Do you see PA as a moral issue?

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 12:52am
river's picture
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This topic was raised in another thread by another poster, but I thought that it was that important that it really should have a thread of its own.

Early in my sudden introduction to peanut allergy I was overwhelmed by the moral implications surrounding this issue.

Here's a large group of mostly vulnerable children who at at risk from exposure to a common food. In order to interact in their own community, they require this same community to demonstrate care by adapting to a new normalcy ie. peanut awareness. The more the community is willing to forfeit or change, the safer the children will be. The more the community is unwilling to adapt, the more the children will be put at risk.

Is PA a moral challenge to our society? Will it take the best of our human selves to be able to deal with it effectively? Thinking within your own religious or moral context, if you could imagine a world of ethicly superior people, how would they handle a problem like this?

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 1:57am
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Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]Here's a large group of mostly vulnerable children who at at risk from exposure to a common food. In order to interact in their own community, they require this same community to demonstrate care by adapting to a new normalcy ie. peanut awareness. The more the community is willing to forfeit or change, the safer the children will be. The more the community is unwilling to adapt, the more the children will be put at risk.
Is PA a moral challenge to our society? Will it take the best of our human selves to be able to deal with it effectively? Thinking within your own religious or moral context, if you could imagine a world of ethicly superior people, how would they handle a problem like this?[/b]
(Quoting most of your post since most of it is relevant to my reply.)
River,
[i]*an Ethical-Moral challenge*???[/i]
I posted a some months back, in reply to Gail:
[b]*************************[/b]
Gail W
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
Actually, I work in ICU, CCU, Trauma, and float to other areas as needed. I find the same principles I mentioned govern those areas as well. Just think......not too long ago CPR was not a "Standard" in the hospital setting. At some point it must have been a theory, no? Now, some fast food chains have persons who are capable of it.
[url="http://www.geocities.com/rickardo_amcs_2001/history.html"]http://www.geocities.com/rickardo_amcs_2001/history.html[/url]
If not for CPR, how could we accomplish open heart surgery? Bypass? Organ transplant???
In addition to CPR, we have PALS and ACLS. Within each pathway, are guidelines by which to "customize" the protocol. But "standard" guidelines.
I cannot help but remember this quote:
"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards." -- Mark Twain
(Disclaimer: I do not necessarily hold the same opinion, nor do I intend it as an "across the board" statement.)
After dealing with my son's previous school regarding a 504 plan...........I can only say(*Personally Speaking here*): There must be a better way. It is in my nature to find a better way.
I understand you have had great success with your school, Gail, and I commend you on that. It is a great accomplishment. But, you have also been blessed with the grace, composure, knowledge, and resources to handle that mighty task. Again, my congratulations! I might add you have developed "policy" along the way, have you not? Is this a result of your success or due to it? By far, you are one of the persons on this board I hold in high esteem.
Of course, schools have a tendency to deal with issues in certain ways. Maybe individualized ways. Take IEP's for example. Also, there is much "theory" in developmental thought. This I know from dealing with "special needs" for both my children. Yes, I find it frustration. At work, however, I deal much in action, reaction. And sometimes rather quickly. I titrate a drip, I get a specific reaction, and usually quickly. Hopefully! It is paramount to success in such a field (healthcare) that we can count on certain expected outcomes. PA to me represents a healthcare issue. Albeit in a school setting at times. I don't believe it is that unmanageable, considering the healthcare spectrum. I believe that with proper collaberation, "standardized" proceedures, possibly including "proceedure within proceedure" are possible. Granted, healthcare policiy is volumes thick. I don't find it hard to follow though, since much of what is directed in it is the natural course of action, given my education, and the education of others in my field. We are, for the most part, on the same wavelength. Given what I know regarding anatomy and physiology, and pharmocology (for example, but education not limited to) certain policies just naturally follow.
[b]Yes, we do not know all there is to know about PA, but would you grant me that we do have "the big picture" in focus as far as we are able? (similarly with most healthcare issues, one cannot say we know all there is to know) Would policy (regarding the school setting) erring in the favor of the most protective measures be that bad? Of course, if there is but one child in the school history who's "individualized plan" dictates certain measures to begin with, say "no may contains" or a "peanut free" school, would not a child with a "individualized plan" who was allowed "may contains" (although I don't agree with that *personally*) or did not have the requirement for a "peanut free" school, still abide under the rules of the previous "individualized" plan mentioned? Would it be so hard for one PA parent to submit their child to certain conditions that they may find exceed their "comfort zone" requirements(that would err in the safest extreme according to what is known or suspected about PA) considering (as a Parent of a PA child myself) I ask non-PA parents to make accomodations for my child in school?
Would not such policy offer protection to children who did not have as concerned or informed adults "going to bat" for them? I say this with caution, but resolve since daily I see children (in general and not specifically related to PA) without parents who demonstrate protection, love, or nurturing. We cannot assume PA to be elevated above this possibility. Is it not the duty of society to offer some means of protection for such children? Should PA be any different?
Of course, "Standardized Policy" would probably consist of several, or many, sub-policies that together could work in agreement to provide a safe, less stressful (for everyone) appropriate environment in school. Equally. [/b]
MommaBear
Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the links or quotes in this post.
[b]***************************[/b]
[i]end quote[/i]
edit to correct italics.
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 15, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 2:00am
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I agree, PA is a moral issue. A moral issue that gets all caught up (and rightly so) in personal responsibility and (not so rightly so in my opinion) the needs of the many.....
Unfortunately PB is considered a comfort food and we modern people are really caught up in our creature comforts.
Look at all of the threads here about candy, cakes, ice cream, cream fillings.
We on this site are not only trying to find ways to help our children and ourselves stay safe but some of us are trying to find ways to make the perfect twinkie.
(I do not mean this to sound rude, we ARE dealing with a food allergy after all.)
So I think we all buy into the comfort food or fun food ethic that the advertisers are trying to push on us.
We want our kids to have carefree lives in a situation that makes it impossible, and every child should be able to have that one gummy bear rope or twinkie without fear of death.
But because of our situation we are forced to try to fit into a world that does not necessarily understand or care to understand this. They are not going to give up their peanuts.
My one experience on the radio trying to ask them what is so important about a peanut on an airplane? Their answer, my son should never fly and should eat his meals alone in his dorm room. This from a well-educated and respected doctor ON THE RADIO for the world to hear!
Or take a look at the face of the food service manager at DS University. Sitting there in a meeting with 12 members of the University community and the three of us. He NEVER ONCE wavered. He will serve his peanuts whenever he pleases and DS is responsible for making safe choices. PERIOD.
And not ONE person in that room challenged him except me. Not even their lawyers.
Even after explaining contact, airborne, cumulative and accidental reactions no one in that room ever asked him to consider ONE DAY without peanuts in the cafeteria.
Except me of course and he looked right through me as he shook his head NO.
So we did everything we could do to teach DS about keeping safe since day one. The responsibility is his and he is ready to take it on.
I wish it were different.
I will say I have internet friends I have never met who have banned peanuts from their own homes and will not eat any peanut product in public out of respect and loyalty for my son, someone they never met but love.
Ethically superior people? They would find a way to make this world a safe place for everyone. No questions asked.
I always try to remember that in cave man times I would not have survived the birth of my first child thus thinning the herd. My son would have not survived his first contact with peanuts either, again thinning the herd.
We evolved faster than our moral structure. Maybe it will take a few year to catch up but I doubt it will ever happen.
Peg
[This message has been edited by Peg541 (edited July 15, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 3:19am
river's picture
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"I refuse to accept the idea that the "isness" of man's present nature makes him morally incapable of reaching up for the "oughtness" that forever confronts him."
Martin Luther King Jr.
Peg there's always hope, although it is hard to believe when you're sitting there in a room full of seemingly empty hearts.

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 3:39am
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Good quote river and good topic.
Peg

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 4:22am
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love that quote! doesn't it apply to so many things in life? or, should i say "shouldn't" it apply to so many things in life? either way, gives me hope about a lot of things.
joey

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 4:27am
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I think that how we and others treat, care for, and accept persons with severe, anaphylactic food allergies is a moral issue (not solely pa). This can also be applied to anybody who has a physical or mental ailment, who needs to alter or make safe their surroundings in order to participate in society.
I feel that much progess has been made over the 6 years since ds was diagnosed, as more people learn and understand the seriousness of food allergies. The increasing prevalence of serious food allergy has also turned it into an issue that is not just "some other kid" but most people now personally know somebody ie a close friend / family member, which gives them as increased vested interest in helping to keep someone safe and include them in activities.
Is there a way to protect the PA individual that also will protect another who has a different but equally severe allergy? Can we find a solution that is not only acceptable to the public, but also acceptable within our community of people with life-threatening allergies?
Andrea

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 5:00am
river's picture
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Whenever things are done to help PA kids it's naturally going to have positive results for children with other life threatening allergies and others as well.
When the moral bar is raised, it's raised for everyone---no matter what kind of bigotry you are speaking of. Quality of life improves everywhere.

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 5:59am
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Quote:Originally posted by ACBaay:
[b] This can also be applied to anybody who has a physical or mental ailment, who needs to alter or make safe their surroundings in order to participate in society. ...........
.............Is there a way to protect the PA individual that also will protect another who has a different but equally severe allergy? Can we find a solution that is not only acceptable to the public, but also acceptable within our community of people with life-threatening allergies?
Andrea[/b]
HAAAAAAAAAAAAALEL-LU-JAH!
HAAAAAAAAAAALEL-LU-JAH!
HA-LEL-LU-JAH!
HA-LEL-LU-JAH!
HA-LEEEEEEE-EEEEEEEL-LUUUUUUUUUUU-JAH!
[url="http://members.aol.com/nonstopny/easter/messiah.htm#hear%20it%20live"]http://members.aol.com/nonstopny/easter/messiah.htm#hear%20it%20live[/url]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely humming loudly.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
(Thank you, Andrea)
PS Square pegs aside, Circular discussions are like warm fuzzie baby plaid "blankies".... of great utility no matter how old they become.

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 7:09am
river's picture
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What the hell was that?
I know better than to ask.

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 7:12am
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Mommabear, I don't understand either. Please clue me in.
Peg

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 8:05am
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Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]What the hell was that?
I know better than to ask. [/b]
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003529.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003529.html[/url]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 8:06am
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Quote:Originally posted by Peg541:
[b]Mommabear, I don't understand either. Please clue me in.
Peg[/b]
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003529.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003529.html[/url]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 8:31am
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oh lord...here we go again...the diabetes debate. predictable.
joey

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 8:37am
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the question, by the way, was "do you see PA as a moral issue?"
i do. and, i'd be happy to accommodate diabetics (or fill in the blank here) in any way possible as long as it doesn't affect my child's safety. they CAN eat something besides peanuts in the school environment. period. common sense. what the hell is the argument. if the tables were turned and MY child was the diabetic and someone else's child was the PA child, i would GLADLY and WILLINGLY send something other than peanuts/peanut butter to school for my child.
great...i did it again..i allowed myself to be taken off track AND to join in the bull. sorry guys. i just think this is such common sense stuff and people always have to throw in some crap to make it seem more difficult than it has to be.
some people who homeschool might not care about peanut butter/peanuts at school because it DOESN'T AFFECT THEIR LIFE IN ANY WAY. guess what? i choose NOT to homeschool and my child deserves to be safe at school. period. so do diabetic children and (___________) children...and there is a way to make it safe for them ALL.
there...i feel better now. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
joey
[This message has been edited by joeybeth (edited July 15, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 8:42am
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i just re-read my last post and wanted to clear up something .... i have the UTMOST respect for homeschooling. i hope it didn't sound like i was belittling that. i was just trying to make the point that people who homeschool don't need to be telling me and others who choose other options what we should expect from our schools. it's easy to say what SHOULD be done when it doesn't affect your life at all. again...if i offended any homeschoolers...please forgive me. if i had the patience to homeschool i would be doing it myself. i think it's a wonderful option.
joey

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 8:50am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003529.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003529.html[/url] [/b]
Mommabear, come right out and say what you are trying to say. I see that thread as tainted for many reasons and will not go further into it. I'd rather have a few words as to what the Hallelujiah meant?
"I said Hallelujiah because I believe......"
Something like that.
And please don't take this as criticism I really don't mean it to be taken like that.
Peg
[This message has been edited by Peg541 (edited July 15, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 8:56am
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oh just great...did i totally miss the intention of the hallelujah comments? that would be my luck. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
my opinions stand just the same though.
if i was jumping to the wrong conclusions....forgive me please. i just felt like we were going down that same old road again. talk about circular discussions....that's one that never seems to end and though the solutions ARE there, no one ever seems to acknowledge them.

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 10:03am
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Wow the National Peanut Board's favourite charity comes up again. Gotta get peanut butter into those 504s. What a surprise?
As suprising as the Siss Boom Bah, Rah Rah Rah, or "Hallelujah," (complete blasphemy), whenever someone bangs the drum and chants a FAAN mantra.
Sort of like creating alliances by zeroing in on certain people's sensitive areas then going for it.
Also like identifying people's weaknesses and rubbing in the salt.
The one thing that amazes me about all this is the absolute political arrogance and oppressiveness. It's uglier than I ever imagined.
Talk about a moral void!

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 10:30am
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joeybeth,
I don't homeschool primarily because of PA. It's a "big picture" issue. Not one single factor. I won't go into it further or defend it, because, quite frankly, I'm [i]privileged[/i] to be able to homeschool. It is a privilege to [i]be[/i] homeschooled. And unless you look at it that way, one probably shouldn't attempt it or desire to be so educated.
Joeybeth, aside from the fact that my son does not attend a public school (or any school outside our home):
#1 He has before.
#2 I pay a considerable sum in tax dollars to the public school district and therefore have a say (or at least an opinion) in what goes on inside the doors. Taxation, Representation Issue.
#3 I do have another child enrolled in another school in the district that offers an "early childhood" program. (ages 3-4) I am not a speech therapist. They offer speech therapy, SID intervention therapy, and monitor his foot orthotics. Never said I could do it all. Although I feel quite competent in instructing my child in English, Math, Spelling, History, Science, Art, Music, Health and a second language. I do hold multiple degrees, am a Registered Nurse, Mother, and Wife. By all rights [i]I should be capable of this endevor.[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
I will also add the staff in the Early Childhood Program simply adores my younger son (should add they most likely would adore the older son (PA/NUTS/ASTHMA/Atopic/Etc.), but have not met him. Yet. (My younger son's teacher has asked to come to dinner, and I will be happy to oblige this fall). Back to the staff adoring my younger son...... Why wouldn't I let him attend such a program? The persons have obviously demonstrated a great deal of affection and concern for him. It would be selfish of me to restrain him. Also, he [i]likes[/i] attending. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Peg,
Handel's chorus because: Someone stated what I felt. I actually had a touchpoint. See, untill the "as long as it doesn't affect my__________" clause is removed, we won't reach the "moral highground" so cruicial for us all (or so this thread implies), (will we, river?---as long as you speak of raising "moral bars") I always was under the impression that "moral bars, highground, WHATEVER...... was independent of "what ifs" and "as long as".
Peg, you posted:
"Mommabear, come right out and say what you are trying to say"
I can't. It's not words, It's a feeling. A compilation of emotions peppered with facts, experience, and intuition. And putting the same into grouped symbols would be an injustice, if not impossible for me to achieve. It's an "either you feel it or you don't" type of thing. Besides, translating feelings into words (especially written) has never been my forte'. Especially if it is not a literal translation. It's still there when I read words related to "diabetes" issue in the thread I referenced. Maybe it's just me.
#4 Joeybeth,
you posted:
"they CAN eat something besides peanuts in the school environment. period. common sense. what the hell is the argument."
Buried deep in that old thread is a rather valid link that refutes your statement. They are not my words either. (Amazing, Is It Not?) Not to sound belittling either (honestly), but the link is in pretty plain terms and if you don't see it that way, then I can't help you see it differently. I'll reraise that portion and link to it.
Arguing with the same tends to make me think that within the PA community (not everyone) is a somewhat "elitist" attitude with regards to "disability". Not a smooth road to the "moral high ground", and definitely not helpful in raising the "moral bar".
Therefore, probably not very "efficate" (word courtesy of Eric [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]) in achieving desired results.
ie:
To quote River, "When the moral bar is raised, it's raised for everyone---no matter what kind of bigotry you are speaking of. Quality of life improves everywhere.
To quote ACBay: "I think that how we and others treat, care for, and accept persons with severe, anaphylactic food allergies is a moral issue (not solely pa). This can also be applied to anybody who has a physical or mental ailment, who needs to alter or make safe their surroundings in order to participate in society."
To quote Joeybeth: "love that quote! doesn't it apply to so many things in life? or, should i say "shouldn't" it apply to so many things in life? either way, gives me hope about a lot of things"
To quote Peg: "Ethically superior people? They would find a way to make this world a safe place for everyone. No questions asked." and "I agree, PA is a moral issue. A moral issue that gets all caught up (and rightly so) in personal responsibility and (not so rightly so in my opinion) the needs of the many....."
To quote River: "The more the community is willing to forfeit or change, the safer the children will be. The more the community is unwilling to adapt, the more the children will be put at risk." and "Is PA a moral challenge to our society? Will it take the best of our human selves to be able to deal with it effectively? Thinking within your own religious or moral context, if you could imagine a world of ethicly superior people, how would they handle a problem like this?"
and To quote myself: "We cannot assume PA to be elevated above this possibility. Is it not the duty of society to offer some means of protection for such children? Should PA be any different?" and " Would it be so hard for one PA parent to submit their child to certain conditions that they may find exceed their "comfort zone" requirements(that would err in the safest extreme according to what is known or suspected about PA) considering (as a Parent of a PA child myself) I ask non-PA parents to make accomodations for my child in school?"
Just trying to put the puzzle together, and shouting [b]HAAAAAAAAAAAAALEL-LU-JAH![/b] when a piece finally slips into place.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 10:50am
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River,
you posted:
"As suprising as the Siss Boom Bah, Rah Rah Rah, or "Hallelujah," (complete blasphemy), whenever someone bangs the drum and chants a FAAN mantra."
*****************************
just to clarify:
I am not a member of any allergy organization or the National Peanut Board. Not even FAAN. (Imagine. I don't think I am quite "acceptable" material to them. lolololol) (Nor am I employed by either----as you have implied in previous posts). I have visited the web site before (FAAN), but never paid it much attention. I don't even have a newspaper subscription. It is hard to get me away from home to vote, although in recent years, I have. (Maybe it's a thirty-something issue). Truthfully, I'd enjoy lunch with you. I'd enjoy lunch with everyone.
Truthfully?????
I'm still seething with Jealousy that I didn't get to go to the Toronto thingie. I don't bite. I'm not a Democrat. I'm not a Republican. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] I just talk, a lot.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 10:52am
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Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]
The one thing that amazes me about all this is the absolute political arrogance and oppressiveness. It's uglier than I ever imagined.
[/b]
and you have quite the imagination. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 10:53am
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Jeez here I go... again, I do not mean to offend. Mommabear thank you for the clarification. I understand you do things differently I really get that. I somehow feel when I post something and it is responded to with a link or a Hallelujiah that you are laughing at or ridiculing me. I'd rather just a bunch of words good or bad.
Mommabear what do you mean when you say "We cannot assume PA to be elevated above this possibility."
And this is going to be my last post in this discussion. I liked the original question but when it got all muddied up with a "tainted" thread I cannot continue.
Peg

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 10:56am
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Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]
Sort of like creating alliances by zeroing in on certain people's sensitive areas then going for it.
Also like identifying people's weaknesses and rubbing in the salt.
[/b]
The only way I can interpret this is [i]that I am actually making sense[/i].

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 11:04am
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Originally posted by Peg541:
[b]"Jeez here I go... again, I do not mean to offend. Mommabear thank you for the clarification."[/b]
[i]You're welcome [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img][/i]
Originally posted by Peg541:
I understand you do things differently I really get that. I somehow feel when I post something and it is responded to with a link or a Hallelujiah that you are laughing at or ridiculing me.
no. no. [i]no[/i]............
Originally posted by Peg541:
[b]"Mommabear what do you mean when you say "We cannot assume PA to be elevated above this possibility." [/b]
Please give me a little while to respond? I'M JUST DYING TO CHECK OUT "OFF TOPIC". And I'm spending waaaaaay too much time online. Again. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] (Hey, I'm being honest.)
Originally posted by Peg541:[b]"And this is going to be my last post in this discussion. I liked the original question but when it got all muddied up with a "tainted" thread I cannot continue."[/b]
It's that Silver/Dross/Heat thing again. (no sarcasm, just what came to mind).
BTW: Thanks for the obvious attempt to give a person a fair shake. It's all I can ask for.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 11:09am
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This is very disappointing. Can't we discuss something and try to come up with some viable solutions without all the sarcasm and yelling at one another? Yes, peanuts suck, but so do other foods, and so do other situations.
Sorry if you guys didn't want to hear from somebody who has to equally watch out for other foods. What can be learned if everyone has the same point of view?\
Andrea

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 11:14am
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Quote:Originally posted by ACBaay:
[b]This is very disappointing. Can't we discuss something and try to come up with some viable solutions without all the sarcasm and yelling at one another? Yes, peanuts suck, but so do other foods, and so do other situations.
Sorry if you guys didn't want to hear from somebody who has to equally watch out for other foods. What can be learned if everyone has the same point of view?\
Andrea[/b]
Sudden urge to sing again.
[i]Thank you, Andrea.[/i]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 11:17am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]#4 Joeybeth,
you posted:
"they CAN eat something besides peanuts in the school environment. period. common sense. what the hell is the argument."
Buried deep in that old thread is a rather valid link that refutes your statement. They are not my words either. (Amazing, Is It Not?) Not to sound belittling either (honestly), but the link is in pretty plain terms and if you don't see it that way, then I can't help you see it differently. I'll reraise that portion and link to it.
[/b]
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003529.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum1/HTML/003529.html[/url]
contained within I posted:
[b]"Interesting link:
[url="http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514256301/html/x209.html"]http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514256301/html/x209.html[/url]
(taken from "Psychological features characterizing oral health behavior, diabetes self-care health status among IDDM patients:
Chapter 3. Review of literature"
scroll down to: "3.3.1. Diabetes self-care practices"
a quote:
"Concerning adherence to the prescribed diet, knowledge is needed, but social demands and personal preferences have been found to be play a major role, and simplification of the diet regimens has been recommended (Lo 1998). The most frequent barriers to dietary adherence are encountered at home, then come barriers at shopping for food and away from home (Glasgow et al. 1997)."
Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post. I am not offering advice in any manner or form."[/b]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 12:19pm
virginia mom's picture
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Although many people are willing to accommodate PA, there is an equally vocal group that does not want their "life, liberty and pursuit of peanut butter" to be affected in any way. As a moral issue, someone brought up accommodations made to those with severe disabilities and/or mental disabilities. In many communities, lip service will be paid to making accommodations as long as it is "not in OUR neighborhood". Assisted living centers are often opposed in residential areas, not because they are any danger to the community, but because the specter of disability is too close for comfort - "keep it away from me and my family" is the feeling. PA often makes people treat you differently - how anyone could be allergic to such a normal food makes people nervous - they'll make some accommodations but you get the distinct feeling that they really wish you would just go away. As a moral issue, we've got a long row to hoe when it comes to compassion and understanding.

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 2:08pm
e-mom's picture
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MB,
WOW, you are good!!! I think I'm finally starting to understand you.
AND...
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[ [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] I just talk, a lot. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [/B]
Yes you do!! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 10:03pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by e-mom:
[b]MB,
WOW, you are good!!! I think I'm finally starting to understand you.
[/b]
I was thinking the same thing. Less cases of whiplash here (but still a few [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] )
Regarding river's original question;
I agree pa (more so with children than adults) [b]is[/b] a moral issue. Though, I have to add, my first dealing with [i]prejudice[/i] was [b]from[/b] a pa parent, not [b]against[/b] a pa child. It was a case of pa parent wanting peanuts and pb banned from a school, and she would not consider another child at the school who had anaphylactic reactions to fish. Both can be smell/tough sensitive, and both were very popular lunches at that particular school.
She really was the type of pa parent that gives pa parents a *bad name*.
A good set of morals will mean that you are willing to make a few changes to protect another child. A good set of high morals will mean that you are willing to go up another rung of the ladder and seek out ways to make life (like birthday parties) safe and enjoyable for another child.
Edited only to correct bold.
[This message has been edited by AnnaMarie (edited July 16, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 07/15/2003 - 11:40pm
river's picture
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I don't have a problem with differences of opinion---I do with purposeful manipulation.
1. This forum is to deal with PA not all the problems in the world. If we could solve them all---wouldn't we just be special.
2. Although it is constantly being suggested by some posters that there are people on these boards are being closed minded and bigoted about the plights of others---I have yet to see this. NOBODY HAS SAID ANYTHING OF THE SORT. This is a twisting of the truth.
3. Why are there "arguments" going on where none exist? What would be the motivation in a support forum?
This is just the same ugly stuff over and over again by the same people.
MB save your new found charm, not to mention all the hugs and kisses, for people for whom it works.

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 12:02am
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Food Allergies are a moral issue, however there are so many 'moral issues' in this world that a certain amount of self preservation must take priority .
If Pegs son was granted that the cafeteria was peanut free for one day, would you trust them? Do you REALLY think he could relax and enjoy a meal in there?
No, and he has to eat more than once a week doesnt he?
I think that although isolating and depressing eating on your own in your room would be , peace of mind over the safetly of those meals is what I would choose for my son.
Also there is a point when you have to pick your way through life and make your own choices.
Looking at teenagers as we all once were, I suspect that your son would be taking less risk allergy wise in that cafe,than if he went out and had a few drinks with friends in a pub.
Food labeling and service/meals etc in restaruants is a moral issue.
allergic people need to eat and have the moral right to be able to make safe choices or set there own risks.
I could go on and annoy a few more people here, but have to fetch the kids from school!!!
sarah

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 12:15am
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Great question. IMHO I'd rather see this expressed as a social issue than a moral issue.
Morality is a system of right and wrong conduct. Different people have different senses of morality and merely using the word "morality" tends to connote judgement and can make people defensive. This may result in aggressive behavior, which is counterproductive.
On the other hand, when expressed as a "social" issue its more a question of how we as human beings live in contact with one another.
I believe having the compassion and empathy to recognize and accommodate another person's needs is a positive attribute for human's who live in contact with other humans.
T.

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 12:18am
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I just reread my previous post and it sounds kind of stuffy. I didn't intend to come across that way, just typing in a hurry I guess.
T.

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 12:41am
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Quote:Originally posted by tando:
[b]
I believe having the compassion and empathy to recognize and accommodate another person's needs is a positive attribute for human's who live in contact with other humans.
T.[/b]
Yes, irregradeless of the situation or reason, it begins here. It is difficult to speak of "raising bars" in only specific areas. This, since, I believe such to be on a [i]continuum[/i] that becomes [i]pervasive[/i] throughout one's life. A "can't have one without the other" issue, impo.
As for the "moral" only issue. I felt largely the same and pointed out early in this thread that I felt it was an "ethico-moral" issue. Ethics being largely "society" based (although some may argue differently). In my opinion, you can't have one without the other (ethics, morals). Such, (ethics, morals) have somewhat of a "co-dependent" relationship. (Not always a bad thing impo.)
Anywhoo......
Personally? Raising such a bar universally requires one to take on what is essentially a "third person point of view" with the concomitant habitation of a judicious supply of empathy. (I see the same word came to your mind as well). Usually naturally occurring with the removal of any "conflict of interest" and outside of any sociological constraints and/or barriers and "normative" factors.
[i]Wait, It is beginning to sound like asking God to intervene.[/i]
Then again, I must also remember the fact and hope that we are created in His image. Strip away the extraneous and we just might surprise ourselves.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
edit to correct a typo that actually altered meaning.
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 16, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 12:52am
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Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]I don't have a problem with differences of opinion---I do with purposeful manipulation.[/b]
Same here. (Small world, ey?) What would you call spreading innuendo (actually, posting it to a website) about an individual for the purpose of attacking character and destroying credibility IS PURPOSEFUL MANIPULATION. Comments about who I could possibly work for, and what organizations I could possibly support were exactly that. [i]Such innuendo was and is also untrue.[/i]
MommaBear

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 12:54am
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Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]
3. Why are there "arguments" going on where none exist? What would be the motivation in a support forum?[/b]
Possibly to find [i]viable solutions[/i].

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 12:56am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Possibly to find [i]viable solutions[/i].
[/b]
Adding:
YA KNOW, "I put my hand on the stove,...... IT WAS HOT. REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALY HOT. I found a potholder, here, try it."

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 1:00am
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Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]
MB save your new found charm, not to mention all the hugs and kisses, for people for whom it works.
[/b]
PS: River, it's not "charm". It's just [i]me[/i]. (And it's not "new" either. LOL. I even have chipped nails.
BTW, THERE WERE ABSOLUTELY NO "kisses" in those hugs.
[i]no way, no how.[/i]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 1:53am
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I haven't learned how to do the quote thing yet, so apologies for my crude cuts and pastes...
MommaBear said of empathy:
"...Usually naturally occurring with the removal of any "conflict of interest" and outside of any sociological constraints and/or barriers and "normative" factors."
followed by
"Wait, It is beginning to sound like asking God to intervene."
I didn't entirely follow the first sentence but based on the second, I disagree.
I don't believe acting in what I previously described as a positive social manner requires removal of self interest.
Rather, if self interest recognizes our human dependency on other humans (living in contact with one another as we do), it is in our self interest - imperative actually - to recognize and meet the needs of others as often as we can.
As an example, I don't believe witnessing a child with PA go through anaphylaxis is in the interest of anyone of any age. Personally, I would be devastated if I caused such a reaction, whether from PA, milk, fish or whatever. Or even if I was responsible for making a child feel excluded from some activity. (Though I can't say I've never done so...)
IMHO its a failing of our society as a whole that we've not evolved from the "survival of the fittest mentality" that worked well for hunter gatherers but is outmoded for the postmodern industrial age.
Call it being gracious or simply proper social ettiquette, it is in our interest to treat others well. Because what goes around does come around. I think food (such as PA/TN) is just one expression of this -- albeit one that this group is very interested in.
And let's face it, we all have stresses in our lives and don't always act as we'd like ourselves to act -- after all we're human.
T.

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 3:03am
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Tando,
I was not referring to "empathy", but "raising the moral bar". So much for me not correcting run on sentences. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
Personally? Raising such a bar universally requires one to take on what is essentially a "third person point of view" with the concomitant habitation of a judicious supply of empathy. (I see the same word came to your mind as well). This [b](raising the moral bar, [i]sic[/i])[/b]usually naturally occurrs with the removal of any "conflict of interest" and outside of any sociological constraints and/or barriers and "normative" factors.
[i]Wait, It is beginning to sound like asking God to intervene.[/i]
Then again, I must also remember the fact and hope that we are created in His image. Strip away the extraneous and we just might surprise ourselves.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
edit to correct a typo that actually altered meaning.
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 16, 2003).]
ie: I believe part of the supposition of the original question:
In reference to society as a whole becomming more "moral" --- or why they aren't, in response to issues such as PA....oh, hell, what was the original question??
PS.... I would be very interested to hear your re-eval of my thoughts based on this clarification. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
edited again to get rid of dangling participles (ouch).
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 16, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 3:36am
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MB,
I still don't follow that sentence (so many prepositional phrases and darn big words!), but in answer to your question on the original question of the original post:
I believe that 70 percent or more of social conflict is not true conflict. Rather, its based on poor communication, lack of effort, etc. If we as a society were able to eliminate that vast majority of the conflict in our lives, we'd be much more capable of solving the 30 percent or less that is true conflict.
This would reduce that 30 percent, say by half (for lack of any info, I'm picking 50 percent out of thin air).
That leaves us with 15 percent of the conflict in our lives as unresolvable... How much of the PA issues would be in this 15 percent and how much would be in the other 85 percent? I'll guess and say 90 percent of the PA issues would be in the 85 percent of resolvable conflict.
So no, I don't believe every situation can be resolved, but yes I do believe that we can achieve a much higher bar height than we have now.
T.
[This message has been edited by tando (edited July 16, 2003).]
[This message has been edited by tando (edited July 16, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 4:06am
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tando,
[i]I do believe we ordered the same drink.[/i]
ps......
got any good horses in the ninth?

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 4:55am
tando's picture
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Ha, ha...
Let's just hope that drink isn't the Kool-Aid....
T.

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 5:03am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by river:
[b]This forum is to deal with PA not all the problems in the world. If we could solve them all---wouldn't we just be special.
[/b]
Personally, I feel special just for trying.
If we don't [i]spread our wings[/i] and try to offer protection from problems beyond our own, are we not amoral?
[i]I grew up on a two way street. I've lived on them all my life. I've learned to look [b]both[/b] ways before I cross.[/i]

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 6:10am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

river, excellent, thought provoking question. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] In order for me even to start thinking about an answer, rather than just jumping into the discussion, I really felt the need for a clear definition of the word "moral". Here's what I got from [url="http://www.dictionary.com"]www.dictionary.com[/url] (for what it's worth):-
mor

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 6:42am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

river, I just realized that the last time I put dictionary definitions in a thread people got really really angry with me. However, I think I put them in in response to what one person (and I remember who that person was) had posted. It didn't have anything to do with the original question and I think that's why people got angry.
I hope it's okay that I put the definition in, because, as I say, I really needed a clear definition of the word "moral" (not because I don't have any, thank-you very much [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) before I could answer your question "properly".
Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
------------------

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 6:46am
tando's picture
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Hi Cindy,
I must confess I consulted dictionary.com too before I first posted in this thread. I'm wondering since we both did so, what do you think of points I raised?
And to respond most directly to river's original question:
I absolutely believe that a ethically, morally, socially superior society would easily and completely eliminate 90 percent of the conflict we now associate with peanut allergy through better communication, increased empathy and sensitivity to others' needs, and a higher degree of cooperation.
I don't believe all issues would be resolved, but that society would be much more able to deal with the real toughies.
I don't think this would come about by an externally imposed code of conduct but through an internal desire to understand and meet the needs of others, which in so doing would meet the individual's own needs.
T.

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 7:05am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Cindy, I recall the thread with definitions. This doesn't relate. Your definitions (though lengthy [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] ) do relate to this topic. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 07/16/2003 - 7:11am
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Quote:Originally posted by Alternative to Mainstream:
[b]But basically, what I'm trying to say, and it's okay if people get angry, is that this question was raised under the Main Discussion section of PA.com where we discuss peanut allergies. We try, especially again, if we're PA-only parents to answer other FA questions and understand the needs/wants of other FA parents and respect those needs/wants and provide information.
But I don't understand why a thread would be taken off-track (except perhaps because it does require a lot of thought to answer this particular question well IMHO) because it didn't deal with more than PA.
[/b]
Most likely my life expectancy is not sufficient enough to enable me to forgo looking around a bit to figure things out. And whooobaby, I loooooooooove to figure stuff out.
Even if I do live that long,(enabling me to rely soley on and draw only from my own experience and circumstance) chances are, it will be too late to make a difference.
So I look. It behooves me to do so. It behooves those [i]I love[/i] I personally believe there is a lot to be gained from comparison. Even if only to point out differences. Although I find more similarities than differences when doing so---and not soley with PA either. Individuality aside, there seems to be a common theme running about the universe. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
No one is an Island. Even if they so desire. [i]Even if he has PA.[/i]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
BTW, there was nothing, no not anything that surprised me reading the Oregon case. Well, maybe [i]one thing[/i].

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