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Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 3:00pm
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by synthia:
[b]
Or unless we the parents scream loud enough or fight long enough.
[/b]
Gail,
Did you "scream"?
Did you "fight"?
Did you [i]need[/i] to?
I have a difficult time imagining you doing either (also difficult, as I don't know what you look like, but suspect you dress tastefully.........Jones New York? Liz? Anne Klein? D.K.N.Y?) but, hey, I could be wrong.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 3:19pm
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Eric,
again asking:
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
Hypothetically speaking, if we were going to institute "Free" labels in any form, would a "Food Free Classroom" be more effective, reduce more risk, and theoretically easier to monitor than "Peanut Free Classroom"? (Considering your interpretation of "Free", as you indicate in the last two sentences, lol, not meaning a "an absolute guarantee")?
As long as we're travelling the high road here, and not just asking for "lip service".
I have an ethical caveat against asking of persons things I *personally* deem ineffective to the ultimate end of those requests. Even if it does make *me* feel validated.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. My words not intended as such in any manner or form. Merely seeking clarification of ideas put forth in discussion.
[/b]

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 3:39pm
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]If, indeed everyone is privy to the undertone of "Peanut Free" in Canada, as you so state, then how could the term "Peanut Free" possibly "send a stronger message"? If, indeed, everyone has the "insider perspective"?[/b]
Because Canadians are not privy to the undertones of "reduce the risk" regarding PA. The more common term here is peanut-free. That is the term we use north of the 49th parallel.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Eric,
again asking:
[/b]
Food free classrooms is a good idea. But in Ontario Canada many schools do not have cafeterias so students must eat in the classrooms.
And even if it was food free, students could sneak in food....
I think Cayley's Mom's daughter is in a peanut-free school.. hope she comes back again .. maybe she can describe it for us .. I seem to remember her writing that her peanut free school was successful. I'll look for her old posting. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
But yes.. food free would be good for the classroom... kids eat too much junk these days anyway (spoken by a chocolate addict who dips my Kit Kat fingers in merlot! haha)
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 07, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 3:44pm
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Maybe it's just me? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[/b]
Maybe not.
Maybe it's just me? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
(It's late at night.. need sleep..)
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 07, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 3:56pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Cam's Mom:
[b]
I don't think they would be liable b/c they have took action and made a reasonable attempt to provide safety...the same goes for the alcohol incident, the school can't be held liable had they not seen it. Because they made reasonable efforts to keep it out as best as they could.
Maybe I should re-phrase my words from can't to shouldn't, I'm not a lawyer these are my viewpoints entirely.
We could use any liability issue/cases as examples...last year when a grocery cart rolled and dinged my car, I wanted them to pay to have it fixed, we talked to someone who is a lawyer and b/c the grocery store has cart holders, they are not liable, had the store not had the cart holders or an employee was in control of the cart they would have been liable. But they can't be responsible for other peoples negligence even though its on their own property.[/b]
Ah. A fundamental difference in [i]experience[/i]?
In my profession, It is my understanding that I may be held accountable for things I do not see, and am not aware of when they occur. Especially if there is Policy Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care that indicate what I should be aware of, when I should be aware of it, and a need to be aware of. Or at least approved methodologies for preventing such occurrances.
[b]To the best of my knowledge, the system does not knowingly attempt to "build in" breaches in the wall.[/b]
It has been my experience and has been incorporated into training that I have received, that if I follow such Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care all should go well.
In the event that such does not, despite accurately following Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care, theory indicates that I should be free from liability providing I have an approved methods of verifying such Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care were respected. (Documentation comes first to mind.)
In the event that such does not (go well), especially if there seems to be a pattern, and despite following Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care................
There are methods in place by which re-evaluation of such Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care may be improved and revised to more adequately address specific and general situations.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: This post not intended as advice in any manner or form. It is merely an attempt to relay *personal* thoughts specific to my own *personal* experience and situation.

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 4:09pm
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Eric,:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum8/HTML/000481.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum8/HTML/000481.html[/url]
A "Food Free" section?
As long as "High Road" is the preferred method of travel?
lololol

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 10:45pm
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
In my profession, It is my understanding that I may be held accountable for things I do not see, and am not aware of when they occur. Especially if there is Policy Procedure, Protocol, and Standards of Care that indicate what I should be aware of, when I should be aware of it, and a need to be aware of. Or at least approved methodologies for preventing such occurrances.
[/b]
Hmmmmmm........ do you think the same could be said for a school that has a FULL-TIME LICENSED NURSE???? ???? ?????
(Sorry. Just got up...Haven't had my coffee yet... Need to take my anti-paranoia pill so that I don't worry about getting re-directed to one of the threads on school nurses... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] I guess I should say LITTERALLY speaking, all these concepts play into one another... it is impossible for me to speak to any one alone.)
JMHO.

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 11:34pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Cam's Mom:
[b]But this is why I brought this up, I don't expect the school to guarentee the room is 100% PF, no more than I expect it to be drug and weapon free...What I do expect with a PF status, is the same expectation I do with Guns and Drugs...to enforce the rule and handle it immediately.[/b]
Worth repeating.
[b]Sounds logical to me.[/b]
This is the way a peanut-free classroom is in Ontario, Canada. This is how we think. And we have a LOT of peanut-free classroooms in Ontario.. it is very common.

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 11:54pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Hmmmmmm........ do you think the same could be said for a school that has a FULL-TIME LICENSED NURSE???? ???? ?????
[/b]
If not a "Full Time School Nurse", then who?
Exactly what "Standard of Care" do parents expect, require, or feel their children worthy of when in an "formal", "institutional" setting such as a "school"?
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 11:56pm
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] If not a "Full Time School Nurse", then who?
[/b]
We have no school nurses in Ontario (not even a long time ago in a galaxy far away when I was a student).
If there is a student injury, I assume the procedure is to notify the school principal and to call 9-1-1.

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 11:58pm
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Anonymous (not verified)

And to think, I was watching the biography channel at 1:00 - I should have been here [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
At this point in Toronto, you would have a hard time finding an elementary school that does not have some sort of peanut ban (could be class or school). However, the three I have spoken to staff in [b] will not use the term peanut free [/b]. Peanut bans have been happening in Toronto for nearly 10 years.
At first they were calling themselves peanut free and the expectation was that the pa child could eat [b] any food product [/b] that came in to the school. That's why at first there were actually cases of kids who never had reactions at school started having them when the school became peanut free.
Now, personally, I don't really care what it's called, but peanut-free is not an accurate term for what we have.
peanut ban
reduce the risk
allergy aware
these terms are more accurate.
I also think a school principal would be more open to some of these other terms.
Eric is correct that most elementary schools here do not have cafeterias. Kids either eat in their class, in the gym, or in the halls. (Trust me, the halls is the worse for food residue.)
But a more important question (in this city) is why are over half the students staying for lunch when they live 5 - 10 minutes walk from the school and parents are home? If only those who needed to stay, stayed, that alone would reduce the risk quite a bit. Less food and less mess to clean up.

Posted on: Tue, 05/06/2003 - 11:59pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] (Sorry. Just got up...Haven't had my coffee yet... Need to take my anti-paranoia pill so that I don't worry about getting re-directed to one of the threads on school nurses... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] I guess I should say LITTERALLY speaking, all these concepts play into one another... it is impossible for me to speak to any one alone.)
JMHO.
[/b]
HAAAAAAAAAAAAALEL-LU-JAH!
HAAAAAAAAAAALEL-LU-JAH!
HA-LEL-LU-JAH!
HA-LEL-LU-JAH!
HA-LEEEEEEE-EEEEEEEL-LUUUUUUUUUUU-JAH!
[url="http://members.aol.com/nonstopny/easter/messiah.htm#hear%20it%20live"]http://members.aol.com/nonstopny/easter/messiah.htm#hear%20it%20live[/url]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely humming to myself. Loudly. (Just finished slugging down my third cup of coffee as well-----The humming grows louder...............)

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:00am
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Anonymous (not verified)

Eric, there are staff members with first aid training. These days that does include training re allergies and epi-pens.
Usually the gym teacher is one of the teachers with training.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:07am
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Eric,:
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
Exactly what "Standard of Care" do parents expect, require, or feel their children worthy of when in an "formal", "institutional" setting such as a "school"?
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.
[/b]
(Although, I am unclear as to whether this question would apply to you. Yet.)

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:10am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]Lana, synthia, anyone?
[/b]
Before you know it........... You may also be directed to the "Annoying" thread. LOL. I forgot, is that the same as the "Bandwidth" thread, or are they one and the same? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:13am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]Eric, there are staff members with first aid training. These days that does include training re allergies and epi-pens.
Usually the gym teacher is one of the teachers with training.[/b]
I posted before:
[i]"Exactly what "Standard of Care" do parents expect, require, or feel their children worthy of when in an "formal", "institutional" setting such as a "school"?
MommaBear
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form."[/i]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:16am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

MB - None that he admits to here [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Since I do have a child in elementary (though not pa) I will answer your question. I expect a staff member to have first aid training - and be available.
I expect them to have the sense to use gloves when treating my child (not latex if either are allergic).
I expect them to call me and if necessary to call 9-1-1 and my experience has been that regarding ambulances they tend to err on the side of caution - which is what I prefer.
I also expect them to have any student's medicine readily available (especially though not solely allergy meds.)

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:16am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]
I guess I should say LITTERALLY speaking, all these concepts play into one another... it is impossible for me to speak to any one alone.)
JMHO.
[/b]
I seem to recall you mentioning on the boards you had experience as a [b]"Health Educator".[/b] Maybe my memory is wrong. Maybe it's just me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 07, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:24am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]peanut ban
reduce the risk
allergy aware
these terms are more accurate. [/b]
maybe peanut-safe?
And if I had been in a peanut-free classroom, I would [b]not[/b] blindly eat anything that was there and assume it was safe. I am more allergy aware than that and I guess I assumed others would be too. But maybe that's just me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:26am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]Eric, there are staff members with first aid training. These days that does include training re allergies and epi-pens.
Usually the gym teacher is one of the teachers with training.[/b]
That is good to know. Maybe that was true in my day too (many eons ago) but as a kid I did not know.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:29am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]MB - None that he admits to here [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Since I do have a child in elementary (though not pa) I will answer your question. I expect a staff member to have first aid training - and be available.
I expect them to have the sense to use gloves when treating my child (not latex if either are allergic).
I expect them to call me and if necessary to call 9-1-1 and my experience has been that regarding ambulances they tend to err on the side of caution - which is what I prefer.
I also expect them to have any student's medicine readily available (especially though not solely allergy meds.)[/b]
Have you come across this thread?:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000991.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000991.html[/url]
Aside from "first aid training", I am wondering what experience, education, and licensure will facilitate the fullfillment of such "expectations"? Is this a "delegation" issue?
MommaBear
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:47am
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Originally posted by Cindy Spowart Cook:
[b] "I didn't know that we were speaking about liability in this thread. I didn't know that that was the *issue* of this thread. I thought the *issue* of this thread was comparing how schools call themselves "gun free" "drug free" and why the he** they can't also call themselves "peanut free". I understand where liability would enter into schools calling themselves any of these things, but I didn't think it was part and parcel of me having to understand liability (and my son's school's liability should something happen to him at school PA related) to participate in the discussion.
And yes, after reading many posts after my last one, where I was confused about liability NOW, I still am." [/b]
Yes, it is extremely confusing... the liability issue. Here, in the US, I believe it is impossible to talk about any one topic without discussing the issues such as liability, policy, law, licensing, full-time school nurses, etc. They ALL come into play. (BTW, this is why *I* personally get "irritated" when you re-direct me to another thread. If I try to catagorize and compartmentalize each topic as you ask me to do, then I can't be a part of the discussion.)
[b] "School board districts in the Province of Ontario give the PA child the *right* to a "peanut free" classroom." [/b]
I don't believe that the law is clear on this for US citizens.
[b] "But there are no point by point written guidelines for a school to follow to ensure the safety of the PA child. There are no point by point written guidelines on how to run a peanut free classroom." [/b]
This is what I helped create in our district. Our IHP for Mariah is a point-by-point document with the explicit goal of pin pointing what precautions the school will take to ensure Mariah's safety. It is legally binding with tons of lilability for the school.
[b] "I had never seen a school with written guidelines. The only written guidelines I have seen that are comprehensive..." [/b]
I don't know if mine would be useful (being US), but I've offered my plan to members here often. I'm not by any means claiming that it is the best and it certainly has some limitations. I always appreciate feedback on it...
[b] "But again, that does not show the school point by point how to effectively have a peanut free classroom." [/b]
Why would you speculate the reason for this is????? My personal opinion is because they [b]can't [/b]if they use the term "peanut free". It is impossible, so they don't. I am more comfortable having our point by point IHP showing what the school WILL do to protect my dd. It appears far more effective than pursuing the whole "peanut free" label w/ my school.
[b] "I know that Jesse's written school plan is not considered a legally binding document. I know the steps that I would need to take to have it considered one only to also know that the school board's lawyers would NEVER sign it." [/b]
In my opinion, that is why your plan doesn't work (because it is not legally binding). My IHP [b]is [/b]a legally binding document. It has the approval of my school board, and the signatures of my pricipal, my school counselor, my teacher and (most importantly IMO) my full-time licensed school nurse. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[b] "I still think that my raising the topic of liability veered off from the original topic of drugs/guns/peanuts in the schools, but again, as I posted in my original post in this thread, I think I was kinda confused by it all anyway." [/b]
I absolutely disagree. It is impossible for me to talk about one without the other. They are all interconnected to me. I want to show my respect to you be not veering, but my doing so would eliminate me from the discussion. So I am forced to make the choice of veering (and re-directed by you) or bowing out of the discussion.
Cindy, I absolutely want you to be a part of this discussion (all discussions for that matter). But I would like to be a part of discussions too... and the only way that I can do that is by (your definition) "veering". Please "allow" me to "veer".... otherwise I can't participate.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Gail

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:58am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Eric,
peanut-safe? sounds like a safe place for peanuts to me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
I'm not a lot older than you, and we had a part-time nurse at my elementary school, but I doubt if many teachers actually had first aid training - though some gym teachers did.
As for pa kids/parents thinking its safe - we actually did have to deal with that situation when my older kids were in elementary. There was a pa child and the mom wanted peanut-free. I was actually involved in some of the meetings and both the parent and vice-principal actually expected to have a literally peanut-free school. I named 5 products and asked anyone to tell me which were allowed in a peanut-free school. (They only got the Nestle bar right.)
MommaBear, I'm actually rushed, but I will check out your link later.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:09am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]Eric,
peanut-safe? sounds like a safe place for peanuts to me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img][/b]
That's true.... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Actually, I guess I don't really care what it's called... the name makes no difference.. we could call it anything we want - as long as we keep the peanuts out of the classroom with the PA child (assuming that is what the PA family wants)
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
The end goal and result is more important than the name.. as a name is just a name.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:22am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
The end goal and result is more important than the name.. as a name is just a name.
[/b]
I think you might feel differently about the name if you were held accountable for it... and if your license could be revoked.
This is precisely why our school did, in fact, focus on the "end goal" and "result" and didn't take on a (peanut status) "name".
BTW, I realize you don't even have kids... and I think it's very cool you're discussing this... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:34am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Gail W., thank-you for your very kind response to my last post. I appreciate it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
What I was basically trying to say is that I CANNOT get Jesse's written school plan to be a legally binding document here in Ontario. The school board will NOT sign off on it. It's not because it does not adhere to school board policy re anaphylaxis. It does. Each and every point. However, I have been advised by my lawyer that the school would only consider Jesse's written plan "guidelines" (and actually then they're guidelines on how to run a peanut free classroom. He did tell me the procedures I would have to go through to get the written school plan to be *considered* as a legally binding document (quite a bit of paperwork and bureaucracy) only to have the school board REFUSE outright to sign the plan in the end. Not because it doesn't adhere to school board policy but because the school board doesn't want to sign off on it because of liability reasons.
I'm not clear if this was taken to the Ontario Human Rights Commission and PA was deemed a hidden disability very clearly for the school boards of this province, if things might not be different.
My written school plan for Jesse is very similar to 504 Plans posted on this board by both rilira and vic. Both of their 504 Plans are legally binding documents because they're 504 Plans. I'm not clear about 504 Plans since I'm not American, but it's my understanding that they're legally binding because there is almost a whole legal process you have to go through to get one implemented and it also adheres somehow to the Americans with Disabilities Act.
We don't have that here.
I know I posted on the board before what my lawyer said the steps were that I would have to take to get the written school plan considered a legally binding document, and again, only to have the school board NOT sign off on it. I'll try to find the information and post it here.
When I speak with the superintendent re liability of the school, I'll also speak with him about the possibility of Jesse's written school plan being considered a legally binding document and see what he has to say about it.
But no, that's not why my plan isn't working. It has worked successfully for three years.
Do you understand what I'm saying? It is virtually impossible for me to get the school board to sign off on the written school plan even though it adheres to written school board policy re anaphylaxis. That just does NOT happen here in Ontario (and I suspect anywhere in Canada). So that's definitely not why the plan isn't working this year.
I'll see if I can pull off what my lawyer told me the steps would be. These things are always worth a try even if your lawyer has told you very clearly that it would be a waste of your time.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:50am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] I think you might feel differently about the name if you were held accountable for it... and if your license could be revoked.
[/b]
My candy guru license? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I am glad you like having me post on this, as since I don't even have kids I am not as aware of schools as most of you are soI am learning a lot too. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:55am
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Just asking you, Cindy (from curious Gail ) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] :
Do you think that now, after this disucssion and others, that (for [b] Americans [/b])
~ liability is a myth that only the ignorant buy into?
or that
~ you'd have to be a complete moron to think litterally about the term "peanut free"?
Gail

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 2:07am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]~ you'd have to be a complete moron to think litterally about the term "peanut free"?[/b]
Hi Gail,
hmm.. shouldn't this type of talk be moved to the rudeness thread?? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] My rudeness thread has lots of cookie recipes.. it needs more [i]moronic[/i]-type talk! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Anyway.....
[i]My press secretary calls me a moron. I have friends who are morons[/i] - Canadian PM Jean Chretien
(sorry.. couldn't resist!) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 07, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 2:08am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Gail, I did respond, and it hasn't shown up yet. Hmm..... I'll hit my back button and see if I can retrieve the post. At any rate, I did say that I would post what my lawyer had said I would have to do to get Jesse's written school plan to be considered a legally binding document. Of course, this makes little sense if I can't find my last post. However, here is what he said:-
No, in it's present form it's legally worthless and not binding. If anything is would only be considered a guideline.
OR, IF IT IS
NOT A LEGALLY BINDING DOCUMENT IN IT'S PRESENT FORM, WHICH I DOUBT IT IS,
BECAUSE THERE ARE NO SIGNATURES, DATES, ETC., THEN HOW DO I GET IT TO BECOME
ONE?
You would have to get it into a "memorandum of understanding" format, stating all the terms and consequences of the agreement. It would then have to be signed by two school board representatives who actually have signing authority along with yourself, and witnessed by two independent witnesses. The document would then have to be notarized by a Notary Public or a Commissioner for taking oaths. I can assure you that without even asking, your school board would NOT sign such a document.
I'll try to find my previous post to you, Gail W. and perhaps it will show up eventually.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 2:12am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Gail W., good, I did find the post to you where I had said that I would find out what my lawyer had said I would have to do.
As for your post after that directed to me with two questions, I'm going to be completely and utterly honest. I have no idea what either of the two questions mean or what you're trying to ask me so I can't answer them. No idea whatsoever. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img]
Last post, period.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 2:16am
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Hi Cindy,
I think Gail's question refers to an earlier discussion between Anna Marie and Momma Bear and River, but I don't remember the details... regarding peanut-free not being truly peanut-free as a child could bring in a Snicker's bar hidden in his coat, so only a moron would believe peanut-free meant it was impossible for a peanut product to be sneaked in.. or soemthing like that.. actually, it may have been River's post I think? And Anna Marie joked that maybe River said she was a moron?
hmm. I doubt this post will clarify anything but maybe I'll find the old post later and raise it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 2:27am
Gail W's picture
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Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Yes, I am paraphrasing statements that I recall river having made in 2 previous dicussions/threads. I may not have them precisely... but regardless, I'd like to hear your response.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 2:56am
anonymous's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/28/2009 - 16:42

WOW! Has this been busy since I came in last night!
Quote:Originally posted by Cindy:
[b]I enjoy Cam's Mom's threads and I wanted to participate in this one to-day and that's why I blundered in. Perhaps I shouldn't have.[/b]
Thank you Cindy, I too enjoy your threads. And I'm glad that you did add to this discussion b/c your experience and opinions are valued. I hope that you will continue to contribute today as well. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Quote:Originally posted by Erik:
[b]Using the term reduce the risk doesn't say what it means... by saying peanut-free it will emphasize the goal which is to keep the classroom peanut free.
Reduce the risk could refer to anything... car accidents, etc.. by saying it is a peanut-free classroom we emphasize what the goal is.[/b]
My opinion totally.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Gail,
Did you "scream"?
Did you "fight"?
Did you [i]need[/i] to?[/b]
She was very fortunate and amoung very few if she didn't. It is very frustrating and emotionally draining to say the least to deal with the schools...it's a heck of alot easier to pull out and say forget it.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Ah. A fundamental difference in [i]experience[/i]?
In my profession, It is my understanding that I may be held accountable for things I do not see, and am not aware of when they occur.[/b]
Not neccessarily a [i]fundamental difference in experience[/i]....more like a difference in how we put our views to different situations in life. My [i]experience[/i] and liability as a Licensed Realtor is that I am accountable for things that I have knowledge about or that I can visually see, but if I can't see it and have no knowledge it's there than I'm not liable by state law.
However, I don't put my professional knowledge and experience to every detail of every situation...one set of rules can't apply to every situation. Your healthcare experience and standards aren't standards for every situation.
Quote:Originally posted by Gail W.:
[b]Yes, I am paraphrasing statements that I recall river having made in 2 previous dicussions/threads. I may not have them precisely... but regardless, I'd like to hear your response.[/b]
I still believe that the term peanut-free has the same bearing as drug/gun free, no one literally thinks that the place is 100% free of drugs and guns, therefore, why does the general public or the people who use this label want to think differently on the peanut free label. It's a contradictory use of a term when it applies one way to gun/drug free and totally different for the term peanut free.
[This message has been edited by Cam's Mom (edited May 07, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 3:31am
river's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/15/1999 - 09:00

Schools that use the term drug-free in their policies:
[url="http://www.usd458.k12.ks.us/les/handbook/drugfree"]http://www.usd458.k12.ks.us/les/handbook/drugfree[/url]
[url="http://mililaniuka.com/Handbook/HandbookDrugs.asp"]http://mililaniuka.com/Handbook/HandbookDrugs.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.ops.org/fclub/Drug-Free.html"]http://www.ops.org/fclub/Drug-Free.html[/url]
[url="http://www.upson.k12.ga.us/ulsp/handbook22.html"]http://www.upson.k12.ga.us/ulsp/handbook22.html[/url]
[url="http://connect.juilliard.edu/staffhandbook/policies.asp"]http://connect.juilliard.edu/staffhandbook/policies.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.sahuarita.k12.az.us/site/shs/shs_hb/shs_hb2.html"]http://www.sahuarita.k12.az.us/site/shs/shs_hb/shs_hb2.html[/url]
Anyway...it goes on and on and on.
No one is afraid to use the term drug-free because it is always accepted for what it is:
a call for action and a plainly worded expectation
It is not a legal description of the schools and it is not a guarantee.
Why then would this message change when the word 'peanut' is substituted for 'drug'?
"Peanut-free" in an ingredients label is a legal description and guarantee of the product within.
"Peanut-free" on the door of a classroom has the same significance and meaning as the sign beside it that says, "drug-free."
Drug-free gun-free signs:
[url="http://www.street-signs-usa.com/48/cat48.htm?419"]http://www.street-signs-usa.com/48/cat48.htm?419[/url]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 3:46am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]Schools that use the term drug-free in their policies:
[url="http://www.usd458.k12.ks.us/les/handbook/drugfree"]http://www.usd458.k12.ks.us/les/handbook/drugfree[/url]
[url="http://mililaniuka.com/Handbook/HandbookDrugs.asp"]http://mililaniuka.com/Handbook/HandbookDrugs.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.ops.org/fclub/Drug-Free.html"]http://www.ops.org/fclub/Drug-Free.html[/url]
[url="http://www.upson.k12.ga.us/ulsp/handbook22.html"]http://www.upson.k12.ga.us/ulsp/handbook22.html[/url]
[url="http://connect.juilliard.edu/staffhandbook/policies.asp"]http://connect.juilliard.edu/staffhandbook/policies.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.sahuarita.k12.az.us/site/shs/shs_hb/shs_hb2.html"]http://www.sahuarita.k12.az.us/site/shs/shs_hb/shs_hb2.html[/url]
Anyway...it goes on and on and on.
No one is afraid to use the term drug-free because it is always accepted for what it is:
a call for action and a plainly worded expectation
It is not a legal description of the schools and it is not a guarantee.
Why then would this message change when the word 'peanut' is substituted for 'drug'?
"Peanut-free" in an ingredients label is a legal description and guarantee of the product within.
"Peanut-free" on the door of a classroom has the same significance and meaning as the sign beside it that says, "drug-free."
Drug-free gun-free signs:
[url="http://www.street-signs-usa.com/48/cat48.htm?419"]http://www.street-signs-usa.com/48/cat48.htm?419[/url]
[/b]
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gail W:
"First, thank you Lana. I've been frustrated w/ the boards and lost my cool. Thanks for helping me out.
As sarah (williamsmummy) posted today in another thread:
[i]"I feel uncomfortable with nut bans, for nut bans we need nut inspectors!"[/i]
[b]Who are the drug and gun inspectors?
Our government. The school has a higher authority who regulates guns and drugs through licensing and laws. To declare themselves "drug free" or "gun free" doesn't take on any liability because the law places that repsonsibility elsewhere. Schools aren't compelled to take on a regulatory role because our already laws do.
Who are the "nut inspectors"?
Since no licensing or law exists re peanuts (as w/ guns and drugs), the school would be assuming this regulatory role if they took on the "peanut free" claim.
[/b]"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originaly posted by MommaBear:
"[b]HALLELUJAH
HAAAAAAAAAAAAALEL-LU-JAH!
HAAAAAAAAAAALEL-LU-JAH!
HA-LEL-LU-JAH!
HA-LEL-LU-JAH!
HA-LEEEEEEE-EEEEEEEL-LUUUUUUUUUUU-JAH![/b]
[url="http://members.aol.com/nonstopny/easter/messiah.htm#hear%20it%20live"]http://members.aol.com/nonstopny/easter/messiah.htm#hear%20it%20live[/url]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely humming to myself. Loudly."
Your thoughts on this, river? (aside from the musical score........) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 4:01am
anonymous's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/28/2009 - 16:42

IMHO, the "nut inspectors" would be the administration and it's employees of the building/class that the Peanut Free sign was posted outside of. Just like the Gun Free and Drug Free building, whom ever is in charge and their employees are reponsible for their policy.
The state and/or federal government have "rules/policies" for guns and drugs...they are only enforcers...if the school has a peanut free "rule/policy" then its the "law" of the principal, therefore he is the enforcer.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 4:07am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

River, thank you very much for posting the web address for schools that call themselves drug free. I honestly didn't know any did.
As for why a school would feel it's OK to call itself drug free when in reality they cannot guarantee there are no drugs, but don't feel they can do that with peanuts I have an idea.
The schools using the term drug-free are American, whereas peanut bans seem to be in Canada. We don't use the term drug-free that I'm aware of.
There is much more in here I want to comment on, but boy, is my head spinning.
Hi Cindy, you lurker you [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 4:28am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]
The schools using the term drug-free are American, whereas peanut bans seem to be in Canada. We don't use the term drug-free that I'm aware of.[/b]
That is true.
The USA: drug-free schools everywhere but they can't handle the concept of a peanut-free school - maybe a communist conspiracy? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Canada: peanut-free schools everywhere but no drug-free schools.. in fact, the government is about to de-criminalize marijuana (definitely a communist conspiracy?)! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Wonder what George Bush will think of that??!!
Canada and the USA are two distinct entities.
Another example:
We say "icing" (on cake), they say "frosting" (on cake).. ;P
I guess you can't have your cake and eat it too (unless it is peanut-free?)
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 07, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 4:29am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Have you come across this thread?:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000991.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000991.html[/url]
Aside from "first aid training", I am wondering what experience, education, and licensure will facilitate the fullfillment of such "expectations"? Is this a "delegation" issue?
[/b]
Mind if I reply to this under the original thread? Actually, a partial response here, then I'm going to the other thread.
As for *my* expectations, I think first aid training, with a willingness to add specific things as needed (for example epi-training if a student with fa enrolls in the school) is sufficient.
Education: they are teachers, so have a reasonable amount of intelligence and education. Their training is working specifically with children.
Experience: again, they are teachers and have been working with children.
Licence: I *personally* don't feel anything beyond first aid/CPR is necessary.
***I reserve the right to change my opinion based on discussions and future experiences I may have - after all I'm back to square one with the schools - in JK again***

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 6:41am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]
BTW, I realize you don't even have kids... and I think it's very cool you're discussing this... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[/b]
This was said to Eric. I would like to add that I also think it's cool you're discussing this. And I'm also glad that when I disagree with you, you don't take offense. Usually, I'm just [i]trying[/i] to point out that although we live in the same city the different boards did things differently.
Having you here means I can feel OK about coming too. I don't have a pa child, but I do have a son in an *allergy aware* school. I've also been involved in the school system as a parent for 17 years. (Yikes - I've still got 11 to go [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] )

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 6:59am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[BAnd I'm also glad that when I disagree with you, you don't take offense.[/B]
Yes, you can say what you want - no need to walk on eggshells (note I didn't say peanut shellls.. haha).. I will not be offended by your comments or opinions. I find them very interesting and informative.
And I guess since you are in this topic without a PA child, it also means it's ok for me to be here [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 7:10am
river's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/15/1999 - 09:00

I've heard that with the decriminalization of pot, Canadians will be implementing "drug safe zones." They decided on this terminology because when they tested it on various potheads, the standard response was, "Wow man, cool. A place where we're safe to do drugs. Rock on Jean!"
With over 80% believing "drug safe" meant it was a safe place to do drugs, 10% percent believing it meant that it was a safe place to keep their drugs, and another 10% unable to respond because they couldn't remember the question, "drug safe" was considered the most appropriate term. These Zones will be marked with the official cannabis flag which closely resembles the Canadian flag with the exception that all red areas will now be green and the maple leaf of course will be replaced with the cannabis leaf.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 7:13am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Thanks river [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
But since my heads been spinning lately anyway, will you all forgive me if I try posting after walking down the street?

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 8:31am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Gail,
Did you "scream"?
Did you "fight"?
Did you [i]need[/i] to?
I have a difficult time imagining you doing either (also difficult, as I don't know what you look like, but suspect you dress tastefully.........Jones New York? Liz? Anne Klein? D.K.N.Y?) but, hey, I could be wrong.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b]
[b]Scream? [/b] No, definitely not. (The only time I can truly remember screaming in the last 5 years would be today, in the OT thread. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img] ) I can imagine if my pricipal read this, she'd raise her eyebrows and say, "Well, you certainly raised your voice at times." True. It was tense, sometimes very tense, but always civil.
[b]Fight? [/b] My maternal urges definitely [i]felt [/i] like "fight" as opposed to "flight". The whole experience was extremely stressful.
[b]Did I need to? [/b] We are satisfied with the result, and so, feel successful in our approach. I think our situation called for persistence. I needed to be very, very persistent. (The school staff called me "the velvet hammer" remember? I kept hammering... to keep it on their agenda and to keep the process moving along.)
It wasn't an easy, straight forward process. It was exhausting. And I would do some things differently (like get a 504 instead of our IHP).
I'm not claiming that my situation is the best or the only sucessful one by any stretch. And I've even changed my opinions about a couple things that I earlier claimed Mariah needed. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] But we did manage to obtain district guidelines and a legally binding IHP that delineates what the school does (preventively) to keep Mariah safe... including a ban on all food in her classroom.
Gail
BTW, I'm more of a Talbot's woman... but [i] only [/i] on sale. And I don't want or have a lot of clothes. I'm all about "return on investment" (which is why I'm still driving an ugly now-8-year-old teal minivan.) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 8:44am
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]Schools that use the term drug-free in their policies:
[url="http://www.usd458.k12.ks.us/les/handbook/drugfree"]http://www.usd458.k12.ks.us/les/handbook/drugfree[/url]
[url="http://mililaniuka.com/Handbook/HandbookDrugs.asp"]http://mililaniuka.com/Handbook/HandbookDrugs.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.ops.org/fclub/Drug-Free.html"]http://www.ops.org/fclub/Drug-Free.html[/url]
[url="http://www.upson.k12.ga.us/ulsp/handbook22.html"]http://www.upson.k12.ga.us/ulsp/handbook22.html[/url]
[url="http://connect.juilliard.edu/staffhandbook/policies.asp"]http://connect.juilliard.edu/staffhandbook/policies.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.sahuarita.k12.az.us/site/shs/shs_hb/shs_hb2.html"]http://www.sahuarita.k12.az.us/site/shs/shs_hb/shs_hb2.html[/url]
Anyway...it goes on and on and on.
No one is afraid to use the term drug-free because it is always accepted for what it is:
a call for action and a plainly worded expectation
It is not a legal description of the schools and it is not a guarantee.
Why then would this message change when the word 'peanut' is substituted for 'drug'?
"Peanut-free" in an ingredients label is a legal description and guarantee of the product within.
"Peanut-free" on the door of a classroom has the same significance and meaning as the sign beside it that says, "drug-free."
Drug-free gun-free signs:
[url="http://www.street-signs-usa.com/48/cat48.htm?419"]http://www.street-signs-usa.com/48/cat48.htm?419[/url]
[/b]
Yes they use the terms drug-free and gun-free (thank you river, BTW, for finding them).
But did you actually read them? They all use the words "unlawful pocession" and "illicit" and state that they are upholding [b]LAWS [/b].
If you substitute the word "peanut" for the word "firearm" or "drug" (as you suggest), [b]it doesn't work [/b]. These are not comparable.

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:11pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] I'm all about "return on investment" [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
[/b]
[b]obviously[/b] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[i]That and a woman of taste?[/i] (just a hunch-----------Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's "1000 thread count".)
BTW, I'm all about "return on investment" as well. Note my family pic. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] I'd say I have a "sense".

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 12:14pm
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Hey Momma Bear..
I just noticed that I (1439) have more posts than you (1428)... haha
Ok.. back to our regularly scheduled postings..... sorry for the interruption

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:09pm
Gail W's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
Hey Momma Bear..
I just noticed that I (1439) have more posts than you (1428)... haha
Ok.. back to our regularly scheduled postings..... sorry for the interruption [/b]
Erik, you crack me up.
Turtle, turtle,
Gail (692, less than half you two. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] )

Posted on: Wed, 05/07/2003 - 1:13pm
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Cam's Mom:Not neccessarily a fundamental difference in experience....more like a difference in how we put our views to different situations in life. My experience and liability as a Licensed Realtor is that I am accountable for things that I have knowledge about or that I can visually see, but if I can't see it and have no knowledge it's there than I'm not liable by state law.
However, I don't put my professional knowledge and experience to every detail of every situation...one set of rules can't apply to every situation. Your healthcare experience and standards aren't standards for every situation.
[/B]
No. Not every situation. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] But, I'd venture to say I'm in the ballpark. LOL. Can't help it if I find my chosen profession to be [i]enlightening[/i] as well as [i]life oriented[/i].
However, my experience is either based on or has yielded (a chicken or egg deal here...........):
*Some finely honed Critical Thinking Skills [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
*A devotion to Ethical-Moral Principles [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
*A strong Desire to Advocate. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
*As well as a Desire and Ability to help and encourage others to Improve Their Quality and Quantity of Life. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Would you say our experiences [i]fundamentally[/i] different?
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

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One of the most difficult things for a parent to do is determine whether his or her toddler has a cold or a...

You no doubt have your own way of teaching people about your child’s food allergy, a way that suits your temperament, and style of communication....

Reliable peanut allergy statistics are not that easy to come by. There is a lot of available research on food allergies in general but not too...

Most people know that to enjoy whatever food safety accommodations an airline offers they need to inform the airline of their allergy prior to...

A 504 plan* documents food allergy accommodations agreed to by parents and their child’s school. Plans are typically created during a 504 meeting...

If there is a child at your children's school allergic to peanuts, the school probably discourages or may not allow peanut products to be brought...

If you are on a budget, but you need to wear some sort of notification that you have a peanut...

Unless we consciously carve out time for self-care, constant food allergy management can slowly erode our sense of well-being. Signs of allergy-...

Peanuts cause more severe food allergic reactions than other foods, followed by shellfish, fish, tree nuts and eggs. Although there is only a...