Why NOT obtaining Section 504 for your child is a DISSERVICE to your child... Page 7

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:27

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] gvmom, I don't understand this point. I assume all laws have been broken. Section 504 of The Rehabilitation Act of 1973 is a law like any other. And it will be broken too. And, like other laws that are broken, there are procedures to follow and penalties.

[/b]

To me it's a porch issue. It's about whether one likes sitting on it, or hiding under it.

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:30

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b] These procedures . . . to control the classroom environment, the cleaning, etc . . . .[i]are[/i] the "Supplementary aids and services".

Momcat? Nutternomore? Corvallis Mom? Rhonda RS? Have I had this all wrong?

[/b]

You didn't ask me, but hey, it's what I've always said and thought. Personally? and it's worth nothing, and I could be wrong, but I still felt your instance qualified for "OHI" under IDEA. . .

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:31

So you take all this time and effort into getting a 504, then you have to take more time and effort fighting issues and penalties that could come about with getting a 504. I just dont know if it is worth it getting a 504. I know that not everyone faces issues with getting it, but there is still a chance. My husband thinks that we should wait and do something about it if the SD tries to fight us on anything, but then again, I would not like to wait until it is too late either...I am at a total toss.

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

__________________

Ally (nickname )
DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By Corvallis Mom on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:35

Keep in mind then, that even if you don't [i]win[/i] such a complaint, the SD will still [i]fear[/i] a complaint that involves the OCR if they have actually been guilty of malicious behavior.

On the other hand, you may decide (as we did) that the accommodations you would [i]have[/i] to ask for in a 504 would put you at such odds with your school that in the end, the liklihood of getting it to work at all is slim.

We elected [i]not[/i] to pursue a 504 for DD in kindergarten. But we knew better than to put her in school without one.

I agree that life is all about the grey... and that you have to decide internally where your own peronal point of diminishing returns is at. Give yourself permission to walk away when you reach that point. We had to do this as well when we pursued our own 504. I prepared well, but still, you really don't know how other people will behave... so we definitely had a plan B in mind when we started.

And if that is the case, then you are in a position to move forward confidently. If not, then you have to be a lot more tentative. And there is a point at which you really do have to take the plunge mentally. This is scary because we don't control the outcome.

But remember that if it isn't what you want, you can always step away and say "No, thank-you but this isn't going to work for my family..." Many members of this board have at one time or another done so.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

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By shoshana18 on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:37

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] is this called "acting oh so innocent"? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img][/b]

exactly the point, mommabear. the stinging remarks get old (and get everyone off the original point!).

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By Corvallis Mom on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:40

I am also very curious about something, Teddyally.

What does your husband think the SD will do for accommodations without a written 504 plan?

Why does he think that there will be more problems if you have one than if you don't?

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img]

I also wanted to clarify-- my own fears and pragmatism (can't really separate the 2 at this point) resulted in the decision to homeschool. It was the right thing for us to do. Therefore, when we requested a 504 plan with our cyberschool, we knew that walking away from an unacceptable accommodation plan was a no-brianer. (Just so you understand where I am coming from.)

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By Carefulmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:48

Shoshana, I definitely was not referring to you. In every thread I have ever seen on this board that has gone bad/destructive/rude/argumentative/nasty, there is one user who is always there. And it isn`t you.

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By Corvallis Mom on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:51

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]So you take all this time and effort into getting a 504, then you have to take more time and effort fighting issues and penalties that could come about with getting a 504. [/b]

Worst case scenario-- (you could read a few threads but let's just keep this theoretical...)

IF the SD you are dealing with is so heinous as to violate a disabled child's written accommodation plan (ie- 504), then what will these people do if you waltz in the principal's office and ask "Pretty please" if they will give your child a peanut-free classroom?

I do not understand how informal accommodations are going to work BETTER than formalized ones with people who are probably jerks.

You have no way of enforcing good will and promises. This is painfully fickle. Anyone at any time can derail you and you'll have nowhere to go to complain if the principal tells you to "Just deal with it." What if it is a matter of refusing to be trained with an Epipen? What will you do in the weeks or even months it will take to do your 504?

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:51

I'm wondering if TeddyAlly's husband thinks like mine did. He had met with the Principal and found her to be very understanding. Felt there was an air of good will and cooperativeness. It took more time to convince him that a 504 was the route to go -- mainly my telling him that during this one meeting he was set to have with the Principal, she'd try to weasle out of something (if only we had really wagered money). When push came to shove, and it really was getting down to the put up or shut up time, she tried to manuever out of something that I told DH she hadn't committed to in the first place. I actually felt kind of bad for him -- I know he likes the Principal, and I think he really gave her the benefit of the doubt. Oh well, he learned and we got our 504.

How it all plays out, well, we'll find out when the new school year starts.

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:55

[b]And there is a point at which you really do have to take the plunge mentally. This is scary because we don't control the outcome.[/b]

Nodding my head in agreement.

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:57

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]Gail, you don't understand my point. It really is politics. In the end, that is what it is. I don't believe one is able to keep it out. Maybe it doesn't play a heavy role where you are, but here, it is in everything. There is so much incestuous politicing in the school with the PTA, parents and administration I can hardly see straight. Laws exist, yes. There are procedures and penalities. There are always loopholes, battles over semantics and people with agendas (good and bad).

I know that the things in our 504 will ruffle the feathers of those on the PTA. It will ruffle the feathers of the teachers. It will ruffle the feathers of the parents in my son's class. I am already prepared to hear 'appropriate accommodations' a million more times. What we have asked for is minimal, I think. Basic. But what I know is that some will still think we are asking for the world. And I know, that while we shouldn't hear about it, we will. Gossip isn't squelched by laws. [/b]

Ummmm. . . I don't think you are familiar with the experiences that I've posted here on the boards.

gzmom, do you not realize that I requested a Section 504 designation in 2001, after my DD had [i]multiple[/i] allergic reactions at school, had been segregated on multiple occassions, and we were [i]denied[/i] a 504 without even a meeting and handed an IHP? And that [b]due to the very reasons you have stated above, we chose [i]not[/i] to fight the system?[/b]

taking deep breaths. . . .

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By shoshana18 on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:58

thanks for replying, carefulmom.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 20:06

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b]I agree that life is all about the grey... and that you have to decide internally where your own peronal point of diminishing returns is at. Give yourself permission to walk away when you reach that point. We had to do this as well when we pursued our own 504. [/b]

I believe in "grey" too. And I walked away from the 504 process once because it wasn't worth it at the time.

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By Momcat on Wed, 07-12-06, 20:18

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]Okay. I admit that now I'm completely confused:

These procedures . . . to control the classroom environment, the cleaning, etc . . . .[i]are[/i] the "Supplementary aids and services".

Momcat? Nutternomore? Corvallis Mom? Rhonda RS? Have I had this all wrong?

[/b]

No, you are right. The accommodations PA kids have under 504 are "supplementary aids and services." The administration of epinephrine is a supplementary service as well.

Cathy

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 20:24

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] You didn't ask me, but hey, it's what I've always said and thought. Personally? and it's worth nothing, and I could be wrong, but I still felt your instance qualified for "OHI" under IDEA. . .

[/b]

I know you do. And some days I do, too. But this was yet [i]another[/i] instance when we determined it [i]was not worth the fight[/i], or that I didn't have the fight in me, or perhaps that I've failed my daughter. [i]Again[/i]. Maybe even "all of the above".

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 20:27

Thanks Cathy. For a moment I thought I completely misunderstood the basic concepts.

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 20:30

Gail, while I don't know all the ins and outs of what you have gone through, the point is you have gone back to it. You chose not to fight at one time, for the reasons I've stated. Did you know about them before you chose to initiate the 504 process that led you to leave, or did you find out during? Do you think that going back to the process was easier the 2nd time because you had an idea of what you would be facing? If you had been warned, told of the possibilities the first time (if you were unaware going into it), do you think you would have walked away, or walked away at the same point, or would it have taken more to get you to the point of not fighting any more?

I think it is legitimate for anyone to get as much information as they can, or that they can think of, or that others volunteer to them, before starting a process. TeddyAlly is determining right now if it is worth it for her. She is asking questions, for herself, that will help her decide.

To be at the beginning of the process is daunting. You are already years into the experience of this whole process -- we aren't. I have the designation. I have accommodations. It will be put into action at the end of next month. I believe the struggle -- the hugest one -- is yet for us to face, due to the situation we are in, and who we are dealing with. TeddyAlly hasn't even decided if she wants to go through the process to get the designation yet. She has to make that evaluation based on her situation, who she is dealing with, what she is facing, and her own personal lines she might draw. Our process is in it's infancy compared to where you are at -- and we want to know what possibilities await us. To be prepared as best we can. It may make the difference as to where we draw our lines. When we walk away, or if we see that the hurdles are surmountable.

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 20:50

Can I ask a question then about LRE and "supplementary aids and services"?

If it is clear that the Epi pen falls under the category of "supplementary aid", why have there been problems getting them placed unlocked and in a classroom, with a trained person to administer? If they fall under that category, wouldn't not having an Epi-pen readily available, in an unlocked location near the student it is necessary for, violate one of the requirements of the LRE part of the ADA?

Wouldn't not having a nurse also violate the 'services' end of the LRE with respect to proper administration of medication?

Also, is it the soap required for handwashing that is considered the 'supplementary aid' and the getting children to wash hands the 'supplementary service'?

Extra paper towels for cleaning tables -- supplementary aid?

Eye rolling by the teacher -- supplementary service?

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By Momcat on Wed, 07-12-06, 20:51

For us, our decision was clear after experiences in Kindergarten. We found out the hard way that polite, friendly assurances that everything would be taken care of, DD would be safe, etc. are worthless. DD's own K teacher let DD choose a prize from her treasure box, which despite her assurances that it would be safe, contained Reese's peanut butter cups. This was discovered after DD suffered repeated contact reactions at school (probably from other kids eating their "prizes") When confronted this teacher sweetly said, "Well, it's not a problem because **** is so smart, she always chooses a toy!"

Unless there are legal consequences, people like that teacher will sweetly agree to everything you say, and then continue to do just as they please. For us, 504 was mandatory. We decided that if we were unable to obtain the designation and acceptable accommodations, DD would not attend public school. Period.

Ultimately, it was our stubborn insistence that prevailed. We suffered insults and veiled threats from school administrators, but nothing worse than that. I have decided to let bygones be bygones. I remain friendly and professional, and they are now friendly and professional toward me. TeddyAlly, if you are asking for my advice, I would say that you have very little to lose by requesting 504. They may just give it to you! If you find that there is going to be too much of a struggle, you can always accept a health plan.

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 12, 2006).]

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By Corvallis Mom on Wed, 07-12-06, 20:53

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]
Eye rolling by the teacher -- supplementary service?

[/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] ROFLMAO!!!!

Naw-- you get that even [i]without[/i] a formal disability designation. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] It's just a bonus.

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 20:54

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]I think it is legitimate for anyone to get as much information as they can, or that they can think of, or that others volunteer to them, before starting a process. TeddyAlly is determining right now if it is worth it for her. She is asking questions, for herself, that will help her decide. [/b]

This gets my "AMEN". I can only hope my posts are read with the assumption that I support everyone's quest to seek out information so that they can make the best decision for themselves and their child. That's was my whole intent of creating this thread . . .

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 21:01

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]. . . violate one of the requirements of the LRE part of the ADA?[/b]

Just clarifying, not meaning to be nit-picky, just wanting accuracy for readers. . . LRE has nothing to do with the Americans with Disabilities Act. The ADA is a completely different law.

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By Momcat on Wed, 07-12-06, 21:02

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]Can I ask a question then about LRE and "supplementary aids and services"?

If it is clear that the Epi pen falls under the category of "supplementary aid", why have there been problems getting them placed unlocked and in a classroom, with a trained person to administer? If they fall under that category, wouldn't not having an Epi-pen readily available, in an unlocked location near the student it is necessary for, violate one of the requirements of the LRE part of the ADA?

Wouldn't not having a nurse also violate the 'services' end of the LRE with respect to proper administration of medication?

Also, is it the soap required for handwashing that is considered the 'supplementary aid' and the getting children to wash hands the 'supplementary service'?

Extra paper towels for cleaning tables -- supplementary aid?

Eye rolling by the teacher -- supplementary service?

[/b]

gvmom,
The way I understand it, any type of medical procedure that must be performed by school personnel would fall under "related services." There are restrictions on what types of services they must provide. Obviously, they are not trained medical professionals, so they are not required to perform services that cannot be performed by a layperson with some minimal training. This means a nurse is not a requirement. There is a lawsuit going on in our district right now over whether school personnel (other than the nurses) can be required to administer insulin to diabetic children.

To get to the point: they have to have someone available to administer epipen, but there is nothing in the law saying that it has to be the child's teacher. You could certainly make the argument that proper administration means immediate administration and that if the teacher will not do it (state law says they don't have to) an aide would have to be present in the classroom to do it. Good luck getting your school without lunch tables to pay for an aide...

Cathy

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 21:16

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]I'm wondering if TeddyAlly's husband thinks like mine did. He had met with the Principal and found her to be very understanding. Felt there was an air of good will and cooperativeness. It took more time to convince him that a 504 was the route to go -- mainly my telling him that during this one meeting he was set to have with the Principal, she'd try to weasle out of something (if only we had really wagered money). When push came to shove, and it really was getting down to the put up or shut up time, she tried to manuever out of something that I told DH she hadn't committed to in the first place. I actually felt kind of bad for him -- I know he likes the Principal, and I think he really gave her the benefit of the doubt. Oh well, he learned and we got our 504.

How it all plays out, well, we'll find out when the new school year starts. [/b]

My husbands thing is Dont make trouble where there is no trouble to begin with. I understand where he is coming from but then again I dont want, like a few of you have said, it to back-fire so to speak. I know without a 504, I more than likely will not get what I expect. I am in the process of getting on paper what all I expect and taking it up with the allergist (to see what he can add or has to say about my concerns). From there I will offer my expectations to the school. And probably go ahead with the 504.

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

__________________

Ally (nickname )
DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 21:37

Okay, okay -- LRE is part of IDEA. But LRE extends to 504, which gets you to the ADA. Right?

Is there a part of all this debate that gets anyone to see that if we here are nitpicking eachother to death -- and we are supposed to be on the same side -- how it could make someone wary of venturing into this process with people who are in an adversarial position?

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 21:54

Right with you on the nitpicking issue, gvmom!

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

__________________

Ally (nickname )
DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By Corvallis Mom on Wed, 07-12-06, 21:59

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b] My husbands thing is Dont make trouble where there is no trouble to begin with. I understand where he is coming from but then again I dont want, like a few of you have said, it to back-fire so to speak. I know without a 504, I more than likely will not get what I expect. I am in the process of getting on paper what all I expect and taking it up with the allergist (to see what he can add or has to say about my concerns). From there I will offer my expectations to the school. And probably go ahead with the 504.

[/b]

That makes sense. It is a little naive... but it makes sense. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] (forgive my lack of tact there-- BTDT.) Most of us are just nice people who expected everyone else to play by the rules of social acceptibility-- but learned that when it comes to this allergy, people can really surprise you. And it is seldom in a [i]good[/i] way.

I mean, in theory, I agree with your DH. (And my own mother, btw, who has now finally grasped why a 504 for kids like ours is "the only way to go..." [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) But if they don't want to do it because the law says they must, why would I think they will because I'm nice about it? If the world worked that way, we wouldn't any of us need ADA at all, and neither would anyone else.

Am I worried they "won't like me?" Truly? Maybe I was. I was also afraid of the label. I hated the idea that anyone could think of my daughter as "defective," and I secretly thought (programmed by my mom who denigrated the use of ADA for less than debilitating disabilities....) that I was somehow "working the system," by having that label applied to my daughter.

But you become more cynical as you move along with this, so my perspective is quite different than it was three years ago.

At some point I realized that my daughter's "normal" life requires modifications that many families with "severe" disabilities find stifling or unbearable. (They've told me so. "Oh, we could never do what you do...") And many of them cringe at the label as well. It changes [i]everything[/i]. If that isn't a "disability," then what is? (Not everyone with a PA must live the way we do-- but we don't have a choice, and it [i]is[/i] severely limiting.)

This is why I mentioned that you have to come to peace with the terminology before you can decide to advocate. It is a real mental hurdle. IMO? This is the largest hurdle on the way to a plan everyone can live with.

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 22:21

Naeve, yes. I totally understand that. I had to take measures the way I saw fit last year..good thing the school worked with me (my husband thought I was pushing them too much,I didnt as it was for dd's safety). I am doing things a little differently this year and now that I know more about 504 (I knew nothing, never heard of it this time last year, things will be different. I am thankful that I have you all to help me thru this!

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

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DS (age 5)

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 22:59

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]Okay, okay -- LRE is part of IDEA. But LRE extends to 504, which gets you to the ADA. Right? [/b]

[b][i]No. [/i][/b]

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]Is there a part of all this debate that gets anyone to see that if we here are nitpicking eachother to death -- and we are supposed to be on the same side -- how it could make someone wary of venturing into this process with people who are in an adversarial position? [/b]

And while I'm the one who originally mentioned myself as possibly "nit-picky", I need to stress that the distinction between ADA and IDEA is very, very important. [i]I urge you to take the time to understand these laws. [/i]

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 23:15

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]If it is clear that the Epi pen falls under the category of "supplementary aid", why have there been problems getting them placed unlocked and in a classroom, with a trained person to administer? If they fall under that category, wouldn't not having an Epi-pen readily available, in an unlocked location near the student it is necessary for, violate one of the requirements of the LRE part of the ADA?[/b]

In addition to what Momcat posted, I wanted to add my opinion is that there are sometimes gaps and inconsistencies in policies and laws.

For example, my district had a school board policy that prohibited children from carrying any medication (except for metered dose inhalers). When our 504 plan was written and included that Mariah will carry her epi-pen, it trigger the SD to change this policy.

Also, I live in a state that currently does not give children the right to carry their medication (with the one and only exception of a metered dose inhaler). That law is now under revision to include epi-pens. I don't know if it will pass or not. But if my state had this law, then the school board policy prohibiting Mariah from carrying her epi-pen would have never existed.

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 23:18

[b]And while I'm the one who originally mentioned myself as possibly "nit-picky", I need to stress that the distinction between ADA and IDEA is very, very important. I urge you to take the time to understand these laws.[/b]

I know the distinction is important. Thanks for urging me to understand the laws. While I am typing this I have two boys going crazy, a puppy involved also -- and another dog trying to get himself in a different direction. I can only keep track of so many things, and windows with IDEA/LRE/504/ADA open at one time, looking for the specific language I am thinking of. I'm sorry that at this present time I'm getting weary of the fact that one seems to get beaten here with the same ferocity one prepares themselves to be confronted with from school administrators & personnel, friends & family.

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By Momcat on Wed, 07-12-06, 23:36

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]Okay, okay -- LRE is part of IDEA. But LRE extends to 504, which gets you to the ADA. Right?
[/b]

Purely for informational purposes: LRE applies only in the context of education.
IDEA applies only in the context of education. Section 504 has many subparts, one of which we are discussing here. Subpart D applies to preschool, elementary, secondary and adult education. Other subparts apply to employment, accessibility of facilities, health, welfare and social services. Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 was the precursor to the ADA which was enacted in 1990. The ADA has Title II (prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability in government services) and Title III (prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability in "public accommodations" which are businesses and non-profit agencies that serve the public.)

[url="http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html"]http://www.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/ocr/edlite-34cfr104.html[/url]

[url="http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/publicat.htm"]http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/publicat.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/finrule/1999-2/062499a.pdf"]http://www.ed.gov/legislation/FedRegister/finrule/1999-2/062499a.pdf[/url]

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 12, 2006).]

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 23:42

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b] I'm sorry that at this present time I'm getting weary of the fact that one seems to get beaten here with the same ferocity one prepares themselves to be confronted with from school administrators & personnel, friends & family.

[/b]

Am [i]I[/i] beating anyone/thing? I don't mean to, but if you feel that I am, then I will respect that and I will back off.

It's very discouraging to me that I'm here, not participating in the mud slinging, trying to hang in here to share whatever it is that I can, to read that . . .

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By Gail W on Thu, 07-13-06, 00:00

Cathy, just an aside, are you aware of any school lawsuits whereby a parent successfully applied ADA?

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By Momcat on Thu, 07-13-06, 00:02

It's probably me, Gail! I tend to be detail oriented.

C.

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By Gail W on Thu, 07-13-06, 00:07

Quote:Originally posted by Momcat:
[b]It's probably me, Gail! I tend to be detail oriented.

C.[/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I'm glad you're still hanging in here too.

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By Momcat on Thu, 07-13-06, 00:08

Sorry, we posted at the same time. Yes, there is a lawsuit that successfully used the ADA. A Catholic school which was receiving federal funds denied admission to a PA child because of her PA. The family enrolled the child in a different, more expensive school and sued the Catholic school in question. They were awarded the difference in tuition and the Catholic school agreed to change its policies.

I posted a copy (requested thru FOIA) of the OCR letter and settlement agreement with Saint Edward Elementary in Brockton (Brockton Public Schools).

It can be found here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002164.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/002164.html[/url]

There is also the La Petite Academy case where PA children were excluded from the school because the school refused to administer epipen. The lawsuit was settled and the school agreed to administer epipen. That case can also be found in the above link.

An unsuccessful bid to use the ADA is in Land v. Baptist Medical Center (concerning a child care facility).

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 12, 2006).]

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By Gail W on Thu, 07-13-06, 00:22

I started to post about Land being more recent, and then saw you came back and already did. LOL.

I forgot about the Catholic school in Brockton. That's right. But that was on the merits of [i]both [/i]ADA and Section 504, no?

And La Petite is a daycare facility, which has a different application than elementary education, right?

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By Momcat on Thu, 07-13-06, 00:44

Yes, you're right. It was BOTH. I guess since OCR took care of it, they considered it a 504 issue.

I'm trying to think of a school issue where ADA would apply, but 504 would not. I guess that would have to be a private, non-parochial school which did not receive gov't funds? I think the ADA has also been used successfully for camps (they are considered childcare facilities).

Cathy

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By MommaBear on Thu, 07-13-06, 01:19

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]BTW, the fact that you attribute Shoshana18's post to yourself is very telling isn't it? She didn't even mention your name.

[/b]

Hey, who was you're first pick? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] I mean, you commented. Or is it just my sixth sense kicking in again? So based on who you picked, and given my sixth sense, AND [i]your post after reraising[/i], AND the posters who had posted most recently prior to that, it's not rocket science.

I mean, are we discussing my reading comprehension skills again? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

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By MommaBear on Thu, 07-13-06, 01:22

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]Funny, I looked in to see what was added, and went huh? Did I miss something? Then went back a bit -- gotcha. No, I think you were clear too. Don't let the twisting keep you from posting. For the most part, the BS is entertaining, but transparent. [/b]

I mean, gvmom, I know you don't think I'm the brightest bulb, but give me a break----[i]even I understand *this*, considering at what point it was posted.[/i]

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By gvmom on Thu, 07-13-06, 02:04

[b]Hey, who was you're first pick? I mean, you commented. Or is it just my sixth sense kicking in again? So based on who you picked, and given my sixth sense, AND your post after reraising, AND the posters who had posted most recently prior to that, it's not rocket science.

I mean, are we discussing my reading comprehension skills again? [/b]

________________________________________

[b]I mean, gvmom, I know you don't think I'm the brightest bulb, but give me a break----even I understand *this*, considering at what point it was posted.[/b]

Do either of these comments have to do with the 504 and whether a child can be put into 'special ed' if deemed disabled, though not in need of those services? No. You want to start something with me, take it to 'Off Topic'. I am done in this thread.

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By qdebbie1 on Thu, 07-13-06, 03:28

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]... a disservice to YOU, YOUR SCHOOL, and, above all else, YOUR CHILD.

Having just been through the process of obtaining a Section 504 Designation for my 5th grade daughter, I have developed very strong opinions about why this designation is vital for my child. In retrospect, I wish I had requested this protection for my child before she started kindergarten. And I have learned that having NOT requested the Designation upfront created a different set of problems that I had to inevitably address.

I hope this thread will address the fears of parents who are considering whether or not to go the "504 path". I hope that parents will share their experiences in order to help other parents who are wrestling with whether or not to pursue a Section 504 Designation for their child... or those parents who are beginning the 504 Designation process... to help them better understand that a 504 designation might not be easy, but it is not to be feared.

I came to my school district with the idea that 504 was a confrontational process, and this was confirmed by my conversations with my School District. So I waited six years to request this protection to avoid this (for us, inevitable) confrontation. This was a mistake and my child ultimately suffered because of it.

I hope others will chime in to help explain the beauty and service of a Section 504 Designation for our children. It might be helpful to write our testimonials in a consistent format if possible. I will write my comments in the format of my mistaken "myth" about 504, and why/how the reality of 504 better serves my child.

I try to add to this over time, as I hope others will too. Please add your experience if you also bought into a myth that has already been stated. And please also add to the myth(s) you experienced.

[b]Myth #1: Requesting a Section 504 will label me as a "difficult parent" and the School District won't want to work with me. [/b]

I found the opposite to be true. Having the 504 Designation made it clear to everyone why the school district needed to address accommodations. It provided the correct motivation for the school to proactively address accommodations and removed the onus of responsibility from me (parent) to the school district. By squarely defining the school district's accountability, it [i]liberated me [/i]from the my repeated requests to the SD. When the responsibility was mine to identify and advocating for specific accommodations, I felt like a "pest" and I was much [i]more [/i] llikely to be labeled "difficult". Now that the SD has acknowledged that their student has a legal right for protections, they take more responsibility to identify and address accommodations. I am viewed from a completely different light.

I realized rather late that by not having the Section 504 Designation, I also was left to negotiate with other parents directly. Before the SD understood that 'related services' applied to ALL activities, they directed me to coordinate activities with the other parent volunteers. This will always put you/me in the terribly awkward position of negotiating with other parents. THIS WAS A HUGE MISTAKE, and I find it impossible for a parent to not to have some sort of negative fall out by having been placed in this erroneous position.

A Section 504 Designation allows a parent to foster healthy interactions with other parents and staff. You become the "supportive, cooperative" parent that assists other parents in implementing [i]the School District's accommodations[/i].

[b]Myth #2: It is better if the school staff find me to be cooperative and likeable. It's better to avoid conflict with staff because if the staff doesn't like me, my child may not be treated as well by the staff.[/b]

Again, I fund the opposite to be true. Sorta. I think it is important to cooperate with staff. But what happened was that by not having the 504 Designation, I was placed in the incorrect position of directly [i]negotiating[/i] with school staff and parents. This is just a losing position for any parent to be in.

The better and appropriate position is for the SD to acknowledge to its staff that this child is legally entitled to accommodations, and that these are not directly negotiated between school staff and the parent, or parent/parent. They are accommodations are created by a "504 Team", are implemented and enforced by the school administration. It removes you from on-going negotiations directly with your teacher/principal, and again liberates you to a more appropriate role of supporting the teacher/school/parents in [i]the School District's accommodations [/i]for your child.

[b]Myth #3: My School (School District) is cooperating with me and I have the accommodations that I want. A 504 is not necessary.[/b]

Again, I found this not to be true. My school staff cooperated and had a very good IHP in place. I always felt the uncomfortable strain that they "were doing so much already" and that I somehow didn't appreciate this because I was asking them to address other new accommodations as they became apparent. I always felt beholden for the attention and the good accommodations that I had negotiated with them to provide. They seemed to want to create an IHP and then they "were done".

The 504 Designation maintains the School District's [i]accountability[/i] to proactively create the accommodations. This accountability and ownership is necessary for you to have a good, healthy relationship with your school community.[/b]

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By MommaBear on Thu, 07-13-06, 14:00

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]Do either of these comments have to do with the 504 and whether a child can be put into 'special ed' if deemed disabled, though not in need of those services? No. You want to start something with me, take it to 'Off Topic'. I am done in this thread.

[/b]

where were these feelings several pages ago when [i]you[/i] started something with me, ie: "gotcha" comment when, indeed, we were discussing something pertinent to this topic?

[i]Golf clap in *your* honor.[/i]

So yeah, stereotypes. We are now talking about the BIGGEST FEAR again, right? Not about [b]"Why NOT obtaining Section 504 for your child is a DISSERVICE to your child....."[/b] but [i]rather[/i] (begin sarcasm----) how Sped classrooms are soooooooooooo awful that (sarcasm warning) the BIGGEST FEAR you *should* have obtaining one is that school districts will place your child in one of the [i]prolific number[/i] (more sarcasm) of sped classrooms that actually exist, devoted solely to LD (or whatever) out of retalliation. (End sarcasm.) Oh, wait, not yet-----I mean, is there a "terror alert" color for this too?

Guess I was pretty accurate in my original impression.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 13, 2006).]

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By MommaBear on Thu, 07-13-06, 14:11

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b] Ever play poker? Bridge?[/b]

this is my 6 year old's department. His current obsession is playing cards and poker chips.

Quote:[b]Sometimes finesse can be helpful -- and I find if you do it right, you can get more bang for your buck if it becomes their idea first, KWIM?[/b]

the problem with finesse, is that often it requires [i]lying[/i]. Fudging. A [i]poker face[/i]. I'm not good at this. Not even when the stakes are [i]insurmountable[/i]. Call it a flaw. It's why I choose the road less travelled, and probably, more exhausting. But hey, it's my gift. It's what I'm good at. It's who I'm meant to be.

Quote:[b]Like too, how you at least admit -- FINALLY -- that you are in Chicago, with lawyers even! The whole country bumpkin thing really was wearing thin.[/b]

My heart says differently. It's yearning to go back to my tin can in the woods. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] The cubs too. I mean, how many baby books state: [i]"My First shopping expedition to 'Rural King'--- July 2, 2006"?[/i]

And how many babies' onesies state: [b]"My parents took me to 'Rural King' and all I got was this lousy onesie"[/b]?

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 13, 2006).]

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By TeddyAlly on Thu, 07-13-06, 15:05

{Ignoring MB's Comments as she just doesnt get it and wants to argue with Everyone}

What info is most important when you present 504 to allergist?

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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By Corvallis Mom on Thu, 07-13-06, 15:29

I would say that the first thing to do with your allergist is to find out how much they know about 504.

If it is "nothing" or "not much" then you need to educate them FIRST.

Give "official" information from AAFA, OCR and the like... then let them digest it.

After all of that, ask whether or not they are comfortable advocating for you with a letter, and ask if you can be helpful with wording, or even provide them with a draft of something suitable. It depends on your doctor and your relationship with him/her how "controlling" you want to be at that point.

HTH [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

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By TeddyAlly on Thu, 07-13-06, 15:33

Thank you...I really appreciate your help. I just never really knew how to get started. I have always known what I wanted/expected for the safety of dd, but didnt know who or how to get it all in the works. Now I know...Thank You Much!

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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DS (age 5)

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By Carefulmom on Thu, 07-13-06, 15:39

If it were me, I would call Rhonda before doing anything else. She can tell you how involved you do or don`t need your allergist to be. For us, all we needed was a very short letter from the allergist. It was a one minute phone call to him. I didn`t give him any info from OCR or on 504s or anything like that. I would call Rhonda first and see if she thinks you need to start with the allergist. I personally started with the school nurse. I vote for not making it any more complicated than it needs to be. You may need all the things other people posted about, but you may not. 90% of the things that I read about people on this board having to do for a 504, we did not do. Our process was very quick. I`d start with Rhonda first and see what you do or don`t need to do.

[This message has been edited by Carefulmom (edited July 13, 2006).]

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By Corvallis Mom on Thu, 07-13-06, 15:53

This is certainly true. (shrug)

I would also argue, however, that it never hurts anything if your physician gives you a real winner of a letter-- even if something less would have been adequate. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

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