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Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 11:07pm
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
Never should have ignored the little noise last night. [i]Little noises can be that way.[/i]
[/b]
Hmmmm! Sounds like a familiar point [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
And regarding your other post MB, I doubt the PTA would be included in the rules and regs. They are a volunteer organization.
However, at my son's school they have a fundraiser once a month where lunch is served and a snack is provided free to kindergarten. Always peanut free - though I'm not sure it's free of trace amounts. Since my son is not pa I honestly haven't checked. Eric, are Chips A'Hoy safe in Canada? (I think that was last months treat)
[This message has been edited by AnnaMarie (edited June 01, 2003).]

Posted on: Sun, 06/01/2003 - 12:51am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]
And regarding your other post MB, I doubt the PTA would be included in the rules and regs. They are a volunteer organization.
[/b]
In the instance I gave, are they not an organized group with structure providing food to the student body (not all children of PTA parents)? Is this activity [i]sanctioned[/i] by the school and its agents since it is knowingly performed on school property and in the course of school function?
Spectrum here.
Within the school or during school activity:
Parent feeding own child.
Parent sending food for class party/and or birthday (ie).
Group of parents sending food for student body (not all children of parents in group)
School hot lunch program.
Federal Brown Bag Lunch Program.
Question: Where does "Bake Sale", "Candy Fundraiser", "Vending Machines" fit into this spectrum. Feel free to set up your own spectrum, as mine may not necessarily be the correct order. It is just a guess. I could be wrong.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Sun, 06/01/2003 - 1:07am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] hmmm....
Isn't a ban the same thing as [i]a documented request that specific foods not be brought in[/i]?
[/b]
the way I percieve it,
we are discussing three things:
a [b]LABEL[/b]
[b]ACTIONS TO EFFECT A CHANGE IN CONDITION[/b]
and
the [b]ABILITY TO PAIR A LABEL WITH PARTICULAR ACTIONS OR CONDITION OR VISA VERSA.[/b]
as a label can be subject to interpretation, whereas delineated, formalized actions (PPP Soc --------measurable?, defineable?,realistically achievable?) are probably subject to less interpretation and therefore more enforceable.
The question is: "Does your label adequately describe your actions and/or the condition that exists?"
Should it?
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Sun, 06/01/2003 - 1:32am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] as a label can be subject to interpretation, whereas delineated, formalized actions (PPP Soc --------measurable?, defineable?,realistically achievable?) are probably subject to less interpretation and therefore more enforceable.
The question is: "Does your label adequately describe your actions and/or the condition that exists?"
[/b]
Hi Momma Bear,
I would not say that the label means anything on its own. You could announce that peanuts are banned from the classroom, but without any others actions this would be not efficate (experimenting with that new word! haha) When banning peanuts from a classroom, you would need formalized actions that were measurable, defineable, and realistically achievable and I believe banning peanuts from a classroom is realistically achievable as we have seen in many schools (Cayley's Mom, Cynde, etc). But it may not be realistically achievable in ALL schools.... if you are in Georgia peanut growing country and attempt this, the farmers would cry foul and call you a communist and I don't think there'd be much chance of success.
So to repeat, I would not think a label on its own would accomplish anything as you need to have much more behind the label... so the answer is that the efficacy of the label on its own is not as efficate as formalized actions that were measurable, defineable, and realistically achievable procedures and policies that are behind the label.
Disclaimer: my use of efficacy and efficate are just bad grammar as I have never used those words before but I threw them in anyway [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited June 01, 2003).]

Posted on: Sun, 06/01/2003 - 1:33am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] Eric, are Chips A'Hoy safe in Canada? (I think that was last months treat)
[/b]
Yes, Chips Ahoy and Oreos are safe in Canada (the regular variety). [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 06/01/2003 - 2:58am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
I would not say that the label means anything on its own. ............... When banning peanuts from a classroom, you would need formalized actions that were measurable, defineable, and realistically achievable and I believe banning peanuts from a classroom is realistically achievable as we have seen in many schools (Cayley's Mom, Cynde, etc).[/b]
Disclaimer: the following is not advice in any manner or form. Merely my own opinion:
I won't believe a "ban" or a "peanut-free" anything is realistically achievable until I see a PPP or SoC and/or SOP that demonstrates such ability. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Link of interest entitled:
[b]"IMPLEMENTING THE COMPREHENSIVE TEST BAN
New Aspects of Definition, Organization
and Verification"[/b]
SIPRI Research Report No. 8
edited by ERIC ARNETT
[url="http://editors.sipri.se/pubs/CTBpress.html"]http://editors.sipri.se/pubs/CTBpress.html[/url]
Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
But it may not be realistically achievable in ALL schools.... if you are in Georgia peanut growing country and attempt this, the farmers would cry foul and call you a communist and I don't think there'd be much chance of success.[/b]
Do you think appropriate PPP, SoC, and/or SOP can remove this concern from the mix or at least make it [i]negligible[/i]?
Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]
So to repeat, I would not think a label on its own would accomplish anything as you need to have much more behind the label... so the answer is that the efficacy of the label on its own is not as efficate as formalized actions that were measurable, defineable, and realistically achievable procedures and policies that are behind the label.[/b]
Is there efficacy in a label? Does the label matter at all? If the correct PPP, SoC, and/or SOP are in place, measurable, defineable, realistically achievable and therefore enforceable? If you claim yes, please give examples. In no way am I saying there are not examples. Just like to see where they are and under what circumstances.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post.

Posted on: Sun, 06/01/2003 - 1:27pm
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Hi Momma Bear,
Quote:originally posted by Momma Bear
[b]I won't believe a "ban" or a "peanut-free" anything is realistically achievable until I see a PPP or SoC and/or SOP that demonstrates such ability[/b]
Quote:originally posted by Cayley's Mom (comments which I agree with):
[b]We have many, many "peanut-free" schools here in Canada and no nurses to rely on. We rely mainly on voluntary compliance with regard to not sending peanut products to schools, and for the most part, it works brilliantly. On the other hand, very few American schools are peanut-free.[/b]
Difference in opinion......
So I think all we have is a difference in opinion. Some of us believe a "peanut ban" is realistically achievable, while some of us do not believe a "peanut ban" is realistically achievable.
Quote:originally posted by Cayley's Mom
[b]I feel that mixing Canadian and American input is adding to the circular feeling.[/b]
I think we are making progress in the discussion, but I do believe an attempt to find a one solution fits all won't happen, as it will always be a circular discussion between those who believe a "peanut ban" is realistically achievable (many of us who have peanut free schools here in Ontario), and those who do not believe a "peanut ban" is realistically achievable.
But even if we can't solve that, there are a lot of other good things coming out of this thread and all of us, myself included, are learning a lot. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited June 01, 2003).]

Posted on: Sun, 06/01/2003 - 1:32pm
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Quote:originally posted by Momma Bear
[b]Do you think appropriate PPP, SoC, and/or SOP can remove this concern from the mix or at least make it negligible? [/b]
I don't think so. In an area such as parts of Georgia where peanuts are critical to the local economy and there are lots of jobs tied to the peanut industry, I do not think it is likely to be able to do much in the local schools. That is just my opinion. I wonder if there is anyone here at PA.COM from an area where peanuts are a major part of the local economy... it would be interesting to hear of their experiences in the schools.

Posted on: Sun, 06/01/2003 - 1:36pm
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Is there efficacy in a label? Does the label matter at all? If the correct PPP, SoC, and/or SOP are in place, measurable, defineable, realistically achievable and therefore enforceable? If you claim yes, please give examples.[/b]
Well, I am too tired after bike riding all afternoon to give examples, so I'll say "no" [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] haha
Actually, I don't think it matters what label we use. So if one school was labelled as "peanut-free", but the other school wasn't, but the ppp, soc, etc were identical, I do not think that one school would be more 'efficate' than the other... the substance behind the label is more crucial than the label itself. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
As I said, a classroom that was called "peanut-free" could theoretically have more peanuts in it than one that did not use the label "peanut-free"..... it all depends on what is behind the label [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 06/01/2003 - 11:39pm
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Goodness me!! this thread is STILL going!!!
I went away for the weekend , fully expecting this thread to have dropped, so after eyes crossing over sooooooooo many pages , will now add,
That I really dislike the idea of a peanut free table in schools.
From the age of five, most children should have learnt how to eat in a sensible way.
But, above all this , the children should be well supervised.
Allergic children , (if they can remember the last reaction)seem to naturally avoid contact with food that they know has not been checked.
There is nothing wrong with my child or any other allergic child, so why punish them in this way by putting them on seperate tables or halls or other class rooms to eat their safe meal?
I think that peanut free tables are a cop out for sloppy unthinking school staff , who think that by pushing the allergic children in one table in the corner they are safe.
Yet another example of a false sense of security.
There are other more child friendly ways of handling this situation.
Then there is the point that we are not doing our allergic child any favours by segregating in this way, as they grow older there will be more and more life skills to learn managing this allergy.
Learning to eat around strangers, friends , is a fact of life.
Had better go and get the kids from school!!!!
bye
sarah

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 12:03am
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Hello everyone
I want to think everyone this thread is very good.It has given me more information for the
up comming school year for dd.
I am not a debator,how ever I agree peanut ban is not the answer nor is peanut free tables. I am not sure what is the answer,or
if there is one, I have faith we all will find the answer hopefully soon.
Love this site
Synthia

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 12:08am
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Quote:Originally posted by synthia:
[b]I am not a debator,how ever I agree peanut ban is not the answer [/b]
Hi Synthia,
Let me guess... you are in the USA? haha [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
I am glad this thread has been helpful to you.

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 12:21am
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Quote:Originally posted by williamsmummy:
[b] That I really dislike the idea of a peanut free table in schools.
[/b]
I also don't like to see the PA child isolated from everyone. That's why I don't like peanut free tables either.

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 1:06am
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erik
Yes peanut free table is isolation.The word
isolation it is used 2 times in my dd IEP refering to her peanut free table.
Not to mention other issues I have with the
school.
Love this site
Synthia

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 1:26am
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Hi Synthia,
Yes... with all the other stuff PA kids have to deal with, I agree that we don't want to isolate them at a peanut free table. It sounds like you are having a lot of problems with your school.. maybe Gail's solution may help to give you some ideas [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
hmm. wonder where Gail is these days? fishing again? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 3:07am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] And regarding your other post MB, I doubt the PTA would be included in the rules and regs. They are a volunteer organization.
[/b]
I have been thinking about this - and I've totally changed my mind. The PTA WOULD be included in rules and regs. They are a volunteer organizations set up specifically to help the children. Therefore, yes, they definitely do have to follow all proceedures.
Apparently I was suffering brain freeze when I posted earlier.

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 3:16am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by williamsmummy:
[b]I think that peanut free tables are a cop out for sloppy unthinking school staff , who think that by pushing the allergic children in one table in the corner they are safe.
Yet another example of a false sense of security.
[/b]
Very logical thinking Sarah! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
I definitely think banning peanuts is doable. I'm not [i]personally[/i] a strong supporter of it.
As for peanut free tables, I don't really have a strong opinion. I definitely think forcing a child to sit alone is cruel. When I worked in the lunch room we had a child with a fish allergy. If anyone sitting at his table brought in fish he would come to me to tell me he was going to sit somewhere else - I allowed him to take a few friends with him. At first the school objected to him bringing friends with him (lets keep everyone in their place) but I just ignored the vice-principal and did what was best for the child (with his mom's permission). Since three boys sitting at a different table didn't cause the roof to cave in, eventually I was able to prove to the vice-principal that it was OK.
I also felt that a bucket of soapy water for over one hundred students to wash their hands in was not the best idea. Again, against the v.p. orders, I let my little fish allergic friend go to the bathroom to wash his hands. [i]Personally, I felt everyone should be doing that, but a bucket of water was the best I could get the school to agree to[/i].

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 3:46am
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Wow! 10 pages! Have we set a record?
(just got here today --can't think of anything to say right now --be back later)

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 10:38am
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eric,
Originally posted by erik:
"I would not say that the label means anything on its own. ............... When banning peanuts from a classroom, you would need formalized actions that were measurable, defineable, and realistically achievable and I believe banning peanuts from a classroom is realistically achievable as we have seen in many schools (Cayley's Mom, Cynde, etc)."
I'm hearing my highschool math teacher (same teach for algebra, geometry, trig, and calc) saying I "would find practical use" for what information he was imparting to us in those 4 years........... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[i]He was right[/i].
I remember Proving equations. Proving Theorems. LOL.
If what you say is true, "Peanut Free/and or Ban" then define both, and Prove to me such is [i]realistically achievable[/i] by showing me how PPP, SoC, and/or SOP can be developed around such, thus making those situations a reality. All your telling me is that such [i]is[/i] realistically achievable. Your not showing me why and how.
Wow me. The chalkboard is yours.
PS. If you can do it without creating liability, you are a god. Not necessarily saying liability is not a [i]good thing[/i]. (Motivation?) Not necessarily saying you can [b]force[/b] someone accept all liability created. (Does this possibly mean there is no efficacy in something?) Not necessarily saying liability doesn't exist whether someone is willing to accept or create it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Some interesting links mentioning "Mathematical Proof" "Mathematical Logic" or "Proof":
[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/8830/mathproofcreat.html"]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/8830/mathproofcreat.html[/url]
[url="http://www.cut-the-knot.com/books/natnum/sample.shtml"]http://www.cut-the-knot.com/books/natnum/sample.shtml[/url]
[url="http://www.bluemoon.net/~watson/proof.htm"]http://www.bluemoon.net/~watson/proof.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.math.gatech.edu/~thomas/FC/fourcolor.html"]http://www.math.gatech.edu/~thomas/FC/fourcolor.html[/url]
[url="http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html"]http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html[/url]
[url="http://www.sunsite.ubc.ca/LivingMathematics/V001N01/UBCExamples/Pythagoras/pythagoras.html"]http://www.sunsite.ubc.ca/LivingMathematics/V001N01/UBCExamples/Pythagoras/pythagoras.html[/url]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the links in this post.

Posted on: Mon, 06/02/2003 - 2:51pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b]Wow! 10 pages! Have we set a record?
[/b]
Not quite yet - the rudeness thread is 14 pages and growing...
Momma Bear- time for me to sleep.. I'll have to answer your question from this thread and from the other thread tomorrow... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 4:38am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Again, sounds like a common sentiment. Would you say the majority of children in a traditional school setting will experience exclusion or isolation or "feeling different" at one point or another in their school career (and beyond)?
If, inevitably, it will, would it behoove me, to prepare my child to deal effectively with such situations as may happen in the course of life? ie: Anticipatory Guidance? Would it behoove my child to learn such earlier than later? (Quite possibly with respect to things about my child that my child may not have much power to change?)
[/b]
I agree with your point here MB. Like it or not, there are things in "life" that PA kids won't be able to participate in due to the allergy. There are things in "life" asthmatic kids won't be able to participate in due to their condition. There are things diabetic kids won't...etc., etc., etc.
But we may be falling into the argument of whether a school setting is/must be reflective of real "life" or whether it is an artificial environment produced to provide the "best" learning situation for groups of same-age children.
I personally feel it is an artificial environment.
We were discussing creative measures to help avoid allergic kids from being excluded from school events:
One way our allergy committee plans to help food allergic students from feeling excluded is by setting up our own food table at bake sales. We would approach the families of these kids and ask them to send in safe food for their child. The kids can then "buy" from our table rather than having to miss out on the fun.
We also want to have some kind of checklist system in place for field trip organizers and committee leaders where one item to be checked off is whether food allergic children are involved. If so, organizers must provide in writing the measures being taken to include those students in the event/trip. These checklists would be signed-off by the principal.(Thanks PeanutTrace! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] )

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 5:00am
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b] I personally feel it is an artificial environment.
[/b]
Artifical, yes, Perfect, ____? (Yes/No)
(Fill in the blank) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Part of my journey *personally* has been realizing it is not a perfect world.
Ethically speaking, Morally speaking, Legally speaking. Never will be.
This has been a turning point for me, *personally*, and difficult, to say the least.
Perhaps this is why *personally speaking* education, awareness, logic, motivation, and sincerity of heart are dear to me.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 5:58am
erik's picture
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Quote:originally posted by Momma Bear:
[b]If what you say is true, "Peanut Free/and or Ban" then define both[/b]
My definition would be an area where peanut products are restricted, but no absolute guarantee that it would be 100% effective as nothing in life is perfect, as to quote the words of the illustrious Momma Bear: [i]Part of my journey *personally* has been realizing it is not a perfect world.[/i] so I don't think we can ever find the perfect solution.
Quote:originally posted by Momma Bear:
[b]Prove to me such is realistically achievable by showing me how PPP, SoC, and/or SOP can be developed around such, thus making those situations a reality. [/b]
hmmmm ... to flip the coin, you didn't prove to me that restricting peanuts from the classroom is not realistically achieveable. How would you prove that this is not realistically achieveable? How would you prove that Ontario schools are not safe for PA kids?
Also, I have noticed that no PA children have died in Ontario when they were in a so-called "peanut-free" area. So I would take this as proof that we are achieving some success.
Quote:originally posted by Momma Bear:
[b]All your telling me is that such is realistically achievable. Your not showing me why and how.[/b]
Why do I believe it is realistically achieveable? Well, by looking at the examples and we have many successful examples here in Ontario. To quote the well known debator and pacifist and SF fan Cayley's Mom: [i]We have many, many "peanut-free" schools here in Canada and no nurses to rely on. We rely mainly on voluntary compliance with regard to not sending peanut products to schools, and for the most part, [b]it works brilliantly.[/b][/i] So if someone as intelligent and sensible and logical (in a Vulcan sort of way) as Cayley's Mom says peanut-free schools can work brilliantly, I am inclined to take this as proof, as she has a lot more experience with Ontario schools than me (I have no kids so I am not as familiar with the school system).
Quote:originally posted by Momma Bear:
[b]PS. If you can do it without creating liability, you are a god. [/b]
Zeus? Ares? hmmm... my wish would be to become the god of peanut-free chocolate. Although I do not think liability is a big issue, as so long as the school makes the effort to create a safe environment, liability should not be a major concern, and the courts in Canada have agreed with this as [i]"There is no legal obligation to eliminate all risk. To date, the courts (in Canada) have refused to accept the general proposition that a school board is an "insurer" of all risks potentially confronting its students. Rather, a school board's duty is to exercise reasonable care and skill to see that its students are kept reasonably safe[/i] so I believe we can restrict peanuts from schools without having to be handcuffed by liability concerns. Note that this only refers to Canada, as liability issues may be handled differently by American courts (I am not familiar with American legal issues).
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 6:03am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b] I agree with your point here MB. Like it or not, there are things in "life" that PA kids won't be able to participate in due to the allergy.[/b]
Hi Arachide,
That may be true, but why should the PA kids be excluded from so many things. As an example (as was posted recently), why would a teacher bring in an unsafe snack (ie: Timbits) which all the kids can enjoy except for the PA kid, who will be excluded and isolated. It would have been [b]just as easy[/b] to bring in a peanut-free snack so that everyone could enjoy it including the PA child. Bringing in an unsafe snack just demonstrates to me the fact the teacher is lazy and/or does not care about the PA child's feelings.
I also like what Williamsmummy wrote about not isolating the PA children at peanut-free tables:
Quote:Originally posted by williamsmummy:
[b] I think that peanut free tables are a cop out for sloppy unthinking school staff , who think that by pushing the allergic children in one table in the corner they are safe.
Yet another example of a false sense of security.
[/b]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited June 03, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 7:06am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] I definitely think banning peanuts is doable. I'm not [i]personally[/i] a strong supporter of it.[/b]
Hi Anna Marie,
I agree it is doable. In my case, I would feel relatively safe in a school that did not ban peanuts (I already did it once when I was a kid), although I would have preferred to not have to worry about other kids eating peanut butter sandwiches around me as it always made me nervous.

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 7:10am
arachide's picture
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erik, I absolutely agree with you. There's no need for PA students to be excluded from school activities --there are alternatives for mostly everything in a school setting for PA kids since things (meaning events, parties, activities) are organized, conceived, planned in advance (they're supposed to be anyway).
The point I was trying to make about "artificial" environment is that it's an environment that can be be "controlled" because it is constructed. In other words PPP and SOC's so that students are not discriminated agaist due to disabilty.
Kinda like the boulder and piano example we discussed before.
My PA child has the right to participate in school events because he is a member of the school population. He also has the right to eat a peanut butter sandwich, but obviously can't because it could kill him ("life" vs "school").

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 9:00am
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b] The point I was trying to make about "artificial" environment is that it's an environment that can be be "controlled" because it is constructed. In other words PPP and SOC's so that students are not discriminated agaist due to disabilty.
Kinda like the boulder and piano example we discussed before.
[/b]
I agree with this. It was my experience that SoC and PPP created some segregation (for the intended purpose of protection/safety), and that it is the 504 (USA) that can help protect our children from this type of discrimination.
The problem is, sometimes, as you mentioned, that events aren't always pre-planned or "controlled". School is certainly not a perfectly controlled environment, and pre-planning obviously is a key. The school can try to address that by, for example, stating what advance notice a parent is required to give the teacher when bringing in food for the class. This would give the PA parent an opportunity, a defined window of time, to read the ingredient label and pre-approve it.
[b] Quote: originally posted by erik
"Also, I have noticed that no PA children have died in Ontario when they were in a so-called "peanut-free" area. So I would take this as proof that we are achieving some success." [/b]
erik, your statement is so sad to me. I understand your point is that death certainly is definable and measurable. But I'd hate for "non-death" to be your indicator (let alone a sole indicator) of success. Your statement raised an interesting question... [i][b]what criteria would you use to measure success/failure? [/i][/b]
Death. Allergic reactions. Social isolation. What else? As you know, Mariah had several reactions at school which were the to the creation of some standards. It would be very valuable to track the number of allergic reactions occuring in schools. However, except the very few that have been reported to FAAN there really is no central reporting that is in place.
Just some random thoughts.
I'm glad this thread continues. I find it interesting and helpful.
Gail

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 9:34am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Gail, what a fabulous idea. Is there a way anyone with children could get their schools to co-operate with this? The parents here could start a thread listing reactions that occurred at school, and listing whether peanuts are banned in school/class/not at all, etc. But that would include only their own children. Some schools have more than one pa child.
My son's school doesn't allow peanuts, and I think there are a few kids with pa there. If there is a way we could all approach the principals I would be willing to approach mine as well. I'm sure with her it would have to be unofficial, but, it would still assist in showing what is and what is not working.
If people think this is a good idea we can start a new thread, or, if rather than a thread you would prefer graphable info, I'm willing to set up an e-mail account and keep track.
[i]If I'm chasing my tail again, just tap me on the nose and send me back to the thinking chair[/i].

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 10:42am
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We are headed in the right direction.
Love this site
Synthia

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 11:27am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] erik, your statement is so sad to me. I understand your point is that death certainly is definable and measurable. But I'd hate for "non-death" to be your indicator (let alone a sole indicator) of success. Your statement raised an interesting question... [i]what criteria would you use to measure success/failure? [/i]
[/b]
Hi Gail...
Non-death is not my indicator. Because it could just be your are lucky, and then you have a death.... kind of like you ate Nestle Crunch 'may contain' for years with no problem.. tomorrow could be the day the reaction happens [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]
But Momma Bear seems to think that our schools in Ontario are not safe, I just wrote that we have had no deaths in peanut-free environments to demonstrate that our schools can't be as unsafe as she thinks... (if peanut bans were not safe, I am sure we would have had deaths by now)... but you are correct in asking what criteria would you use to measure success/failure. It is a good question and I don't have any answers... something to think about [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
I don't know how I can prove to Momma Bear (as she requested)that our schools are safe... plus I am not a math expert anyway so I didn't read those math links yet.. haha [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited June 03, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 12:16pm
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Non-death is not my indicator. [/b]
What [i]is[/i] your indicator?
Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b]But Momma Bear seems to think that our schools in Ontario are not safe
[/b]
I just don't equate stamping "Peanut Free/Ban" with making a situation safe. Tell me what you think creates a safe situation. As I believe many here are seeking such information? Maybe it's just me, I could be wrong.
I also don't necessarily equate coincidence with efficacy. As it may be risky to do so. Does such (coincidence and efficacy) need to be verified?
Disclaimer:I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 12:36pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] What is your indicator?[/b]
I don't know... Gail suggested earlier tonight we should try to determine criteria how to determine indicators to measure safety so I hope everyone can post ideas on this.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] I just don't equate stamping "Peanut Free/Ban" with making a situation safe. [/b]
I agree with you 100%. Just stamping "peanut-free" won't necessarily mean anything.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Tell me what you think creates a safe situation. [/b]
I think our "peanut-free" schools in Ontario do create a safe situation, and others agree with me (example: "We rely mainly on voluntary compliance with regard to not sending peanut products to schools, and for the most part, it works brilliantly" writes a person more eloquent than me [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] )
And I agree that just because there are no reactions does not mean it is a safe situation.. it could just be a coincidence.... although I would assume the more reactions that occur, the more unsafe the environment most likely is ...
Although I also agree you can be safe even with peanuts around - the most important thing is to be CAREFUL at all times. Williamsmummy and Gail both demonstrate that children can be safe in an environment with peanuts. But I still belive restricting peanuts would make it safer.

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 1:28pm
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] "We rely mainly on voluntary compliance with regard to not sending peanut products to schools, and for the most part, it works brilliantly"
[/b]
If "Peanut Free" doesn't mean PEANUT-FREE, then why the label at all?

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 1:37pm
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
If "Peanut Free" doesn't mean PEANUT-FREE, then why the label at all?
[/b]
We could call it a "reduce the risk classroom"? Or perhaps "restrict the peanuts classroom"? hmmmm maybe some of the others have some suggestions.. what do you all think? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I like the PPP term... why not call it a PPP classroom, as [b]Peanut Products Prohibited[/b] ?
[This message has been edited by erik (edited June 03, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 4:01pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] I like the PPP term... why not call it a PPP classroom, as [b]Peanut Products Prohibited[/b] ?
[/b]
lol
I'll pppppass. With a child in jk, that just sounds like the bathroom. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 10:44pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] lol
I'll pppppass. With a child in jk, that just sounds like the bathroom. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img][/b]
haha [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 06/03/2003 - 11:28pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] [i][b]what criteria would you use to measure success/failure? [/i][/b]
[/b]
One idea that comes to mind is requesting that lunch monitors (and other staff) be provided with some kind of 1 pager occurrence report form where they can check-off the particulars of any peanut "infraction" and jot down any necessary details in pointform (make it super easy to complete --user-friendly).
The report is then sent to the principal takes whatever necessary measures.
The reports provide stats measuring efficacy(!) of PPP.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [i]Document, document, document...[/i]

Posted on: Wed, 06/04/2003 - 1:44am
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b] The reports provide stats measuring efficacy(!) of PPP.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [i]Document, document, document...[/i] [/b]
Hi Arachide,
That's a good idea.... the more stats we have, the better we can analyze the efficacy of the situation. It is hard now to determine what is or is not safe as we don't necessarily have any results/stats to demonstrate the efficateness of various schools (besides personal experience).
Some PA kids seem to have multiple reactions each year and some have no reactions.. it would be interesting to have stats comparing the PPPs between various schools and the safety of the various schools. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 06/04/2003 - 2:06am
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b] One idea that comes to mind is requesting that lunch monitors (and other staff) be provided with some kind of 1 pager occurrence report form where they can check-off the particulars of any peanut "infraction" and jot down any necessary details in pointform (make it super easy to complete --user-friendly).
The report is then sent to the principal takes whatever necessary measures.
The reports provide stats measuring efficacy(!) of PPP.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [i]Document, document, document...[/i] [/b]
I like this!
In your situation, arachide, perhaps the food could be returned home in a zip-lock bag along with that notice/form... you know, something along the lines of "Our cafeteria monitors are returning this food and asking that your child eat it away from school grounds. We appreciate your cooperation in keeping X school a "peanut free" environment to keep our children safe..." Blanks to write in the date, the food, etc. blah, blah, Copy to principal/school nurse for data collection, review and follow up.
You are so very wise to set it up that all policing/enforcing are clearly the role of school staff (including volunteer staff that are monitored by school staff). This will free you of that role and put you (PA parent) in the much better one of "helper".
(BTW, this situation would never have worked at my school. I'm just trying to work with the parameters of your school situation... )
JMHO,
Gail

Posted on: Wed, 06/04/2003 - 3:06am
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Gail, just curious as to why an occurrence report system of some kind would'nt have worked at your school?

Posted on: Wed, 06/04/2003 - 5:58am
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b]Gail, just curious as to why an occurrence report system of some kind would'nt have worked at your school?[/b]
Because there is no "ban" in place. The school does not restrict food that students bring in. The school has done a good job at providing nut-free foods that [i]they [/i]provide (e.g. PTA events, school food service), but only "requests" that students/parents "voluntarily" refrain from sending in foods with nut products.
Gail
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited June 04, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 06/04/2003 - 11:30pm
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Schools IMO should not be 'peanut free'
they should be 'peanut allergy aware'.
You can not ban food from schools.
The school staff educated to be allergy aware is of far more use to an allergic child , than all the peanut free tables or having a school that proclaims its a 'peanut free zone'.
sarah

Posted on: Thu, 06/05/2003 - 12:02am
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Quote:Originally posted by williamsmummy:
[b]Schools IMO should not be 'peanut free'
they should be 'peanut allergy aware'.
You can not ban food from schools.
The school staff educated to be allergy aware is of far more use to an allergic child , than all the peanut free tables or having a school that proclaims its a 'peanut free zone'.
sarah
[/b]
With regards to food:
I *personally* believe it may be quite possible for the schools can adjust what [b]they supply [/b]
Other than that, I *personally* agree with williamsmummy.
PS. I *personally, and with regards to my own individual and personal situation* find the idea of "segregating" children (ie: pulling from the lunch group to sit in another room or office------[i]as was done to my child in the name of "protecting him"[/i]) who happen to have the "wrong" food in their lunch to give me a sinking feeling. It punches a hole in the hull of my ship of "giving as good as we get". I also find the words "my rights end where your nose begins" to have special meaning here.
I have come to realize it is [b]my[/b] child with the disability, and in *my own personal situation* I can only request to affect the lives of others [i]so much[/i].
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Thu, 06/05/2003 - 12:08am
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Quote:Originally posted by williamsmummy:
[b] The school staff educated to be allergy aware is of far more use to an allergic child , than all the peanut free tables or having a school that proclaims its a 'peanut free zone'.
[/b]
Hi Williamsmummy,
How about a situation whereby peanuts are banned... [b]and[/b] ... the school staff is educated to be allergy aware? Please note that I am talking about younger children.
As "Mom of William" (hmmm... now that's a coincidence! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] ) posted in the introduction boards yesterday, the lunch lady loved the fact that the FDA gave the school free peanut butter, and as a result in his fourth grade year, he had five reactions in three months.
So I think in some situations, a peanut ban may be helpful as it will reduce the risk of reactions. Here in Ontario, peanuts are banned from many schools and it seems to work well here.
However, some people do feel comfortable sending their PA child to a school where peanuts are allowed. In your case, it works great and in my case, it worked fine too (I never had a peanut ban). So my point would be that one solution does not fit all. We all have to tailor our solutions to our own situations. I had no peanut ban so when I was in school I had to be extra aware and careful and it worked for me so well I even went on field trips to Ottawa and Quebec City with no written plans, procedures, and no epi-pen (they didn't exist in those days) so my safety was all based on myself being allergy aware and careful (though I must note peanut products were not as prevelant in the old days, although there were a fair number of kids who ate peanut butter sandwiches).
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 06/05/2003 - 12:12am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] to give me a sinking feeling. It punches a hole in the hull of my ship [/b]
glub glub glub?
maybe you'll see Cayley's Mom down there? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] hehe

Posted on: Thu, 06/05/2003 - 12:19am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] glub glub glub?
maybe you'll see Cayley's Mom down there? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] hehe
[/b]
glub glub glub erik. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. [b]June[/b] already. The air will soon be filled with [i]Wedding Bells[/i].
[i]How's the ring comming, Eric?[/i]
Free Advice: I have found establishing a good working relationship with a *personal* jeweler early in our marriage, (actually before) was the smartest thing my hubby ever did. (Aside from marrying me.)

Posted on: Thu, 06/05/2003 - 12:22am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Because there is no "ban" in place. The school does not restrict food that students bring in.
[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited June 04, 2003).][/b]
[i]Why?[/i]Just wondering. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 06/05/2003 - 12:27am
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Quote:Originally posted by williamsmummy:
[b] The school staff educated to be allergy aware is of far more use to an allergic child , than all the peanut free tables or having a school that proclaims its a 'peanut free zone'.
sarah
[/b]
Hi Sarah - as Erik mentioned in his post, Cayley's school is [b]both[/b] peanut-free [b]and[/b] employs allergy aware staff. Most, and I daresay all, schools that are peanut-free do not hang all of their reaction-free hopes on the fact that parents of students will always comply with the directive to refrain from sending peanut products. They're trained to prevent allergic reactions *just in case* and they're trained to deliver the EpiPen *just in case* and they're trained to know exactly what anaphylaxis looks like *just in case*.
Honestly, that is what drives me around the bend about FAAN's "stance" (if they still have a stance) on peanut bans. The assumption that the staff will presume a reaction CAN'T be a reaction because the school is peanut-free is not only a flawed assumption, but it also insults the intelligence of the school staff.
Adressing this part of your post: "You can't have a peanut ban". OK, technically, you can't guarantee a ban means peanut-free; that's been established over and over again in this thread - but you [i]vastly[/i] reduce the chances of having a reaction if kids do not bring drippy peanut butter sandwiches or crumbly peanut butter cookies to school every day, right? If the staff is told to intercept peanut products and has food for the student to replace such a sandwich that is called vigilance. Although, in Cayley's school's 5th year of being peanut-free, I can't imagine a PB sandwich or cookie being sent in - but the staff still watches for it, in any case.
Vigilance is the only way to prevent a reaction, and sometimes even that is undermined by unfortunate circumstances. However, a peanut-free school is not being touted here as the be-all and end-all of safe schools. It is a tool to help keep students safe - a cog in the allergy aware wheel, if you will.
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 06/05/2003 - 12:50am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] glub glub glub erik. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[i]How's the ring comming, Eric?[/i]
[/b]
No ring in the immediate future... but in the next year or so, most likely yes [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 06/05/2003 - 1:15am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b] OK, technically, you can't guarantee a ban means peanut-free; that's been established over and over again in this thread - but you [i]vastly[/i] reduce the chances of having a reaction if kids do not bring drippy peanut butter sandwiches or crumbly peanut butter cookies to school every day[/b]
I agree that this is a key point. A "peanut-free" school is not a guarantee as I have written countless times. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] But by keeping 99.9% or more of peanut products out of the school [b]it does vastly reduce the chances of a reaction[/b]. Look at "Mom of William", whose child was constantly having reactions in a class filled with peanut butter products. Restricting peanuts will improve safety - how can you have an allergic reaction to a product that is not there?
Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]a peanut-free school is not being touted here as the be-all and end-all of safe schools. It is a tool to help keep students safe - a cog in the allergy aware wheel, if you will.[/b]
This is another key point. I think people may think we may be saying that stamping "peanut-free" on a school means it will be safe and that's all she wrote. But the key point is that it is just one of many tools to keep the PA child safe. A "label" alone won't do it unless there is substance behind the label (policies, procedures, training, etc)
Thanks for surfacing again Cayley's Mom.... you can always put my thoughts into words better than me. I should hire you as my personal speechwriter! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Note: Please know that I am not saying that allowing your child to go to a school in an environment filled with peanut products ensures that allergic reactions will be inevitable. I am just saying it will easier to prevent allergic reactions if a school bans peanuts and creates policies and procedures and training, but if your school won't do that, don't give up - you can still fight for your child's safety - you can be a peanut safety pioneer! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited June 05, 2003).]

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