol, so I feel it's a dead-end to even try to come up with one.
Now, is this up for debate or not? If so, where should I start the thread? And of course, it goes without saying that by "American vs. Canadian" I don't mean to be combative (nor am I encouraging a debate which includes "better thans"), I am just recognizing the unique qualities that each of our cultures brings to the debate table.
I think a standard protocol for the US would be dandy, but I don't think the Canadian one would necessarily fit an American school. So, we should scrap the North American protocol and concentrate on our own country's protocol. Agree? Disagree?
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
P.S. Sociological issues have always fascinated me, and these debate threads are almost a sinful indulgence, lol!

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 12:13pm
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Hi Carolyn
More fundamentally, our legal system is different, I believe. Our tort law (for liability) is based on British common law, which means that rulings are based on precedent. The term "reasonable" is used throughout and is the norm. Cases are often judged against what can be reasonably expected, not what is defined in clear legislation.
It is my impression that the American legal system is much more statute driven - ie, there is a clear law defining what can and can't be done.
Just my impression...
deb

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 12:19pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by DebO:
[b]It is my impression that the American legal system is much more statute driven - ie, there is a clear law defining what can and can't be done.[/b]
Which may be why Americans such as Gail, Momma Bear, etc are having difficulty believing that we can actually have successful peanut bans in classrooms here in Ontario without the school being totally liable to keep it 100% peanut-free at every moment.

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 12:53pm
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]
MommaBear, it is definitely do-able. However, if a parent thinks they can just walk in to the school with a written plan, have the principal say "Oh, great idea, let's do it" then walk out and expect it will be done, they will probably end up with lip-service.[/b]
One way to get some fathers involved.........
Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]
A peanut-ban is an on-going work of art. Actually, it's probably more like a piece of machinery, always in need of fine tuning. And (the pa parent) always has to be listening closely for the tell-tale signs of the machine being in need of major (or minor) repairs.[/B
How do you like that analogy [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
ummmmmmmmm..... Possibly known as [b]"Quality Improvement?"[/b](Yeah, I love my profession. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img])
In healthcare circles, although we welcome innovation, continuous improvement and methods of quality assurance.................
.....we [i]still[/i] have certain [b]expectations[/b]. [i]Fullfilling them is not an option.[/i] It is a [b]necessity[/b].
I think I will do my nails. A [i]sassy[/i] tangarine seems in order. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: This post not intended as advice in any manner or form. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 12:59pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] I think I will do my nails. A [i]sassy[/i] tangarine seems in order. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b]
Sassy tangerine? What happened to red?

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 1:07pm
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Sassy tangerine? What happened to red?[/b]
[i]Quality Improvement.[/i]

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 1:09pm
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[url="http://www.darrenduncan.net/d/voices/voices_v1_n4/mosaic.html"]http://www.darrenduncan.net/d/voices/voices_v1_n4/mosaic.html[/url]
Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post.

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 1:18pm
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Quote:Originally posted by DebO:
[b]
More fundamentally, our legal system is different, I believe. Our tort law (for liability) is based on British common law, which means that rulings are based on precedent. The term "reasonable" is used throughout and is the norm. Cases are often judged against what can be reasonably expected, not what is defined in clear legislation.
It is my impression that the American legal system is much more statute driven - ie, there is a clear law defining what can and can't be done.
Just my impression...
deb[/b]
[url="http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/2000/Dec00/Mullins.htm"]http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/2000/Dec00/Mullins.htm[/url]
Link to article entitled: "Why America is not "like America": debunking myths of the American legal system."
By Gerard Mullins
Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post.

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 1:26pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Which distinctions, you ask?
American = individualism
Canadian = collectivism
Americans = don't tell me what to do.
Canadians = we let our government run our health care system; need I say more? We pretty much feel OK with folks telling us what to do.
There are also definite (as you can see in almost all these debates) differences in fear of litigiousness, as well. Canadians have inquests - they don't launch class action lawsuits (mostly).
[/b]
Hi Carolyn..
Good points.. yes.. I agree you most likely could not have the same protocols for our two different countries, as Canada and the USA are very differnt societies. One solution does not fit all.

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 1:31pm
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Quote:Originally posted by DebO:
[b]It is my impression that the American legal system is much more statute driven - ie, there is a clear law defining what can and can't be done.
Just my impression...
deb[/b]
[i]really?[/i]
[url="http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Laws_Order_draft/laws_order_intermezzo.htm"]http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Laws_Order_draft/laws_order_intermezzo.htm[/url]
Link to article entitled:
[b]"Intermezzo: The American Legal System in Brief"[/b]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post.

Posted on: Thu, 05/15/2003 - 2:49pm
DebO's picture
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My point was not that there is no origin in British Common law in the US, but rather that in the US you seem to have more statutes whereas in Canada many more things sem to be left to common law.
deb

Posted on: Fri, 05/16/2003 - 2:55am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

MommaBear, maybe your expectations are unreasonable. Maybe that's why you don't see it as acceptable, because what you want is a guarantee and nobody can give you that.
When I went in to the hospital several years ago I requested to speak with someone regarding food. I figured they could handle the peanut allergy OK (after all, we're talking about a hospital) but I wasn't sure if they were prepared to feed someone with a sesame seed allergy.
Well guess what? We didn't even get through discussing the *trace amount of peanut* problem before she said that since I wouldn't be in the hospital long, why didn't I just bring my own food.
I guess you're lucky - you can home school - but home surgery sounds a little risky [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/16/2003 - 4:36am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]Maybe that's why you don't see it as acceptable, because what you want is a guarantee and nobody can give you that.[/b]
That's true... the school plan at Anna Marie's school may be an acceptable plan to restrict peanuts from the classroom to many people such as myself and others in Ontario who have peanut bans in their classroom, but if you want an absolute guarantee your only option would be to home school as there are no absolute guarantees.
Many of us are not in a position to home school, so plans like one at Anna Marie's schol are the best option we have. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/16/2003 - 5:34am
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Hi erik
Just to add to your post - Not only are most of us not in a position to homeschool, but homeschooling should be a personal choice. It should not be something we are forced to do because public schools won't accomodate a child's safety. This has always been the cornerstone of Chris Papkee's PA philosophy with regard to schools - homeschool if you want, but do not do it because you are forced to. Instead, fight to have the school make accomodations for PA kids, to pave the way for lasting changes.
I "paved" the way for Cayley's preschool, but fortunately for me, someone else had already paved the way for us by the time she hit kindergarten.
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/16/2003 - 7:01am
Gail W's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]MommaBear, maybe your expectations are unreasonable. Maybe that's why you don't see it as acceptable, because what you want is a guarantee and nobody can give you that.
[/b]
I know this was asked to MommBear, but I'd like to share my thoughts on it...
I don't really need a "peanut free" [b]guarantee [/b]. I understand that in a litteral sense this cannot be guaranteed. But what I need is a guarantee that certain procedures will be strickly followed.
This is an important distinction. "Peanut free", as we've all stated many times, is the [i]goal [/i]. For the most part, "peanut free" is evaluated by whether or not a reaction occurs. It's an outcome that tells you [i]to some degree [/i], if your procedures are effective.
Mariah had a year without written procedures in a "peanut free" classroom that worked successfully because she didn't have any reactions. New "peanut free" classroom the following year was unsucessful because she had 8 reactions in 3 months.
Why wasn't it working any more? The school and we agreed that having this number of reactions was not acceptable. I pushed for formalized procedures. I needed to know detailed information about how specific situations would be handled. I need it clearly stated in writing, with each person's role delineated. I wanted these procedures claimed as job responsibilites with accountability.
When Mariah has an allergic reaction at school we meet with the staff to figure out what happened. If Mariah had an allergic reaction resulting from a staff person not preforming a procedural duty, I would tend to look at that as negligence. If she had an allergic reaction when all procedures were followed, well that happens too. We've all been there and know that you can do everything you know to do and still have a reaction. We can't always find the source of the allergen... no "guarantee" about that.
So I look for a guarantee of procedures, not of "peanut free". Does that make sense?

Posted on: Fri, 05/16/2003 - 10:52am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]So I look for a guarantee of procedures, not of "peanut free". Does that make sense?
[/b]
Yes, it makes total sense. Any school can say "peanut-free" but if they don't follow any procedures it means nothing. On that, I think everyone agrees with you.
As Cayley's Mom mentioned, her daughter's school has these procedures so her school would be an example of what you are looking for.
Only in Canada? Pity.
(hehe.. just copying that old Red Rose tv commercial! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] )

Posted on: Fri, 05/16/2003 - 11:08am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] I know this was asked to MommBear, but I'd like to share my thoughts on it...
I don't really need a "peanut free" [b]guarantee [/b]. I understand that in a litteral sense this cannot be guaranteed. But what I need is a guarantee that certain procedures will be strickly followed.
This is an important distinction. "Peanut free", as we've all stated many times, is the [i]goal [/i]. For the most part, "peanut free" is evaluated by whether or not a reaction occurs. It's an outcome that tells you [i]to some degree [/i], if your procedures are effective.
Mariah had a year without written procedures in a "peanut free" classroom that worked successfully because she didn't have any reactions. New "peanut free" classroom the following year was unsucessful because she had 8 reactions in 3 months.
Why wasn't it working any more? The school and we agreed that having this number of reactions was not acceptable. I pushed for formalized procedures. I needed to know detailed information about how specific situations would be handled. I need it clearly stated in writing, with each person's role delineated. I wanted these procedures claimed as job responsibilites with accountability.
When Mariah has an allergic reaction at school we meet with the staff to figure out what happened. If Mariah had an allergic reaction resulting from a staff person not preforming a procedural duty, I would tend to look at that as negligence. If she had an allergic reaction when all procedures were followed, well that happens too. We've all been there and know that you can do everything you know to do and still have a reaction. We can't always find the source of the allergen... no "guarantee" about that.
So I look for a guarantee of procedures, not of "peanut free". Does that make sense?
[/b]
[i]Clapping loudly[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/16/2003 - 11:14am
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]MommaBear, maybe your expectations are unreasonable. Maybe that's why you don't see it as acceptable, because what you want is a guarantee and nobody can give you that.
[/b]
Hardly. (with regards to expectations). I may have [b]High Expectations[/b], but never [b] Unreasonable [/b].
My children are worth it.
(So am I. Ask Hubby.)
I liked Gail's post. Re: "guarantees"
I deal with [i]literally[/i] hundreds (maybe thousands) of "High Expectations" Professionally.
Guess What? Provided appropriate education, training, and [i]motivation[/i]..........
not hard to meet. IMH[b]P[/b]O.
___________________________________
Eric...................
I am beginning to think you are suffering from [b]"USA" Envy.[/b]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/16/2003 - 11:26am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Eric...................
I am beginning to think you are suffering from "USA" Envy.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[/b]
Using my reverse logic I would think you are envious of the success that we have in Canada with peanut bans in classrooms [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/16/2003 - 11:29am
erik's picture
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Quote:originally posted by Gail
[b]I liked Gail's post. Re: "guarantees"[/b]
We all liked that post - no disagreement there.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Hardly. (with regards to expectations). I may have High Expectations, but never Unreasonable.
My children are worth it.[/b]
So why would none of the hundreds of classrooms in Ontario that are peanut-free be acceptable to you? They seem acceptable to those of us here in Canada.. as an example:
Quote:originally posted by Cayley's Mom
[b]I "paved" the way for Cayley's preschool, but fortunately for me, someone else had already paved the way for us by the time she hit kindergarten.[/b]
It seems we don't have much home schooling here, as the government of Ontario provides schools that are safe for PA individuals.
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 16, 2003).]

Posted on: Sat, 05/17/2003 - 11:26pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Hardly. (with regards to expectations). I may have [b]High Expectations[/b], but never [b] Unreasonable [/b].
My children are worth it.
[/b]
MommaBear, I have been extremely busy this weekend (visitor from Ireland just arrived) and believe it or not, I have actually been concerned that i may have unintentionally offended you with my post. I'm glad to see that it appears I didn't....and the debate goes on [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
It does [b]sound[/b] like you expect to receive a guarantee of peanut free. If what you expect is a guarantee that procedures will be followed, and that the procedures are actually doable, then I agree you are not being unreasonable. From posts I've read today it sounds like you didn't have the co-operation of staff to even work with you to set up appropriate procedures.
And I agree with you that epi-ens should [b]not[/b] be kept locked up. No time to hunt for who has the key, where is the key, oops dropped the key.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
I deal with [i]literally[/i] hundreds (maybe thousands) of "High Expectations" Professionally.
Guess What? Provided appropriate education, training, and [i]motivation[/i]..........
not hard to meet. IMH[b]P[/b]O.
[/b]
If you are talking about education, training, and motivation in staff I agree. The problem is that in a school there is also the other students and parents.
Assuming you have co-operative staff, agree on where to keep meds, agree on appropriate training, feel the staff does have the motivation (i.e. they truly care about their students and are willing to do whatever is necessary to keep them alive), procedures and protocols are agreed on, set up, and followed, there is [b]still a risk that peanuts will be in the area[/b].
No school can [b]guarantee[/b] that every student and every parent will do what they should.

Posted on: Sun, 05/18/2003 - 1:53am
Gail W's picture
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Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] Quote:
If you are talking about education, training, and motivation in staff I agree. The problem is that in a school there is also the other students and parents.
Assuming you have co-operative staff, agree on where to keep meds, agree on appropriate training, feel the staff does have the motivation (i.e. they truly care about their students and are willing to do whatever is necessary to keep them alive), procedures and protocols are agreed on, set up, and followed, there is still a risk that peanuts will be in the area.
No school can guarantee that every student and every parent will do what they should.[/b]
AnnaMarie, I completely agree. This is pretty much the situation that I experienced.
No guarantees about students/parents actions (in large part because peanuts are not a controlled substance). This is precisely why I prefer that the focus is placed on the specific protocals and prevention that the school [b]will [/b] undertake (in writing, please)and [b]will [/b]guarantee.

Posted on: Sun, 05/18/2003 - 2:16am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]This is precisely why I prefer that the focus is placed on the specific protocals and prevention that the school will undertake (in writing, please)and will guarantee. [/b]
Welcome back Gail,
Yes, that is the important point in that if the school will simply send home a letter to parents saying "no peanuts allowed" and that's it, then it will be a failure. There has to be a written plan in place.
A label means nothing (unless it is an ingredient label on a Canadian Kit Kat bar!) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 05/18/2003 - 11:47am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]A peanut-ban is an on-going work of art. Actually, it's probably more like a piece of machinery, always in need of fine tuning. And (the pa parent) always has to be listening closely for the tell-tale signs of the machine being in need of major (or minor) repairs.
[/b]
Many times when repairing a piece of machinery.............
I have decided to "junk it".
LOL.
Here's to hoping listening for "tell tale signs" doesn't reveal an ambulance siren.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Sun, 05/18/2003 - 4:37pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]A peanut-ban is an on-going work of art. Actually, it's probably more like a piece of machinery, always in need of fine tuning. And (the pa parent) always has to be listening closely for the tell-tale signs of the machine being in need of major (or minor) repairs.[/b]
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Many times when repairing a piece of machinery.............
I have decided to "junk it".
Here's to hoping listening for "tell tale signs" doesn't reveal an ambulance siren.
[/b]
My interpretation of these comments is that when trying to repair a piece of machinery (peanut ban), you would decide to junk it (peanut ban).
And for those who try to repair the machinery (peanut ban), you hope the next sound won't be an ambulance siren (peanut reaction).
So my understanding of these comments is that a peanut allergy reaction is more likely to occur in a classroom that attempts to ban peanut products, than it is in a classroom that allows peanut products. And there's no point monitoring the peanut ban for problems as this may lead to an ambulance siren.
Perhaps my critical thinking skills are impaired as it is 2:30 am and I've been eating lots of merlot topped waffles, but maybe someone can explain this bit of logic to me? I hear River singing doo do doo do doo dooo (no, that's not the Canadian national anthem [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] )
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 19, 2003).]

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 12:53am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Many times when repairing a piece of machinery.............
I have decided to "junk it".
LOL.
Here's to hoping listening for "tell tale signs" doesn't reveal an ambulance siren.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.
[/b]
Do you junk it if all it actually needs is to tighten a screw? Some things are worth keeping and repairing. Like my son's nose? Repaired that many times lol.
And, no, an ambulance siren isn't a tell-tale sign. Don't even ask for a definition, you're on your own for that one.
How about explaining [b]exactly[/b] what a school could do that you would be happy with?

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 4:32am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]
How about explaining [b]exactly[/b] what a school could do that you would be happy with?[/b]
[i]Personally[/i]????
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 19, 2003).]

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 4:37am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] My interpretation of these comments is that when trying to repair a piece of machinery (peanut ban), you would decide to junk it (peanut ban).
And for those who try to repair the machinery (peanut ban), you hope the next sound won't be an ambulance siren (peanut reaction).
So my understanding of these comments is that a peanut allergy reaction is more likely to occur in a classroom that attempts to ban peanut products, than it is in a classroom that allows peanut products. And there's no point monitoring the peanut ban for problems as this may lead to an ambulance siren.
Perhaps my critical thinking skills are impaired as it is 2:30 am and I've been eating lots of merlot topped waffles, but maybe someone can explain this bit of logic to me? I hear River singing doo do doo do doo dooo (no, that's not the Canadian national anthem [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] )
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 19, 2003).][/b]
I see at least your "quoting" abilities are improving. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 10:18am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
[i]Personally[/i]????
[/b]
Personally and [b]specifically[/b]....

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 11:24am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]
How about explaining [b]exactly[/b] what a school could do that you would be happy with?[/b]
#1.....................
I [b]personally[/b] require (where my son is concerned) that there be a
[b]Full-Time-School-Nurse[/b] (RN)
(as I *personally* feel it is critical and pivotal issue)
[url="http://nursing.about.com/library/weekly/aa091201a.htm"]http://nursing.about.com/library/weekly/aa091201a.htm[/url]
[b]preferably certified (CSN):[/b]
[url="http://www.nbcsn.com/pscertification.htm"]http://www.nbcsn.com/pscertification.htm[/url]
[b]preferably holding a Bachelor of Science in Nursing (BSN)or [i]higher[/i][/b]
[url="http://www.campusrn.com/students/article.asp?news_id=892"]http://www.campusrn.com/students/article.asp?news_id=892[/url]
[b]preferably having some type of Critical Care (experience) for at least one year, full time[/b]
[url="http://community.nursingspectrum.com/MagazineArticles/article.cfm?AID=8189"]http://community.nursingspectrum.com/MagazineArticles/article.cfm?AID=8189[/url]
can't help but wish for this [i]preferably[/i]:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000969.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000969.html[/url]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely expressing my own *personal* requirements. I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the links in this post.
*******************************************
Please note:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000967.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000967.html[/url]
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000991.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000991.html[/url]
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001009.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001009.html[/url]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
PS.......shall I continue?
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 19, 2003).]

Posted on: Mon, 05/19/2003 - 11:46am
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Originally posted by MommaBear:
"PS.......shall I continue"
___________________________________
No Thanks!
...........PeanutTrace!

Posted on: Fri, 07/18/2003 - 8:35am
MommaBear's picture
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reraising for Tando.

Posted on: Fri, 07/18/2003 - 8:36am
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reraising for Tando.

Posted on: Wed, 07/30/2003 - 10:47pm
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Ah. A fundamental difference in [i]experience[/i]?
In my profession, It is my understanding that I may be held accountable for things I do not see, and am not aware of when they occur. Especially if there is Policy Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care that indicate what I should be aware of, when I should be aware of it, and a need to be aware of. Or at least approved methodologies for preventing such occurrances.
[b]To the best of my knowledge, the system does not knowingly attempt to "build in" breaches in the wall.[/b]
It has been my experience and has been incorporated into training that I have received, that if I follow such Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care all should go well.
In the event that such does not, despite accurately following Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care, theory indicates that I should be free from liability providing I have an approved methods of verifying such Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care were respected. (Documentation comes first to mind.)
In the event that such does not (go well), especially if there seems to be a pattern, and despite following Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care................
There are methods in place by which re-evaluation of such Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care may be improved and revised to more adequately address specific and general situations.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: This post not intended as advice in any manner or form. It is merely an attempt to relay *personal* thoughts specific to my own *personal* experience and situation.[/b]
reposting to compliment a thread in which "QA" was mentioned. "Quality Assurance".

Posted on: Thu, 07/31/2003 - 7:17am
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Hi Mother Bear,
I know you raised this for me. I just haven't figured out what to say.
T.

Posted on: Thu, 07/31/2003 - 9:01am
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Quote:Originally posted by tando:
[b]Hi Mother Bear,
I know you raised this for me. I just haven't figured out what to say.
T.[/b]
Actually, I raised it for AnnaMarie, since my last post to her in the smokefree/peanutfree et al.... thread was regarding similiar thoughts. I just didn't want to "reinvent the wheel". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 07/31/2003 - 9:17am
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T.,
forgot to add:
I'd be very interested in your thoughts.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 08/28/2003 - 2:32pm
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[url="http://www.msdwc.k12.in.us/ses/ses0598.htm"]http://www.msdwc.k12.in.us/ses/ses0598.htm[/url]
Scrolling down to "Gun Safety"
Interesting.................. defineable [b]and[/b] enforceable?. Thus....... achievable?
Even more Interesting was the mention of "Federal Law".
A visit from the "Town Marshall" to boot.
Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy, content, or currentness of the link in this post.

Posted on: Thu, 08/28/2003 - 11:21pm
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reraising. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 08/29/2003 - 12:34am
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I've heard of some schools use the term PEANUT SAFE instead of peanut free because they feel they can never guarantee its 100% free of peanuts. Perhaps that is a better term?

Posted on: Sat, 08/30/2003 - 1:14am
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Howdy hey. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sat, 12/06/2003 - 1:38am
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reraising to compliment a thread in Media.

Posted on: Sat, 12/06/2003 - 10:49am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

I don't know if this really relates to the topic at hand or not, but I'm going to basically re-post something I posted when I wrote about Jesse freaking out at the Santa Claus Parade here a couple of weeks ago and which I did repeat in conversation to-day with another Mom.
Jesse was extremely anxious and I did get irritated. But when we got home, I went in to talk to him later about what had happened and I said, you know what Jess, if someone had sat on that sidewalk beside me with a loaded gun to my head, I would have freaked out and wanted to move as well.
(Chrikey, if someone sat beside me with a loaded gun to my head, I would have freaked out, frozen, and then run for my life).
Also, in finding out this year, for the first year in five years, that it's actually illegal for the school to check lunches here (that would be cited somewhere in the thread whereby Jesse couldn't go to school for the first two days this year), the principal is allowed to check knapsacks, etc. if he suspects there are drugs or guns in said knapsacks. How are drugs and/or guns any different to my son than peanuts? In fact, peanuts have the potential to be more deadly to my son than a drug that he might not ingest or a gun that might not be pointed at his head. A peanut will leave residue that he can react to (and has).
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Sun, 12/07/2003 - 12:05pm
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[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum9/HTML/000177.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum9/HTML/000177.html[/url]
noticed the response from the airline.
as I indicated..........
[i]no surprises here.[/i]

Posted on: Wed, 12/17/2003 - 6:34am
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reraising in light of the idea of "Peanut/Nut Free Schools" being raised in several threads. Hard to explain, but I think it is relevant. Despite the label, are such "Peanut/Nut Free Schools" possible? If they aren't, then what is the alternative?

Posted on: Wed, 12/17/2003 - 7:00am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Can I go totally wacko here for a minute? I did post a couple of things to-day about Ontario's Ministry of Education and how they can check for guns and drugs but not peanut products.
My wacko part now actually has nothing to do with PA (I think or maybe it does). erik went to school eight years after I did (he began school). So, when he was in JK (which didn't exist where I lived when I was that age), I was in Grade 6. erik never had a peanut free classroom. I do not know how sensitive erik is.
Again wacky part coming in now. Tonight, I go to pick-up children after school, which I do every day. My Mom, we lived two doors from the school, she could watch us enter the school doors. Then, in Grade 7 and 8, ages 12 and 13, we had to go 18 blocks to a different school. I was able to walk or take the streetcar. My sister was driven (that's another story and another *issue*, personal only [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] ). And it was a different day and age. Granted.
I go in after school to-day and have to drop off my donation to the school's pot luck luncheon tomorrow. Interestingly enough, out of all of the parents, the PA parent is chosen to provide not a food, but fruit punch. O K A Y..... Hear from the teacher how Jesse is having difficulty keeping still. Whatever.
I then had left a message for Ember's teacher to call me to-day and she didn't because she's practicing for the big Christmas concert tonight (which I can hear clamouring about and am trying to ignore). Ember had been very upset. They made pomanders last week on Wednesday when her brother had surgery and she had to go to the hospital with me. Her teacher had promised her that she would make one when she returned to school last Thursday.
Thursday, Friday, Monday, Tuesday, I have my daughter coming home in this right wicked mood saying I hate you! Fine. I ask her what is wrong and it gets particularly upsetting last night because we were decorating the Christmas tree which the pomander would have gone on. "Miss L** is a liar" (wonderful language, I know [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] ). I said, Ember, enough, I am calling Miss L**.
So tonight, after school, go up to the teacher, poor dear beautiful woman, and say, Ember is upset with you about something. Well, Ember's teacher made her explain what was wrong rather than me have to. Ember will NOT open her mouth at school for the life of herself. It is very odd. Whatever.
The teacher apologizes and tells Ember (as she's trying to rush out the door to get ready for this evening's concert) that she will make sure she brings the supplies in tomorrow (is that like when my Grade 2 teacher took me in on a Saturday to turn my eggs in the incubator? Hmmm.... compassion and accommodation - that's going to send me off-track).
But I told both children as we were leaving that MY parents and probably only my Mother at that did not go in to the school every night to speak with teachers. They met the teachers ONCE a year! At parents' night! Last night it was about Jesse and how he had been reminded to get a book for a book report due TO-DAY and how he was leaving the school without a book and we had to march back in and speak with the teacher (there is something about their library that is strange).
So, all of this rant for what? Other than to express difficulties I have as a parent that my parents did not have, particularly with school.
Accommodations and compassion. The asthmatic child, if there was one, 35 years ago was seen as the sickly child who couldn't do anything. How can that label apply to 10% (at least) of the school population nowadays? It can't. So, education also. Medical advances. Increase in the number of physical *ailments* (strange word meant to encompass allergies, asthma and other things not quite sure of).
Just like how I ate cookie batter off the beater and didn't develop salmonella. Now we *know* better.
I still stand by, despite my rant, that I feel other children's knapsacks should be checked for food that could KILL or seriously harm my child. The same as a gun or drugs could.
Society has changed quite a bit since I was a kid. For the most part, although sometimes it moves too fast for me, I'd like to think that it's changed for the *good*.
erik, I used you as an example without your permission. My apologies.
But in saying that, I am also wondering how many PA children DIED in schools simply because *accommodations* (I hate that word) were not known to be made.
Yes, my mind has officially left the building [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

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