363 posts / 0 new
Last post
Posted on: Thu, 05/08/2003 - 12:44pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by DebO:
[b]Hi Momma Bear
I meant I did not want to send the thread off tangent since I know you have started other threads about classifying PA as a disability or not and how it compares with other conditions and that is a separate issue ...
now, of course, I have veered off topic anyway!
take care
deb[/b]
Feel free to ask any question. As I still am confused concerning your statement. I veer easily. Habit even. Although I multitask exceptionally well (or so I have been told), I but do have a soft spot for [i]focusing intently[/i].
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/08/2003 - 12:50pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]Seems I've handed off the batton. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]
I find that some battons I can only hand off to similiarly prepared persons. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b](Remind me that I need to buy you a lap top so that I can reach you at all times... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[i]Litterally speaking [/i]that is.... I already realize we communicate telepathically [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/eek.gif[/img] )[/b]
telepathically or phonetically?
Literally speaking. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/08/2003 - 1:01pm
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] telepathically or phonetically?
Literally speaking. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[/b]
I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. You must be using some Jedi mind tricks. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/08/2003 - 1:10pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum22/HTML/001017.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum22/HTML/001017.html[/url]

Posted on: Thu, 05/08/2003 - 1:13pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. You must be using some Jedi mind tricks. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img][/b]
Must be a [i]American[/i] thing. Specifically, [i]midwest[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/08/2003 - 1:20pm
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
Must be a [i]American[/i] thing. Specifically, [i]midwest[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img][/b]
Midwest? Oh, I thought it was a galaxy far far away thing. hmm.. Must have put too much merlot on my frozen waffles tonight.
Well, when I am more awake tomorrow I'll re-read the above postings and try again [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/08/2003 - 1:25pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001007.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001007.html[/url]

Posted on: Thu, 05/08/2003 - 11:58pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

I haven't had time to read all of yesterdays and todays post, so forgive me if my spinning head isn't making sense here, but I have to add this before I forget it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img]
We seem to agree that a peanut doesn't equal a gun. (In a blank-free sort of way). Gun is enforcable by law, peanut isn't.
A peanut also doesn't equal baggy pants. (Again, in a blank-free sort of way). One does no harm if it is not enforced.
But, what about a snowball?????
It is [b]not[/b] against the law to throw a snowball at *nothing*. But yet, most schools will [i]enforce[/i] the snow-ball-free [i]law[/i] that they choose to have on school property.
Snowball probably won't case death, but it [b]can[/b] cause serious injury.
[i]Am I allowed on the Canadian team? Can we be The Tim Horton Honeys?[/i]
[This message has been edited by AnnaMarie (edited May 09, 2003).]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 12:18am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

AnnaMarie:
Are the parents supplying the snowballs?
Do snowballs come in lunches?
Is the act of "throwing a snowball" more or less clearly defined? (even by the layperson?)
Is a "snowball" more or less clearly defined? (even by the layperson?)
What does one wish to accomplish if one throws a snowball at another individual? At "nothing"?
Just a few questions that initially come to mind.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 12:28am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

AnnaMarie,
I'm so glad you are still in here!
I approach the whole discussion from a different angle:
[b]Do our children have the "right" to a "gun-free" and "drug-free" school? [/b]
Yes, to some extent. The government (U.S.A.)has developed very specific laws to protect citizens, and our schools are duty-bound to comply. This is what I see in the gun/drug-free policy statements.
[b]Do our children have the "right" to a peanut-free classroom/school? [/b]
No. Unlike some of our Canadian friends, we do have have this as a "right".
[b] Then what "rights" do our children w/ PA have? [/b]
They have rights provided by the Americans w/ Disabilities Act (ADA), specifically section 504, that states that they have the right to "reasonable accommodation".
They also have the protections provided by health care practioners (i.e. the "rights" --so to speak-- afforded them by having a licensed full-time RN who is employed by the school). MommaBear has posted extensive links about what a school RN is duty-bound to provide our children with health needs. These duties are weighty.
And I'm sure that there are other "rights" too. But these are are the 2 that I *personally* leveraged to get (in essence) a "peanut free" environment at school.
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 09, 2003).]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 12:31am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]AnnaMarie:
Are the parents supplying the snowballs?
[/b]
Only [i]Mother[/i] Nature. But are the parents supplying the guns? Knowingly?
I'm just pointing out that laws don't prevent a person from throwing a snowball at a brick wall, or a tree, or a pile of snow. But in many schools, throwing a snowball at these things is against the rules. These rules are enforced only by the school - not the school board since they differ school to school even within the same board.
Therefore, I think it [b]is[/b] more comparable to peanuts, which also are not against the law.
[This message has been edited by AnnaMarie (edited May 09, 2003).]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 12:56am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] These rules are enforced only by the school - not the school board since they differ school to school even within the same board.[/b]
That is true.. Cindy had posted recently about her son being reprimanded for throwing a snowball. If the school can enforce a snowball-free zone why not a peanut-free zone.

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 1:01am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

It is interesting how this discussion is split so well between Canadian opinions (River, Anna Marie, myself, etc) and Americam opinions (Momma Bear, Gail, etc)..
Maybe a cultural difference between us? How the government gives students in Ontario the right to a peanut-free classroom..
I guess in the USA it is more of a struggle to convince schools to ban peanuts in the classroom.

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 1:12am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
It is interesting how this discussion is split so well between Canadian opinions (River, Anna Marie, myself, etc) and Americam opinions (Momma Bear, Gail, etc)..
Maybe a cultural difference between us? How the government gives students in Ontario the right to a peanut-free classroom..
I guess in the USA it is more of a struggle to convince schools to ban peanuts in the classroom.[/b]
Want to know what is really funny about that? When my middle son was in elementary (he's 17 now) a parent was trying to get the school peanut free. Without really thinking it through (and thinking it would be an extremely easy thing to do) the school jumped on the idea. Their logic was they wanted to jump on the American wagon, where they believed [b]all[/b] schools had peanut bans.
This was a common belief in Canada at that time.

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 2:43am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Seems to me an important question is [b]why[/b] there is such a difference between American and Canadian schools.
I am researching the Ontario government and I found the Code of Conduct when I was looking for [i]Safe Schools Act, 2000[/i]. Here is a quote from it:
[b]Students are to be treated with respect and dignity. In return, they must demonstrate respect for themselves, for others and for the responsibilities of citizenship through acceptable behaviour. Respect and responsibility are demonstrated when a student:
- comes to school prepared, on time and ready to learn;
- shows respect for themselves, for others and for those in authority;
- refrains from bringing anything to school that may compromise the safety of others;
- follows the established rules and takes responsibility for his or her own action.[/b]
These are the rules for students. Read the third point carefully. refrains from bringing [b]anything[/b] to school that [b]may[/b] compromise the [b]safety of others[/b].
With this at the provincial level, it's no wonder our schools tend to take on peanut bans easier.
[This message has been edited by AnnaMarie (edited May 09, 2003).]
[This message has been edited by AnnaMarie (edited May 09, 2003).]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 3:51am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]With this at the provincial level, it's no wonder our schools tend to take on peanut bans easier.
[/b]
You reminded me of something I posted earlier:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cam's Mom:
Now with a PF policy, he simply doesn't have a law to back up his enforcement, but he still has enforcement duties.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I responded:
"Are you saying that he has to enforce "Peanut Free" if he has a "Peanut Free" policy?
Is this realistically achievable? If it isn't, is it enforceable?
If it isn't enforceable, Is it possible to make a "Peanut Free" policy? Or are we asking for "lip service"? Ie: "I like this term, it makes me feel better, I asked for it, therefore the school must accomodate me, since in an ideal world, I would create a "Peanut Free" environment for my child."? (if indeed this is true, would it really be the most effective remedy for food in the classroom?)
Is the most effective remedy what we as parents of PA children are essentially seeking? Would "effective" necessitate being "realistically achieveable?"
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cam's Mom:
Where is his liability if he decides not to pose a PF area for my son and then he has a reaction, he has been made aware of the danger that the pnut poses, but yet did not have preventable measures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I responded:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I am not sure of what you are trying to say? Should I take "preventable measures" to mean "realistically achievable"?
MommaBear"
*******************************************
Disclaimer: I am only asking questions. I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 4:23am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

MommaBear posted:
[b]"Are you saying that he has to enforce "Peanut Free" if he has a "Peanut Free" policy?
Is this realistically achievable? If it isn't, is it enforceable?[/b]
Peanut Free IMHO is not realistic, or achievable - only literal.
Most schools I know of don't use that term. In fact, I'm not aware of my son's school actually using any term, they just don't allow peanuts or peanut products in the school or yard.
[b]If it isn't enforceable, Is it possible to make a "Peanut Free" policy? Or are we asking for "lip service"? Ie: "I like this term, it makes me feel better, I asked for it, therefore the school must accomodate me, since in an ideal world, I would create a "Peanut Free" environment for my child."? (if indeed this is true, would it really be the most effective remedy for food in the classroom?)[/b]
If it's a name you want, yes, it probably is "lip service".
[b]Is the most effective remedy what we as parents of PA children are essentially seeking? Would "effective" necessitate being "realistically achieveable?"[/b]
I think "effective" does necessitate being "realistically achieveable" as well as "realistic". For example; literal peanut-free is possible in my home (it's not what I chose to have, but it [b]is[/b] "realistically achieveable").
[b]
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I am not sure of what you are trying to say? Should I take "preventable measures" to mean "realistically achievable"?
[/b]
Well, I can't speak for Cam's mom, but I would think that "preventable measures" would have to be "realistically achievable".

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 4:57am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

OK.....
Instead of a "peanut-free classroom" ...
(editorial note: which I think is a appropriate term as it is the goal, as I would never be naive enough to assume that every single thing in a peanut-free classroom would be safe as some manufacturers such as Eastern European chocolate don't even label for peanut contamination just as if I had asthma and cigarette smoke allergies I would not assume that every single smoke-free restaurant was 100% free of smoke)
... why not call it a "peanuts not permitted" classroom
Same goal...
different name...
As it doesn't matter what we call it as long as peanuts are not permitted.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 7:09am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
As it doesn't matter what we call it as long as peanuts are not permitted.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]
To you and me, and everyone else [b]here[/b] it may not matter. But I think it does matter to the educators.
If I felt the need to have a particular food banned I would not use the blank-free term. I think it does scare them and hinders the progress.
Is this just arguing semantics? Yes it is, and that hinders progress. Just MHO.

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 7:21am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]Is this just arguing semantics? Yes it is, and that hinders progress. Just MHO.[/b]
AnnaMariae!!!! Hey girl! You're on "our" team!!! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I couldn't agree with you more! I absolutely agree that by requesting PF classroom (or school) here (USA) that odds are their response will be "you are not rightfully entitled to a PF classroom and it is unrealistic". So why even [i]go [/i]that route? Why not go the route that [i] does [/i] flex what you [i] are rightfully entitled [/i]...request 504 designation and obtain a written prevention plan?
Personally, as my prevention plan is a "food free" classroom, it seems to be [b] more "peanut free" [/b]without taking on the title.
Ironic, isn't it?

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 7:30am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Personally, as my prevention plan is a "food free" classroom, it seems to be [b] more "peanut free" [/b]without taking on the title.
Ironic, isn't it?
[/b]
So what would be more realistic in Toronto where we don't have lunchrooms. "Food free" classrooms or "peanut-free" classrooms?
Anyway, we can call them "peanuts not permitted" classrooms if you want... it doesn't matetr to me as long as the peanuts are kept out.
Actually, I am not the best person to even argue for a peanut-free classroom.. I never had a peanut-free classroom as they didn't exist back then.. people ate peanut butter sandwiches and peanut granola bars and peanut chocolate bars when I was in school and I survived (but I was careful too).

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 7:49am
joeybeth's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/01/2006 - 09:00

erik: you are awesome. i love the way you think. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
(...."it doesn't matter what we call it, as long as peanuts are not permitted). i like the way you don't haggle over the details.
joey
[This message has been edited by joeybeth (edited May 09, 2003).]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 7:53am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] So what would be more realistic in Toronto where we don't have lunchrooms. "Food free" classrooms or "peanut-free" classrooms?
[/b]
I don't know. It's a tough situation for sure. I know that some schools here use their gym as the lunchroom (tables fold down from the walls).
I truly think that the situation is different in Canada than here. And it varies here too.

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 7:55am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by joeybeth:
[b]erik: you are awesome. i love the way you think. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
(...."it doesn't matter what we call it, as long as peanuts are not permitted). i like the way you don't haggle over the details.
joey
[/b]
Hi joey.
It was my [i]school [/i]that "haggled" over these details. Did yours?
Have you had success getting your school to "not permit" peanuts? I hope you have... have you?
Gail
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 09, 2003).]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 8:23am
joeybeth's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/01/2006 - 09:00

actually gail (and others), i haven't been dealing with school because a series of tornadoes ripped through our town and destroyed and/or damaged our schools. our kisd won't be attending school the rest of the year and may not even be able to return on time next year. fortunately, the storms happened on a sunday night so no people were in the buildings. only the high school is still considered structurally safe. (many, many people lost their homes and businesses and several lost their lives as well). we live in a small town in missouri that has been in the news a lot lately because of all this.
anyway, several weeks before this took place the principal sent out a note declaring my 1st grader's room "peanut free." (i should have posted this letter for you all on pa.com but i've been in the lurk mode - for the most part - for some time). since i have handled our situation with school wrong from the outset, we didn't have much luck with that letter and the principal's attention to the problem.
our principal was determined to tell me that butterfinger blasted cookies do NOT contain peanuts/peanut butter, for example (even though she could read the label for herself). we had this little disagreement after a little boy accidentally stumbled near bryce's desk and dropped the pkg. of cookies he was carrying onto bryce's bare arm. freak accidents do happen.
the teachers themselves (our teacher and one asst. teacher) enjoyed reeses peices and pb cups during the easter party, just AFTER they sent the letter home with each student. etc..etc..etc... so...even though they called the room "peanut free", it was just a weak effort to appease me. nothing really changed. that is why i will not begin with the teacher or even the principal for next year. they can follow orders (whatever they may be) from their superiors as far as i'm concerned. no more begging from me.
i'm not sure they were being unkind (in fact, i would say they were not) but i do believe they were not ever properly educated on how to reduce the risks and the reality of peanut allergy. the principal, for example, insisted in the letter on "banning" may contains from the classroom (at my disapproval) even though she didn't even understand what a may contain was. i told her i thought banning may contains (especially since my child does not eat anyone else's food at school) was not necessary and would make compliance more difficult for other parents/students. her efforts didn't help us at all and even hurt us in the long run, imo, no matter what her intentions were.
after all, if you ban all forms of peanuts in the classroom, including may contains, and then allow reeses pieces and pb cups in, what have you accomplished? everyone was even more confused after the principal offered to help. the staff said one thing, and then did completely another.
that's why i love erik's no nonsense, common sense approach....NO PEANUTS....how easy is that? my child doesn't eat food that isn't from home anyhow (not in the classroom) so that pretty much solves the problem. in fact, a no food classroom would be even better. then there is no confusion whatsoever. i love that idea too.
joey

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 8:28am
joeybeth's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/01/2006 - 09:00

oh, and no, my school didn't haggle over the details. they haven't spent enough time thinking about this whole issue to even look at the details. i take responsibility for that. joey

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 8:40am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Oh joey,
OMG. I am so so sorry for all this. We missed them up here, further north in St. Louis. Oh geesh.... I hope your home is okay...
You are in my prayers.
Gail
P.S. BTW, I totally understand that sometimes getting embroiled in the details we can lose sight of "common sense". Right on.

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 8:42am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] To you and me, and everyone else [b]here[/b] it may not matter. But I think it does matter to the educators.
If I felt the need to have a particular food banned I would not use the blank-free term. I think it does scare them and hinders the progress.
Is this just arguing semantics? Yes it is, and that hinders progress. Just MHO.[/b]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 8:44am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] AnnaMariae!!!! Hey girl! You're on "our" team!!! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I couldn't agree with you more! I absolutely agree that by requesting PF classroom (or school) here (USA) that odds are their response will be "you are not rightfully entitled to a PF classroom and it is unrealistic". So why even [i]go [/i]that route? Why not go the route that [i] does [/i] flex what you [i] are rightfully entitled [/i]...request 504 designation and obtain a written prevention plan?
Personally, as my prevention plan is a "food free" classroom, it seems to be [b] more "peanut free" [/b]without taking on the title.
Ironic, isn't it?
[/b]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
(even semantics serve a purpose?)

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 8:48am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]MommaBear posted:
[b]"Are you saying that he has to enforce "Peanut Free" if he has a "Peanut Free" policy?
Is this realistically achievable? If it isn't, is it enforceable?[/b]
Peanut Free IMHO is not realistic, or achievable - only literal.
Most schools I know of don't use that term. In fact, I'm not aware of my son's school actually using any term, they just don't allow peanuts or peanut products in the school or yard.
[b]If it isn't enforceable, Is it possible to make a "Peanut Free" policy? Or are we asking for "lip service"? Ie: "I like this term, it makes me feel better, I asked for it, therefore the school must accomodate me, since in an ideal world, I would create a "Peanut Free" environment for my child."? (if indeed this is true, would it really be the most effective remedy for food in the classroom?)[/b]
If it's a name you want, yes, it probably is "lip service".
[b]Is the most effective remedy what we as parents of PA children are essentially seeking? Would "effective" necessitate being "realistically achieveable?"[/b]
I think "effective" does necessitate being "realistically achieveable" as well as "realistic". For example; literal peanut-free is possible in my home (it's not what I chose to have, but it [b]is[/b] "realistically achieveable").
[b]
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I am not sure of what you are trying to say? Should I take "preventable measures" to mean "realistically achievable"?
[/b]
Well, I can't speak for Cam's mom, but I would think that "preventable measures" would have to be "realistically achievable".
[/b]
AnnaMarie,
Thank you for taking time from your day to respond (and to all others participating in this thread). [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 8:50am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

If semantics are argued in a forest and no one is there to hear them, do they make a sound?
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 8:58am
joeybeth's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/01/2006 - 09:00

we are fine and our home is only missing a few shingles. we live less than one mile from the most damaged parts of town. a lot of people lost everything. it's amazing how one neighborhood can be so unaffected and one right next to it can be almost completely destroyed. the fact that anyone survived in some areas just amazes me. i almost feel guilty that my home was spared because we were all away from home when it happened. if it had hit my house at least it would have just been "stuff" lost. we were so lucky that it happened in the evening and on a weekend so the kids here were not in school. we live in carl junction. i believe peirce city (i don't know where that is actually) had even more damage and loss than we did.
joey

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 9:08am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by joeybeth:
[b]actually gail (and others), i haven't been dealing with school because a series of tornadoes ripped through our town and destroyed and/or damaged our schools. [/b]
I am glad that you and your family are safe. It is very sad about the destruction and loss of life that occurred.

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 9:09am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]If semantics are argued in a forest and no one is there to hear them, do they make a sound? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img][/b]
do doo do doo do doooooooo?

Posted on: Fri, 05/09/2003 - 4:27pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]If semantics are argued in a forest and no one is there to hear them, do they make a sound?
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img][/b]
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003608.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003608.html[/url]
eric, I reraised a few threads [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sat, 05/10/2003 - 7:15am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
As it doesn't matter what we call it as long as peanuts are not permitted.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]
I'll bet some folk would argue that. LOL.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
On a *personal* level here:
Disclaimer: The following is not intended as advice in any manner or form. It is what my husband and I *personally* require regarding our own child (PA/nuts/some other legumes/Asthma/"Atopic"). And to some extent, and as far as I can tell what my own son (PA) *personally* requires as well. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [b]:[/b]
"Peanut Free" and "Reduce the Risk" (as well as some other "Labels" aside, we, my family, need a way to reduce the **unnecessary** risk of reaction due to life threatening food allergy (in this case specifically PA) as much as is **realistically** possible. And contemplate "Risk VS. Benefit" from there, on a personal level. "Informed Consent", so to speak.
We *personally* feel to accomplish this any Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standard of Care must be measurable, definable, and enforceable.
We also *personally* feel that such (measurable, definable, and enforceable)can only "flow down" the chain of command when "validated" by persons formally considered to posess this power. [b](Which, by the way seems to be the method by which "the chain of command" is usually determined. ie: meeting certain criteria and fulfilling certain obligatory requirements, with consequences for violating.)[/b][i]Such authority is most likely directly proportional to the burden of responsibility.[/i]
Side note>>Interesting thread:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001007.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001007.html[/url]
Such (this idea continued from the previous paragraph and not necessarily from the thread [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]) creates "responsibility" as well as "accountability", does it not? (As opposed to a "Label".)
Quite possibly why I don't place faith or my child's life in a label.
Just felt like reposting my earlier words: :
[b]"How "educating" can the words "peanut free" be? If indeed it is a "relative term"? If you take the definition literally, what method is in place to formally achieve this? Does "education" on a subject serve as a more useful tool to "encourage certain forms of behavior"
Still *personally* leaning towards an environment that extremely limits any and all "unnecessary food" from the classroom as well as indicating snack time and meal time to take place in an environment outside of the "classroom" since it indicates in itself how hard certain substances that promote life-threatening allergic reactions can be to remove from an environment or contain. (Again, based on the "institutional", classic, educational settings I am familiar with.)
If, indeed, a parent is trying to achieve a "risk reduced" classroom and not a 100% guarantee by instituting the label "Peanut Free Classroom" (you indicated:"It means that everyone strives to make it as close to 100% peanut-free as they can, knowing there is no absolute guarantee.), why institute a label that proverbially speaks out of both ends?
Hypothetically speaking, if we were going to institute "Free" labels in any form, would a "Food Free Classroom" be more effective, reduce more risk, and theoretically easier to monitor than "Peanut Free Classroom"? (Considering your interpretation of "Free", as you indicate in the last two sentences, lol, not meaning a "an absolute guarantee")?
As long as we're travelling the high road here, and not just asking for "lip service".
I have an ethical caveat against asking of persons things I *personally* deem ineffective to the ultimate end of those requests. Even if it does make *me* feel validated.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. My words not intended as such in any manner or form. Merely seeking clarification of ideas put forth in discussion."[/b]
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 10, 2003).]

Posted on: Sat, 05/10/2003 - 4:18pm
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] I'll bet some folk would argue that. LOL.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
[/b]
Why? As long as peanuts are not permitted, and there is enforement to ensure this is true... who cares what we call it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sat, 05/10/2003 - 10:13pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] As long as peanuts are not permitted, and there is enforement to ensure this is true... who cares what we call it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img][/b]
[b]Do[/b] elaborate. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
ie: "peanuts are not permitted"
"enforcement to ensure this is true"
Maybe your superior male intellect will provide a solution to this enigma. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
(notice the [b]three[/b] grinning smilies)
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 12:22am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
Do elaborate. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[/b]
I've never been to a "peanuts not permitted" school since I am old, and a long time ago in a galaxy far away, no one had even considered the concept of not permitting peanuts in schools.
However, in the "Does your child have a peanut-free classroom/school)" thread, numerous Canadians (and a few Americans) answered 'yes' so they would be more qualified than me (especially since my male intellect is brain dead as I just woke up and am sleepy) to provide an answer as to how these procedures work since they have experienced them first-hand and participated while I am only been a second-hand observer.
Plus I have no time to write more as it's time to go out for Mother's Day now. Happy Mother's Day too! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 12:45am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Why? As long as peanuts are not permitted, and there is enforement to ensure this is true... who cares what we call it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img][/b]
The schools care because if a child has an allergic reaction (which is quite possible since, as we agree PF is not 100%), the school becomes [b]more liable [/b] with the "Peanut Free" status. They are more liable because the allergic reaction indicates their enforcement/policing (that they accpeted when taking on this status) [b]failed [/b].
The gun/drug-free policies posted here state that the school is responsible to [b]report [/b]any violations to authorities. Since there is no enforcement agencies within our government to whom he can report a peanut violation (PN not being a controlled substance), he necessarily takes on this responsibility. He must police it, in the same manner that our government policies drugs and weapons. Peanut products don't have these regulations, so if a child w/ PA had a bad reaction, he is much [i]more liable [/i]because he assumed this regulatory role...that failed. When a kid has an allergic reaction, it is because "his law" and enforcement failed. If a kid had a gun/drug consequence, it is (in large part) because our government regulations and enforcement failed.
That's why enforcement is key... because they are liable if/when it fails.
Just as an aside: This is why our school refused the PF status. They put into place very detailed written procedures of what they [b] would [/b] do to regulate food products, ones that they are liable for and take very seriously. It was my school, [i]not [/i] me, who insisted on the "food free" classroom. I maintained that they should "police" by reading labels and they refused because it was too complicated (i.e. what constitutes "Peanut free"? the whole may contain issue, etc, etc). They have proven to me that they were right.
Happy Mother's Day, too. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited May 11, 2003).]

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 2:30am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
However, in the "Does your child have a peanut-free classroom/school)" thread, numerous Canadians (and a few Americans) answered 'yes' so they would be more qualified than me (especially since my male intellect is brain dead as I just woke up and am sleepy) to provide an answer as to how these procedures work since they have experienced them first-hand and participated while I am only been a second-hand observer.
[/b]
Would they be willing to [i]elaborate[/i]?
BTW, Happy Mother's Day to Everyone who meets the qualifying criteria. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 4:13am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Cam's Mom:
[b] ...in a school that the principal has implemented a PF area, the peanuts are "illegal" in a peanut free area due to school and/or district guidelines. [/b]
Yes. Which is [b]why [/b] when a child has an allergic reaction in a school that claims PF status, it the principal's legal butt that is on the line...because it was [b]his "protection" (enforcement) that failed.[/b]
Gail

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 4:20am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Hey MommaBear,
Sorry you didn't get out of town as plannned. Happy Mother's Day from one "tireless rebutter" to another. LOL!
[url="http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame21.html"]http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame21.html[/url]
Hope you come back Lana, river and everyone else....
Gail

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 5:31am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]Hey MommaBear,
Sorry you didn't get out of town as plannned. Happy Mother's Day from one "tireless rebutter" to another. LOL!
[url="http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame21.html"]http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame21.html[/url]
Hope you come back Lana, river and everyone else....
Gail[/b]
More like?
[url="http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame22.html"]http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame22.html[/url]

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 9:22am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Yes. Which is why when a child has an allergic reaction in a school that claims PF status, it the principal's legal butt that is on the line...because it was his "protection" (enforcement) that failed.[/b]
Therefore there seem to be a lot of school pricipals here in Ontario who are willing to put their butts on the line (not on-line.. on the line [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] ) as they do call their classrooms/schools peanut-free and they don't seem to be overly concerned about liability as Canadians are more docile in this regard... actually, if it is actually the government of Ontario that guarantees a peanut-free classroom for the child, maybe it is Premier Ernie Eve's butt that's on the line.
But I don't see school principals overly concerned about this, although as Anna Marie posted it seems a lot of schools are calling their "peanut-banned" schools as "reduce the risk" these days (even with the reduce the risk name, it is still a peanut ban so it is the same as before but a different name) so that parents will still realize there is possibility that another parent could still send in peanut products that were undetected.
Yes... I think Ernie Eves is more concerned about his pending re-election campaign than he is about nut-free schools. Actually, the nuts are all in the Legislature! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] Although I don't want to veer into provincial politics so I'll stop veering now. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 9:25am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]
[url="http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame21.html"]http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame21.html[/url]
[/b]
Hey Gail,
First, you are not universally loathed.. and secondly, you didn't wear me down as I am still here posting away. You thought I'd be gone by now? So I guess you are not a true "Tireless Rebutter" as the criteria does not fit you.

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 11:35am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Hey Gail,
First, you are not universally loathed.. and secondly, you didn't wear me down as I am still here posting away. You thought I'd be gone by now? So I guess you are not a true "Tireless Rebutter" as the criteria does not fit you.[/b]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] Thank you Erik. I really appreciate that. Seems we have lost quite a few, tho...
Gail

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 11:45am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Therefore there seem to be a lot of school pricipals here in Ontario who are willing to put their butts on the line (not on-line.. on the line [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] ) as they do call their classrooms/schools peanut-free and they don't seem to be overly concerned about liability as Canadians are more docile in this regard... actually, if it is actually the government of Ontario that guarantees a peanut-free classroom for the child, maybe it is Premier Ernie Eve's butt that's on the line.
[/b]
I agree that this is very interesting... US/Canadian differences... perhaps you are correct in thinking that it has to do with whether or not the government deems something as a "right".
Just FYI, here is the mission statement of the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms:
[url="http://www.atf.treas.gov/about/mission.htm"]http://www.atf.treas.gov/about/mission.htm[/url]
When we were out at dinner tonight I saw a cigarette machine with a notice on it stating that it is illegal in our state to purchase or have in pocession cigarettes if under the age of 18. It also stated the license to sell these cigarettes must be displayed on the premises. All this seems highly regulated and enforced, as this website shows...
Gail

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 11:47am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]
Thank you Erik. I really appreciate that. Seems we have lost quite a few, tho...
[/b]
Hi Gail,
I think the others feel that they've made their points, so nothing more to discuss here as there are so many discussion threads occurring here it is hard to keep up.
As for me, I keep eating my Nestle Canada bars (Coffee Crisp, Aero, Smarties, Mirage, and Kit Kat) and that gives me enough energy to keep on posting.
They are all peanut-free chocolate bars too... (or in the USA I guess they'd be called 'reduce the risk candy bars') [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
(note: Kit Kat bar is not safe in the USA)
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 11, 2003).]

Posted on: Sun, 05/11/2003 - 12:37pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]
Just FYI, here is the mission statement of the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms:
[url="http://www.atf.treas.gov/about/mission.htm"]http://www.atf.treas.gov/about/mission.htm[/url]
When we were out at dinner tonight I saw a cigarette machine with a notice on it stating that it is illegal in our state to purchase or have in pocession cigarettes if under the age of 18. It also stated the license to sell these cigarettes must be displayed on the premises. All this seems highly regulated and enforced, as this website shows...
Gail[/b]
The FOREST! The FOREST!
(Thanks for the link, Gail [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img])
I got a chance to explore the site. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Particularly found this interesting:
[url="http://www.atf.treas.gov/about/critical.htm"]http://www.atf.treas.gov/about/critical.htm[/url]
a quote contained therein:
[b]" Integrity
Maintaining the highest standard of integrity is essential to accomplishing our goals and retaining the trust of the American public. We will achieve this by continuing to build a culture that is intolerant of breaches of integrity. We will reinforce this through training, strong inspection, ethics, and internal control programs."[/b]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Pages

More Community Posts

Peanut Free and Nut Free Community

create a new community post
Latest Post by Italia38 Tue, 11/12/2019 - 2:43pm
Comments: 2
Latest Post by absfabs Mon, 11/11/2019 - 1:28pm
Comments: 2
Latest Post by absfabs Mon, 11/11/2019 - 1:23pm
Comments: 3
Latest Post by Italia38 Fri, 11/08/2019 - 12:10pm
Comments: 4
Latest Post by Italia38 Fri, 11/08/2019 - 11:47am
Comments: 6
Latest Post by sunshinestate Thu, 11/07/2019 - 3:43pm
Comments: 4
Latest Post by sunshinestate Thu, 11/07/2019 - 2:48pm
Comments: 7
Latest Post by penelope Tue, 11/05/2019 - 3:44pm
Comments: 12
Latest Post by penelope Tue, 11/05/2019 - 3:35pm
Comments: 13
Latest Post by absfabs Tue, 11/05/2019 - 2:11pm
Comments: 6
Latest Post by absfabs Tue, 11/05/2019 - 2:09pm
Comments: 5
Latest Post by chicken Tue, 11/05/2019 - 12:06pm
Comments: 5
Latest Post by sunshinestate Mon, 11/04/2019 - 1:44pm
Comments: 3
Latest Post by sunshinestate Thu, 10/31/2019 - 11:20am
Comments: 2

More Articles

For people who suffer from anaphylaxis, a severe allergic reaction that can result from an allergy to...

Anaphylactic shock (A-nuh-fih-LAK-tik shok): A severe and sometimes life-threatening immune system reaction to an antigen that a person has been...

In 1963 the American Medical Association designed a special symbol that would alert emergency medical personnel of special medical conditions when...

Finding allergy-free foods for an office potluck may seem impossible, but more options are available than you might think. Eating foods prepared...

One of the most difficult things for a parent to do is determine whether his or her toddler has a cold or a...

More Articles

More Articles

You no doubt have your own way of teaching people about your child’s food allergy, a way that suits your temperament, and style of communication....

Reliable peanut allergy statistics are not that easy to come by. There is a lot of available research on food allergies in general but not too...

Most people know that to enjoy whatever food safety accommodations an airline offers they need to inform the airline of their allergy prior to...

A 504 plan* documents food allergy accommodations agreed to by parents and their child’s school. Plans are typically created during a 504 meeting...

If there is a child at your children's school allergic to peanuts, the school probably discourages or may not allow peanut products to be brought...

If you are on a budget, but you need to wear some sort of notification that you have a peanut...

Unless we consciously carve out time for self-care, constant food allergy management can slowly erode our sense of well-being. Signs of allergy-...

Peanuts cause more severe food allergic reactions than other foods, followed by shellfish, fish, tree nuts and eggs. Although there is only a...

If you avoid peanuts, it’s likely you know the joy of cashews. Slightly sweet and smooth in texture, cashews provide not only relief to those with...

The prevalence of food allergy has dramatically increased over the past two to three decades, and not just among children. Preliminary results...

When someone in the family is diagnosed with a food allergy, a choice must be made whether to ban the problem food or foods from the home. The...

Looking for a fun way to share what you know about your own food allergies? Or are you hoping to educate the people around you in a fun way about...

According to the results of a new study, children lacking Vitamin D may be more susceptible to food allergies. Researchers working at the Albert...

If you or your child has a peanut or nut allergy, identifying the presence of nuts in food becomes a priority, but what if the written or spoken...

Soap allergies can cause a lot of discomfort and itching. If you suddenly develop a rash or bumps on your skin, you may suspect that you have an...