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Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 1:59am
erik's picture
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Eric, In no way am I [i]offended[/i]. Just a tad bit [i]disheartend[/i].
[/b]
Hi Momma Bear,
I am very glad to hear it. I would not want to offend you or anyone at this site, and if my talk about waffles was a pain, just tell me and I'll stop. My warped sense of humour may be different from your warped sense of humour, but I'll never know until you tell me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Maybe you are dis-heartened because I don't understand all of your questions, but I really am trying. But I think you would agree your posts aren't always crystal clear and concise [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] And really.. it was Anna Marie who started that crown talk... so blame her!! (haha.. my chance to finally pick on her) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Also, thanks for your post Maggie [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 2:04am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] I think what MommaBear is asking is, if food manufacturers can follow this criteria, why can't the schools?
[/b]
The manufacturers are in the business of manufacturing food so they control all the steps in this process making peanut-free a possible option.
Schools are in the business of teaching. They do not manufacture the food eaten by the students as it comes form multiple sources (each student's lunch could contain products from 5 , 6, 7 or more manufacturers.)
So it makes it much easier for a food manufacturer to become peanut-free since they have total control over the manufacturing process, compared to a school who has very little if any control over the manufacturing process.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 2:08am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Have you ever thought about entering the teaching profession, Gail?
Oh, wait, you did. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b]
LOL! I really appreciated that one. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
My husband called me his "secret weapon" when we were working with the school because I was relentless in my pursuit. And there was an enormous need for a "translator" that I was destined to fulfill.
(Of course, my dh was also a powerful "secret weapon" ... due to his MD.)

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 2:12am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
people still smoke.
Around others.
Around minors.
Around infants.
[i]SIMPLY AMAAAAAAAAAAZING[/i]. Sigh.
It is interesting to note the difference between "Smoke-Free" and "Tobbacco-Free". Would one be more easily defineable, thus possibly more realistically achievable, and ultimately more easily enforced?[/b]
I often note the teachers at our school who go out to the side schoolyard for a quick smoke at break times...
Hey MB!!! I made my 3 guesses! So c'mon already! What the heck does "wthddimatphs" mean?!

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 2:34am
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b] Gads, that'd be terrific! I'll enquire about this, but won't hold my breath. Maybe here is where Anaphylaxis Canada may be able to refer me to someone.
[/b]
That's a good possibility. I'd ask if your district has used a physician-consultant in the past... and/or if they have one in place currently. I was surprised to learn that our district has attorney and physician consultants [i]on retainer [/i]. This is not common knowledge, however, and I found out through unusual channels. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
Just a thought...

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 2:53am
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Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] I was surprised to learn that our district has attorney and physician consultants [i]on retainer [/i]. This is not common knowledge, however, and I found out through unusual channels. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img][/b]
Kewl... [i]insider info[/i]

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 2:58am
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Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] I have never told someone where to post. Or set up a "crown" to be claimed.
[/b]
This is true. However, you did enjoy the crown. Enough to double my post in debate:
[quote]Originally posted by AnnaMarie: then doubled by MommaBear;[b]
I thought you were enjoying this too. I don't agree with all your points, but I hand you the crown.
[/b][quote]
All joking aside - you [b]are[/b] better at this than me.
And, about those waffles....[i]I think I have waffle envy[/i]

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 2:58am
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] The manufacturers are in the business of manufacturing food so they control all the steps in this process making peanut-free a possible option.
Schools are in the business of teaching. They do not manufacture the food eaten by the students as it comes form multiple sources (each student's lunch could contain products from 5 , 6, 7 or more manufacturers.)
So it makes it much easier for a food manufacturer to become peanut-free since they have total control over the manufacturing process, compared to a school who has very little if any control over the manufacturing process.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[/b]
Feed the kids KNOWLEDGE!!!
(alas let's not overlook the bake sales, candy drives, cookie dough sales, class party treats.... all conducted at school, during school hours, with the APPROVAL of the schools...
...who SHOULD be in the business of TEACHING...)

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 3:01am
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Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b]the bake sales, candy drives, cookie dough sales, class party treats.... all conducted at school, during school hours, with the APPROVAL of the schools...
[/b]
Yes, that's a good point.. another reason why it is much more difficult to attempt to keep peanuts out of schools than it is for a manufacturer to keep peanuts out of their products. As Becca says, schools are too food-centric.

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 3:08am
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Why the hell do dogs imitate monkeys and take peanuts home...sh*t

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 3:09am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] And, about those waffles....[i]I think I have waffle envy[/i][/b]
I never imagined that waffles would be such a controversial topic. Personally, I love eating them coated in maple syrup (I don't really coat them with merlot - that was another joke) and couldn't imagine anyone not liking waffles.. haha Anyway, I will refrain from questioning anyone about their food preferences for now, but will proudly state that I love waffles with Canadian maple syrup (peanut-free of course!) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 3:09am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b]Why the hell do dogs imitate monkeys and take peanuts home...sh*t[/b]
Hun?????

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 3:11am
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Anonymous (not verified)

Now, is that a great way to start a new page or what? ROFL

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 3:14am
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Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b][i]wthddimatphs[/i]?
[/b]
[This message has been edited by AnnaMarie (edited May 23, 2003).]

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 3:17am
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Erik, just a warning for those in Ontario about maple syrup:
HEALTH HAZARD ALERT - GEORGE LAMING / JERSEY
OAKES FARM MAPLE SYRUP MAY BE CONTAMINATED
WITH LEAD
OTTAWA, May 22, 2003 - The Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA)
and George Laming are warning the public not to consume George Laming
/ Jersey Oakes Farm Maple Syrup as it may be contaminated with lead.
The affected maple syrup is packaged in various types and sizes of
containers including 500 mL, 1 L, 2 L and 4 L bearing one of the following
identification stickers:
George Laming OR Jersey Oakes
Farm
RR1 Delta, Ont RR#1 Delta
Ont
The above identification stickers also include a phone number and may
include an e-mail address.
The manufacturer is voluntarily recalling the affected product from the
marketplace. This maple syrup is known to have been sold locally from the
George Laming / Jersey Oakes Farm retail outlet located in Delta, Ontario,
during the months of April and May 2003.
The affected product was found to contain high levels of lead. Continued
exposure to high levels of lead can cause damage to the central nervous
system, kidneys, and blood. Children are particularly at risk.

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 3:24am
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Thanks for the warning Arachide [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 3:56am
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i got it....
"with thong hanging droopily down in my ass, the people, horrified, scream"
(personally though i really, really liked the one about the dogs and the peanuts. that was good.)

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 4:25am
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Speaking of dogs and peanuts, my friend nearly lost her dog because someone was feeding the squirrels nuts. The squirrels dropped the nuts in her yard and her dog ate them. Walnuts are apparently poisonous to dogs and he spent a week in doggie ICU.
Now to return you to your regularly scheduled debate......

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 4:27am
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And waffles? My son lives on Eggo frozen waffles. Always has. No syrup, just as is. Tell me they are unsafe?
Peg

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 4:32am
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Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by Peg541:
[b]And waffles? My son lives on Eggo frozen waffles. Always has. No syrup, just as is. Tell me they are unsafe?
Peg[/b]
In Canada Kellogg's Eggo would definitely be safe (unless there is a peanut warning, but I don't think there is).
My problem with waffles is sesame seeds. There are probably safe ones, but I just can't be bothered hunting them down. But, Peg, they are probably *peanut free*.

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 5:39am
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Quote:Originally posted by AnnaMarie:
[b] My problem with waffles is sesame seeds. There are probably safe ones, but I just can't be bothered hunting them down. But, Peg, they are probably *peanut free*.[/b]
It's true... I have never had any problem finding "peanut safe" waffles in Canada. I have eaten both Kelloggs and Dempsters. I also like to go to the Marche at BCE Place and eat the freshly baked waffles - even the chocolate syrup there is safe (Neilson) but I have to skip the unsafe ice cream (Movenpick).

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 5:54am
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DOH! (slapping myself hard against the forehead!!!)
Joeybeth made me catch on as to what AnnaMarie meant.
God, I'm getting slowwwwwwww...
(nice one about the thongs [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] )

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 6:34am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Neither have I accused anyone of harboring "hostility" towards inanimate objects [/b]
Hi Momma Bear,
Just to confirm once again, I do not think you harbour hostile thoughts towards frozen waffles. I apologize if you took my comments to hint at an inner hostility towards this food item. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Actually, since I read your words this morning I can't get them out of my mind. I have an image of someone with tangerine nail polish sipping on a glass of merlot and staring at a plate of fresh waffles with this sparkling glint in her eye, laughing loudly as she picks up a kitchen knife and proclaims "You bug me once more, and you'll be toast!!!" [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
Yes, I am weird.

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 10:12am
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"wthddimatphs"?...........................
[i]what the hell difference does it make/matter** at this point hypothetically speaking[/i]?
**(I would have given credit for either word)
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]
PS..... [b]ARE YOU THROUGH?????[/b] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] I thought I'd let ya "mix" a little. [i]Very creepy.[/i] (shudder)
Must be an NT thing. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 10:29am
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Quote:Originally posted by joeybeth:
[b]
"with thong hanging droopily down in my ass, the people, horrified, scream"
[/b]
Waving back at Joeybeth. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[b]BOOGABOOGABOOGABOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!![/b]

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 11:47am
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]BOOGABOOGABOOGABOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
[/b]
BOOGABOOGABOOGABOOOOOOOOOO to you too!!!!!!!
p.s. what is BOOGABOOGABOOGABOOOOOOOOOO? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] An American term perhaps?

Posted on: Fri, 05/23/2003 - 11:55am
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Quote:Originally posted by Nick:
[b]Erik : let me tell ya (further to your comment near the top of page 3)- you're darned right about the nut & sesame allergy!! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img][/b]
Hi Nick,
Yes... I believe you, Anna Marie, etc have a much harder time managing your allergies. For me, PA is not too bad, as I can still buy many products and eat at many restaurants. So next time those of us with only PA start to think we have a bad deal, thinking about what you and Anna Marie go through will help us to realize that things aren't that bad.
[edited to fix spelling as Nick does not like bad spelling] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not an English major.
[This message has been edited by erik (edited May 23, 2003).]

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 2:39am
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Laird tundering jaysus this is a long tread!! (Nice one, huh, Anne Marie? LOL! Aren't you from "the Rock"? Hee hee)
Anyway, this is quite a nice dialogue you guys have humming along, even if it is a bit circular. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] Has anything been resolved? I'm sure with arachide "furiously taking notes" we'll see a summary of the debate very soon!
My input on the "there are no guarantees with a peanut-free labelled school" would be this:
Can you guarantee no harm will come to your child at school in other ways besides peanuts? No, but you [i]assume[/i] they will be safe. Othewise, there would be no getting through the day, would there? Like the quote "Having a child is like accepting the fact that your heart will forever walk around outside your body".
What about the little girl who was killed when a large boulder rolled onto the playground during recess? This happened at a school in our area about 5 years ago - who could have foreseen it? No legal action was taken, it was an accident.
What about the 7-year old boy who was almost crushed by a grand piano he was "helping" to move off the school stage? He was rushed to a hospital in our area with head injuries and thankfully made a full recovery. Is this something we can anticipate happening to our children when we kiss them goodbye in the morning?
My point is - asking parents to not send peanut products to school makes it safer for our kids, but just as with the above cautionary tales (and I'm sure you all have your own school district tragedies to relate) it is not a guarantee of safety - and most people [i]know[/i] it is not a guarantee and can accept this.
Asthma attack from chalk dust? It's happened. Sprained ankle playing tag at recess? It's happened (to me actually - wore a cast for 6 weeks). Stitches in the head from where a playground swing whacked you in the noggin during recess? It's happened (to my then-8 year old dh).
Many things happen but we can "reduce the risk" by making the environment safer, like replacing heavy wooden swings with soft cloth ones. It's not a guarantee, but then, nothing about life is a guarantee. We would be fools to think otherwise - litigation has its place for gross negligence causing bodily harm, but for crying out loud, accidents happen. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] Life's kind of a b*tch that way.
Carolyn
[This message has been edited by Cayley's Mom (edited May 25, 2003).]

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 3:12am
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b] Has anything been resolved? I'm sure with arachide "furiously taking notes" we'll see a summary of the debate very soon!
[/b]
I need a recap. Where are we at here...?

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 3:23am
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Hi Gail [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
I'm not sure about arachide's recap, but I feel that my above post summarizes and emphasizes many of the points erik has been making in this thread.
Again, I feel that mixing Canadian and American input is adding to the circular "we're not getting anywhere" feeling.
We have no school nurses in Canada - that's a huge difference in our school systems. Would more American kids be homeschooled if the schools there didn't have the nurse option (I realize not all school offer a nurse's services)?
I feel that comparing the 2 systems is comparing apples and oranges. We have many, many "peanut-free" schools here in Canada and no nurses to rely on. We rely mainly on voluntary compliance with regard to not sending peanut products to schools, and for the most part, it works brilliantly. On the other hand, very few American schools are peanut-free - and there was a nurse along on the field trip when Nathan Walters suffered his fatal reaction. Did this nurse not assist due to fear of legalities? Has the story come out on that?
"Where are we going?" is indeed a good question. Can we continue going along as if both our countries have the same fundamental protocols? No, I don't believe we can. We must differentiate between the two systems.
At least, that's what I think.
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 5:33am
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My recaps have been more like nightcaps these days....hic!
Actually I'm taking notes on points that may assist our school allergy committee (the cut-off letter to parents being one idea I like).
Carolyn, I see your point about the US/Can difference; apples and oranges if you will.
But what about the growing movement (at least in Quebec) to drop "peanut-free" from school descriptions? There was a regional conference held a few months ago where this was discussed. The party line is that it is "illegal" for schools to describe themselves as such because there was no 100% guarantee (this was the drivel I was given when discovering that the "peanut-free" statement published in our school's agenda was being removed).
Are some Canadian school boards starting to take their cue from their American counterparts? Would've been nicer had it been vice-versa...

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 7:59am
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Cayley's mom,
Hi. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
I *personally* see a distinct difference between the "boulder" and the "piano". Do you? Maybe it's just me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
As for Nathan Walter's and the school nurse...............
I have laid out what i *personally* feel would be desirable qualities in a school nurse. I also have laid out the significance of "working within the Standard of Care" my particular Nurse Practice Act REQUIRES. Work within the boundaries, and you have not only recourse, but significant confidence in the actions you proceed with. You have the benefit of untold experience and multidiciplinary collaberation. These offer you the opportunity of extending such to those you care for. Work outside the boundaries............ and well, your on your own.
I do not know the specifics of that day, but, I do know that if I were placed in a similiar situation, there would be much I would have to clarify before accepting the assignment. This type of clarification for me, would need more than a cursory discussion or [i]even an assumed understanding[/i]. It would have required Policy, Procedure, Protocol, and a mutual understanding of what [i]Standard of Care[/i] was [b]required[/b].
Again, I do not know the details of that day (Nathan Walter's). If indeed, appropriate Policy, Procedure, and Protocol had been in place, followed, and the REQUIRED "Standard of Care" adhered to......................
I would venture to say such would be deemed a [b]"Sentinel Event"[/b]. Indicating the need for closer scrutinization of the PPP and SOC in place. This may [b]not necessarily[/b] indicate change only on behalf of the formal institution.
Someone once requested I respond as a [i]mother[/i] and not a nurse. The day I received my licensure, I turned in my ability to do that. (Quite possibly, before that) I assumed the bonds, actually in retrospect (thank you Gail), I became [i]liberated[/i]. My path, although not word for word outlined in every instance, was defined. This definition became clearer through the aid of refined Critical Thinking Skills. The appropriate educational background, in theory, should prepare one to wield such a tool.
I do not *personally* feel this thread is as circular as you state. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] (Although I do find some reassurance in the same)
Again, to quote (from the top of a Cheerios box [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]):
"Once your level of consciousness has been raised, it cannot be lowered."
It is a "being made aware issue", IMHPAPO.
The seed is planted. The fruit it yields may quite possibly be directly proportional to the care it receives.
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely wondering outloud.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 8:45am
Chicago's picture
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Wow.
Glad this has it's own thread. Thanks erik for starting it.

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 9:09am
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I am under the impression that the "nurse" who was with Nathan Walters was the parent of another child who was accompanying her own child on the trip. She was there in the capacity of parent supervisor, not nurse. But if, as you say, once you're a nurse, you're bound to your duty, why didn't the parent supervisor hat come off long enough for her to recognize and treat anaphylaxis? I worry that it was because she was afraid of liability issues...
Anyway, I *personally* [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] am glad that you are getting something or feeling some sense of accomplishment from this thread. I see it as overwhelming, myself! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Carolyn

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 10:57am
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I am really reluctant to comment on the Nathan Waters case because it is so scary, so tragic and so recent. One part of the story struck me.
The "nurse" said she was reluctant to use his epi pen because he was screaming that he did not want the shot. Something like that. That was one of the reasons he went untreated.
Is that scary or what? I tried so hard to teach my son that the epi pen hurts like hell but the alternative is much much worse.
He uses it gladly but I shudder to think what would happen if he or anyone else would hesitate.
I also taught my kids (18 and 21!) that drugs and alcohol make you feel good, really good sometimes but that is no reason to use them.
Peggy

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 11:17am
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]I am under the impression that the "nurse" who was with Nathan Walters was the parent of another child who was accompanying her own child on the trip. She was there in the capacity of parent supervisor, not nurse. But if, as you say, once you're a nurse, you're bound to your duty, why didn't the parent supervisor hat come off long enough for her to recognize and treat anaphylaxis? I worry that it was because she was afraid of liability issues...
Carolyn[/b]
Are you indicating you feel a nurse would have been necessary to accomplish this task?
Who do you think should have been primary responder? Was there an "emergency plan"? Was there a policy procedure or protocol to indicate such? Do you think there should have been if there wasn't? (As I do not know the specifics of the situation)
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Merely asking questions.

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 12:21pm
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Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Many things happen but we can "reduce the risk" by making the environment safer, like replacing heavy wooden swings with soft cloth ones. It's not a guarantee, but then, nothing about life is a guarantee. We would be fools to think otherwise - litigation has its place for gross negligence causing bodily harm, but for crying out loud, accidents happen. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] Life's kind of a b*tch that way.[/b]
Hi Carolyn,
Thanks for your posts. Exactly the points I have been trying to make (Cynde helped too) although it took me a lot more posts than you (you are a much more eloquent and better writer than me! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] ). Like I said, the traffic light turns green but you still look both ways before you cross - don't assume anything - no guarantees in life.
I truly believe restricting peanuts from classrooms will make it a safer environment and occasional peanut products could possibly slip in (ie: M&Ms?), but restricting peanuts from a classroom does not give the PA child carte blanche to eat anything (must keep up guard at all times).
I also agree with your points about differences in Canada and the USA... as being a cause for circular discussions here in this thread (Although I also believe we are making some progress as we are all learning a lot as we continue to discuss this issue). I have learned new and interesting things from Gail and Momma Bear too
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 1:12pm
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Eric,
It's not so much restriction (as I still would like to see a plan even offering PPP to promote this if "restriction" is not voluntarily undertaken), it's the label I *personally* have concern with.
If you don't mind, please check out this link. Let me know if any of the questions asked quite possibly were things you might not "forsee". Please. It might make the position of certain "key players" (not necessarily the nurse) evident.
Some of the topics discussed in the link may not be relevant to what we were initially discussing, but would you say the "tone" of the topics are similiar?
This is a state specific link.
[url="http://www.tdh.state.tx.us/schoolhealth/faq.htm"]http://www.tdh.state.tx.us/schoolhealth/faq.htm[/url]
Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post. I am not offering advice in any manner or form.
edit to add link. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited May 26, 2003).]

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 2:32pm
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Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]Eric,
If you don't mind, please check out this link. Let me know if any of the questions asked quite possibly were things you might not "forsee". Please. [/b]
Hi Momma Bear,
I think you forgot to post the link. I will check it out tomorrow as it's sleep time now. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 11:28pm
Anonymous's picture
Anonymous (not verified)

Quote:Originally posted by Cayley's Mom:
[b]Laird tundering jaysus this is a long tread!! (Nice one, huh, Anne Marie? LOL! Aren't you from "the Rock"? Hee hee)
[/b]
Close, but no cigar. Actually, I'm from Toronto. My family is originally from PEI (aka heaven on earth).
So many excellent points have been made here, but I'll have to limit my comments.
Arachide, is your school (or is it board?) just changing the name, or now allowing peanuts in? I [i]personally[/i] don't feel the name matters. It's the rules, how clear and concise they are, and how well they are enforced. A rose by any other name....
As for the differences between US and Canada, we are still learning from each other. Maybe one small piece of info could be useful to someone from the [i]other[/i] country, so I like to see it all in one thread.
And MB, I wouldn't expect you to [i]stop thinking like a nurse[/i]. It's a part of who you are, and even if I don't [b]always[/b] understand you, I definitely learn from a lot of your posts. I, personally, appreciate that you offer some expertise.

Posted on: Sun, 05/25/2003 - 11:29pm
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Quote:Originally posted by erik:
[b] Hi Momma Bear,
I think you forgot to post the link. I will check it out tomorrow as it's sleep time now. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
[/b]
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 12:27am
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Excellent link, MommaBear. This shows how some of the points you've described to us are practically applied in a school setting by an RN. (Note at the end of the post is info re epi-pen administration.) It is very clear that a school nurse's "bottom lines" are "very high up on the food chain".
arachide, hope you take notes on this one! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Thanks, MommaBear.

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 1:54am
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Quote: MommaBear
Are you indicating you feel a nurse would have been necessary to accomplish this task?
Who do you think should have been primary responder? Was there an "emergency plan"? Was there a policy procedure or protocol to indicate such? Do you think there should have been if there wasn't? (As I do not know the specifics of the situation)
No, I do not feel a nurse was necessary to administer the EpiPen - the ball was dropped all over the place in Nathan's tragic situation. It is my understanding that this was indeed a sentinel event and procedures are now in place because he died. What I *am* saying, is that if the nurse who was present did not administer the EpiPen because she was afraid of legal issues associated with such, she still had a moral obligation to act. You cannot morally withhold life-saving treatment so you can cover your own behind - well, I guess you can and be legally safe, but it is ethically wrong. I will now search for the other thread I recall reading where a nurse took the legal and not the moral high road. I am very interested in your input on it, MB! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I'll post it below when I find it.
Also, Anne Marie (you are right - PEI is paradise on earth and I can't wait for a return visit!) I feel that the differences between the 2 countries are really big. Like, Canada doesn't have school nurses, so we're entirely out of the loop in that aspect of the debate. Americans don't have peanut-free schools, so that leaves them entirely out of the loop, there. These are the fundamental issues that both countries are trying to build protocols on and gain momentum from - and they're completely different foundations.
Anyway, JMHO. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Carolyn

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 2:16am
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I just came back to read MommaBear's link one more time. I have been trying to find something similar to Missouri, but no luck.
Again, I encourage anyone lurking (and participating) to read the link as it really "connects the dots" regarding many of the debates recently... liability, enforcement, why some of us (myself) require our child to attend a school that has a full-time RN, the whole "peanut-free vs gun-free" terminology, etc., etc.
Has anyone tried a search to find if there are any similar laws/ordinances/School-Board-or-provice-policy realted to health and safety? Looking for Canadian "bottom lines"....
Gail

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 2:22am
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Joined: 05/28/2009 - 16:42

Here are some threads dealing with my above comments on legalities vs. ethics:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000256.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000256.html[/url]
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000263.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000263.html[/url]
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000273.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000273.html[/url]
The first 2 threads detail the situation where a school principal would not allow the school nurse to administer an EpiPen, even thought the nurse thought the situation warranted it. The last thread deals with the nurse's supervisors backing up the principal. I thought you would enjoy reading the threads, MB, since they are dealing with the crucial American issue of school nurses and how they deal with established protocols.
Carolyn [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 3:21am
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Joined: 09/23/2002 - 09:00

Carolyn,
I've read these threads before [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]
The question is............ where is the bottom line and what PPP is in place that is reflective of such?
What role does Standard of Care play in these situations?
Would it behoove "key players" whom the "bottom line" affects to be aware of it?
Do attempts to circumvent the "bottom line" by "key players" necessarily effect change to the "bottom line"? Ethical? Legal? Both?
What sentiment do you feel is the "driving force" behind the "bottom line"?
Should one be knowledgeable of what recourse is available to them if they are aware the "bottom line" is being violated?
I don't *personally* feel that these threads negate the effacy of the School Nurse? Do you?
You mention fear of liability......... Do you feel there is a similiar fear in healthcare institutions? If so....... does that negate the need for Nurses in such a setting?? (ie: healthcare institutions)
MommaBear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]
Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 3:30am
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Joined: 05/28/2009 - 16:42

Hey MB. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
I think I'm going to take my own advice and stay out of the "nurse" debate, lol. It's merely "debate-practice" for me and will not have any real impact on our PA school life here in Canada. I am not saying that I don't feel nurses are necessary in schools, however, just so you're not getting that impression. It's lovely that US schools sometimes have nurses on staff. I will add that I feel the bottom line in schools for *all* concerned (from admin. on down) is student safety. I don't have the proper context to actually give back constructive dialogue on nursing protocols in schools - I'll leave it to those it actually impacts to debate/discuss it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]
Carolyn

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 4:07am
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Joined: 08/16/2000 - 09:00

In answer to your question AnnaMarie:
I can only cite the example of my specific school. There is a section in the front of the school

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 4:09am
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Still furiously taking notes, btw [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Posted on: Mon, 05/26/2003 - 4:25am
erik's picture
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Joined: 05/15/2001 - 09:00

Quote:Originally posted by arachide:
[b]I

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