Why NOT obtaining Section 504 for your child is a DISSERVICE to your child... Page 6

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:03

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]
Just dont understand why you had to be so rude to begin with and so it goes on....

[/b]

read your own post. glad you posted mine. I think I was quite congenial. Placid, even.

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:05

I'll ask again: [i]Is "Special Education" necessarily "Special Education Classes"?[/i]

(lol) numsie, whatever.......

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:05

I did read my own post...Hey, I posted it! Maybe you should re-read it from the point I was posting it. I see you are Still missing my point even as it has been explained Several times to you!

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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DS (age 5)

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:08

Quote:Originally posted by Momcat:
[b]
Things are not rosy all over. Here, our education budgets have been slashed to the bone. Children with severe behavioral problems are being warehoused in "special day classes" in the name of mainstreaming. Not a day goes by at DD's school where the principal or vice principal has to drop everything and rush over to one of these classrooms because one of these kids has become violent or attempted to run off. These are kids who need someone to work with them one-on-one, but the resources are not available! These classes are a three-ring circus where very little learning is taking place. They are indeed "special ed classes from a horror movie."

Cathy

[/b]

Sad that people's fears create places like that, huh? Honestly? I haven't seen anything in a "Behavior Disorder" that strikes me as any more disruptive than what two brothers (ages 10 and 6) can do arguing over who gets to use the tv first: the playstation or the dvd. (LOL)

gvmom, can I get an AMEN?

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:08

At our school, YES, Special Education IS Special Classes!!! Special Education has their own section in the school...their own hall. Special Education students are not in with non-SE students..they are not in the same classrooms.

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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Ally (nickname )
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DS (age 5)

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By Corvallis Mom on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:09

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
Maybe this is a [i]California/Oregon[/i] thing. I don't know. Just guessing.

But My School District doesn't have "behavior classrooms". If "behavior" proves to be disruptive, unmanageable, there are [i]Therapeutic Day Schools[/i]. [/b]

Really? Talk to your local teachers and I'll bet you anything that they do.
That isn't what they call such things. Naturally. These are [i]not[/i] kids who have identifiable problems per se-- just kids who are unruly and disruptive in a classroom setting. Certain teachers have a better ability to deal with that sort of thing. Being human, that is.
SO-- (following my logic here) doesn't it seem perfectly reasonable that a teacher who handles behavioral issues particularly well mught get more than their "fair share" of these kids?
And no, I am not talking about kids who are threatening, mentally ill, or lewd. Those children are not in the school population for long, this is true. I'm referring to the kids who kick other kids' chairs continuously for fun, bully their classmates periodically, etc. etc. The kids whose parents don't much care about them. THOSE kids.

Don't tell me that the midwest is absent such children. Parents like that are everywhere.

Kids can be bahavior problems without qualifiying in any way, shape, or form for "SpEd" status, can't they? What infraction is required to be removed from a regular instructional environment these days, anyhow? I'm guessing that persistant name-calling or a lack of sharing in third grade wouldn't make the cut. "At risk?" Oh he** yes. But little delinquents? Well, not [i]yet[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

(Maybe it [i]is[/i] different on the West coast. Here we give such children to teachers who can handle them with compassion and respect. Like my mother-- who had more than her share over 35 yrs. You certainly don't place them with teachers who have difficulty maintaining order with them in the classroom, or they won't spend much time there.)

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:14

[b]You come tell me that when they call your child the "Food Allergy Kid", or the "Peanut Boy", or yourself: "Overprotective".

Or don't want to be in "that" classroom, due to the presence of a Food Allergic Child. I mean, do you get it?[/b]

I have been there. I still am there. I get it from many different places -- not just people through school. But, I know, that here isn't where I'm getting that. Sure, maybe in 'Off Topic' -- but seriously, in a thread in Schools -- and most especially in this particular thread -- it isn't about me and my particular reasons for feeling defensive in my daily 'regular' life, in the 'real' world.

BTW, the fact that you attribute Shoshana18's post to yourself is very telling isn't it? She didn't even mention your name.

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:16

[b]Sad that people's fears create places like that, huh? Honestly? I haven't seen anything in a "Behavior Disorder" that strikes me as any more disruptive than what two brothers (ages 10 and 6) can do arguing over who gets to use the tv first: the playstation or the dvd. (LOL)

gvmom, can I get an AMEN? [/b]

Or fighting over 1 piece of the thousands of pieces of Lego!

AMEN.

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:16

gvmom! Thank You!!

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

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DS (age 5)

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By Corvallis Mom on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:18

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]At our school, YES, Special Education IS Special Classes!!! Special Education has their own section in the school...their own hall. Special Education students are not in with non-SE students..they are not in the same classrooms.

[/b]

And in this case, I think your concerns are quite valid. Particularly if your SD has not done a 504/OHI designation for a health impairment in the absense of a LD.

They may be confused about physical placement of your child in such an instance.

But it is also fairly likely that you don't know about the sizeable percentage of SpEd kids who are sitting in the "regular" classrooms because all they need to have a level playing field is a single, simple adaptation that is virtually invisible.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:30

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b] And in this case, I think your concerns are quite valid. Particularly if your SD has not done a 504/OHI designation for a health impairment in the absense of a LD.

They may be confused about physical placement of your child in such an instance.

But it is also fairly likely that you don't know about the sizeable percentage of SpEd kids who are sitting in the "regular" classrooms because all they need to have a level playing field is a single, simple adaptation that is virtually invisible.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img][/b]

Good point and well taken! I am not sure about the sizeable percentages of SpEd in 'regular classrooms' and being as though dd is only in 1st grade, I am not too concerned with SpEd in regular classrooms. Mainly concerned that 504 will prompt SD to atempt to put dd in SpEd due to the 'disability status' that 504 will add. I do not want her held behind in learning or learning at a slower rate (speaking from my sister's experience) simply due to food allergies. That is my concern because of the fact that this school has CLASSROOMS for LD children. I have absolutly nothing against SpEd or LD children or Gifted children!! My only concern is that 504 might push SD into something that is not neccessary for my child.

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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Ally (nickname )
DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:38

[b]To the maximum extent appropriate, children with disabilities. ... should be educated with children who are not disabled, and ... special classes, separate schooling, or other removal of children with disabilities from the regular educational environment should occur only when the nature or severity of the disability is such that education in regular classes with the use of supplementary aids and services cannot be achieved satisfactorily. 20 U.S.C. 1412(a)(5)(B)[/b]

This references LRE. Least Restrictive Environment. When I read that, yes, it strikes me that the nature of it would keep one's child in a regular classroom. But I also see loopholes, or technicalities with semantics that could be used to make a parent's life difficult. "Supplementary aids and services" aren't going to keep my son from going into anaphylaxis. Controlling the classroom environment, what comes into it, what comes into it on who, and how things are cleaned & handled are what will keep him safe. A school might say that in a regular classroom that is impossible -- especially if there are enough parents ragging on them about their kids right to the peanut butter bird feeder, or the birthday cupcake, or the cultural potluck,etc.

We want schools to recognize that the severity of our child's disability is a matter of life or death. Our children could die from just smelling, touching, sitting next too, etc, microscopic amounts of nut -- right? What stops the school from saying 'you are right'! Good God! In a regular classroom we can't provide the safeguards for your child, that they are entitled to under the accommodation section of your 504. Sure, you betcha. You've got your designation as disabled. But now, being disabled, we have to make sure that we do all we are supposed to given the rights they are entitled to. Yes, LRE -- but the environment that is least restrictive here at this school isn't the regular classroom they've been in. I mean, there is no way a regular classroom can be less restrictive than this other classroom over here -- with less students -- with a higher ratio -- more attention -- more control -- more specialized. And by the way, just to make sure they are even safer at lunch, we'll stick them in this conference room over here -- or how about the office. They won't be around all the other kids eating peanut butter and jelly.

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By Momcat on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:40

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] Sad that people's fears create places like that, huh? Honestly? I haven't seen anything in a "Behavior Disorder" that strikes me as any more disruptive than what two brothers (ages 10 and 6) can do arguing over who gets to use the tv first: the playstation or the dvd. (LOL)

gvmom, can I get an AMEN?[/b]

It is a sickening, tragic waste of human potential! You may declare it doesn't exist or try to laugh it off, but it is occurring, nevertheless.

In an environment like our school district (which I have heard has the honor of "most sued school district in the state") concerns like TeddyAlly's are very real.

Cathy

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:43

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b][b]To the maximum extent appropriate, children with disabilities. ... should be educated with children who are not disabled, and ... special classes, separate schooling, or other removal of children with disabilities from the regular educational environment should occur only when the nature or severity of the disability is such that education in regular classes with the use of supplementary aids and services cannot be achieved satisfactorily. 20 U.S.C. 1412(a)(5)(B)[/b]

This references LRE. Least Restrictive Environment. When I read that, yes, it strikes me that the nature of it would keep one's child in a regular classroom. But I also see loopholes, or technicalities with semantics that could be used to make a parent's life difficult. "Supplementary aids and services" aren't going to keep my son from going into anaphylaxis. Controlling the classroom environment, what comes into it, what comes into it on who, and how things are cleaned & handled are what will keep him safe. A school might say that in a regular classroom that is impossible -- especially if there are enough parents ragging on them about their kids right to the peanut butter bird feeder, or the birthday cupcake, or the cultural potluck,etc.

We want schools to recognize that the severity of our child's disability is a matter of life or death. Our children could die from just smelling, touching, sitting next too, etc, microscopic amounts of nut -- right? What stops the school from saying 'you are right'! Good God! In a regular classroom we can't provide the safeguards for your child, that they are entitled to under the accommodation section of your 504. Sure, you betcha. You've got your designation as disabled. But now, being disabled, we have to make sure that we do all we are supposed to given the rights they are entitled to. Yes, LRE -- but the environment that is least restrictive here at this school isn't the regular classroom they've been in. I mean, there is no way a regular classroom can be less restrictive than this other classroom over here -- with less students -- with a higher ratio -- more attention -- more control -- more specialized. And by the way, just to make sure they are even safer at lunch, we'll stick them in this conference room over here -- or how about the office. They won't be around all the other kids eating peanut butter and jelly. [/b]

You are a mind-reader [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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Ally (nickname )
DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By Corvallis Mom on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:45

Yes.... please note that "confused" is a euphemism in my earlier post.
I think that such a thing is likely to be done either out of retaliation or for the reasons outlined just above (basically, having their heads up their...well, you know).

And in the case of retaliation, "confused" isn't the term either.

504 doesn't just protect our kids physical well-being, but theoretically protects their academic and emotional well-being as well.

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:50

Ok, so here's another...

Say I get a 504 and they do limit dd's education by pulling her out of class for every little project that she cannot participate in or lunch or put her in other classes, and I find that with a 504, I have shot myself in the foot (so to speak). How to you get out of 504? How do you get it to go away? I know it can be motified and all, but There Will Be Loop-holes and say I just want OUT of It...then what? Is there a way out?

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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Ally (nickname )
DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:50

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]I did read my own post...Hey, I posted it! Maybe you should re-read it from the point I was posting it. I see you are Still missing my point even as it has been explained Several times to you!

[/b]

are you being "rude"?

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:52

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b]
are you being "rude"? [/b]

Do I not have the right to defend myself? You have that right...

Plus, I tend to get a little b!tchy when I get picked at over and over again...And I see that you do as well.

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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Ally (nickname )
DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:56

TeddyAlly, would you please comment on this post of mine:

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]I guess maybe that's because I never thought TeddyAlly had any issue/problem with "Special Ed" itself. . . just misplacement.[/b]

I want to be sure that I understand you.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 12, 2006).]

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:59

Gail, you hit it! I have No Issue with SpEd, just improper placement that SD COULD have due to 504. I think SpEd is wonderful for the students that benefit from it; SpEd is not my issue directly! Improper placement due to food allergies and 504 is my issue. Thank you Gail!

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

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DS (age 5)

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 16:59

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]
This references LRE. Least Restrictive Environment. When I read that, yes, it strikes me that the nature of it would keep one's child in a regular classroom. But I also see loopholes, or technicalities with semantics that could be used to make a parent's life difficult. "Supplementary aids and services" aren't going to keep my son from going into anaphylaxis. Controlling the classroom environment, what comes into it, what comes into it on who, and how things are cleaned & handled are what will keep him safe. A school might say that in a regular classroom that is impossible -- especially if there are enough parents ragging on them about their kids right to the peanut butter bird feeder, or the birthday cupcake, or the cultural potluck,etc.

[/b]

oh, fah, I see it as working the other way. Especially if you apply the hysteria some parents get worked up into at the mere mention of a "Special Ed" classroom. I mean, all those [i]uncontrollable[/i] behavior disorders [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] lurking about in there. Especially the ones who [i]just have to have their peanut butter[/i] in order to placate them. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] (sarcasm intended)

No advice, but, hey, the year my oldest was in a "self contained" classroom, the issue of another child [i]needing[/i] their peanut butter (in the classroom at a common table no less) *DID* come up. Because of their disability. Their federally protected disability. Their disability that was federally protected to be in the [i]Least Restrictive Environment[/i] disability. Their Sped status, I mean. So, no, your argument doesn't make any *real* sense to me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Honestly? There was teasing with peanut butter at the lunch table by some students in the "self-contained" classroom (not self contained for lunch hour---in the general population) that year. Honestly? I don't think the child was being as [i]sinister[/i] as it appeared. The sped teacher should have done her job and intervened not chalked it up to harmless teasing. I mean, she should have done some educating, but I digress. Not once, last year did teasing occur in the "regular education" classroom, although there were several "SPED" students, mine included, in that classroom. Hmmmmmmmmmm. (could environment have an effect? different expectations? ) hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, (there I go, digressing again,) But no, your argument, imagination, doesn't make sense to me, having experienced both worlds. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

edited to add: "Because of their disability. Their federally protected disability. Their disability that was federally protected to be in the [i]Least Restrictive Environment[/i] disability."

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 12, 2006).]

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:01

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b] Do I not have the right to defend myself? You have that right...[/b]

glad I have your permission.

Quote:[b]Plus, I tend to get a little b!tchy when I get picked at over and over again...And I see that you do as well.[/b]

Ya think? (and people wonder why "so many pages". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] )

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:03

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]Ok, so here's another...

Say I get a 504 and they do limit dd's education by pulling her out of class for every little project that she cannot participate in or lunch or put her in other classes, and I find that with a 504, I have shot myself in the foot (so to speak). [/b]

You mean, you'd sign and approve her being pulled out for "every little project that she cannot participate in or lunch"? Is that LRE?

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By Momcat on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:03

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]Ok, so here's another...

Say I get a 504 and they do limit dd's education by pulling her out of class for every little project that she cannot participate in [/b]

Having a 504 plan is meant to PREVENT things like this from happening. Also, 504's are not written in stone. There are periodic reevaluations. I would think that the school would be only too happy to have you tell them that your child no longer needs accommodations. After all, they receive no funding for 504 students, they just have to do more work!

On the topic of school district placement decisions, here is another thread about being placed in a different school:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001889.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001889.html[/url] Unfortunately, this *can* be used by school districts as a kind of retaliation. They can place your child in worse school, far away, even in another district! It may be difficult to prove that the placement is inappropriate or the result of retaliation. That said, I have rarely seen this come up. Most people are not facing this kind intimidation when they ask for 504. More often, they are faced with ignorance which can be overcome with time and information. You are the best judge of the climate in your school and school district. You risk little by simply asking the district special ed office about how they handle life-threatening food allergies. Their answer will tell you a lot about what you will have to face if you go for a 504.

Cathy

[This message has been edited by Momcat (edited July 12, 2006).]

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:03

Yeah, I hear ya on the PAGES...yet you still pick, MB.

I am dropping this with you and I hope you will do the same. I am moving on with Real Issues rather than arguing (childishly) with you, I only hope that you will do the same.

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

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DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:07

Thank you Cathy for helping out with my questions!

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

__________________

Ally (nickname )
DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:07

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]Yeah, I hear ya on the PAGES...yet you still pick, MB.

I am dropping this with you and I hope you will do the same. I am moving on with Real Issues rather than arguing (childishly) with you, I only hope that you will do the same.

[/b]

THATS dropping it???! You had me fooled. For a sentence. Don't be surprised if I consider that [i]picking[/i]. Be even less surprised if I don't step back.

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:13

Thank you.

You've raised the question/issue that it is possible your child may be misplaced during the 'Evaluation & Placement' process.

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:16

Has anyone here been faced with improper placement?

How long will 504 'lable' my child? Can I get out of 504 once in?

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

__________________

Ally (nickname )
DD (PA & TNA, age 8)
DS (age 5)

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:18

Quote:Originally posted by Momcat:
[b]

On the topic of school district placement decisions, here is another thread about being placed in a different school:
[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001889.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001889.html[/url] Unfortunately, this *can* be used by school districts as a kind of retaliation. [/b]

whoohoo! I was looking for that thread. (Gail, I posted to you in it)

Not for these reasons, but for some others. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Anywhooooooo, my child was placed "out of district", but for reasons related to his learning disability, or so they thought. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] Actually, I think it also had to do with the need for a full time nurse. And the fact that they were unsure of what type of classroom would suit him best. Getting toes wet after homeschooling, I mean. Don't really think it was a "retaliation" issue, (hindsight can be that way, yes, Gail?) but hey, look! I might have made a difference, they took it upon themselves to fill a full time nursing position in district, and last year, my cub attended at a school "in district", although not necessarily the school associated with my address, but hey, it was closer to my home to boot.(!) I mean, something good happened. Either way, a full time nursing position was filled, and they figured out my child was indeed capable of excelling in a "Less Restrictive" environment. (Glory, Hallelujia!)

No, I don't think it was retaliation, just fate. And some honest to goodness "Getting It", and change. For the better.

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:19

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]I am moving on with Real Issues rather than arguing (childishly) with you, I only hope that you will do the same. [/b]

Okay.

Can you let me know if/when you ever want to go here:

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]I think there are lots of possibilities that can happen during the 504 process, and it's helpful to sort through and weigh them. Personally, of all the worries and possible downsides to obtaining a 504, misplacement would be very far down on my list. Not to discount this concern, just my perspective.

If anyone would ever like to explore some of the downsides of a 504, I'd be willing and interested to do that. But I'm not sure if that's what anyone wants. . . and I don't want to derail anyone's process here.[/b]

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:20

[b]Not once, last year did teasing occur in the "regular education" classroom,[/b]

Well, then maybe Illinois is really different than California, because the teasing my son has gotten has been in the 'regular' classroom and play area.

Also, you like to make jokes about the lawyers that live around me -- well, one of the great things about that is I get an insight into how laws can be used against me. Lots of 'devils advocate' questions get posed to me. Sure, it has been very helpful to have a neighbor so involved in the school -- I get lots of useful information, including the knowledge that traditions are more important than my sons life. Oh, sure, it is round about -- but, really, the mere idea that her kid might be in a class next year with mine, eating at a table inside, not outside on the blacktop, nearly gave her a heart attack -- I mean, her child might miss out on 5 minutes worth of conversation with her best friend if they aren't in the same class. Add to that 1/2 hour of mental gymnastics of her trying to figure the odds that her child won't be in the same class as mine. Yes, I ended up getting a phone call with an apology later because I think she realized what that must have been for me to listen to that, but trust me, an apology is nice, but the true sentiment was in the first call.

The point? Well, 'OH FAH' is great. But 'Oh Fah' doesn't keep the people who like to be in control (my lawyer friend) off the PTA. Doesn't keep them from pulling strings at the school, or in the classroom after they get the teacher in their back pocket -- teachers are wonderful people, but they already have enough to deal with don't they? Ugh, along comes someone who wants hands washed, tables wiped, curriculum changed! 'Oh Fah' doesn't keep the principal from weighing her options, thinking about school coffers, and how she can make her life easier -- who to placate. We are the only Food Allergy family that has approached her about anything policy related. The only ones who have asked for and gotten a 504. Trail blazing great -- but some of the advantages are also countered when the other Food Allergy children do 'just fine' without all of the things we are asking for.

Yes, maybe California is different than Illinois. Maybe we have a higher ratio of jerks. It is possible -- but we've seen lots of articles posted here about people all over this great nation throwing tantrums and making people's lives **** because their kid needs to eat peanut butter.

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:21

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]Has anyone here been faced with improper placement? [/b]

see my previous post. wasn't "retalliation", wasn't malicious, just due, in part, to ignorance. And time needed for the district to get up the "learning curve". [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Quote:[b]How long will 504 'lable' my child? Can I get out of 504 once in?

[/b]

I simply refused to sign one. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img] (no advice, just what I did. Individual Mileage May Vary)

In the end, my child was given a designation of "Other Heath Impairment" under IDEA. Again, no advice. I'll just quietly say *I* am pleased with it.

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:28

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]
Well, then maybe Illinois is really different than California, because the teasing my son has gotten has been in the 'regular' classroom and play area. [/b]

I'm telling ya....the tax base out here is stupendous for school districts. Ever consider owning one of the lovely (and affordable) homes in my area?? [i]We could be neighbors!![/i] (caution: watch for flying citrus rinds spewed over our deck from goblets of Sangria)

Quote:[b]Also, you like to make jokes about the lawyers that live around me -- well, one of the great things about that is I get an insight into how laws can be used against me. Lots of 'devils advocate' questions get posed to me. [/b]

this is where cajones come in handy. I'm probably not "in tune" with these fears. The first lawyer I dispensed with the school district pitted against me I fondly (sorta) refer to as Mrs. Evil. Not surprisingly, so do many other lawyers I've come across. (We have them over here as well. I mean, this IS Chicago, [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] . A stroll down LaSalle Street or Dearborn will make that apparent.

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:30

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[B Sure, it has been very helpful to have a neighbor so involved in the school -- I get lots of useful information, including the knowledge that traditions are more important than my sons life. Oh, sure, it is round about -- but, really, the mere idea that her kid might be in a class next year with mine, eating at a table inside, not outside on the blacktop, nearly gave her a heart attack -- I mean, her child might miss out on 5 minutes worth of conversation with her best friend if they aren't in the same class. Add to that 1/2 hour of mental gymnastics of her trying to figure the odds that her child won't be in the same class as mine. Yes, I ended up getting a phone call with an apology later because I think she realized what that must have been for me to listen to that, but trust me, an apology is nice, but the true sentiment was in the first call.

[/B]

As Gail so magnificently pointed out, are they (regular education students) entitled to "Least Restrictive Environment"??

Great point, again, Gail.

(ps.....gvmom, are you reading Gail's posts??)

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By Corvallis Mom on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:30

Regarding the question of whether or not the "label" is permanent, think of it this way--

504 [i]requires[/i] periodic re-evaluations. Of the plan, and I presume of the need for one in the first place. (Yes? [i] Anyone feel free here...[/i])

and also this:

Many children who are medically fragile due to a non-communicable illness would be covered by IDEA or 504. Of course. What about when the illness is resolved? So a child with cancer might need protections afforded them under ADA, but not once they go into remission, right?

So I think in practice (though I don't know since I am the furthest thing from an attorney...) this is a non-issue. Either you as the parent or the school can call for a re-evaluation. My impression has always been that this can be at any time there is a need percieved by either side.

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:32

I, personally, want to know the down-side as well as the positives of 504. I dont want to know only the positives and then hit with the negitives after I have a 504...by then I will be stuck.

Gail, not arguing with you [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] You have been nothing but help and I appreciate it!

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:33

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]Has anyone here been faced with improper placement? [/b]

Great question. You might want to consider asking this question in a new topic in Schools. I'm not too optimistic it will be seen here. . . buried on page 9.

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:49

Thank you Gail, question has been raised in a new topic.

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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DS (age 5)

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 17:53

[b](ps.....gvmom, are you reading Gail's posts??)
[/b]

Yes, I am. Are you really reading mine? You know -- reading them trying to get my point of view, not the words in the post with your spin on it? You of all people should get how things can be twisted -- you do it all the time in your posting. Let's get real. The thing is, on this board it doesn't screw with my kids 504, in real life it could if someone in the administration enjoyed the same sort of entertainment stylizations.

As for the sangria -- well, I'd take a glass -- but hopefully we'd be throwing the rinds at the neighbor on the other side whose kids still eat peanut butter.

And as for cajones -- well, I have them, but have a different philosophy on when to show them. Fearful of lawyers, no. Worried yes -- why? Because I don't like to spend my life fighting. Believe it or not. Listening to Mrs. Devil's Advocate is very helpful. It has come in handy many times. Had I flashed my cajones, I know that my source of inside info would be cut off. Ever play poker? Bridge? Sometimes finesse can be helpful -- and I find if you do it right, you can get more bang for your buck if it becomes their idea first, KWIM?

Like too, how you at least admit -- FINALLY -- that you are in Chicago, with lawyers even! The whole country bumpkin thing really was wearing thin.

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 18:11

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]The point? . . . .(it). . . doesn't keep the people who like to be in control (my lawyer friend) off the PTA. Doesn't keep them from pulling strings at the school, or in the classroom after they get the teacher in their back pocket -- teachers are wonderful people, but they already have enough to deal with don't they? Ugh, along comes someone who wants hands washed, tables wiped, curriculum changed! 'Oh Fah' doesn't keep the principal from weighing her options, thinking about school coffers, and how she can make her life easier -- who to placate.[/b]

gvmom, I don't understand this point. I assume all laws have been broken. Section 504 of The Rehabilitation Act of 1973 is a law like any other. And it will be broken too. And, like other laws that are broken, there are procedures to follow and penalties.

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By shoshana18 on Wed, 07-12-06, 18:28

personal attack?:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by shoshana18:
teddyally,
it was very clear where you were coming from.
unfortunately, you are right -- some people on these boards make it their sport to try and stick it to people. there are some rather mean-spirited individuals here who love to come across as "oh-so-innocent".

now, mommabear...guilty conscience? i didn't attack you; i didn't even mention your name. i was merely supporting teddyally -- she was trying to get answers, but instead felt SHE was attacked...been there.

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By Carefulmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 18:39

TeddyAlly, so sorry that your totally innocuous question keeps getting lost by someone who gets off on arguing with just about anyone on this board. It is a shame, as you are just trying to get help and that is what this board is supposed to be about. Can someone post contact information for Rhonda? I think she could help TeddyAlly alot. I never had to use her because my 504 process was very smooth, but many on this board have found her really helpful. She will probably be able to fully answer the question of is there a down side. From other people`s posts when they contacted Rhonda, it sounds like Rhonda will pretty much guide you through the process.

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By Gail W on Wed, 07-12-06, 18:41

Okay. I admit that now I'm completely confused:

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b] Least Restrictive Environment. When I read that, yes, it strikes me that the nature of it would keep one's child in a regular classroom. But I also see loopholes, or technicalities with semantics that could be used to make a parent's life difficult. "Supplementary aids and services" aren't going to keep my son from going into anaphylaxis. Controlling the classroom environment, what comes into it, what comes into it on who, and how things are cleaned & handled are what will keep him safe. [/b]

These procedures . . . to control the classroom environment, the cleaning, etc . . . .[i]are[/i] the "Supplementary aids and services".

Momcat? Nutternomore? Corvallis Mom? Rhonda RS? Have I had this all wrong?

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 18:51

You know, I think that part of the problem here is that for me there is a point at which I would say 'enough is enough'. That yes, there is a point at which I would just pull my son out rather than fight. It really isn't because of fear, it isn't because I don't believe there aren't ways to rectify problems with the laws provided with respect to this subject.

DH and I have talked about what we are willing to take on, fight for, how far we will take something -- sometimes the price one pays for being right isn't worth it depending on what it is. To win at all costs isn't where we are at. Everyone has to evaluate things for their own situation, true. The types of things that take a toll on one person, may not take a toll on another. But for us, if certain possibilities came to fruition, we would stop. And really, however anyone wants to take that, fine, I'm cool with it. But we understand people's capacity for being nasty -- and we understand that there are things people do and say that we couldn't even imagine or think of yet. I don't underestimate the human capacity for thoughtless, cruel and selfish behavior -- even when it comes to the well-being of a child. Sad to say. I don't believe that my child will be immune from the small mindedness of others -- I would like it if they were, but this isn't a debate on 'idealistic' vs 'realistic'.

I believe that there are those that would twist the language of 504's, IDEA's, LRE, ADA, etc, against you in order that they maintain the status quo and get you out of their hair. Sometimes knowing the degree someone can take it, knowing the ease or difficulty of the remedy for that -- well, it all can help in assessing if you start the process in the first place.

Everyone's approach is different right? Well, how some of us even get to the point of believing we will actually go ahead and start the process can be just as different -- so can the reasons why some of us wouldn't start a process. Isn't it better for TeddyAlly to recieve a fair answer -- a real answer to her concern, to truly help her decide if she goes ahead with the 504? I don't believe it is helpful to her in determining if she wants to go ahead, to basically attack her as though she has a problem with 'special ed' and those in it. Her approach may be different, but the end goal is helping her help her child. If that means she asks a question that speaks from the point she is starting from, her nexis of personal concerns, shouldn't we do our best to speak to that?

Gail, you don't understand my point. It really is politics. In the end, that is what it is. I don't believe one is able to keep it out. Maybe it doesn't play a heavy role where you are, but here, it is in everything. There is so much incestuous politicing in the school with the PTA, parents and administration I can hardly see straight. Laws exist, yes. There are procedures and penalities. There are always loopholes, battles over semantics and people with agendas (good and bad).

I know that the things in our 504 will ruffle the feathers of those on the PTA. It will ruffle the feathers of the teachers. It will ruffle the feathers of the parents in my son's class. I am already prepared to hear 'appropriate accommodations' a million more times. What we have asked for is minimal, I think. Basic. But what I know is that some will still think we are asking for the world. And I know, that while we shouldn't hear about it, we will. Gossip isn't squelched by laws.

Black and white works great on paper, but much of life is gray. Trying to separate gray back into black and white can be difficult, if you are standing alone in the midst of a bunch of people with 'spin' on their side.

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 18:59

Thank you shoshana18 for sticking up for me..yes, all I wanted was answers to my questions and didnt really think I would be attacked for asking. Thought PeanutAllergy.com was a place to ask questions and get support. Thanks for helping me out!

Carefulmom, I would love to get in touch with others that can help me with my questions and not bash me for asking them. Thank you!!

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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By shoshana18 on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:03

no problem, teddyally.

carefulmom, if you are referring to me. i don't get off by arguing with just about everybody. i don't often have the mainstream point-of-view on most things, granted. it's good to have an open mind, though, and listen to differing opinions.

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By TeddyAlly on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:04

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]
Everyone's approach is different right? Well, how some of us even get to the point of believing we will actually go ahead and start the process can be just as different -- so can the reasons why some of us wouldn't start a process. Isn't it better for TeddyAlly to recieve a fair answer -- a real answer to her concern, to truly help her decide if she goes ahead with the 504? I don't believe it is helpful to her in determining if she wants to go ahead, to basically attack her as though she has a problem with 'special ed' and those in it. Her approach may be different, but the end goal is helping her help her child. If that means she asks a question that speaks from the point she is starting from, her nexis of personal concerns, shouldn't we do our best to speak to that?

Black and white works great on paper, but much of life is gray. Trying to separate gray back into black and white can be difficult, if you are standing alone in the midst of a bunch of people with 'spin' on their side.[/b]

Yes, and that is what frightens me...it does work on paper, but loop-holes are not always listed on that paper. Thank you for helping me find real answers...just dont want to get caught up in a loop-hole somewhere. It is not SpEd that bothers me at all or disruptive children (they are in every classroom [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] ), it is the recource that the SD could take regarding 504

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 12, 2006).]

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By MommaBear on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:25

Quote:Originally posted by shoshana18:
[b]now, mommabear...guilty conscience? i didn't attack you; i didn't even mention your name. i was merely supporting teddyally -- she was trying to get answers, but instead felt SHE was attacked...been there.

[/b]

is this called "acting oh so innocent"? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

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By gvmom on Wed, 07-12-06, 19:26

Shoshana, my guess is Carefulmom wasn't referring to you -- but I could be wrong.

And TeddyAlly, I understand your concern about loopholes. That is why your post & question was something that struck a cord with me. It always has remained in my mind that there are those here who have had to go to many lengths to get a 504 because of what the SD does. There are those that have sought out lawyers, have litigated, have had to go to the OCR -- just because it hasn't happened to me, doesn't mean I don't believe it could. Sometimes administrators don't care how big your cajones are, because right now, even with laws, the findings could come down on either side. Food Allergy awarness and laws are gaining momentum -- but the general public is slower to catch up, and like it or not that can play an enormous role in how things shake out.

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