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Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:08am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] ok, song bird. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
If it were you, would you want (possibly need) PPP and/or SOC in place by which to "enable" such a lable?[/b]
Yes... if a peanut ban was announced and that was it, it would be meaningless. You need substance... sich as points that were mentioned in that fine link you showed me:
[i]Under these circumstances, it becomes the responsibility of the nurse to work with the chief administrator to develop an emergency plan so that the staff designated to administer the medication are appropriately trained and prepared to handle the scenarios that may result. The nurse must verify staff competency in carrying out the procedure, assure patient safety, and inform the chief administrator if the task needs to be assigned to some one else [/i]
etc............. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:09am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]I just wanted to say I'm reading all this...concur w/ MommaBear, and commend you all for hanging in and discussing this issue to (what I believe) is the natural, logical path.
Note: when I was employed at a university as a health educator, we regularly consulted with the university's [b]"Office of Risk Management"[/b] ---the legal department. I believe MommaBear's piano vs. boulder is absolutely on point.[/b]
[b][i]Gail!!!![/i][/b],
You [b]DO[/b] realize your "Food Free" classroom is on the spectrum I'm thinking of? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:12am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Is it easier for the school to eliminate PB from it's menu than [i]control[/i] PB from being [i]brought in[/i]? [/b]
Yes. I believe this is what Becca is trying to do. This is the most important first step. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Easy-ness aside, do you feel it is possible to develop a realistically achievable, defineable, measureable, enforceable PPP to reasonably [i]control[/i] PB (not provided by school) from classroom/school?[/b]
Yes, I believe this is possible as evident by seevral posters here who have achieved that at their school. Cayley's Mom, Cynde, etc had posted about their child's school having achieved this. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] as opposed to eliminating "May Contains" for example, comming in school from home? [/b]
I would not be concerned about 'may contains'.(my personal opinion). I do not see them as a threat (unless the PA child actually eats them).

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:14am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] [i]Gail!!!![/i],
You DO realize your "Food Free" classroom is on the spectrum I'm thinking of? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b]
Actually, I believe a food free classroom is a good choice as well.
But it is a better solution for the USA than for Canada, since here in Toronto anyway, most public schools do not have lunchrooms so the children must eat lunch in their classrooms.

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:16am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Yes, I believe this is possible as evident by seevral posters here who have achieved that at their school. Cayley's Mom, Cynde, etc had posted about their child's school having achieved this.
[/b]
[i]show me.[/i]
(In my best "John Wayne" voice)
And I don't mean slapping a "Peanut Free/Ban" label on, either. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[b]Pilgrim.[/b]
America: "John Wayne"
Canada: "Celine Dion"

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:20am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] You need substance... [/b]
I told my husband I needed [i]substance[/i]. He gave me three carats. Have you popped the question yet, Eric?
Back to [i]dialogue[/i].........

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:24am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] [i]show me.[/i]
(In my best "John Wayne" voice)[/b]
hmmm.. maybe Cayley's Mom will invite you up to Midland for a few days.. that would be a nice vacation (Georgian Bay is lovely this time of year) , and you can visit her daughter's school and check it out for yourself. hmmmm. I better warn her not to serve you peanut-free waffles for breakfast!!! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] (disclaimer: just a joke! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] )
p.s. no question popped yet, but sometime [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 29, 2003).]

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:26am
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Btw, to add a bit more to the piano story - the boy's father was the principal of the school and he was moving the piano and he told his son not to help but the boy "got in the way". Cayley's paediatrician was called away from her VCUG procedure to work on the boy when he was rushed to the hospital, so I got the inside story a few weeks later. In this sense, it was an accident - they would have basically had to tie the boy up to keep him away from that piano apparently and unfortunately. The father/principal was beside himself, naturally, but the boy, even with a fractured skull, make a full recovery.
But again, my point was that anything could happen to our children.
[/b]
So. Do you think the school was absolved of any responsibility related to the actions of their agent, ie: the principal, merely because the child was the principal's son? Legal? Ethical? I am curious, as I do not know "the rest of the story". Or even if any legal action was taken.
Do you think action could be taken? Legally? Ethically?
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely asking questions.

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:45am
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Completely OT, I'm taking my little one and her Auntie Carolyn (visiting from Auckland NZ) across the street to our county park to go fishing. It's a beautiful, sunny 80 degree day here in St. Louis.... need to break free of the computer and enjoy the glorious day...
(Wondering though....what, if any, requirements I may need to comply with re: fishing in a county park... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] MommaBear, you're a fisherwoman... do I need a fishing license??? Just wondering... don't want to complicate my vision of us swaggering over to the pond whistling the tune to the "Andy Griffith Show".... yet the "definable, measurable, enforceable, realistically achievable" montra strumming through my mind however... )
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Gail

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:55am
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Eric,
Originally posted by MommaBear:
"Is it easier for the school to eliminate PB from it's menu than control PB from being brought in?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Eric:
"Yes. I believe this is what Becca is trying to do. This is the most important first step."
************************************
(Please note portion in BOLD)
Excerpt from my letter of reply (one of many) to the superintendent of my son's prior school last year to school district regarding my son and a 504 plan for PA/NUTS (please note text in bold):
.............."You indicate, in your response,

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 1:58am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] Peanuts are man-made? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img][/b]
Of course not [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] ...but people are the ones who decide what foods they'll bring to school
(I miss Peanut Buster Parfaits from Dairy Queen...sigh) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 2:58am
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MommaBear, did the school ever agree to remove PBJ sandwiches from their federally funded lunch program?

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 3:22am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]MommaBear, did the school ever agree to remove PBJ sandwiches from their federally funded lunch program?[/b]
will note as a part (but not consisting entirely of) of our "reduce the risk" efforts, we requested the Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwich option be removed from the Federally Funded Brown Bag Lunch Program. [b]It was.[/b]
This I also have [b]in writing[/b] from the legal counsel for the school. (In writing, she also expressed her irritation with us withdrawing our son from the school, despite the school having undertaken this measure.)
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 3:31am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]Completely OT, I'm taking my little one and her Auntie Carolyn (visiting from Auckland NZ) across the street to our county park to go fishing. It's a beautiful, sunny 80 degree day here in St. Louis.... need to break free of the computer and enjoy the glorious day...
(Wondering though....what, if any, requirements I may need to comply with re: fishing in a county park... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] MommaBear, you're a fisherwoman... do I need a fishing license??? Just wondering... don't want to complicate my vision of us swaggering over to the pond whistling the tune to the "Andy Griffith Show".... yet the "definable, measurable, enforceable, realistically achievable" montra strumming through my mind however... )
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Gail[/b]
Interesting link. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[url="http://www.fishingworks.com/licenses/index.cfm"]http://www.fishingworks.com/licenses/index.cfm[/url]
I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post. I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 4:05am
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b] (I miss Peanut Buster Parfaits from Dairy Queen...sigh) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img][/b]
Me too!!!
I havent been following everything in this thread, but I thought I would add information about my dd's school.
First of all we do have a lunch room, which I think is of great benefit.
Our lunch menu for the hot lunch program does not include any obvious pn products (I don't know about may contains). Like some of you I am ok with my dd being near may contains. The majority of the kids have the hot lunch.
There are treats brought in for birthdays. Sometimes it is something to be brought home, goody bag. If it is a food treat it must be store bought and packaged with an ingredient list.
This does seem to be fairly standard in my area, as the store bought rule, in the package with an ingredient list is not only at our current school, but also when my dd was in preschool and now my 2 y/o is in a parents day out program and they follow the same guidelines. When I interviewed the program my son was starting they told me the rules on snacks before I even asked. They told me that it is important for them to have this rule in place in case they have an allergic child.
Isnt this progress? I think so! (They did not know I had a pa daughter)
Maggie
[This message has been edited by maggie0303 (edited May 29, 2003).]

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 4:16am
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Anonymous (not verified)

MB, there's no little smiley face with a salute. (I'd put one if I could.)
I'm glad to see that your letter to the school was very clear, very concise. And removing pb from the lunch program, though is a step in the right direction, was not enough.
It seems we are living in different worlds, not just different countries. Today I went to let my son's teacher use an expired epi-pen, which led to a conversation about children's allergies on the way home with some other parents. One woman will be registering her oldest for school starting in Sept. and she was saying it won't be so bad with her daughter, but she's trying to get her son to eat something other than pb. She is moving during the summer, and just assuming that the new school will have a peanut ban, so, she is [b]now[/b] trying to find something her son will eat that will be allowed. I pointed out that not all schools ban peanuts but she said even if the school doesn't ban them, if she ever hears there is a student there with pa she would not send in any pb.
Why is it that me (who's child doesn't need it) is surrounded by such supportive concerned people regarding pa, but others (like yourself and Cindy SC) get stuck fighting against brick walls masquerading as people?
BTW, your letter doesn't appear to be asking for to much, or expecting miracles IMO.

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 6:49am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]MB, there's no little smiley face with a salute. (I'd put one if I could.) ................
BTW, your letter doesn't appear to be asking for to much, or expecting miracles IMO.[/b]
In the voice of a rather large bag pipe playing "Austin Powers" character:
[i][b]Soooooooooo-oooooooooooooo.[/b] Not 'unli doo ya tha'nk U'mmmmmm toleeeeeeeeeeeeeeerunt, butya' tha'nk U'm reeeznuble az well! [/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Thu, 05/29/2003 - 12:04pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
But, you do make debating fun [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 12:41am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]Gail and MommaBear, Thank you both for answering my hypothetical situation. I do actually worry (apparently unnecessarily) that procedures and protocols can end up being so straight and narrow that a change in routine throws a wrench in the system. I'm glad to hear it doesn't. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[/b]
I wanted to comment on this...
My only hesitency about PPP isn't re a change in routine. That hasn't really been a problem in our situation.
I'm more concerned that "erring on the side of caution" can mean separating my daughter in the name of protection. For example, our recent problems have involved sitting on the bus away from dd's friends (in her "cleaned" seat), and dd's PF table developing a negative social stigma.
Perhaps this is where MommaBear and I have a difference in opinion. It is the separation that I personally draw a line ... and why a 504 plan would be more beneficial than my IHP. Section 504 is part of the Americans w/ Disabilities Act which protects citizens from disability discrimination. This is a little tricky, IMHO, because some forms of discrimination I find desirable ("protection") and others not desirable ("discrimination"). I have found that my school nurse has "erred on the side of caution" by advocating for "protection" and we (parents) have wanted more input weighing the social downsides, the "separation".
This is my only concern about PPP, and I would encourage any parent reading this to consider obtaining a 504 plan even if the school has or is developing PPP in order to give yourself the avenue (504 process) for your input on these issues.
Gail

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 12:54am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] I'm more concerned that "erring on the side of caution" can mean separating my daughter in the name of protection. For example, our recent problems have involved sitting on the bus away from dd's friends (in her "cleaned" seat), and dd's PF table developing a negative social stigma.[/b]
Yes, I think this is one reason why I really prefer a peanut ban. As Miriam and others have mentioned, peanut-free tables do not work well as the child feels isolated and alone, and often doesn't want to sit at the peanut-free table anymore since no one sits with them. They feel singled out and ostracized. That is one reason why I like banning peanuts as the PA child will not be singled out and isolated.
I also like the idea of a peanut ban due to the post that Miriam did yesterday about:
1) another child threatening her daughter with peanut products and
2) a friend eating a product with nuts accidentally sticking her hand in the nut-free product
I know if I had been a child with a peanut-free table I would not want to sit there if I would have to sit there alone. If the teacher forced me to sit there against my will, it would have had a negative on my persoanl development as I would have resented my PA more for making me isolated and making me stand out.
The example of only allowing the child to sit on the one seat that had been specifically cleaned seems totally unnecessary to me and by making her sit there (possibly away from her friends) seems to me to be not needed. A much better rule would be to ban food from the bus. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 2:11am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] I wanted to comment on this...
My only hesitency about PPP isn't re a change in routine. That hasn't really been a problem in our situation.
I'm more concerned that "erring on the side of caution" can mean separating my daughter in the name of protection. [/b]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
The question is: "Which end do you want to start at?" ie: in our quest to find the "happy medium". Even better: "Does it exist"?
If someone is confined to a wheelchair, does that necessarily mean others capable of walking need make use of a wheelchair to get from place to place? Or is it "discriminating" that others ambulate on thier own accord?
I note many ramps adjacent to stairs. Should we remove the stairs? Is the intent of a "504" to remove the disability? (is such possible?) Or allow equal access without "fundamentally altering"?
If you look at industry standards, you might run across the term "safety factor". I prefer to think of "erring on the side of caution as having a judicious "safety factor". I don't mind a judicious "safety factor" as long as the "motivation" and "intent" are where they should be.
My son has excersize induced Asthma. As well as other "Asthma triggers". Meds help, but are not 100% effective under certain conditions.
If he were to attend school (as he is homeschooled), should activities such as track, gym, etc, be removed since he has limited ability to participate? In no way am I saying my child does not get enough physical activity or is not physically fit. I'm just saying I won't be dissapointed if he isn't a star athelete.(Although I am aware many with the diagnosis of Asthma are).
Maybe it's just me, Maybe it's just that I don't place as much faith in the title "Star Athlete" as the media and our society apparently does. In my *family* it is not a necessary requirement for *success*, nor do we place a high value on it. We do, understand and stress, however, the importance of being physically fit, from a healthcare point of view.
Is there not a very strong "social component" attached to athletic prowess?
Very long ago, I came to a logical conclusion that everyone had a right to their opinion. I could not force anyone to see the world as I did. Much the same as a person in a wheelchair might not expect me to traverse in one either, as long as I was capable of walking. With this realization came the natural end of "avoiding certain situations", or if I was unable or did not desire to avoid, sacrificing a bit of my *personal comfort* for the chance to participate and learn and "just get along". Occasionally, though, I seek to peer through others "rose colored" glasses, and offer a look through my kalidescope.
In no way am I saying a PA child should not have appropriate "protective" measures in place and all involved adhere to them. Quite the contrary. I'm just saying that a PA child is a PA child.
I see value in other views. The world going round and all that. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] (still can't see the value in "Dodge Ball", however)
PS.......... My opinion may be based on the value I place on "Social" issues. Not that I don't see the need for "Social Normalacy". Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's a "Definition" , "Spectrum", and "Concept" issue.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely relaying my own *personal* and *unique* *individual* situation.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 2:20am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Yes, I think this is one reason why I really prefer a peanut ban.
[/b]
So, erik.
What do you propose we do with "Wheat", "Corn", "Milk", and "Egg"?
For starters.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 3:42am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
So, erik.
What do you propose we do with "Wheat", "Corn", "Milk", and "Egg"?
For starters.[/b]
Sounds like a good recipe for pancakes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 3:44am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] I know if I had been a child with a peanut-free table I would not want to sit there if I would have to sit there alone. If the teacher forced me to sit there against my will, it would have had a negative on my persoanl development as I would have resented my PA more for making me isolated and making me stand out.
[/b]
Yes, erik, I believe that this is what is occuring with Mariah presently. It is truly painful for her.
However, the "ban" was also unsuccessful (she had reactions).
We are working to find a few creative solutions that can satisfy both safety/social needs. I think we will.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 3:48am
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OK... back to reality - anyway, I believe a classroom filled with kids eating sticky peanut butter sandwiches provides a good opportunity for peanut residue to end up all over the place with the kids sticky fingers filled with peanut butter. I don't see kids having milk, corn and wheat sticking to their fingers.
And peanuts cause airborne reactions as the peanut protein/dust becomes airborne, while I do not believe those other products are an airborne threat (well, I guess if you roast corn on the cob on a bbq it could become an airborne threat as well).
It seems that most allergic reactions in schools are caused by nuts. I have not heard of anyone commenting on residue reactions in schools that were caused by milk, eggs, or wheat (maybe it happens but I have not read any postings on this)

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 3:52am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Yes, erik, I believe that this is what is occuring with Mariah presently. It is truly painful for her.
However, the "ban" was also unsuccessful (she had reactions).
[/b]
Hi Gail,
Yes.. in some schools (Cayley's Mom, Cynde, etc) a peanut ban will be successful. In other schools (such as yours) it won't be successful.
Therefore, I think the solution may not always be the same for everyone.
Since a peanut ban did not work, you will have peanuts in the lunchroom. The peanut-free table does not sound like a good option as she will be isolated and this could impact on her self-image, self-confidence and development as an individual and she could resnt the allergy and become bitter about it.
I think a solution can be found, and it sounds like you have actually found one with the strict hand-washing, and other procedures, that have been put into place.
I just think we should not isolate a PA child as that is not fair to them.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 3:59am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[BIf someone is confined to a wheelchair, does that necessarily mean others capable of walking need make use of a wheelchair to get from place to place? Or is it "discriminating" that others ambulate on thier own accord? [/B]
Hi Momma Bear,
A person who is not confined to a wheelchair can walk along with the person in the wheelchair and they can eat in a restaurant with them and they can socialize with them and they can ride the same bus and work in the same office.
But a child with PA who is forced to sit alone at a peanut-free table is isolated, does not have a chance to develop friendships, feels left out ... they could begin to hate school and suffer academically as well if they feel stigmatized.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 4:00am
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MommaBear, are you saying then that some social sacrifice for the PA child may be necessary in order to "err on the side of caution"?
As I believe you meant in your example; you wouldn't expect all phys.ed. classes in a school to be stopped simply so that your child won't feel excluded due to asthma problems.
I totally understand your question about what end of the spectrum does one begin on re: PPP.
Are there not measures "outside" of protective PPP that can "reduce the risk" (not a pun) of social exclusion for PA kids?
I'd love to hear any of creative measures Gail has been thinking of to achieve the happy "social" medium.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 4:13am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b]MommaBear, are you saying then that some social sacrifice for the PA child may be necessary in order to "err on the side of caution"?[/b]
I don't like the idea of social sacrifice. Why should the PA child be excluded? If there is an end-of-year party, will the PA child be excluded since there is nothing safe to eat? If the teacher brings in a box of Timbits, will the PA child be excluded because Timbits are 'may contain', ... if there is a class trip to a bowling alley, will the PA child be excluded because there is a dispensing machine at the bowling alley that sells Snicker's bars?
I know when I was a child at school, I did not want to be excluded and isolated and made to feel different from all the other kids and would want to take part in classroom activities and events. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 30, 2003).]

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 8:43am
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b]MommaBear, are you saying then that some social sacrifice for the PA child may be necessary in order to "err on the side of caution"?
As I believe you meant in your example; you wouldn't expect all phys.ed. classes in a school to be stopped simply so that your child won't feel excluded due to asthma problems.
I totally understand your question about what end of the spectrum does one begin on re: PPP.
Are there not measures "outside" of protective PPP that can "reduce the risk" (not a pun) of social exclusion for PA kids?
I'd love to hear any of creative measures Gail has been thinking of to achieve the happy "social" medium.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]
You're one smart cookie [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I would also be very interested in any creative measures Gail and those involved have devised. (As I tend to believe if anyone could do it, Gail could.) Velvet, hammer and all. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
If you note my letter in response to the school district, posted in this thread, [b]I also had issues with segregating my child [/b]. Particularly since we had no input. Particularly since we deemed it an [i]unsafe[/i] arrangement. Particularly since these particulars might indicate all options were not discussed or discovered. [b]I am a reasonable woman.[/b] I'm surprised at some assumptions being posted in this thread regarding the topic at hand. I'll repost it with the referenced section in bold.
Especially since I offered up some very personal and private thoughts I put into writing. I guess I can't win. Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's social issues. Irregardless, it doesn't seem to change the end result, does it?
ps. Erik, you still seem to equate "peanut ban" with the systematic elimination of peanuts, peanut butter in particular.
Could you clarify the particular effacy you find in "bans" as opposed to outright making a documented specific foods not be brought in (as is reasonably determinable)and educating as appropriate where and when needed as well as providing a resource to which questions concerning the same can be directed?
Do you necessarily feel one is more effective than the other?
originally posted by eric:
[b] "OK... back to reality - anyway, I believe a classroom filled with kids eating sticky peanut butter sandwiches provides a good opportunity for peanut residue to end up all over the place with the kids sticky fingers filled with peanut butter."[/b]
in response to my question regarding "bans".
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 8:52am
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(Please note portion in BOLD)
Excerpt from my letter of reply (one of many) to the superintendent of my son's prior school last year to school district regarding my son and a 504 plan for PA/NUTS (please note text in bold):
.............."You indicate, in your response,

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 12:39pm
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] I would also be very interested in any creative measures Gail and those involved have devised. (As I tend to believe if anyone could do it, Gail could.) Velvet, hammer and all. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [/b]
Well....hmmmm.... I guess I'll be eating my words as I don't know how [i]creative [/i] my approaches actually are.... so ... hope this isn't disappointing... but... here goes...
First, the school decided on the "no food" in the classroom solution. I know we've talked about this a lot already, so I won't belabor it further, except to say that (even tho I orginally opposed it) this has worked out very, very well. i give complete credit to my school for this creative solution.
Re the bus seat, the nurse didn't want to budge. So....the teachers adopted a solution that they thought would address the concern: no student sits alone on the bus. All kids will sit 2 or 3 to a seat. This was added to Mariah's IHP that was revised this spring. It applies to all kids so not to draw attention to Mariah. Two field trips next week, so we'll see how this new approach works.
The "peanut free" table is still a dilema. We had our 6 month check up this week with our allergist, and when Mariah talked about lunch time she cried. She really struggles with it as she is a very social person. We talked about the option of her sitting with kids who eat the hot lunch (nut free), or having a disposible paper place mat in her lunch box each day, and/or how to try to re-establish kids' seating habits. Nothing seems to be a great solution...
What our allergist proposed was to develop a sort of "touch challenge" for Mariah whereby she would sit at a table/surface (in his office at the hospital) that has had peanut butter on it and then cleaned in a manner similar to our lunchroom routine. You might recall that our allergist developed an "open air challenge" (testing for 10 minute air borne exposure) for Mariah prior to her starting kindergarten. Our allergist is wonderful in trying to gather information and work with us. He is excited about this new (creative?) approach that we hope to plan and implement over the summer.
So we'll see. Mariah is +6 and yet, thankfully, her number of reactions has continued to decrease each year. We'll see if this new "test" can be completed over the summer... and if it suggests anything to our allergist. Who knows...
But I agree with you, MommaBear, about "which end" you start at. Mariah has had a reaction-free school year, the first in her life. I am deeply grateful for that. It is sad for me to see her in emotional pain over feeling excluded, little that it is, but hurtful still. I'm sure she would be feeling emotional pain had she had multiple allergic reactions that caused her to leave school ... as has been the case in previous years.
I know and appreciate that our situation is better than many. And that there is no perfect solution. I guess that's what I wanted to point out.. perhaps... that our solution isn't perfect either. Especially if you asked Mariah. But I guess that's all part and parcel of having a peanut allergy: it just sucks having a peanut allergy sometimes.
Gail

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 12:50pm
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] I don't like the idea of social sacrifice.
[/b]
Few people do. Or so I understand.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 1:06pm
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Ive been reading along here because I am in the process of 504 for my son. Im not exactly sure how I want to handle lunch. I did notice someone posted about having a peanut table where the kids with p.b. sat and the pa child could sit at any other table.
Does this seem like a safer alternative to you? I dont know if my school would go along with this but it seems like it would be better to keep all the contamination at one table instead of all but one. Gail? Anyone? Just wondering how you felt about this.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 1:20pm
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Why should the PA child be excluded? If there is an end-of-year party, will the PA child be excluded since there is nothing safe to eat? If the teacher brings in a box of Timbits, will the PA child be excluded because Timbits are 'may contain', ... if there is a class trip to a bowling alley, will the PA child be excluded because there is a dispensing machine at the bowling alley that sells Snicker's bars?
[/b]
Those sound like issues that are subject to regulatory attempts. Aside from mandatory seating arrangements (could this in itself initiate resentment?), I see very little a school can do to instill the virtue of empathy and its characteristic actions in children. Well, maybe expound upon it, but they might be hard pressed to initiate it. That *I personally feel* is something that for the most part, begins within the confines of the family relationship. OR AT LEAST SHOULD.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely sharing my *personal* and individual feelings.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 1:43pm
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] I know when I was a child at school, I did not want to be excluded and isolated and made to feel different from all the other kids and would want to take part in classroom activities and events. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[/b]
Disclaimer: The following is completely my own *personal*, *unique* and *individual* feelings. I am not offering advice in any manner or form:
Again, sounds like a common sentiment. Would you say the majority of children in a traditional school setting will experience exclusion or isolation or "feeling different" at one point or another in their school career (and beyond)?
In no way am I saying events leading up to it are necessarily ethically or morally appropriate, but, I am asking, will it happen, most likely, for one reason or another?
If, inevitably, it will, would it behoove me, to prepare my child to deal effectively with such situations as may happen in the course of life? ie: Anticipatory Guidance? Would it behoove my child to learn such earlier than later? (Quite possibly with respect to things about my child that my child may not have much power to change?)
In no way am I saying reasonable and concerted attempts to address the cause of these feelings should not be made. My child needs to experience the security of support and guidance. I'm just saying that it might be beneficial to have more than one plan. In the long run. The life-long run.
It was asked of me how I kept my thick skin so soft. The process took [i]years[/i], but I am no worse for the wear. I am also very comfortable and content with the skin. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 2:00pm
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]
First, the school decided on the "no food" in the classroom solution. I know we've talked about this a lot already, so I won't belabor it further, except to say that (even tho I orginally opposed it) this has worked out very, very well. i give complete credit to my school for this creative solution.
[/b]
I can't help but see the school [i]wanting[/i] to find a solution for [i]you[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Sometimes you just go out of your way for people.

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 11:01pm
Gail W's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] I can't help but see the school [i]wanting[/i] to find a solution for [i]you[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Sometimes you just go out of your way for people.[/b]
Are you thinking that the school may have been more motivated to find a solution for me because my husband is a physician?

Posted on: Fri, 05/30/2003 - 11:59pm
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Could you clarify the particular effacy you find in "bans" as opposed to outright making a documented specific foods not be brought in (as is reasonably determinable)and educating as appropriate where and when needed as well as providing a resource to which questions concerning the same can be directed? [/b]
Hi Momma Bear,
Could you please re-phrase the question as I am not sure what you are asking. I looked up effacy at [url="http://www.dictionary.com"]www.dictionary.com[/url] but it says "no entry found". Also, isn't "outright making a documented specific foods not be brought in " the same thing as a ban?
So I need you to clarify the question as I am not sure what you are asking.. thanks.. I will be out much of the weekend so I apologize if I can't answer promptly. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 12:10am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] Are you thinking that the school may have been more motivated to find a solution for me because my husband is a physician?
[/b]
My impression was that she was sayingthey wanted to go out of their way for you because you are such a wonderful person? But I really am not sure...
p.s. hope you had a fun day fishing! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
edited to add: when I say "I am not sure", it is regarding I am not sure what Momma Bear was thinking - I realized the way I wrote it, it may have come across to sound as if you are not a wonderful person (I am sure you are) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 31, 2003).]

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 12:28am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] My impression was that she was sayingthey wanted to go out of their way for you because you are such a wonderful person?
[/b]
AMEN.
completely aside from any other influencing factors. *Personally Speaking*, I believe the nature of my profession may have placed the school in my situation on the [i]defensive[/i].
PS. erik, I'll have to get back to your question as well.........dishwasher problems. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/eek.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 1:14am
Gail W's picture
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[b] Quote:Originally posted by erik:
edited to add: when I say "I am not sure", it is regarding I am not sure what Momma Bear was thinking - I realized the way I wrote it, it may have come across to sound as if you are not a wonderful person (I am sure you are) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] [/b]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img] Gosh, thanks guys.
Yes, we had a lovely day fishing. Thanks for the link, MommaBear. My 5-year-old Jessie is a flamboyant dresser, and was quite decked out for the event (including her white tea-party gloves). It was really fun. Didn't catch any fish, but we have before and enjoy watching them in a bucket before releasing them back into the lake.
You know, so many things are "regulated" here in the states (and presumably Canada as well). Even the simple, carefree act of taking my daughter across the street to go fishing. Sometimes i don't think I always recognize how much is regulated because I don't always see it. But the fact that our outting (fishing) is regulated didn't take away an ounce of the pleasure for us.
I think there are lots of wonderful people on these boards, including you both. Thanks for the compliment, BTW. What a great way to start off my wekend! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 3:16am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

MommaBear, if I understand you correctly, you are not requesting (never mind demanding) a peanut ban. I agree with many of the points you've made as to why not.
There are actually a few foods that can cause airborn/touch reactions. Fish is an obvious one, but egg also does. An on-line friend has reactions to smelling wheat. Her reactions (to my knowledge) are not life threatening, but they are debilitating. Makes education very difficult.
When a school chooses to ban peanuts, they should consider the *what ifs* the future could bring.

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 3:19am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

A completely different thought here...
I think I know one of the reasons peanut bans seems to be more easily obtained in Canada. It seems in the states it is very common to have breakfast or lunch programs in elementary school. It isn't as common here.
Peanutbutter is a cheap, healthy food that most children like. The first hurdle is always getting the school to give up serving it. But in Canada less of the elementary schools serve food - it is all brought in by the individual students.
Just my opinion.

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 6:20am
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Hi Momma Bear,
Could you please re-phrase the question as I am not sure what you are asking. I looked up effacy at [url="http://www.dictionary.com"]www.dictionary.com[/url] but it says "no entry found". Also, isn't "outright making a documented specific foods not be brought in " the same thing as a ban?
So I need you to clarify the question as I am not sure what you are asking.. thanks.. I will be out much of the weekend so I apologize if I can't answer promptly. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] [/b]
LOL. [i]efficacy[/i]
[url="http://define.ansme.com/words/e/efficacy.html"]http://define.ansme.com/words/e/efficacy.html[/url]
although I generally am concerned with spelling, it is not one of my obsessions.
FLOG ME.
Dishwasher problem started last night during the post in question. So did 70 mph winds in our area. Dishwasher problem came back with a vengance this morning. I replaced dishwasher during late morning and early afternoon. Nice dishwasher. Hubby will be sooooooooooooooooooo happy. I am goooooooood wife. (Appliance guy was out of item he promised me on phone, gave me 4 grades up for 50 bucks less than 4 grades down. Quiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet. Pretty buttons. Cool handle. No scummy gasket. I like.
Never should have ignored the little noise last night. [i]Little noises can be that way.[/i]
Grammatical correction with spelling correction included in text:
"Could you clarify the particular efficacy you find in "bans" as opposed to outright making a documented request that specific foods not be brought in (as is reasonably determinable)and educating as appropriate where and when needed as well as providing a resource to which questions concerning the same can be directed?"
In addition to high winds (Actually tornado sirens were blarring), cranky dishwasher, I was also stirring rice-pudding (for children's snack time)in between posts. Hope this post is crystal clear.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 6:30am
solarflare's picture
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Food allergies can and do cause exclusion.
Let me tell you about my wonderful, friendly 5 year old who has several friends in his kindergarden class, some of whom have had birthday parties. These kids have told Jason about their parties. Was Jason invited to any of these parties? Not a single one. This is the same child, with the same allergies, who got invited to 3 or 4 birthday parties last year at preschool. The only difference is that I was more vocal about his allergies this year, and it backfired on Jason.
Jason just wants to be a normal kid, and sometimes it takes widening the comfort zone a bit to give him some sense of normalcy.

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 6:55am
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] The first hurdle is always getting the school to give up serving it. But in Canada less of the elementary schools serve food - it is all brought in by the individual students.
Just my opinion.[/b]
Actually, the public school [i]removed[/i] the option of PBJ from the Federal Brown Bag lunch program in our *personal* situation.
What they were resistant to negotiate with was regulating what the PTA provided for school events such as "snack day". Although I *personally* can identify with the concerns a school may have claiming complete regulation of food provided for an individual child by that child's own family......... was the PTA was a "subcontractor" of sorts? If my feelings were on target, would the school have an reasonable obligation to provide equal access to such food related events (ie: "Treat Day") in much the same way Gail's school (if my memory serves me right, again) does?
Was the Federal Brown Bag lunch program covered under Title II of the ADA?
page 70 of "Managing Life-Threatening Food Allergies in Schools":
[url="http://www.doe.mass.edu/cnp/2002/news/allergy.pdf"]http://www.doe.mass.edu/cnp/2002/news/allergy.pdf[/url]
[i]"American with Disabilities Act - Title II
Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), enacted in 1990, prohibits the discrimination against qualified individuals with disabilities in state and local government programs and services, including public schools.
In this respect, the ADA tracks the requirements of Section 504, prohibiting discrimination on the basis of disability by programs receiving Federal funding, such as reimbursement under the school meal programs.
Title II of the ADA does not impose any major new requirements on school districts because the requirements of Title II and Section 504 are similar. Virtually all school districts receive Federal financial assistance and have been rerquired to comply with Section 504 since the 1970's."
Gail's school (to the best of my memory, correct me if I am wrong) contracted a service to provide reasonably safe food in their school lunch program.[/i]
Would the PTA (if considered a "sub-contractor") be addressed by USDA Federal Regulation - 7 CFR 210.10?
On the same page (70):
[i]"USDA Federal Regulation - 7CFR 210.10
(1) Exceptions for medical or special dietary needs. Schools must make substitutions in lunches and afterschool snacks for students who are considered to have a disability under 7 CFR part 15b and whose disability restricts their diet. Schools may also make substitutions for students who do not have a disability but who cannot consume the regular lunch or afterschool snack because of medical or other special dietary needs. Substitutions must be made on a case by case basis only when supported by a statement of the need for substitutions that includes recommended alternate foods, unless otherwise exempted by FNS. Such statement mnust, in the case of a student with a disability, be signed by a physician or, in the case of a student who is not disabled, by a recognized medical authority."[/i]
The "Sample Responses to Address Possible Situations Involving Students with Life-Threatening Food Allergies" on page 71 of the same document was very interesting.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely asking questions. I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post.

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 9:13am
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Quote:In addition to high winds (Actually tornado sirens were blarring)
MommaBear,
We had sirens last night too. Pretty Scary!
Maggie

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 9:59am
MommaBear's picture
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Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by maggie0303:
[b] MommaBear,
We had sirens last night too. Pretty Scary!
Maggie[/b]
[i]we might live on the same block[/i] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sat, 05/31/2003 - 4:28pm
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
LOL. [i]efficacy[/i][/b]
Hi Momma Bear,
Thanks for the definition... I try to have a wide vocabulary but some words I just don't know and this was one of them.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] "Could you clarify the particular efficacy you find in "bans" as opposed to outright making a documented request that specific foods not be brought in (as is reasonably determinable)and educating as appropriate where and when needed as well as providing a resource to which questions concerning the same can be directed?"[/b]
hmmm....
Isn't a ban the same thing as [i]a documented request that specific foods not be brought in[/i]? Maybe you are suggesting that a ban does not include [i]educating as appropriate as well as providing a resource to which questions can be directed[/i]?
Well, the type of ban I am proposing would include both documented requests, education, and resources to which questions can be directed.
Although it may not be a good plan for me to attempt an answer to your question at 2:30 am after a busy day as I may not be crystal clear but I'm sure you'll let me know if I am or not. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

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