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Posted on: Fri, 08/17/2007 - 11:23pm
Gail W's picture
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Our district did not see any financial motivation for putting Mariah's LTFAs under IDEA. The then assist super. described it as "minimal". I'm not saying that's [i]accurate[/i] and it may be completely false. But I believe it is what my [i]SD believes[/i], FWIW.
They seemed more motivated by 'efficiency' and 'ease of administration' of the paperwork. Because Mariah had already qualified for IDEA with a learning disability, I think they were more motivated to include her LTFA as OHI since that system of paperwork was already in place.
The most convincing conversations I've had with my SD as to why LTFAs would qualify under IDEA OHI was when I compared LTFAs to some of the other 12 conditions that automatically qualified. For example, "orthopedic impairment" (not sure if that's the exact term used, forgive me if it isn't) is a qualifying condition. When I would ask, "How does 'orthopedic impairment' eafect a child's ability to learn?" it was pretty clear that "orthopedic impairment" isn't a learning disability per se, but rather a health condition that required accommodations to access the learning environment. Same with "blindness"~ it is the accommodations required that would effect that student's learning or not learning. So how is that any different than a food allergy that also requires accommodations to the school environment so that they may learn? The analogy is pretty straight forward.
While a light bulb or two seemed to turn on, the catch for them seemed to be the funding structure. . . that the accommodations required for LTFAs were not provided by 'special education'. (i.e. A fulltime school RN is not a "service" provided by "Special Education".) And that school nurses would not ever be funded via special ed.
But I think a 1:1 aide could be a different story t hough. For those of you who have a 1:1 aide, you'd have a strong argument for IDEA-OHI designation. You might want to find out how that aide is funded. If it is through special ed, then it would appear that they've already qualified your child under IDEA. If the aide is not funded though special ed, you could ask your school if it made sense for them to utilize the resources/aides via special ed instead of their own budget.
MB, I'm curious: Since 504 plans make accommodations to access the learning environment, do you think [i]all [/i] students/conditions that 'only' qualify under 504 should qualify under IDEA?
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited August 18, 2007).]

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 1:04am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]While a light bulb or two seemed to turn on, the catch for them seemed to be the funding structure. . . that the accommodations required for LTFAs were not provided by 'special education'. (i.e. A fulltime school RN is not a "service" provided by "Special Education".) And that school nurses would not ever be funded via special ed.
[/b]
That's an interesting mindset since my child endured an [i]out of district placement[/i] as designated in an IEP in order to obtain the [i]required[/i] services of a full time school nurse.
edit to add:
this is dated "2001" Might have changed, but I doubt it.
[url="http://www.nichcy.org/pubs/newsdig/nd16txt.htm"]http://www.nichcy.org/pubs/newsdig/nd16txt.htm[/url]
[b]"School Health Services
School health services under the IDEA '97 final regulations means "services provided by a qualified school nurse or other qualified person" [Section 300.24(b)(12)]. These services may be necessary because some children and youth with disabilities would otherwise be unable to attend a day of school without supportive health care. School health services may include interpretation, interventions, administration of health procedures, the use of an assistive health device to compensate for the reduction or loss of a body function (Rapport, 1996), and case management.
Typically, school health services are provided by a qualified school nurse or other qualified trained person who is supervised by a qualified nurse. In some instances, if a school nurse is not employed by a school district, health services may be provided and/or coordinated by a public health nurse, a pediatric home care nurse, or a hospital- or community-based pediatric nurse practitioner or specialist. States and local school districts often have guidelines that address school health services. State agency guidelines that address school health services for special health care needs may address staffing requirements, infection control, medication administration, nursing procedures, classroom modifications, transportation, and policies (Porter, Haynie, Bierle, Caldwell, & Palfrey, 1997).
Possible school health services include:
special feedings;
clean intermittent catheterization;
suctioning;
the management of a tracheostomy;
administering and/or dispensing medications;
planning for the safety of a student in school;
ensuring that care is given while at school and at school functions to prevent injury (e.g., changing a student's position frequently to prevent pressure sores);
chronic disease management; and
conducting and/or promoting education and skills training for all (including the student) who serve as caregivers in the school setting. "[/b]
GD: I am not offering advice, I do not guarantee the accuracy, currentness, content or applicability of the link in this post. IMMV. But why don't you think a school nurse can be a "related service" again?
[This message has been edited by The #l Mouser! (edited August 18, 2007).]

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 4:10am
Gail W's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by The #l Mouser!:
[b]But why don't [i]you [/i]think a school nurse can be a "related service" again?[/b]
I didn't state in my post that a school nurse was or wasn't a "related service". Frankly, I don't know if the position (school nurse) qualifies as a "related serice" or not. <> I think that in our previous discussions on this topic, I've stated that I thought that YES, a school nurse "should" qualify as a "related service". I mean, it makes sense [i]to me[/i].
What I was trying to communicate in my post is that the position of School Nurse is not funded by "special education" in our school district.
I was also trying to convery, that while it is reasonable to assume that my (or any) district would be financially motivated to either define the school nurse as a "related service" or to pursue removing school nurses' salaries from their budgets and seek their funding via "special education", my school district has not been financially motivated as such.
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited August 18, 2007).]

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 4:13am
Gail W's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]MB, I'm curious: Since 504 plans make accommodations to access the learning environment, do you think [i]all [/i] students/conditions that 'only' qualify under 504 should qualify under IDEA?[/b]

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 4:18am
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Anonymous (not verified)

Have to answer one ? you posed gvmom, without reading what transpired after you asked the ? (as far as discussion thereof).
IMPHO and experience, you are treated more seriously if the teacher actually has to say to offending parent - NO, you are not allowed to bring that in our peanut free classroom then you are if you send in a safe treat box. I mean honestly, sending in a safe treat box gives "them" (administration, teacher, school community, even classmates), an automatic "out".
Does that make sense?
It's okay, Jesse's not getting a cupcake because his parents have sent in a safe treat box and he'll be getting something wonderful (reading from what is included in some special treat boxes by parents here) or what I probably would have provided had I ever done so - a box of Smarties. So no, Jesse's okay. He's not doing without. He has something. I can gobble my cupcake now.
I can hand out the cupcakes now because I know that Jesse will get something else. I can keep baking cupcakes and bringing them into the classroom (although it says no food or peanut free food or whatever requirements) because I know the PA kid has a special treat box.
Sorry, you give each and every one of them an out!
I don't know how to make this any clearer.
The children may feel a bit badly for the PA child (I found fellow classmates in early grades to be my son's strongest advocates - even if that meant making enemies with other kids in the class or even their own parents - yes!).
But no, to me, it's an easy out for ALL of them except um, your child.
Sadness about old threads I re-raised, gvmom, a lot of which would be personal, but what struck me the most was the PASSION I had with regard to sorting this stuff out. And being capable of having other people call or e-mail me and help them out (as I was helped by others).
However, I do think that that passion (which I do not think can be replaced), in my son's earliest school years, has made some stuff easier for my guy. He knows what's *right* and *wrong* as far as exclusion and will speak up about it (even that BENCH).
I do have to ponder him entering Grade 7 and a different lunch room this year.
Again, my apologies. I read that one comment/? and that's how I feel.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
There but for the Grace of God, go I.

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 5:25am
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ATM, <<>> to you. You couldn't have said it any better had I been able to find the words myself. My comment on your post is "DITTO".
I was up until 5 this morning, most of that time I was working on 504 stuff, IHP for my other son, Food Allergy Fact sheets for both my boys...... and I just finished talking with DH about what we needed to be ready for school.
On our to do list:
Medical kit bags
Epibelt
Benedryl
Epipens
Wipes to supply for class
Wipes to put in lunch bags, backpacks, etc.
New photos to attach to Emergency Action Plans
Copies of Allergy info for classes
etc., etc. etc........
I told DH that I wished our list was just about new shoes and shirts. If we forgot to get enough pairs of socks or didn't get an extra shirt our kids couldn't end up dead on their first day..... if they go.
How many other parents out there get to have that be their "Back to School" ritual? How many others even have to talk about the ins and outs of whether it will even be possible for their child to attend the first day to begin with?
I'm tired. Lots to do.
But....... again:
[b]It's okay, Jesse's not getting a cupcake because his parents have sent in a safe treat box and he'll be getting something wonderful (reading from what is included in some special treat boxes by parents here) or what I probably would have provided had I ever done so - a box of Smarties. So no, Jesse's okay. He's not doing without. He has something. I can gobble my cupcake now.
I can hand out the cupcakes now because I know that Jesse will get something else. I can keep baking cupcakes and bringing them into the classroom (although it says no food or peanut free food or whatever requirements) because I know the PA kid has a special treat box.
Sorry, you give each and every one of them an out!
[i]I don't know how to make this any clearer.[/i][/b]
Yes. Ditto.
And:
[b]Sadness about old threads I re-raised, gvmom, a lot of which would be personal, but what struck me the most was the PASSION I had with regard to sorting this stuff out. And being capable of having other people call or e-mail me and help them out (as I was helped by others).
However, I do think that that passion (which I do not think can be replaced), in my son's earliest school years, has made some stuff easier for my guy. He knows what's *right* and *wrong* as far as exclusion and will speak up about it (even that BENCH).[/b]
Another, yes. My personal sadness with this journey I know isn't near the same as what yours is... given all that you've had to go through and continue to personally... but I worry about the passion. I have it... and then I don't. It is a wax and wane. I think if I had more support in life it might make things go on a more even keel. It is just not to be though. My resignation to that reality is what deflates me many times. Showing my children what is right and wrong, taking a stand, living according to the principles you espouse.... those are things that re-energize me.
Self preservation will help motivate them through their lives, but I'd like to think that they'd end up with a passion for it, finding their inner advocate. I think that can end up being a much more positive force in a persons life.
But what do I know?

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 8:23am
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Is Claremont close to you, gvmom?
[url="http://www.claremont-courier.com/pages/Topstory081807.2.html"]http://www.claremont-courier.com/pages/Topstory081807.2.html[/url]

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 8:43am
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Even if it isn't... there are public cybercharters operating in your area, I'm pretty sure. Feel free to e-mail me if you are interested.
([i]IF[/i] ... and I do hope it doesn't come to that for you.... [i]IF[/i] safety simply cannot be had in a B+M setting at any cost. Hey-- sometimes it happens, and it just doesn't matter how many things you do right, you can't make all the school's 'wrongs' go away. Look at what happened to b+bmom last year.)
I've wondered if I don't have bipolar problems sometimes.... Jeez- sometimes I just want to curl up on my sofa with a cup of coffee and stare out the window I feel so tired of dealing with it all.... and other times I'm spitting fire, making my sandwich boards up in my mind, writing letters to elected officials, fighting for inclusion at all kinds of public places, and planning to picket the governor's office personally for as long as it takes... LOL! I guess what I'm saying is that fighting 'the man' takes it out of you in ways that you don't always anticipate or see coming.
I was sadly considering my own pathetic 'back to school' ritual the other day, as well... (while on hold with someone) and thinking fondly of truly homeschooling again. Kind of. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
{{hugs}} gvmom.

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 9:24am
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Gail, Claremont isn't near me, but a neighboring district did decide to no longer dispense peanut butter. Can't really think of all the details right now, but it was along the lines of the Saluda thing.... right.... schools shouldn't be giving out the PB because it shouldn't be giving out a substance that could kill it's students..... or something like that.
And you know, CM, I did look into cyber schools after reading one of your threads I think it was. Anyway, the one that I thought sounded like a winner didn't serve my area. *WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA*
Thanks for the hugs too. I need them today. We decided to try PB on our younger guy, so that if he really was allergic the first reaction wouldn't be at school. (RAST & skin tests have been negative)
Anyway, we are all set up outside. Dogs on leashes, older DS (PA/TNA) nervousing at a safe distance away. We start with a bit on his skin first. Get through that. I'm wiping off his arm -- and I have to say, for those that say they are careful who don't live with PA, or even do but allow PB & such, forget about it. I could have been proceeding with such caution an outsider would have thought I was dealing with a caustic material. I wiped his arm not thinking I even touched any of the small smear with my finger, only the kleenex, but when I opened the wipe to wipe the area, lo and behold some PB came off of my index finger onto the wipe! Had I not touched that wipe directly after doing what I had done, I never would have thought I got PB on my finger, let alone enough to leave the visible mark on the wipe. Pretty wild.
So, what's the point? I move to step 2. Give a miniscule amount for ingestion. No sooner had we given him that then our older son happened to be near a plant and gets stung by a bee for the first time!!!! He's freaking a bit... but the rest of us are all immersed in the PB process! UGH! (BTW, it is ironic that his younger brother also got stung for the first time earlier this week. I guess we are working our way through the allergen list this week. Even more ironic if it lets us know some key info for being at school only for them not to be able to go! HA HA HA HA *laughing hysterically* *losing my mind*)
So, all in all, today went okay with the PB test. We will give him another bit tomorrow to see. I was concerned about some small little spot of excema on his cheek, which I thought changed color a bit. DH didn't think it did. For me it could have been one of those things like what happens if you look at your eyebrows too long in the mirror. Instead of looking nicely shaped, they start to look like caterpillars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And I can sense that I'm rambling on now. I'm sure anyone reading is getting the gist... of something... and if you figure out what it is, let me know.
I think I might go look into that staring out the window with a cup of coffee thing.............

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 9:26am
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My August is a tense month. I am getting ready for this problem too. My child goes to a Waldorf school and birthdays are more of a celebration than you know. It is totally sweet. The children each are asked to bring in a flower for the birthday child or a gift from nature. (a good non - food idea). They also all color a page for a birthday book for the child. The child wears a silk cape and lights a candle and their birth story from age 0 to five is read to the class. The parents are there and they then serve that dreaded b-day treat. I let my kid eat it this year and we did okay but I am aghast at how risky it was when I think of all the people who did not call me and the misunderstandings there were about the allergy.
I can just about forget insisting on ingredient labels. EVERYTH-
ING is homemade, organic. They'd run in horror from processed foods from the store.
So, I was wondering if they could change the treat to cupcakes made and decorated in class. That way the ingredients would be controlled. Just a thought. Parents could bring fruit and cheese? Could the birthday cake be a class project? Not every class has an oven but ... its a thought. I hope my teacher does not take the suggestion the wrong way.
I can forget non food treats -- stickers and tatoos are banned. I don't think every parent is up to knitting and carving for twenty kids.
But maybe some of you who would like non-food treats could suggest the nature gift. In the winter they'd get evergreens and dried flowers, sticks with pretty stones glued on and the occasional rose from the florist -- it did make a stunning gift.
Well, I geuss I'd opt for a treat box. I did not this past year because I cannot stand for my child to be excluded. However, he still heard a ton about his allergy, was teased some, and is preoccupied with it. Even if he can have the cupcake --- the darned thing is still always there. Still -- what child wants to be left out.
People cannot let go of the cupcake because face it - we all relive our own childhoods through our children -- and arent they supposed to get cupcakes in school on their birthdays, darn it?

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 12:36pm
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[b]However, as some other posters have mentioned, teachers will make mistakes in this imperfect world of elementary school. So for us, snack box = safety net. DS finds it comforting to have a safety net so he can consume food with confidence when a food situation presents itself. Certainly he has preferred it to the alternative of exclusion, which I still contend, would happen more often than not, realistically.[/b]
Our situation is living proof of teachers making very serious label reading mistakes, and myself being at the right place at the right time to catch it. So I completely understand that the snack box serves as a great safety net. But one can still go in and read every label....a you get inclusion, plus safety, because you know perfectly well your chances of missing an allergen on a label is next to zero. YWIM? Of course there would have to be alot of supporting accomodations involved...if the food is not safe for all (as deemed by the parent) then it doesn't get served.
Just a thought...

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 12:42pm
Corvallis Mom's picture
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Quote:
...I think I might go look into that staring out the window with a cup of coffee thing.............
Well, confidentially, we now have an aquarium. Staring at the Neon Tetras strikes other people as a whole lot less 'weird' and nobody thinks I need medicating for my depression now. LOL! (I'm not depressed... I'm angst-ridden, cynical, and bitter. Big difference.)
gvmom-- you might put some feelers out about an out-of-district placement at CenCA or CapoCA. Find out if the reasoning behind the geographical restrictions is CA [i]or local schools that don't want to lose student funding when kids leave their B+M schools.[/i] I strongly suspect it is the latter... which means they might, ummmmm, I dunno-- [i]make an exception for YOU.[/i]
C.A. knows how school and LTFA works now and has a Hx of doing 504 plans. (We've taught them as we've gone.) Wouldn't hurt to call the 800 number and find out the scoop, anyway.
Or maybe your state legislator..... heheheh. To 'inquire' about these geographical restrictions that really don't make any sense whatsoever.... since you have the internet where you are-- IMAGINE! And it seems like [i]such[/i] a good option.
Sounds like you've had quite the week-- LOL about the 'surgical' approach to the quick and dirty pn challenge on your younger DC, though. Naturally, that's when older DC would get stung. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] How could it have been any other way?? (You can just add another bark of ironic laughter there, too.)
I know it's August, but somehow I always feel a lot better when I watch the ever-Quixotic Chevy Chase in [i]Christmas Vacation.[/i] Now [i]there's[/i] cinematic potential for an FA story if ever there were one. Be a pretty black comedy, though... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] "Ho-ley-Sh**-where's-the-Tylenol!!" A sentiment we can all embrace.

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 2:58pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

gvmom, I'm glad you understood what I said. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
I know that even if Jesse would not speak up on his behalf in earlier grades, other children (non-PA) would. They'd say to the teacher - hey, this food isn't okay for the "peanut free" classroom or so and so has something they should have in the classroom. Remembering, at that time, when Jess was first in school and up until this school, they ate snack and lunch in the classroom.
Of course, not that you necessarily say it this way, but some perception I'm feeling that if we are *vocal* advocates in some way we must be witchy people (replace w with b), it's not like when I went into the Grade 3 classroom to check the food, I told the teacher to "get the f/n unsafe food out of the f/n classroom". It doesn't come out that way - it doesn't come out coarse - it comes out firm. Could you please remove the offending food or this is going to happen.......
Again, I have to re-iterate that I firmly believe my *passion* with Jesse in JK, SK, Grades 1, 2 and even that horrible 3 (and me apologizing to him for what I *should* have done with the OHRC and didn't on his behalf) is what made my guy tell me about the peanut free BENCH at school and that he was not comfie with it and could I work with the principal about it.
I truly believe that if I had not shown any *advocacy* (and is that really the correct word?) when he was younger, he would have thought that it was *okay* for him to be at the BENCH, not only excluded from his classmates entirely (in a totally different room with Grade 7 and 8 kids) but at a BENCH with PA children only - all at different grade levels. It was NOT okay.
Yet, in a school that had dealt with PA children before, not one PA child or PA parent had complained to the office about the BENCH. It was like, what?
Does that mean I have some bold little bugger of a kid on my hand who speaks up about his allergy and his rights? No! He's still my guy, KWIM? But I think he does know that if something is not sitting well with him, with regard to his allergy, at school (or elsewhere really), he knows that he can talk to me about it and I will try my best to either do what I have to do or tell him what he has to do.
I truly believe people have to get the point. The rules. What is written down. What is law for that classroom. How many times does it take to turn away the Cupcake Queens before they "get it"? I imagine quite a few, but still.
And I do find with those *type* of people (and remember, I'm not jealous, because I did post about how I would take in made from scratch, yes ma'am, carrot muffins when Jess was in JK and SK and recognized that *my* behaviour was not okay); they tend not to confront you because well, you're not one of them to begin with. They may mumble and grumble amongst themselves, but what does that matter.
Then, when they do decide that they're oh so furious that this is happening and dear little Johnny didn't get a cupcake at school on his birthday and all his classmates did not get to recognize his birthday and oh my soul, that's going to ruin his life, because well, he's so special, he's entitled, and a simple (or not simple even) birthday party with friends and/or family isn't just good enough anymore these days; they go to administration and administration (or teacher) once they really realize the ramifications of violating a 504 Plan they will actually stand by you and say that I'm sorry, but it is not okay for a child to DIE under my watch simply because your child had a birthday.
It HAS been done. It is do-able.
Principals in most of Jesse's schools when he was young (and the superintendent in the one school board district) had two great one-liners that they gave to parents who called to complain. I forget them because it's late and I'm tired.
What are you telling your child when you are saying that what they eat is more important than another child's life?
There was another one. I'll try to remember.
Yes, that back-to-school list - very different than non-PA childrens' family's, eh?
Since Jesse is at the same school again, I actually whittle away at that stuff, if that makes sense.
But no, I'm glad you understood what I meant.
Now, I am off to Google the movie Fur - a fictional account of the life of photographer Diane Arbus. I just watched it and I'm trying to figure some stuff out.
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
There but for the Grace of God, go I.

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 4:11pm
anonymous's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]
What I was trying to communicate in my post is that the position of School Nurse is not funded by "special education" in our school district.
[/b]
Wonder if an additional nurse, above and beyond the positions already filled (you have 2?) would be. You know, to match the patie....population acuity. Sorry, slipping off into professional speak...last I recall, there *are* recommendations and staffing ratios related to school nurses.

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 4:44pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]
MB, I'm curious: Since 504 plans make accommodations to access the learning environment, do you think [i]all [/i] students/conditions that 'only' qualify under 504 should qualify under IDEA?
[/b]
If they also fall under one of the 13 qualifying categories I don't feel 504 should be an option [b]period[/b].
That if they are addressed (and you know how I feel about the obligation to address certain "known" issues---pretty dissapointed by a blip in a recent threads), and at that point, the IEP Process *IS* what is appropriate.
Whether people are intimidated by certain domains in a "full case study" or not. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
And as I understand it, and I could be wrong, maybe every child doesn't get a "full case study". Even tho I've always walked in to our IAP meetings counting on getting one. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
I feel this way, whether a school district likes to say they have so many (or little) "special education" needs children or not. Do you think there is a tendency for schools, or at least some school districts, to desire to under-represent those numbers?
What are your thoughts?

Posted on: Sat, 08/18/2007 - 11:05pm
Gail W's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by The #l Mouser!:
If they also fall under one of the 13 qualifying categories I don't feel 504 should be an option [b]period[/b].[/B]
What would be some examples of conditions that would qualify under 504 and not under IDEA-OHI?

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 12:04am
Gail W's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by The # I Mouser!:
My superintendent offerred it to us.
Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
Is that based solely on your child(s) FA's?

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 1:41am
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I really feel to have the same question reposted again and again, with no acknowledgement offered to the previous replies, after it's been answered ad nauseum, devalues the previous replies. So, if my honest answer is going to be flat out rejected, then I might as well go back to "Off Topic".
But hey, here's my chance to add:
Gail, the idea of each disability being "individual" to the person it affects is stressed under IDEA. Off the cuff, and a bit tongue in cheek, I also tend to believ that "individuality" might include the individual [i]moxy[/i] of each parent? [i]Your mother better love ya.[/i]
When I took my children home, (separate occassions) I was ready to suffer the consequences of keeping them safe. Of prioritizing "health and safety". Those consequences included the responsibility of educating them myself. Lucky for me it worked out, huh?
But I tend to be an optimist. I think the revision of the OHI definition for IDEA 2004 widens the net for many individuals who might otherwise not qualify. And might even possibly [i]limit[/i] whose eligible for protection under 504 if a school district is so inclined to enforce the idea that if an individual qualifies for both, they can require that if coverage is provided, it be delivered under IDEA, not 504. Make sense?
It's my understanding a major factor into revising the definition of OHI for 2004 IDEA involved including "ADHD". I also don't think, for example, a simple "Asthma" diagnoses automatically qualifies. But I think, it is prudent, if not obligatory, that when those conditions are [i]red flagged[/i], made known, potential consequences of their existence be ruled out.
No advice, but is that more what you are looking for?

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 4:15am
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[b]I really feel to have the same question reposted again and again, with no acknowledgement offered to the previous replies, after it's been answered ad nauseum, devalues the previous replies. So, if my honest answer is going to be flat out rejected, then I might as well go back to "Off Topic".[/b]
Here's the point. And really, I don't want this to always end up into a spiraling downward argument about IDEA/IEP and 504. Of course, that always seems to be what happens.
But, the reason why you keep being asked if the offer was based solely on your childs FA's is because you never answer a direct yes or no. There always appears to be a big dance around. YES or NO?
And it is that simple. If why your children were offered the IDEA/IEP designation was based solely on their FA's, then you should be able to say it. Citing policy, etc., doesn't answer the question, posed TO YOU .... it isn't about hearing qualifying statements, analogies, legal connecting of the dots..... it is about a single word answer. Easy. Clean. Neat. Surgical.
I personally think, and I could be wrong, that you can't say that because there are always other mitigating circumstances that get your foot in the door aren't there? Given all of your interactions with your circumstances, you can't really be sure.
My children do not have anything else that qualifies them in a way that the people I would be dealing with, and probably the people most would be dealing with, that would be viewed as legitimate reasons for any designation of any sort (like asthma, autism, LD's, etc.) I understand why IDEA/IEP could qualify it NOW.... but when I started this process, and up until recently, it seemed far fetched to me even. And I am by far not as versed, or even remotely close, as you guys here. Think about who many of us are having to connect the dots for when dealing with getting a 504 in place. AND THAT HAS LANGUAGE FOR US EVEN.
We go round and round and round again here. WE ALL DON'T EVEN AGREE.
Getting our district to believe, or even concede due to just a legality not because they truly endorse the legitimacy, could be described as being akin to getting an atheist to believe in God. It isn't going to happen. The most you might get is to turn them into an agnostic...... barring a miracle other than seeing Jesus in a potato chip.
If you have to connect too many dots, jump through too many hoops, it becomes too much of a stretch, NO MATTER HOW RIGHT YOU ARE... and you will end up with nothing. Which at its heart is good for the moral stand, but a 504 will cover my children, has language for LTFA's and is closer to something a donkey will recognize than IDEA/IEP.
Bottom line is, I believe the 504 is applicable to my children. In some senses, depending on how things go, I even believe an IDEA/IEP would be applicable to my other son too. BUT THAT IS BECAUSE I LIVE WITH IT ALL DAY LONG EVERY DAY. I would never be able to get the subtlety across to anyone who also doesn't live that way -- and I'm talking about severe chronic excema. No child will be learning anything if they are itching, bloody and gooped up...... and if certain things aren't done, or are allowed to be done, in school, then that is the way my younger guy will spend his days.
BUT.... all that being said.......
I think that always having this discussion, this same fight, without a single person who said that they approached the school, asked for a IDEA/IEP designation solely for their child with FA's and got it, or was offered it, will always give rise to the question about the possibility because the remoteness of qualification is even in the back of many people's minds even with 504's, which have even clearer language.
Plus, we ask, and want to know from a person who has gotten IDEA/IEP for LTFA's based solely on FA's because we want to be able to ask the next obvious question: HOW DID YOU DO IT?
Mitigating circumstances cloud the data and make the end resulting data come into question.
Now, I have a question, I can't say why I'm asking it, but........ what is the biggest list of people you've cc'd with communication during your 504 process, the highest ranking official cc'd in your process, and Gail, if you are reading along and around, can you email me?

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 4:41am
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Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]I really feel to have the same question reposted again and again, with no acknowledgement offered to the previous replies, after it's been answered ad nauseum, devalues the previous replies. So, if my honest answer is going to be flat out rejected, then I might as well go back to "Off Topic".[/b]
Here's the point. And really, I don't want this to always end up into a spiraling downward argument about IDEA/IEP and 504. Of course, that always seems to be what happens.
But, the reason why you keep being asked if the offer was based solely on your childs FA's is because you never answer a direct yes or no. There always appears to be a big dance around. YES or NO?
there is a much more polite way to "re-ask". It starts with acknowledging the person has already, or possiby multiple times, attempted an answer.
Quote:[b]And it is that simple. If why your children were offered the IDEA/IEP designation was based solely on their FA's, then you should be able to say it. Citing policy, etc., doesn't answer the question, posed TO YOU .... it isn't about hearing qualifying statements, analogies, legal connecting of the dots..... it is about a single word answer. Easy. Clean. Neat. Surgical.
I personally think, and I could be wrong, that you can't say that because there are always other mitigating circumstances that get your foot in the door aren't there? Given all of your interactions with your circumstances, you can't really be sure.[/b]
and I feel I've went out of my way to explain that. How do I know what my super was thinking (and I also explained it really wasn't an "offer", but merely a [i]suggestion[/i]. I've explained there was a lot of muck going on, possibly some intradistrict retalliation or forwarning....what do I know? I've also explained many times, that I've asked my contacts in the district if my OHI would "stand alone" (as I suspect it would) if they were to drop his other labels. There has been a resounding "yes". I've even asked in email. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img] Yes, you are right, it's no simple "yes" or "no" answer, and apparently *you* understand that. Thank you for reassuring me you understand. I didn't know I wasn't supposed to apologize for not having a yes or no answer, I've never sold it as a yes or no, I think people just were hoping it was. Maybe ticked *at me* that it wasn't.
Quote:[b]My children do not have anything else that qualifies them in a way that the people I would be dealing with, and probably the people most would be dealing with, that would be viewed as legitimate reasons for any designation of any sort (like asthma, autism, LD's, etc.) I understand why IDEA/IEP could qualify it NOW.... but when I started this process, and up until recently, it seemed far fetched to me even. And I am by far not as versed, or even remotely close, as you guys here. Think about who many of us are having to connect the dots for when dealing with getting a 504 in place. AND THAT HAS LANGUAGE FOR US EVEN.[/b]
have you taken a look at the last few links I've posted? If you ever want to talk over the phone, email me. That's an honest, almost desperate offer to be of some value here. I risk sounding ridiculous to offer at this point, but I don't care.
Quote:[b]
Getting our district to believe, or even concede due to just a legality not because they truly endorse the legitimacy, could be described as being akin to getting an atheist to believe in God. It isn't going to happen. The most you might get is to turn them into an agnostic...... barring a miracle other than seeing Jesus in a potato chip.[/b]
again, let me know if you ever want a phone conversation.
Quote:[b]If you have to connect too many dots, jump through too many hoops, it becomes too much of a stretch, NO MATTER HOW RIGHT YOU ARE... and you will end up with nothing. [/b]
then I'm living proof of miracles.
Quote:[b]Which at its heart is good for the moral stand, but a 504 will cover my children, has language for LTFA's and is closer to something a donkey will recognize than IDEA/IEP. [/b]
I've always felt my school took the IEP process more seriously, (and demonstrated so) but I could be wrong. And since we've often considered moving to a bigger more affordable home, I like that it is transferable...
Quote:[b]Plus, we ask, and want to know from a person who has gotten IDEA/IEP for LTFA's based solely on FA's because we want to be able to ask the next obvious question: HOW DID YOU DO IT?[/b]
phone call...? (stop making that face)
Quote:[b]Mitigating circumstances cloud the data and make the end resulting data come into question.[/b]
aren't there ALWAYS mitigating circumstances?
Quote:[b]Now, I have a question, I can't say why I'm asking it, but........ what is the biggest list of people you've cc'd with communication during your 504 process, the highest ranking official cc'd in your process, and Gail, if you are reading along and around, can you email me?
[/b]
As dense as I am, I get the increasing suspicion I'm more of an annoyance than having contributed anything real here. A simple "yes or no" should confirm...

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 6:15am
gvmom's picture
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[b]there is a much more polite way to "re-ask". It starts with acknowledging the person has already, or possiby multiple times, attempted an answer.[/b]
At a certain point though, standing on ceremony amongst all of us seems ridiculous. And, if the attempt to answer, given the question, can

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 8:48am
Corvallis Mom's picture
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I agree, gvmom....I'd go so far as to say
[i]Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.[/i]
So I think that my two terms are "stupidity and.... of people." well, the second one is S.....NESS. I suppose selfishness works there, too. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] (For anyone who hasn't been to the Longshoreman's School of Ettiquette (TM) like me.)

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 9:02am
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Quote:Originally posted by ajas_folks:
[b] Insisting on a a basic, inclusive, and CONSISTENT policy of [i] food if it's only completely safe for everyone [/i] is HARDLY asking for a protection that "serves no purpose"! We are talking about "special" celebrations and food in the classroom, NOT required meals and required daily nutrition. And if the BASIC purpose is to keep my son fundamentally ALIVE, then does that not serve a bonafide purpose??
I guess what I really want to know at this point is, when are WE as a food allergy community going to be willing to QUIT APOLOGIZING to EVERYBODY ELSE for INCONVENIENCING THEM with our OUR MEDICAL NEEDS?? W.H.E.N.???
I will take the resentment of 10,000,000 other families if it means my son comes home to me at the end of the school day ALIVE.
~Elizabeth
[/b]
Please go back and reread my post. You have quoted me out of context. I said that in our situation asking the entire class to bring in safe treats would be moot because we would [b]never[\b] allow DD to eat them. That's our rule for her at her current age and I don't foresee that changing for a number of years. My only request is that the treat not include nuts, but if it includes eggs that's not a big deal because she's not going to eat it.
Please don't quote me out of context to make some point that had nothing to do with what I posted. Of course, we all have the same goal and that's to keep our children safe. I don't disagree with that. I'm also not going to say that you can't take your approach but I do think it might make accommodating children with MFAs less palatable to the parents of non-allergic children and could possibly exclude your child further (every child in his/her class is going to know that they can't have treats that other classes have because of your child).
I am fortunate to be in a school system, that while not perfect, does a lot of good things as standard practice. There are no peanut-free tables so there's no exclusion there: Children with allergies are seated with their class at one end of the table buffered from the kids who bring lunch by kids who get hot lunch (which has no peanut products). No nut products are served in the cafeteria. For birthday celebrations, parents can order Scribblers popsicles instead of bringing in cupcakes, but this is optional. Cupcakes (at least for kindergartners) were doled out at snack, which was served in the cafeteria. Signs are prominently displayed on each classroom with a peanut-allergic child to indicate that no nuts are allowed in the class. DD's teacher contacted me ahead of time about a lesson involving food (the were learning about the senses and sour, sweet, etc.) to let me know what they were using and I sent in safe items for DD. Also, DD's teacher last year allowed her to have her Epi in her backpack (in addition to the one in the office) so that one would be closer to the class and so that DD would have it for the bus to day care; this was allowed despite the fact that legally DD cannot carry it because her allergist has not signed off on her to self-administer. When we did have an issue both the teacher and principal were very responsive.
There were still hiccups (the candy cane) and instances of not always being informed about b-day celebrations beforehand (but that was often because parents just showed up with cupcakes without informing the teacher beforehand). However, the school year went well and I expect next year to be good as well. As I said, we're lucky. To me it's about balance. I'm more likely to drive hard on an issue like the teacher giving DD a candy cane than about birthday celebrations.
[This message has been edited by ceross (edited August 19, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by ceross (edited August 19, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by ceross (edited August 19, 2007).]

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 9:54am
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gvmom, no quotes, no nothing. If you think the district in an out of district placement handed us an IEP, think again.
Putting my child back in school, getting that designation, nearly tore the life out of me. It was around the same time my younger son's label was dropped and that whole train chugged to a stop.
And yes, in first grade, we began with requesting accommodation under [b]Section 504[/b]. Several months into it and many meetings where the district lawyer was present (who had a reputation of "handling" parents such as my husband and myself) -- we pulled our child (considering the principal had told us: You should homeschool your child.)
And no, we didn't have a lawyer, I couldn't find one who didn't laugh the idea of a 504 for a food allergy out of their office). That's not saying it's laughable, just saying how it was received. Not sure I would have been able to afford one either. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] But necessity is the mother of invention, right?
Near the end of the first half of the year, I pulled my son, having not obtained a suitable 504 (or IEP), and soon afterwards the district lawyer threatened us in writing, 3 pages long, with State mediated action, and a full case study [i]not limited in scope[/i] if we ever dared enroll our child in district-wide programming again. Not sure what "district-wide" means. (I withdrew him that time instead of merely witholding his attendance.)
But to translate her words, insisting on the IEP process beginning in a hostile environment----don't think she was as interested in my child's well being as harrassing us----in the midst of the derailed 504 and an IEP that never got off the ground. I've been to both parties, at th same time, the IEP back in first grade happening after, but during the 504, and with the same child, so you can't say we entered into the IEP process [i]untainted[/i]. Fresh. Clean. We were tarnished. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
And I will say, when we arrived [i]two years later[/i] for the IEP meeting, the reception had a far more distinct air of professionalism than did that of the 504. Actually, the initial meeting involved the team deciding which would better address the health impairment, 504 or IEP. I'm trying to remember if it took more than one meeting to get past that point. I'm pretty sure it took several. Some not quite "official". A mistake I'll never make again. All I know is there was a question of whether overtime would be paid to those in attendance at the "official" meetings, and we always started early morning...
I'm not promoting anything. I'm just telling you where I've been. Trust me, I have the scars to prove it.
So, 504, can I post excerps from letters addressed to me, from lawyers? They are my posession, am I legally allowed to do that?

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 11:59am
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Quote:Originally posted by The #l Mouser!:
[b] If you think the district in an out of district placement handed us an IEP, think again.
[/b]
adding: We had to digest and navigate three squirming systems at once. [b]Our[/b] district. The [b]"out of district placement"[/b] district. AND the [b]Joint Co-operative.[/b] All trying to dodge: "Why has this child ,who was identified as needing a case study [i]TWO YEARS AGO[/i], been out of school??? And everyone on the defensive. And a lawyer for *them* on the opposing side. Talk about mixing strategy and anticipating conflicts of interest. We had *three* conference tables connected. I'm so glad that's behind me.....
Did I mention that my younger son's educational needs were paralleling his older brother the whole time, (same home district and Co-op), and we had to split our efforts between them? The final outcome of my older son's plan held a double jeopardy for my family.
So, if you think I'm fervent about this, you're right. Can't help being elated whenever I get to add to these discussions. Call it promoting, I call it [i]celebrating[/i]. I feel like Abraham when he saw the ram.

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 1:10pm
anonymous's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]
Fool me once, shame on you, food me twice, shame on me. I

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 10:05pm
Gail W's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by The #l Mouser!:
If they also fall under one of the 13 qualifying categories I don't feel 504 should be an option period.
That if they are addressed (and you know how I feel about the obligation to address certain "known" issues---[b]pretty dissapointed by a blip in a recent threads[/b]), and at that point, the IEP Process *IS* what is appropriate. [/B]
What 'blip'? a blip *I* made?

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 10:40pm
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Okay. I think I know. . . You believe I made a reference to your cub's "known" "issues".
FYI, my 16 yo nephew (who happens to live in your state) has " 'known' issues" including ADHD and orthopedic impairment. For which he has an IEP. No slyness on my part, ever so or otherwise. I wasn't referring to you or yours. I was referring to me and mine. No need to be "disappointed". Again. <>

Posted on: Sun, 08/19/2007 - 11:23pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]Okay. I think I know. . . You believe I made a reference to your cub's "known" "issues".
FYI, my 16 yo nephew (who happens to live in your state) has " 'known' issues" including ADHD and orthopedic impairment. For which he has an IEP. No slyness on my part, ever so or otherwise. I wasn't referring to you or yours. I was referring to me and mine. No need to be "disappointed". Again. <>[/b]
I did previously mention how I feel about reposting questions, but the blip I referenced isn't about [i]you[/i]. It's not about anyone, but rather circumstances and how much work there is to be done. Gvmom has indicated in so many words to me, it would be more helpful if certain discussions were abated. Let's not invent one that doesn't exist. The blip isn't about you.

Posted on: Mon, 08/20/2007 - 2:19am
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Oh, this is my first time back in this thread after days away, and I have nothing to add. But let me thank everyone for the book titles on page six. So glad I didn't have any tea in my hand (or throat) at that point.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 08/20/2007 - 4:04am
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Quote:Originally posted by The #l Mouser!:
. . . but the blip I referenced isn't about [i]you[/i].
Thank you for clarifying.
Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
I think the concept of the SCHOOL (not the parent of the FA child) providing the alternative safe substitute treat is viable.
and later:
Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
Why is it the responsibility of the *parent* to provide a safe substitution so that their child will not be excluded? Do schools exclude children with other disabilites unless the parent provides a substitute 'something' that allows their child to participate?
Well, after reviewing my FAAN newsletter this morning, it seems to me that FAAN believes it is the responsibility of the *parent* of the child with LTFAs. On page 3, there is a blue highlighted "Safe Food Tips" box that states,
[i] [b]Safe food Tips[/b][/i]
[i]Here are are some tips to help ensure that safe foods are brought to class:
*Send in safe treats for the entire class.
*Volunteer to organize the party.
*Suggest that parents contribute to a "party fund," and you volunteer to be the designated shopper.
*Suggest that all treats brought to school be packaged foods with ingredient labels.[/i]
Does that bother anyone else? While all those are certainly possible "tips", I *wish* FAAN would present the counter-balance to their "tips" by stating (remember, this is only a wish list) such ideas as:
*Secure that only *safe* treats will be allowed to be distributed in your child's classroom via a 504 plan or IEP.
*Show them FAAN's position statment supporting food-free classroom celebrations.
* Show them the link on FAAN's webite of school's that have successfully banned certain allergens from the classroom.
*Show them FAAN's model school board policy requiring all treats brought to school must be packaged foods with ingredient labels.
I mean, wouldn't it feel great to read that?
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited August 20, 2007).]

Posted on: Mon, 08/20/2007 - 4:18am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Thank you for clarifying.
[/b]
I bumped a thread for you in Main before you posted. It's nice to have your feelings acknowledged (whether they are justified or not) and cleared up, isn't it? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 08/20/2007 - 4:31am
Gail W's picture
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[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 08/20/2007 - 1:14pm
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gvmom, you have given me alot to think about with this thread. What you say makes sense. I only hope it works for you. I feel horrible that your school is doing this to your family.

Posted on: Mon, 08/20/2007 - 3:44pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Well, after reviewing my FAAN newsletter this morning, it seems to me that FAAN believes it is the responsibility of the *parent* of the child with LTFAs. On page 3, there is a blue highlighted "Safe Food Tips" box that states,
[i] [b]Safe food Tips[/b][/i]
[i]Here are are some tips to help ensure that safe foods are brought to class:
*Send in safe treats for the entire class.
*Volunteer to organize the party.
*Suggest that parents contribute to a "party fund," and you volunteer to be the designated shopper.
*Suggest that all treats brought to school be packaged foods with ingredient labels.[/i]
Does that bother anyone else? While all those are certainly possible "tips", I *wish* FAAN would present the counter-balance to their "tips" by stating (remember, this is only a wish list) such ideas as:
*Secure that only *safe* treats will be allowed to be distributed in your child's classroom via a 504 plan or IEP.
*Show them FAAN's position statment supporting food-free classroom celebrations.
* Show them the link on FAAN's webite of school's that have successfully banned certain allergens from the classroom.
*Show them FAAN's model school board policy requiring all treats brought to school must be packaged foods with ingredient labels.
I mean, wouldn't it feel great to read that?
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited August 20, 2007).][/b]
It sure would, Gail. However, I drove by the airport this morning, and I didn't see any pigs on the runway, so I'm not holding my breath...LOL!

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 1:20am
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[b]It sure would, Gail. However, I drove by the airport this morning, and I didn't see any pigs on the runway, so I'm not holding my breath...LOL![/b]
But if you lived on an island, where all pigs had wings, it is more possible that some pigs would need to be shown how to use their wings? Told that flying was possible? That maybe they needed to be led by example? I would guess there would be plenty of pockets of these pigs that wouldn't figure out what their wings were for if the land they were living on was flat, with readily available food, and all their other resources were handed to them. Without truffles around, I'm not sure about if pigs have an innate characteristic that promotes curiosity.
Anyway, pigs who lived up with hills, had to forage for food, had more challenges happen in their life, are more apt to discover their wings, even if accidentally. But the use would be discovered, flourish, and become part of their skill set.
The question is, is it incumbant on the pigs in the hills, who go out for a swoop around the island, to land and meet those flatland pigs? Do the flying pigs have a responsibility to let the flatland pigs in on the info about their wings? Surely, eventually flatland pigs might one day stumble upon the notion they could fly if they ever looked up. But keeping it's head buried in the mud below itself is much more to their liking..... looking up is hardly worthwhile. A flying pig sharing information is a quicker way for them to learn.
And it is true, that even when shown, a flatland pig might still prefer it's mud, not want to fly, and be content where it is. But, plenty of other pigs .... even if it were just one at a time.... would get a taste of flying.... and even begin to enjoy it, seeing that it isn't as hard as it looks, can show them new things, meet new pigs from other parts of the island, and give them a whole new perspective on a lot of things..... including the pigs that want to keep their noses in the ground.
Point?
Why aren't we telling FAAN to put different guidelines? Suggesting? Urging? Questioning why they don't?
If we want a counter balance, why do we sit back and silently complain about it to eachother?
Honestly, many things that we complain about don't come from our apathy here on the boards. But, out in the real world, we do apologize for, don't want to inconvenience, don't want to stick out, don't want to be labeled "the .itch"....etc.
We are the peacemakers right? It is up to us to smooth everything out. To keep the well oiled machine running.
And I would ask WHY?
This thread has deteriorated into yet another IDEA/IEP vs 504 thread. I'm am tired debating that right now. It isn't about the merits of the point of that. Anymore comments I make about it, won't help. I just don't have the energy for it. It isn't that I don't see it. But right now, it isn't happening.
All I really wanted to do was explore some things. The ideas that I'm talking about, sure it would be great in conjunction with things like IDEA/IEP/504 --- but the principle can stand alone. Even for those people who disagree with the formalization of their child's disability.
Why don't we as a FA community expect more?
Why don't we, just plainly, as a parent, expect more?
Why don't we expect more, voice it, and not accept less than, when it comes to the lives of our children, with the same fervor that other parents glom together and get angry if their kid can't eat a cupcake?
Why do we take it in silence --- we are talking about the lives of our children?
We want others to think that our kids are more important than a cookie..... but do we do things that undermine that?
There are pigs that fly..... they just have to be shown that they have wings, and shown how to use them.
Just watch "Kids in the Hall"..............

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 2:26am
Corvallis Mom's picture
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LOL!!!
And I though they were [i]MONKEY WINGS.[/i]
[b][i]"Jonathon Livingston...... Piglet???[/i][/b]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll try a barrel-roll on my way to fold that load of laundry. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 2:36am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

gvmom, very well said. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
I understand the thread derailing, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, you wanted some help in whether or not your stance on not sending in the safe treat box was something that was do-able or not do-able (my language is limited these days, sorry [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img] ).
So, if it is a Canadian *thing* and before I had, in my Province, Sabrina's Law, and we don't have 504 Plans here in Canada - we have, in Ontario, written school board plans re anaphylaxis.
At the time that I gave a written school plan to the school for my son, I was one of very few people in this Province who had done so (it was written by another member of PA.com - PeanutTrace/morgansmom).
You know, I would even have to re-read that school plan (haven't even looked at it for this year [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img] ) to see if I even made a point about the food in the classrooms.
My written school plan, as reviewed by my lawyer, is not a legally binding document. It is to be used as a set of guidelines by the school.
The thing that pi$$es me off (pardon me) is that I HAVE seen what you are suggesting done. Not in one school - in a few.
What is it with the Canadian thing? Are the people that we want to deal with (The Cupcake Queens) more complacent here in Canada? Do Canadians not shout about their *rights* as much and so when presented with the idea of excluding a PA child, some people will actually "get it" and "get it" quickly?
Personally, I'm quite mystified by this whole discussion, but again, only because my stance is (was) the same as your's and it was done. I honestly cannot believe that it's simply a matter of us being in different countries, but again, if that is truly the case, then I'd have to say my experiences mean nothing when it comes to helping YOU get what you require for your children in school.
Yet, to contradict that (but perhaps not), when originally writing up a school plan for my son, I was looking at American 504 Plans to see what they had in them (I liked rilira's at that time). Americans have REPEATEDLY been able to help me deal with situations at the school and yet I feel helpless with this situation because I'm what? Canadian?
I do not get it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img]
After people have checked Kids in the Hall for a flying pigs video (but then again, you referenced Canadians [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] ), check out [url="http://www.cbc.com"]www.cbc.ca[/url] and watch a clip from Corner Gas.
Edited to change CBC website to the correct one [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img] (some Canadian I am) and also when I checked, I couldn't find Corner Gas running, so I would suggest a good dose of Rick Mercer. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
There but for the Grace of God, go I.
[This message has been edited by Alternative to Mainstream (edited August 21, 2007).]

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 3:33am
gvmom's picture
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Joined: 08/24/2005 - 09:00

[b]I understand the thread derailing, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, you wanted some help in whether or not your stance on not sending in the safe treat box was something that was do-able or not do-able (my language is limited these days, sorry ).[/b]
Partly. But also in a larger legal issue. I'll try to give an example.
Let's say your child wears a green shirt to school. He comes home at the end of the day, and tells you that he couldn't participate in a class activity because he was wearing green. HUH? Well, all the other kids were wearing orange. I can't participate if I wear green.... can't you send me in wearing an orange shirt... or one like theirs?
Would you go to the teacher and ask them what was up or would you go get an orange shirt?
If the teacher said that your son wearing a green shirt means that either he gets separated out or nobody gets to do the activity because to do it you have to wear orange.... what would you do? Would you say too bad.... my son gets to wear whatever shirt he wants? And, btw, you know how many near riots have occurred because a school wants to implement a dress code ..... god forbid Suzie not have the right to express herself through her thigh high mini skirt.........
I guess my thinking is that there is a bigger premise that is applicable to what we as a FA community are faced with. Just the plain merits of excluding a child. Is it legal? If it isn't, why do we tolerate it, with or without specific IEP/504?
We've talked about Rosa Parks here. How about the after affects? Did she get back on the bus and go to the back again? She fought for a principle, did anyone tell her to go back and sit down after it all, and what did she do? Did she feel satisfied to have made her point but then not sit in the front because the driver told her things hadn't settled down enough and it would just make things easier if she went to the back?
Some people here have fought horrific battles with their schools.... gone through a lot to get what they have. What is it worth if you do the same things that a parent without one does?
You fight for the right to life for your child.... the accommodations that are necessary for them to attend school.... go to the mat for principle and law contained in IDEA/504..... but then still send in something that lets them out of their contract.
It doesn't make sense to me anymore as a parent of FA children, as a parent in general believing in the rights of children as a whole, and as a tax paying citizen who is tired of my tax dollars being used to pay the salaries of those that would exclude, isolate and discrimminate in the name of pandering to social groups rather than what is legal in this country.
If it is okay for a school to treat your child differently based on their FA's in an exclusionary sense, and you sanction it and promote it with things like snack boxes, what is next?

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 4:00am
notnutty's picture
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gvmom: Very well said. Certainly something for all of us to think about.

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 4:54am
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Joined: 12/22/2005 - 09:00

We're perpetuators, of good (safety for our kids) and evil (exclusion of our kids). It's a very difficult situation we're in, isn't it?

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 5:12am
ceross's picture
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Sorry, this may be a bit of a non sequitor. The Washington Post had an article on school snacks today. Kudos to the article for mentioning food allergies. There is also a great sidebar about local (DC Metro) school snack policies.
[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/20/AR2007082001342.html?hpid=smartliving"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...pid=smartliving[/url]

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 5:26am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

gvmom, sorry, I should have worded it do-able or not do-able legally.
As far as I know, it is legally do-able.
Could I stand alone with a complaint of repeated food transgressions and go to the OHRC? I'm not clear. The one year I did have a case to go before OHRC, it was a series of things, starting from my son missing the first day of school that occurred.
But repeated exclusion on the basis of cupcakes?
I have to say that when I phoned Anaphylaxis Canada regarding my son's BENCH situation at current school, they actually thought it was okay - if that was all the school could do with their resources (I had been given the line limited resources by the school) then it was okay. We had to deal with what we had to deal with and would I rather have the BENCH or nothing in place to keep my son safe kinda thing (I have to find that particular thread). That was Anaphylaxis Canada speaking and yet, I am fairly clear that I approached the OHRC as well.
Excluding 7 or 8 children to sit at a BENCH every day because they had PA? I don't think so. Not in *my* world. Not in the *real* world.
So, my answer to you again, since I do know that it is do-able, and understand that a 504 Plan is a legally binding document THEN cupcakes would not legally be allowed into your child's classroom.
Exclusion - my answer to that would be more in the BENCH situation where my national advocate kinda told me to grin and bear it but I am fairly sure OHRC said otherwise.
He**, OHRC said otherwise when they wouldn't let me kid into school that year.
So yes, how it is presented to them - who is on the other end of the phone/e-mail/whatever, but NO - NO EXCLUSION.
I am unclear right now, but as far as I can tell, although I don't think any of us have been daring enough to try (not from what I've read in this thread anyway) and even file a human rights' complaint because of exclusion based on a food allergy.
I don't mind being corrected on that one at all and would love to read examples, actually.
But, I do know that each time I have called OHRC, I have been told that what was happening to my son at school was not okay and the basis for a complaint - so my assumption therefore that it was not legal.
I think I remain dazed and confused however.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img]
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
There but for the Grace of God, go I.

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 6:00am
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Joined: 02/07/2002 - 09:00

I haven't sent in a safe treat box since Jason was in the second grade (that was the only year I did)... because the teachers always put the kibosh on birthday cupcakes/cookies/candy, and I've always been involved with the class party treats at some level.
I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect the teachers to make a reasonable attempt to include students with food allergies.
------------------
Cheryl, mom to Jason (9 MFA including peanuts, tree nuts, shellfish, coconut, sesame, squid)
Joey (7 NKA)
Allison (4 milk allergic, suspect shellfish, avoiding PN/TN for now)
Ryan (1) nka *knock on wood*

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 6:08am
PinkPoodle's picture
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Joined: 06/12/2007 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b][b]
You fight for the right to life for your child.... the accommodations that are necessary for them to attend school.... go to the mat for principle and law contained in IDEA/504..... but then still send in something that lets them out of their contract.
If it is okay for a school to treat your child differently based on their FA's in an exclusionary sense, and you sanction it and promote it with things like snack boxes, what is next?[/b]
Gvmom-I guess it depends what your 'contract' says about food in the classroom. Our 504 Plan says (we agreed to this for safety reasons) that DD's PARENTS will provide her snacks. It says DD will only eat food provided by home. I don't know about the legality of it (did the school put in writing a planned discrimination...?), but I do know this, the clarity of that accommodation did protect her life. It is clear to her and although the teacher attempted to violate it, DD knew not to accept the food. Her 504 Plan was changed this year (initiated by us) to have any classroom projects/use of food during a party safe for all or not have it all. I'm not talking about cupcakes; I'm talking about activities with food (decorating cookies as a classroom project, making gingerbread houses, "bobbing" for doughnuts, etc.).
I'd love to see birthday cupcakes banned from school (just a hunch that the kids who are bringing in cupcakes are also celebrating with cake at home--it is overkill). Our district has recently moved to "guidelines" (aka snail's pace--too shocking to say mandates) that will make the cupcakes in the classroom decreased. It still is not ideal, but better. AND..it will only be as good as the teacher's ability to enforce it and send food away.
I already stated that my reason for not sending in a 'safe treat box' is because it sat for the year without any use. I will send DD with her own treats once a month when they do their monthly birthday celebration. This is how her life is--she is allergic to egg, peanuts, and tree nuts. She has never been to a party where the cake was 'safe' for her. She did go to a MFA child's party and it would have been safe, but she wouldn't eat it. I don't feel comfortable with her eating cake (if she outgrows egg) that other moms might feel OK giving to their peanut allergic children (for example we were at a birthday party and the cake came from a bakery that has customers who request a "peanut-free" cake sign a waiver saying there is always a risk of cross-contamination....). I would rather see my DD eating her own cupcake courtesy of our kitchen (or Divvies if I decide to buy some).
I am very interested to hear what the OCR's position on this is. It is my understanding that our children are not entitled to an 'equal'/'idenitical' experience--the school can provided an alternative experience. I do think it would be great if the school all of a sudden had to do mass orders from Divvies to keep up with the cupcake celebrations rather than me slaving away baking [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 6:11am
gvmom's picture
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Joined: 08/24/2005 - 09:00

[b]I am unclear right now, but as far as I can tell, although I don't think any of us have been daring enough to try (not from what I've read in this thread anyway) and even file a human rights' complaint because of exclusion based on a food allergy.[/b]
Yes! Thank you. *smacking own forehead*
Human Rights. The basic rights of the individual.
Where is the "moral outrage" based on exclusion -- period?
Where is the "moral outrage" based on a blatant disregard for the illegality of exclusion?
Would you sit back and watch another child at school be excluded for another reason?
Would you not say something?
Would you not do something?
Maybe that is it. Maybe those of us who send in safe snacks, even with a legally binding agreement, are the ones that would not say something --- even if we see a wrong, feel it is wrong, have that urge to step in but don't for whatever reason ---
If the teacher of your own child scheduled an activity which a child in a wheelchair couldn't participate in, would you say something? Would you say something and still let your child participate if the wheelchair bound child couldn't?
.... it is a lot about human rights.... basic..... inherent......legal......
For me a lot right now is about the person that I am. The person that I aspire to be. And above all, the safety of my children and my hope for the people they are to become. There are things that I will feel I will have failed them in if I don't hold true..... and don't raise them to believe in. To fight for. To believe and know are right.
....now apparently I need to go work on my crooked tail which should be curly.... get a washcloth to wipe off some of this mud on my nose.... and practice my take-off and landings.... still a bit bumpy.....

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 6:33am
gvmom's picture
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Joined: 08/24/2005 - 09:00

[b]Gvmom-I guess it depends what your 'contract' says about food in the classroom.[/b]
No products with Peanuts/Treenuts. No may contains, made in facility, etc.
Pre-packaged, individually wrapped, with ingredient list & allergen warning.
That is just to get into the classroom.
For DS to eat it, add that either DH or I (or both) have exclusively given our permission for it after having been able to see it & examine it.
No food for class projects (at all).
That is the current 504.
Not enforced last year until after March, and then not consistently and only because we accidentally caught things that we would never have found out about save for dumb luck.

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 6:39am
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Joined: 02/01/2007 - 09:00

govmom,
I guess I don't see things the way you do. My son's real life is eating foods different from others. (shurg) I think *that* is far more upsetting that being left out of some *particular* snack and having to have a different snack. My son will participate in parties by eating safe foods that *I* provide. He is right now fine with this.
I would *love* to get rid of bday treats in school and would feel this way even if DS didn't have FAs. I think they have no place in the classroom. As a teacher I find it to be a waste of learning time. I would work towards eliminated food-based bday celebrations in school. I wouldn't keep my son from having a safe treat when others *are* going to be having them. Others *are* going to be having them, like it or not at DS's school. Outside of school we go to events and DS eats his own food.
I don't trust others to determine if a food is safe. I don't expect others to know this. It requires calling companies. He eats our food and that's what is safe.
I don't think having DS eat an alternate treat = he is being excluded. I think him not having any treat would = that, though if others are having something.
*I* care that he eats different food from others at parties. So far he *doesnt'*. That surprised me but I'm relieved and glad he feels that way. My brother who always loved lobster recently became allergic. He also was having very bad reactions (not IgE but bad reactions) to dairy and stopped his other favorite food which is ice cream. I asked him if he felt sad about this and he said, "why should I feel sad about not getting sick?" This is how DS feels about it, too. Safe food keeps him safe and he likes that. Also, our stuff is usually better than what others have anyway. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
I respect your opinion but i dont' share your outrage or emotion on this. My top goal is DS's safety. 2nd is his mental and emotional health. All are important.
I am, as I said earlier, very sorry you have had such a hard time with your school. They really should be following the plan they created with you and it stinks they haven't. It is criminal, really, if they don't, IMO.
I wish you all the best.

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 6:50am
MCKMOM's picture
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Joined: 08/25/2006 - 09:00

Hi,
I have "heard" that on Back to school night this week they,(school) will announce a school wide policy of "food free" celebrations....
One can only hope, I heard some of the teachers last year got fed up will all the competing "cupcakes", some classes had treats 2-3 times a week....Plus I think it is becoming the norm in S. Cal, (law?)
My dd will start in 2008 but my non-allergic son is in 4th grade and has a PA boy in his class, I cant wait till
thursday night to see how this is handled....and one whole year to implement before my little one sets her little foot in the Kinder-door...
We shall see, I am hopeful but after reading all of these posts I don't know why...
Good Luck
L.

Posted on: Tue, 08/21/2007 - 8:17am
TwokidsNJ's picture
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Joined: 05/28/2005 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]
*Show them FAAN's model school board policy requiring all treats brought to school must be packaged foods with ingredient labels.
[/b]
Are you saying that this model school board policy already exists (re: packaged food recommendation)?
If so can you point me in the direction of where to find this?
Thank you!

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