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Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 4:29am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]If you don't mind, please check out this link. [/b]
I haven't forgotten [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] later.....

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 4:38am
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Oh and btw Momma Bear, in case you were wondering why I wandered into the nurse debate in the first place, I did have a point to make (and failed to), lol.
My point is that, IMO, there should not be a protocol so strict so as to dissuade nurses from working at schools for fear of legal misstep. A standard protocol is [i]easier[/i] for everyone to follow, indeed, but nurses have to think on their feet, too. An example would be - say a child is having an anaphylactic reaction -- textbook anaphylaxis -- and the only available EpiPen is expired. Does the nurse inject and call 911? Or does the nurse refrain from using expired medication (without knowing if it may have worked regardless) and call 911?
I don't expect you to answer that question, btw; it's hypothetical. Just an example of thinking on one's feet but having the best interests of the child and his safety as the bottom line.
My point - can we sometimes protocol ourselves to death, or can we colour outside the lines a bit?
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 4:55am
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]
My point - can we sometimes protocol ourselves to death, or can we colour outside the lines a bit?
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[/b]
You may not have the right box of crayons to color in the manner I speak of. LOL.

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 5:02am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] You may not have the right box of crayons to color in the manner I speak of. LOL.[/b]
I assume you use red, white and blue crayons? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 5:09am
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]
My point is that, IMO, there should not be a protocol so strict so as to dissuade nurses from working at schools for fear of legal misstep. A standard protocol is [i]easier[/i] for everyone to follow, indeed, but nurses have to think on their feet, too.
[/b]
ahem...............
did you miss my post in this thread? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
"My path, although not word for word outlined in every instance, was defined. This definition became clearer through the aid of refined Critical Thinking Skills. The appropriate educational background, in theory, should prepare one to wield such a tool."
Still feeling like my point is missed? How, I am unsure.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
PS. No circles here. I see my goal and am [i]highly motivated[/i]. Lord save ya. From what I am unsure. I still raise an eyebrow to the miserable reception the idea of a full time school nurse draws from some persons. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] I wonder if there is any literature that disproves the effacy of appropriately prepared full time school nurses (and not just in relation to children at risk for anaphylaxis), as I have yet to come across such literature. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Just feeling a bit perplexed on some issues as well as highly motivated in other areas.

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 5:14am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] I assume you use red, white and blue crayons? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
[/b]
I do believe you are confusing my creative bend with the beer I prefer.
HOWZ THAT LINK COMMIN' ERIC?
[i]lol[/i]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 5:16am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] I still raise an eyebrow to the miserable reception the idea of a full time school nurse draws from some persons. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [/b]
Actually, I think we would love to have full time school nurses in schools here in Ontario... but in the current climate that idea is a non-starter. The government does not even have enough money for school supplies/equipment (they are spending all their money buying expensive electricity from the USA & Quebec since we have a hydro shortage here), as schools do bakes sales and charity drives for this type of things (ie: schools supplies, etc).
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 26, 2003).]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 5:17am
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b] An example would be - say a child is having an anaphylactic reaction -- textbook anaphylaxis -- and the only available EpiPen is expired. Does the nurse inject and call 911? Or does the nurse refrain from using expired medication (without knowing if it may have worked regardless) and call 911?
[/b]
Couldn't help but wonder if there was an appropriately prepared full time school nurse with appropriate PPP and SOC in place.....................
[i]would the only available epi-pen be expired[/i]?
Again, no guarantees, just wondering.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 26, 2003).]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 5:21am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Actually, I think we would love to have full time school nurses in schools here in Ontario... but in the current climate that idea is a non-starter. The government does not even have enough money for school supplies/equipment (they are spending all their money buying expensive electricity from the USA & Quebec since we have a hydro shortage here), as schools do bakes sales and charity drives for this type of things (ie: schools supplies, etc).
[/b]
Are you offering an [i]excuse[/i]?

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 5:37am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Are you offering an [i]excuse[/i]?
[/b]
Actually, in the past when I was a child at school (a long time ago in a galaxy far far away) we didn't have school nurses either, so my reasoning for not having school nurses (lack of funds) may not necessarily be the only reason, as in the past when there was more funding available, schools such as mine did not have a nurse either. So I do not know why we do not have school nurses here... all I know is that we do not have them (reason unknown) so any policies and procedures that are put into place in Ontario schools would have to recognize the fact that there is no nurse in the school. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]
I believe that's why Cayley's Mom has stated it may not be possible to have one solution for both Canada and the USA due to the differences between our great countries.
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 26, 2003).]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 5:49am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Couldn't help but wonder if there was an appropriately prepared full time school nurse with appropriate PPP and SOC in place.....................
[i]would the only available epi-pen be expired[/i]?
Again, no guarantees, just wondering.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 26, 2003).][/b]
Human error seems to be [i]the[/i] number one cause of medication dispensation problems, so it [i]could[/i] happen, which is where the Critical Thinking comes into play.
For the record, I do think having nurses in the schools is a good idea - how can it possibly be a bad idea and who exactly said that it was? Wow, someone really said that? There's a difference between "don't have" and "don't want".
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
P.S. See? This is why I don't post much anymore - I have less than stellar stuff to contribute. Obviously, my thoughts on this matter, though new to me, are redundant to others. I apologize for that oversight... glub, glub, glub... disappearing beneath the waves to lurk, perchance to dream...

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 6:01am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b] P.S. See? This is why I don't post much anymore - I have less than stellar stuff to contribute. Obviously, my thoughts on this matter, though new to me, are redundant to others. I apologize for that oversight... glub, glub, glub... disappearing beneath the waves to lurk, perchance to dream...[/b]
Hi Carolyn,
I believe your posts are stellar as they make a lot of sense to me. In fact, your opinions sound very similar to the ideas that I have (and Cynde too). So I do appreciate your contribution (the Canadian perspective). [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I appreciate other opinions as well. It's just that Carolyn seems to express my opinions in better words than me [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
p.s. perchance to dream? hmmmm... Christopher Lambert???
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 26, 2003).]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 6:04am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b] For the record, I do think having nurses in the schools is a good idea - how can it possibly be a bad idea and who exactly said that it was? Wow, someone really said that? There's a difference between "don't have" and "don't want"[/b]
I do not recall anyone saying it was a bad idea.

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 9:00am
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
P.S. See? This is why I don't post much anymore - I have less than stellar stuff to contribute. Obviously, my thoughts on this matter, though new to me, are redundant to others. I apologize for that oversight... glub, glub, glub... disappearing beneath the waves to lurk, perchance to dream...[/B]
Carolyn,
I often feel the same. However, I *personally* dismiss the urge (Possibly related to my highly OC personality and perserverative tendencies). *Personally* speaking, and not intended as advice in any manner or form.........
I *personally* find a bottle of red nailpolish and a new thong helps boost the spirit. Possibly some body glitter. A new tube of lipstick in a brilliant persimmon. Hubby heartily agrees. But that is just me.
"Miserable reception" was not in reference to you. I answered your question the only way I know how. Honestly. Sometimes with humor, due to the necessary place it has found in my family, life, and profession.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 9:05am
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eric............
[i]the link?[/i]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 10:07am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]eric............
the link?
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[/b]
I took a quick read.. there is so much info in there it will take a bit of time to write a proper reply ... just got home.. need to cook dinner ... etc ... I will try to write soon [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 10:17am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] I do not recall anyone saying it was a bad idea.[/b]
maybe a "poll" would be in order?

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 10:24am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
maybe a "poll" would be in order?[/b]
Debate thread? Rudeness thread? Maybe it's time for a poll thread? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 11:38am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Debate thread? Rudeness thread? Maybe it's time for a poll thread? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]
[i]Go for it[/i]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 11:40am
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ps........
[i]link?[/i]

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 12:01am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] but had to mention I do not think the courts in Canada would consider liability to be an issue if the school was [b]taking reasonable precautions[/b].
[/b]
I'm very familiar with the Anaphylaxis Handbook --great document, isn't it? For those of you unfamiliar with it, take the time to read it online (you can also download it for free in .pdf format).
So according to the Handbook, it is "unlikely" schools can be held liable if an allergic mishap occurs, as long as "reasonable precautions" were in place.
Okay, so why are (an increasing number --I'm trying to get the stats soon!) schools removing the term "peanut-free" from school documentation? I agree with AnnaMarie that "a rose by any other name...", but as a technical writer, I know that different terms carry different perceptions and weight in people's minds. A lot of a writer's time is spent agonizing over choosing just the right word or phrase to clearly define a meaning, [i]because not all words/terms are created equal[/i].
What's my point? Not sure. What are these schools afraid of? Maybe just that "peanut-free" is too clear and uncompromising --and subject to liable if "reasonable precautions" aren't in a provable format (documented, regimented PPP/SoC's).
Hmmmm, maybe the schools dropping the "peanut-free" label are the ones without the PPPs? Stands to reason (musing to myself here...)

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 12:27am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

arachide, I would be concerned if dropping the peanut-free name also means dropping the peanut ban. From conversations with other parents I understand that my son's school [b]used[/b] to be called peanut-free. It no longer is. The principal said the name could cause legal problems. [b]However[/b] they still do not allow peanuts or peanut products. As far as safety for the pa chldren, they haven't changed that - just removed the name.
MB, Erik (and possibly me) previously said that you have to know what is possible. Full-time nurses in our schools is [b]not going to happen[/b]. It doesn't matter if we want it or not - we know it will not happen. If a parent chooses to fight that, it means a lot of time and energy is going to waster. Fight for something that is possible. Actually, right now one of the school boards in our city doesn't even have teachers in it. And the other is on work-to-rule.
I'm not sure about the rest of the province, or the rest of the country, but right here there is no money. They have had major cut-backs over the last few years. The average parent is more concerned about having decent teachers who specialize in the subjects they teach - having up to date educational materials.

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 1:23am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]arachide, I would be concerned if dropping the peanut-free name also means dropping the peanut ban. From conversations with other parents I understand that my son's school [b]used[/b] to be called peanut-free. It no longer is. The principal said the name could cause legal problems. [b]However[/b] they still do not allow peanuts or peanut products. As far as safety for the pa chldren, they haven't changed that - just removed the name.
MB, Erik (and possibly me) previously said that you have to know what is possible. Full-time nurses in our schools is [b]not going to happen[/b]. It doesn't matter if we want it or not - we know it will not happen. If a parent chooses to fight that, it means a lot of time and energy is going to waster. Fight for something that is possible. Actually, right now one of the school boards in our city doesn't even have teachers in it. And the other is on work-to-rule.
I'm not sure about the rest of the province, or the rest of the country, but right here there is no money. They have had major cut-backs over the last few years. The average parent is more concerned about having decent teachers who specialize in the subjects they teach - having up to date educational materials.[/b]
#1. And you are OKAAAAAAAAAAAY with this situation? ("You" meaning the population at large "this" meaning the examples you described.)
#2. Is this an accruate depiction of the consequences of [b]"Socialism"?[/b] Does it necessarily leave the population at large with their proverbial hands "tied behind their back"? ie: No recourse to situations that may be deedmed unacceptable, if not morally flawed and ethically reprehensible? Maybe my impression is wrong. Could you clarify, if possible?
Not to say that the Capitalistic Republic I now live in does not have it's issues, but it has been inferred many in its populace have somewhat high expectations and often pursue avenues available to them quite often offering recourse to remedy situations they deem "unacceptable". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 1:29am
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]
My point is that, IMO, there should not be a protocol so strict so as to dissuade nurses from working at schools for fear of legal misstep. A standard protocol is [i]easier[/i] for everyone to follow, indeed, but nurses have to think on their feet, too. An example would be - say a child is having an anaphylactic reaction -- textbook anaphylaxis -- and the only available EpiPen is expired. Does the nurse inject and call 911? Or does the nurse refrain from using expired medication (without knowing if it may have worked regardless) and call 911?
My point - can we sometimes protocol ourselves to death, or can we colour outside the lines a bit?
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[/b]
We need very stict, defined protocols to cover ever possible situation no matter how long those protocols may be (LOL)!!! Welcome back Carolyn. My knee-jerk reaction is to take the opposite position from you and debate until the "cows come home." [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Actually, I agree with you 100% - shocking! As one who is forced to follow protocols every day, sometimes including endless SOP's, they can drain the intelligence from your brain. When a situation is encountered that is not covered in their protocols, some people become lost and do NOTHING rather than think it through and risk being wrong! That's fine if you have time to repeat an experiment but can you imagine if this happened in a life and death situation??
Glad you are still around,
Troy

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 1:38am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]arachide, I would be concerned if dropping the peanut-free name also means dropping the peanut ban.[/b]
In my particular case, dropping the term "peanut-free" is the same as dropping the "ban" on peanuts because there are no school-specific PPP's in place. The only thing that made parents conscious of the fact they couldn't send in peanut-products was the "peanut-free" clause in the school agenda (which is being dropped).
Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:[b]
The principal said the name could cause legal problems.[/b]
See?
Quote:[b][b]However[/b] they still do not allow peanuts or peanut products. As far as safety for the pa chldren, they haven't changed that[/b]
How are they doing this? Letters to parents?
Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:[b]
The average parent is more concerned about having decent teachers who specialize in the subjects they teach - having up to date educational materials.[/b]
Amen...

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 1:56am
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arachide,
reading your post, I hear the words..........
"Document, Document, Document."
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 2:14am
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Quote:Originally posted by choguy:
[b]
As one who is forced to follow protocols every day, sometimes including endless SOP's, they can drain the intelligence from your brain. When a situation is encountered that is not covered in their protocols, some people become lost and do NOTHING rather than think it through and risk being wrong! That's fine if you have time to repeat an experiment but can you imagine if this happened in a life and death situation??
[/b]
(Song going through my head):
"Stand Up! Have you ever been there? Stand Up! and testify. I say, Stand Up!, if you've ever been there. Stand Up! Identify!"
~Mel McDaniel country song.
Hmmmmmmmmm. Much of my "knee jerk" reaction is the result of years of experience largely based on PPP and SOC and [i] the appropriate educational background [/i]. LOL. Quite possibly, such PPP and SOC offers me untold experience and the [i]exponential benefit[/i] of "Multidiciplinary Collaberation". Quite possibly [b] accurate, timely, and definitive response[/b] might be impossible without such.
I would not expect one to rely soley on "common sense"? As such is left largely open for interpretation and based on individual experience and limited to the educational background and knowledge that individual person may or may not posess.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 2:23am
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Quote:Originally posted by choguy:
[b] When a situation is encountered that is not covered in their protocols, some people become lost and do NOTHING rather than think it through and risk being wrong! [/b]
Are you referring to [b]Critical Thinking Skills[/b]?
Are you trying to say that irregardless of the end result, in some cases, what may determine "right" action vs. "wrong" action is
[i]Rationale[/i]?
Would you say we are in the same ballpark?
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.
edit to as "is". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 27, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 2:33am
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Choguy! Great to see your name around again. See? We do have common ground. I would love to debate you but since we agree this time, I'll take a raincheck, lol! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
MommaBear - you da bomb, you know that, right? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] We could all take comportment lessons from you on how to rise above nasty trolling. *clap clap* Well done - in this threads and others! What kind of moisturizer do you use to keep your thick skin so soft? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Now, back to the issue - no I wouldn't want to rely on common sense [i]alone[/i] anymore than I'd want to rely on protocol alone. Humans are learning and adapting in any situation they're thrown into. What I'm after is the happy medium between strict protocol and leeway/common sense. A school is not a hospital and a school nurse is not an automaton.
Hey!! How do you keep doing that?? Do you have some kind of super powerful Hoover because you keep sucking me back into the nurse discussion... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Glub, glub, glub... sinking back under the waves to contemplate socialism, the lack of funding for Canadian nurses (in hospitals, never mind schools!) and the meaning of life... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Carolyn

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 3:12am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
#1. And you are OKAAAAAAAAAAAY with this situation? ("You" meaning the population at large "this" meaning the examples you described.)
#2. Is this an accruate depiction of the consequences of [b]"Socialism"?[/b] Does it necessarily leave the population at large with their proverbial hands "tied behind their back"? ie: No recourse to situations that may be deedmed unacceptable, if not morally flawed and ethically reprehensible? Maybe my impression is wrong. Could you clarify, if possible?
Not to say that the Capitalistic Republic I now live in does not have it's issues, but it has been inferred many in its populace have somewhat high expectations and often pursue avenues available to them quite often offering recourse to remedy situations they deem "unacceptable". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.[/b]
#1 Do you mean are we OK with the lack of nurses in schools? Or the fact that teachers are either locked out or striking on a regular basis?
I'll try to answer - but keep in mind these are my own personal opinions and observations. I'm definitely not OK with the teacher's not being in schools. Currently it is the Catholic School Board that is locked out, and the Public is on work to rule. It's all about money and politics and this has been going on for quite a while. I am not a politically active person (usually) but I have gotten involved a few times regarding this situation. I tend to go to my own child's teacher or principal rather than *fighting the big fight*. I've been dealing with this for way to many years, and unfortunately, my personal opinion has become - get my child educated.
If you mean are we OK with no nurses in the school - again speaking for myself - I am OK with it. I *personally* am comfortable with a teacher who has some knowledge about my child's particular problem - I can speak with her whenever I feel it's necessary - and a school staff that takes precautions and is open to discussions, understands the situation, etc., and yes, has protocols in place. Would a nurse be better? Maybe. Sorry, MB, but I'd need particulars. I did read a description (by you) of what qualifications you would want a school nurse to have - and that would be a great nurse to have. Unfortunately, our school board cannot afford those qualifications for every school. And even with all those qualifications I would want to sit down and discuss with her my particular child. Only then would I decide if she was an improvement or not.
#2 Did I say we just sit back? We're Canadian. We just fight back quietly.

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 3:26am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

arachide, The first day of school a bundle of papers came home. At least two mentioned that peanuts and peanut products are not allowed in the school, or school yard.
Each month a news letter comes home and there is a paragraph reminding that peanuts/products are not allowed.
A specific letter just about no peanuts/products was sent shortly before:
halloween
christmas
valentines
easter
The notices also remind people that if they send in birthday treats etc., peanuts/products are not allowed. They also state not to send in foods cooked in peanut oil.
*****************
The school does not ban *may contains*. The principal is aware that no notice means nothing. They do stress the child needs to be taught about their own allergy - food brought in to the school is not safe unless the child brought it him/herself.
Some parents that I spoke with were quite upset because they couldn't figure out what *may contain* and they were trying to not send in *may contains*. As soon as they understood what the school was doing (i.e. reducing the risk of contact/air born reactions, but teaching the child not to eat unknown foods) they all seem to be quite willing to co-operate. Actually, they were trying to co-operate even before but getting very frustrated.
This school has a very low ESL population, and quite often one parent can translate for another. I'm sure this helps it work as well.

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 3:32am
arachide's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]arachide,
reading your post, I hear the words..........
"Document, Document, Document."
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img][/b]
I equate paper cuts with war wounds...

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 3:36am
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Choguy! Great to see your name around again. See? We do have common ground. I would love to debate you but since we agree this time, I'll take a raincheck, lol! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]
{{{{{{{{GROUP HUG!!!!!!!}}}}}}}} (Although I rarely use that terminology around here, when I do, I mean it. Literally.)
Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]MommaBear - you da bomb, you know that, right? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] We could all take comportment lessons from you on how to rise above nasty trolling. *clap clap* Well done - in this threads and others! What kind of moisturizer do you use to keep your thick skin so soft? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img][/b]
It comes in a bottle. LOL. JUUUUUUUUUUST-KID-DIIIIIIIING.
Re: "nasty trolling".......Maybe it's the hot stove theory. Maybe it's just me.
Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Now, back to the issue - no I wouldn't want to rely on common sense [i]alone[/i] anymore than I'd want to rely on protocol alone. Humans are learning and adapting in any situation they're thrown into. What I'm after is the happy medium between strict protocol and leeway/common sense.[/b]
Is there one? To find out, might we have to take social "politics" out of it? Is this possible? Or more appropriately, do those involved want to? As I *personally* have found my path uncluttered without the same and do not see the role such plays in ethical considerations. Hope My Point is comming across loud and clear.
Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]A school is not a hospital and a school nurse is not an automaton.[/b]
I agree. But, is there [b]some[/b] value we can glean from these examples?
Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Hey!! How do you keep doing that?? Do you have some kind of super powerful Hoover because you keep sucking me back into the nurse discussion... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img][/b]
[b]WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP-FWUMP![/b]
[i]you were saying[/i]? (Is it any wonder hubby married me?)
You asked: "How do you keep doing that??" (Note the reference to "Socialism"). [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] (Who says *I* can't "Learn and Adapt"?) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Maybe it's just an issue of seeing [i]true[/i] value in such modification.
Personally, I think you are valuable. Truly.
Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Glub, glub, glub... sinking back under the waves to contemplate socialism, the lack of funding for Canadian nurses (in hospitals, never mind schools!) and the meaning of life... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img][/b]
[i]Get back to me on that "Socialism Thing". OK? I got the "Life Thing" figured out. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
BTW, Howz the water? As I often contemplate jumping in, If only briefly.
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 10:14am
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]eric............
[i]the link?[/i]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
[/b]
reraising.

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 2:41pm
ajas_folks's picture
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Joined: 04/28/2000 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b] Glub, glub, glub... sinking back under the waves to contemplate the lack of funding for Canadian nurses (in hospitals, never mind schools!) [/b]
Honest question here -- how is it that in Canada the gov't cannot afford nurses in all schools? You Canadians pay a bu++load of taxes!!
Sorry to head into deep-space-off-topic with this question.
EB
(Edited becuz I just felt like it.)
[This message has been edited by ajas_folks (edited May 28, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 11:33pm
anonymous's picture
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Hey ajas-folks, long time no see! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] You'll have to bear with me - sorry there is no short answer to your question.
I am only answering for Ontario - my fellow Canadians, please feel free to jump in with thoughts, corrections, etc.
Although we pay a b*ttload of taxes (man oh man, do we EVER!) it's distributed differently to our services due to our system which places more emphasis on social-based things, like health care and education. Another example of different distribution - we have only a handful of toll roads in our nation, so taxes go to maintain our highways. Also, we pay provincial AND federal taxes, but in Ontario, our federal leaders are Liberal (lean to the left) while our provincial leaders are Progressive Conservative (lean to the right). Conflicts abound.
Our teachers make more money than your teachers, and they have a golden pension plan, as well as a golden health care plan. That costs big bucks, but since education (to me) is at least as important as health care, it's tax money well spent (Conservatives feel free to jump all over me here. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]). Teachers' unions are very powerful and you can believe that if there is a moment where teachers' salaries will be cut to make room for school nurses, they'll fight it and they'll win.
Teacher's unions came to power a long time ago and their power is entrenched. Our current provincial government is hostile to unions and there have been a number of teacher strikes in recent years - currently in Toronto, the Catholic school teachers are locked out and the Public school teacher are under a Work to Rule campaign (no extracurricular activities). Our current government, for some inexplicable reason, is also very hostile to doctors and nurses, but nurses especially. Many of our best nurses head south of the border (my cousin is one who loves her Arizona job) for better pay, better hours and more respect.
Also, although we are more socialist-based than the US, our provincial government, which has been in power since 1993 or 1994, is NOT socialist. The Progressive Conservatives, or PCs, are very much like the Republicans. Tax cuts are on the agenda (gutting the health and education programs as much as possible to remain friendly to big business). Our education system in Ontario was so ravaged by this government's agenda that students were forced to share textbooks; Education Aides were cut out of the salary equation (instead one EA per classroom, you'd be lucky to get 1/4 of an EA's time twice a week, for example, if you had a child with special needs in the classroom); a new curriculum was introduced which was welcomed by most everyone to keep Canadian students competitive on an international level, but staff was cut by hundreds so the new, more difficult curriculum was hard to teach and students failed by the hundreds.
I think you can see where I'm going with this - that students do not come first in our education system, under this provincial government. Physical education programs were threatened - health is not a priority for students in our schools. Many older schools are infested with mold causing scores of teacher sick days and unexplained illness among students. Put all this together and you see where the health nurse, being paid to staff her own office, is long gone and perhaps will never return to our system. The nurse is too far down the fiscal totem pole, so to speak.
Strange things happen when a corporation-friendly government gets its hands on a socialist system.... It definitely sends a conflicting message about our nation's priorities to the world, doesn't it?
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by Cayley's Mom (edited May 28, 2003).]

Posted on: Tue, 05/27/2003 - 11:46pm
erik's picture
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Hi Carolyn,
Thanks - I knew your answer would be better than any attempt I might make.
Another point I would add is that we have universal health care paid for out of our taxes. Everyone (from the richest to the poorest) has health insurance coverage.
In the USA, I believe there are 40 million Americans with no health coverage at all.

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 12:03am
anonymous's picture
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Joined: 05/28/2009 - 16:42

Thanks for adding that Erik - it's funny the assumptions we make about what other countries know about us. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
As for the 40 million Americans not covered, they are probably mostly middle-income earners. From discussions with American friends, I realize that the rich and the poor have health coverage (Medicaid for the poor and you have to be really poor to qualify) but with the middle class it's hit and miss. If their employer has a good health care system they can pay, but if not, they have to pay privately which is expensive.
Comparitively, my husband is a business owner, so we don't have a "health plan" per se, where our dental and prescriptions are paid for. We looked into buying insurance (because it also covers long-term disability, etc.) and it was SOOOOO expensive. Something like $200 per month, which covers 80% of dental bills and 80% of prescription fees. I figure we spend about $600 per year for a family of 5 at the dentist and about $300, including EpiPens, on prescriptions. So why would we purchase this plan - it seems to make no sense until I factored the long and short-term disability into it. If my husband was in an accident, we'd still have an income (I'm a stay-at-home-parent). I think many Americans don't purchase health coverage because they are comfortable with risk-taking and to each his own - many Canadians in my position don't buy long-term disability insurance either. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Carolyn

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 12:34am
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Momma Bear wants me to read her link so here goes. I have no children in the school system and don't know much about this so my points may not make any sense but Momma Bear has been waiting for days so I thought I better write something [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Quote:Link posted by MommaBear:
Q: I am a school nurse in a Texas school. Recently I have received physician orders for a student via email. I am used to receiving these in writing with the physician's signature. Is a physician order in the form of an email considered to be a valid doctor's order? Can I accept this email or is additional verification needed?
Q: Can the school nurse accept prescription medications from out of state?
In Ontario, physician orders for students would go to the parents rather than the school. As there are no school nurses in Ontario, I believe either the teacher would give out the medication or the child (if old enough) would take the medication himself. It would be preferable to have a school nurse in this situation as she is more qualified to handle this.
Quote:Q: What should a school nurse do if a student arrives at school with no doctor's orders and the parent requests services?
Q: HELP! What should a school nurse do if the health needs of one child do not allow the school nurse to carry out all other job responsibilities?
Once again, since we have no school nurses this situation would not occur. The parent would need to take the child out of school to a medical clinic in order to receive medical services. Many of the points in this document involve a school nurse. These points do demonstrate the important role that is played by a school nurse. However, it is difficult for me to have a reply to these questions as we do not have school nurses.
Quote:Q: What should the school nurse do regarding preparing medications for field trips?
It would be helpful to have a nurse to ensure safety precautions are taken into effect on a field trip. The nurse can ensure that nothing is missed out. What is a reaction occurs on the school trip, but the teacher who is carrying the epi-pen is not in the general vicinity? The nurse can ensure the proper policies and procedures are in place for the field trip to ensure the child's safety. However, I do believe a child can be safe on a field trip even without a school nurse, but that it may take more time and effort to establish safety protocols to be followed and the risk is that without a school nurse, these safety protocols may not be created or followed and this could increase the risk.
Quote:Q: What is the status of the Hepatitis A requirement for students in Texas schools? I've heard that the original list of counties is being expanded. How will I know if I need to require Hep A for the students in my district?
Ontario law also requires students to be immunized against various illnesses (ie: hepatitis, polio, tetanus, rubella, etc). In Ontario, you are required to provide proof of immunization (there are exceptions to this vaccination requirement). I believe most children are immunized in a medical clinic/doctor's office rather than by a school nurse.
Q: What if this student is involved in an emergency?
As we have no school nurses, I believe most schools would call 911 immediately in a medical emergency. The designated person (ie: principal, teacher, or student themselves) would administer medication/epi-pen. There should be a plan in place to ensure everyone knows what procedures to follow.
Of course, it would be preferable to have a school nurse on site, as they would have more knowledge and experience involving these issues, epi-pen/medication, etc. and they could ensure written plans are in place. I think the following answer emphasizes the important role that a school nurse plays:
[b]Generally speaking, the administration of epi-pens is a procedure that can be carried out by adequately trained school personnel, or even self-administered by the student, as long as this has been agreed upon and planned by the parents, physician, chief administrator, and nurse.
For this reason, the chief administrators, working with the nurse, should create procedures for how emergent situations are handled when the nurse is not present. The nurse plays a key role here in facilitating communication between the administrator and the staff so that all personnel are adequately trained and aware of the expectations of them in cases of emergency.
Under these circumstances, it becomes the responsibility of the nurse to work with the chief administrator to develop an emergency plan so that the staff designated to administer the medication are appropriately trained and prepared to handle the scenarios that may result. The nurse must verify staff competency in carrying out the procedure, assure patient safety, and inform the chief administrator if the task needs to be assigned to some one else [/b]
But it is unfortunate that we will not have school nurses here in Ontario as this will not happen. So we must work with what we have in order to create a safe environment for our children in the schools.
By the way, our former Premier Mike Harris (leader of the province of Ontario) stated that nurses were as obsolete as the [b]hula hoop[/b]. So maybe that gives you an idea as to the odds of us having school nurses in the future.
But thanks for posting that link Momma Bear. I can see the value of the school nurse and the many ways that she keeps the children safe and it is great that you do have school nurses as it must provide added re-assurance to parents.

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 12:53am
MommaBear's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

An interesting link:
[url="http://www.uhcan.org/files/analysis/kassirer.html"]http://www.uhcan.org/files/analysis/kassirer.html[/url]
Eric,
With regards to [b]"ability to pay"[/b],........
[url="http://www.erlanger.org/compliance/cobra_emtala.asp"]http://www.erlanger.org/compliance/cobra_emtala.asp[/url]
(Scroll down and note:
"Part I

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 12:59am
MommaBear's picture
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Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Eric,
You posted:
"By the way, our former Premier Mike Harris (leader of the province of Ontario) stated that nurses were as obsolete as the hula hoop. So maybe that gives you an idea as to the odds of us having school nurses in the future."
[b] Have you noticed the hula hoop is back in style???[/b]
At least in the US stores I frequent.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 1:01am
choguy's picture
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Joined: 02/20/2003 - 09:00

Okay Cayley's Mom, are you trying to suck me into a debate here?!!!! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I will resist the urge for now due to my heavy work schedule. I can't speak for all conservative-type people, but some of us are happy to pay for good education, healthcare, and some sort of social safety-net. I think the difference lies in the method to achieve these ends. We're not uncaring, inhumane people (at least I'm not).
Troy
...so much more to say, but so little time! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 1:02am
MommaBear's picture
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Carolyn,
Can you clarify for me, please:
Does the Canadian goverment fund, support, sanction "The Catholic School Board"???
As its reference in many instances leaves me perplexed.
MommaBear (?)

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 1:08am
Gail W's picture
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Joined: 12/06/2001 - 09:00

This link might help arachide (tho US specific) and is interesting:
[b]Drafting and Revising School Policies[/b]
[url="http://schoolhealth.org/trnthtrn/section3/sect3a.html"]http://schoolhealth.org/trnthtrn/section3/sect3a.html[/url]
It points to authorities and "enforcers".
Gail

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 1:10am
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Carolyn,
Can you clarify for me, please:
Does the Canadian goverment fund, support, sanction "The Catholic School Board"???
As its reference in many instances leaves me perplexed.
[/b]
When Canada was created, it was a confederation of a predominantly English, Protestant colony called Upper Canada (Ontario) with a predominantly French, Catholic colony called Lower Canada (Quebec).
In Ontario, it was agreed to fund both Catholic and Protestant schools. It is a constitutional requirement which is why we have two publicly funded and equal school systems in Ontario since Confederaton (1867) or earlier.
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 28, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 1:15am
MommaBear's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] When Canada was created, it was a confederation of a predominantly English, Protestant colony called Upper Canada (Ontario) with a predominantly French, Catholic colony called Lower Canada (Quebec).
In Ontario, it was agreed to fund both Catholic and Protestant schools. It is a constitutional requirement which is why we have two publicly funded and equal school systems in Ontario since Confederaton (1867) or earlier.
[/b]
waiiiiiiiitaminute.........
R U telling me that in Ontario Public School is equivocable to "Protestant"???? and Private School is equivocable to "Catholic"????
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 28, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 1:17am
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] waiiiiiiiitaminute.........
R U telling me that in Ontario Public is equivocable to "Protestant"???? and Catholic is equivocable to "Catholic"????
[/b]
The Catholic schools are still Catholic. However, the Protestant schools are now "public schools" and there is no religious instruction of any type that takes place in them.

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 1:19am
erik's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] #1. And you are OKAAAAAAAAAAAY with this situation? ("You" meaning the population at large "this" meaning the examples you described.)[/b]
We do not like the fact that our children sell chocolate bars and do fund raisers in order to raise money for their schools, but there's only so much money available. We don't like the strikes, lock-outs, work-to-rule, etc but the current government is hostle towards teachers and nurses so maybe things will improve after the next election (the current government is trailing badly in the polls). So I guess the population at large is not happy with the current Conservative government.
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]#2. Is this an accruate depiction of the consequences of Socialism"? Does it necessarily leave the population at large with their proverbial hands "tied behind their back"? ie: No recourse to situations that may be deedmed unacceptable, if not morally flawed and ethically reprehensible? Maybe my impression is wrong. Could you clarify, if possible?[/b]
I do not think a teacher's strike, selling chocolate bars to raise funds for schools, a lack of a school nurse, etc are morally flawed or ethically reprehensible issues. You may be criticizing our "socialist state" but throwing around terms such as morally flawed or ethically reprehensible issues? hmmmmmmmm.. speaking of ethics and morals, your Capitalist Republic had Enron... WorldCom... Tyco... Martha Stewart.... Your capitalist free-for-all could use a bit of Canadian moderation in my opinion [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Not to say that the Capitalistic Republic I now live in does not have it's issues, but it has been inferred many in its populace have somewhat high expectations and often pursue avenues available to them quite often offering recourse to remedy situations they deem "unacceptable". [/b]
Remedy situations deemed "unacceptable"?
Canada abolished capital punishment over 30 years ago. However, hundreds of poor, predominiantly minority (some teenagers and some mentally deficient) are executed each year in the USA (some without a decent lawyer or adequate defense, and some whose guilt was in doubt).
Canada gives gays and lesbians equality. In the USA, it is still illegal in many southern states for homosexual relations to occur. On CNN last week, there was an article about a school that banned all school clubs (drama club, bands, etc) just so they would have a way to ban the gay & lesbian students association.
[b] [url="http://www.courier-journal.com/localnews/2003/01/23/ke012303s354112.htm"]http://www.courier-journal.com/localnews/2003/01/23/ke012303s354112.htm[/url] [/b]
Canada gives defendants the right to a speedy trial. In Guantanamo Bay, there are many prisoners from Afghanistan (some just teenagers) who have been held for two years with no charges, no trials, no phone calls, no lawyers (what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty, the right to a lawyer, etc). How many years will this go on?
So my response to "many in its populace (USA) have somewhat high expectations and often pursue avenues available to them quite often offering recourse to remedy situations they deem "unacceptable", I would say that it is true of Americans as well as for Canadians that "unacceptable" conditions are sometimes accepted.
So I don't think we can say that Americans fight to remedy unacceptable situations while Canadians just sit back and accept them.
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 28, 2003).]

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 1:20am
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Eric, Premier Mike Harris?????
Try Ernie Eeves. (sp?) You are so [i]last year[/i]
I recently contacted my son's school about sending in an epi-pen.
Forms need to be filled in [b]by a doctor[/b]. These same forms would be required if there was a nurse.
Property taxes go towards the education. You have the choice of supporting the public or catholic school board.
If a school has a nurse and also has 2 special needs children (lets just use anaphylactic as both examples) and 1 of those students is going on a field trip, does the nurse go or stay? If the nurse is the only one in the school who can administer epi, what should be done? At my son's school there are multiple people trained. My son's teacher is about to be.

Posted on: Wed, 05/28/2003 - 1:22am
anonymous's picture
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Joined: 05/28/2009 - 16:42

Hi MommaBear - yes, the Catholic school is publicly funded by Ontario taxpayers who can choose whether to support the public school board or the Catholic school board in their area. You simply tick off either or both on your tax form (at least, you had this "tick" option 10 years ago). But YES it's publicly funded.
This brings up a PLETHORA of conflicts, as you can well imagine.
Last year a gay Catholic student in Toronto wanted to bring his boyfriend to the prom. Homosexuality is contrary to Catholic teachings, but discrimination on the basis of sexual preference is illegal - and the Catholic school gets public funding so it can't very well supercede the discrimination clause right? Just one example of conflict...
Choguy - I really didn't mean to make it sound like I think Conservatives are evil. My husband leans to the right (he's a business owner, right?) and I respect the differences in our views. I will try not to offend or make blanket observations in the future. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
But you must realize that anyone leaning to the left in Canada despises the Conservative leaders (like Ralph Klein in Alberta, former PM Brian Mulroney and former Premier of Ontario Mike Harris) who [i]relish[/i] slashing funding to critical institutions and calling it "common sense". Mike Harris once noted that welfare cuts won't hurt anyone because all it means is that the pregnant women who collect them will have to give up their beer and smokes. I mean, it's colouring my views here, LOL! I like my Conservatives to at least acknowledge other viewpoints respectfully (as you do so well!). Kind of like the difference between Republican and Neo-Conservative Republican in your country? One is tolerable to the left - the other simply is not. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

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If you avoid peanuts, it’s likely you know the joy of cashews. Slightly sweet and smooth in texture, cashews provide not only relief to those with...

The prevalence of food allergy has dramatically increased over the past two to three decades, and not just among children. Preliminary results...

When someone in the family is diagnosed with a food allergy, a choice must be made whether to ban the problem food or foods from the home. The...

Looking for a fun way to share what you know about your own food allergies? Or are you hoping to educate the people around you in a fun way about...

According to the results of a new study, children lacking Vitamin D may be more susceptible to food allergies. Researchers working at the Albert...

If you or your child has a peanut or nut allergy, identifying the presence of nuts in food becomes a priority, but what if the written or spoken...

Soap allergies can cause a lot of discomfort and itching. If you suddenly develop a rash or bumps on your skin, you may suspect that you have an...