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Why NOT obtaining Section 504 for your child is a DISSERVICE to your child...

509 replies [Last post]
By gvmom on Thu, 06-29-06, 03:29

Bumping up ............

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By TeddyAlly on Mon, 07-10-06, 19:53

Where I was coming from with the Special Education mention was because my sister had a very slight speech problem growing up. She was MADE to be in Special Ed Classes which put her behind in a lot of areas in school. My mom pushed and pushed to have her taken out and put back with her class and the school wouldnt do it. We were in a Very small school system and my mom felt powerless. When my sister was finally moved back in with her class (about a year or two after she was put in Special Ed), she was at the lowest GPA in her class. She is 2.5 years older than me and in high school were we in the same classes...I felt bad for her because she didnt feel smart at all having her younger sister in algebra, english, science and a few other classes with her.

My daughter is very intelligent for her age and my husband and I dont want her held back due to her "Disability" status. I know it is different from my sister's disability, but we are in a small school system as well.

I know I am going to get harped on for not already having a 504 and for not having the process started yet. I am getting with dd's allergist on this and a few other things within the next 2 weeks. I am in Texas and from what I have read, Texas doesnt really "honor" 504.

Oh, and the "biggest fear" mention in my other post was HIS BIGGEST FEAR ABOUT 504, not his biggest fear for Our daughter! This is why I dont post much, some people like to turn things around and make others out to be heartless, uncaring, cold parents.

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 10, 2006).]

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By shoshana18 on Mon, 07-10-06, 20:14

teddyally,
it was very clear where you were coming from.

unfortunately, you are right -- some people on these boards make it their sport to try and stick it to people. there are some rather mean-spirited individuals here who love to come across as "oh-so-innocent".

i'm sure you will do what is right for your little ones.

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By gvmom on Mon, 07-10-06, 22:29

Funny, I looked in to see what was added, and went huh? Did I miss something? Then went back a bit -- gotcha. No, I think you were clear too. Don't let the twisting keep you from posting. For the most part, the BS is entertaining, but transparent. The fact that you are here, trying to find out as much info to help your child, is proof enough that you are not a 'heartless, uncaring, cold parent'. I think your questions were legitimate and understandable. All the 504/IDEA stuff can be very confusing. Lots of technicalities, personalities and legalities involved -- keeping it all clear & together is hard.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 16:53

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]Funny, I looked in to see what was added, and went huh? Did I miss something? Then went back a bit -- gotcha. No, I think you were clear too. Don't let the twisting keep you from posting. For the most part, the BS is entertaining, but transparent. [/b]

completely understand about "transparent". I mean, I completely understand why some posters in this thread are peeved with me. The answers might be found in the "Conception and Advanced Maternal Age thread". Well, at least it's transparent to me.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 16:59

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]Where I was coming from with the Special Education mention was because my sister had a very slight speech problem growing up. She was MADE to be in Special Ed Classes which put her behind in a lot of areas in school. My mom pushed and pushed to have her taken out and put back with her class and the school wouldnt do it. We were in a Very small school system and my mom felt powerless. When my sister was finally moved back in with her class (about a year or two after she was put in Special Ed), she was at the lowest GPA in her class. She is 2.5 years older than me and in high school were we in the same classes...I felt bad for her because she didnt feel smart at all having her younger sister in algebra, english, science and a few other classes with her.

My daughter is very intelligent for her age and my husband and I dont want her held back due to her "Disability" status. I know it is different from my sister's disability, but we are in a small school system as well.

I know I am going to get harped on for not already having a 504 and for not having the process started yet. I am getting with dd's allergist on this and a few other things within the next 2 weeks. I am in Texas and from what I have read, Texas doesnt really "honor" 504.

Oh, and the "biggest fear" mention in my other post was HIS BIGGEST FEAR ABOUT 504, not his biggest fear for Our daughter! This is why I dont post much, some people like to turn things around and make others out to be heartless, uncaring, cold parents.

[/b]
no advice, but,

my cub is in "Special Education". For a "learning disability" (for lack of a better description) [b]and[/b] for his LTFA and Asthma. (LTFA and Asthma covered under [b]OHI[/b] and as part of his [b]IEP[/b], under which his "learning disability" is also covered. Both under [b]IDEA[/b].)

My youngest cub's similiar needs were addressed under an IEP (Child Find type of thing, pre kindergarten) for three years.

And it may come as a surprise to you that NEITHER of them will be in a "Special Education Classroom" this year. As a matter of fact, my oldest was at the top of his fourth grade class last year. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Funny thing, stereotypical ideals, huh? I mean, what BIGGEST FEARS may be.

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By TeddyAlly on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:09

Glad to hear that yours will not have to go thru what my sister did..no, not surprised!

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:09

Quote:Originally posted by shoshana18:
[b]
unfortunately, you are right -- some people on these boards make it their sport to try and stick it to people. there are some rather mean-spirited individuals here who love to come across as "oh-so-innocent".

[/b]

hope I don't come across as "oh-so-stupid".

<>

Hate it when that happens to me.

There's been so much (at least it feels like it) that I "put out there" (while hating every naked minute of it--you'll never know how much I hate it, I tell ya) and hoping others might have some degree of hope or benefit reading it.

Without advice intended and only as a curious spectacle.

I could just be a "Maybe it's just you." thing, KWIM? (smack to my forehead)

But yeah, what mistake, huh?

I mean, I just never got used to being insulted. No matter how "weird" people like to paint me.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:15

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]I am in Texas and from what I have read, Texas doesnt really "honor" 504.

[/b]

No advice, but Texas is just another state in the Union. Just one of fifty. (I live in Illinois, and we look at Texas as the same-ol-same-ol, KWIM?) Texas doesn't have any special status, exemption, whatever. (That I know of) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

BUT HEY, I COULD BE WRONG.

ps....have you seen the "Give Texas back to Mexico" petition at petitiononline dot com?

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:21

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]Glad to hear that yours will not have to go thru what my sister did..no, not surprised![/b]

adding: [i]My oldest was in a "Specialized Instruction" classroom last year for only [b]one[/b] class last year.[/i]

Probably would have done exceptionally well in the "Regular Education Classroom" last year for *that* class as well too. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] But hey, we were just getting our toes used to the water. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

No advice, just speaking personally, but I don't think it was [i]harmful[/i], [b]for him[/b] in any way. Maybe it's just my cub(s), but I haven't found much that holds them back. BTW, there were some *great* children in *both* classes. As well as those who test our limits. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] I mean, [i]that's life[/i], is it not?

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By Gail W on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:29

TeddyAlly, I apologize if my comments were hurtful to you. I certainly didn't intend them to be. I'd also like to share a personal experience to help clarify where I'm coming from re the whole "Special Ed label".

When Mariah was 3 or so I visited our designated elementary school and spoke to the principal in anticipation of kindergarten in a couple years. I explained the whole PA situation, which was fairly new stuff then (DD is now almost 13, so that would have been nearly 10 years ago). The principal said the school had a full time district RN (wonderful news), and went on to say that she'd want Mariah "evaluated by Special Ed". I was totally mortified. Mariah is a bright kid and her PA had nothing whatsoever to do with her ability to learn. I envisioned her being "stuck" in a separate class, much like your sister's experience, and I was offended. I was so horrified that we looked around for other public schools, sold our house, and moved into another district. (Which is where we still are now.)

So I definitely understand the "fear" I felt when that school principal "mislabeled" my daughter for having an "special education" issue instead of a "health issue". Frankly, I didn't want her to have a "Special Ed" label because I thought it was inappropriate.

Or so I then thought. But being where I am now, 10 years later, I see it so very, very differently. The principal was probably one of the only education professionals who may have actually seen this in the proper light. IMO, the proper procedure *is* for a full evaluation by "Special Education" under both IDEA and Section 504. Just exactly as that principal had stated to me, and that offended me so. And this, ironically, is what I ended up fighting [i]years [/i]for in my current school district.

What I didn't understand was that a "Special Ed" label (protection under IDEA) didn't necessarily mean "Special Ed [i]classes[/i]". A "Special Ed" label, for Mariah's asthma/allergy, would mean that she has an accommodation plan (an IEP) that would be protected under IDEA, a very powerful protection. Some would argue that an accommodation plan under IDEA (an IEP, a.k.a. "Special Ed") would give Mariah [i]more [/i]protections than the exact same accommodation plan protected under Section 504 (a 504 plan). Even if the accommodation plans (504 and IEP) were exactly the same. (I don't know if *I* believe this, BTW, but I now would snatch the IDEA label regardless.)

Does any of this make sense? It is confusing.

A full evaluation finally did take place at my years of *my* [i]insistence[/i] and Mariah's health needs (food allergies/asthma) were evaluated under both IDEA (a.k.a. "Special Ed") and Section 504. It was determined that her PA/asthma did not qualify for protection under IDEA ("Special Ed"), but did qualify under Section 504. But again, if I were offered an IEP (a.k.a. "Special Ed", IDEA) I'd take it.

Ironic, isn't it? If I had stayed in our original school district and had the "Special Ed" evaluation just as the principal suggested, the one that offended me so much so that I moved, Mariah would have had the protections that took me over 5 years of *%&# to obtain here in her current SD.

[This message has been edited by Gail W (edited July 11, 2006).]

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By gvmom on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:40

Mommabear, is it possible for you to just stop for one minute? I mean really now. TeddyAlly has a legitimate concern -- not an indictment of 'Special Education'. You know, I get that 504 is designating a child -- it designates them with a disability. For some of us -- at least our situation -- many of the students designated with disabilities, are those that need the benefits of specialized education. That isn't a bad thing. What can be of concern, is that if you go ahead and get your child designated, will the school -- not thrilled with having to accommodate you -- put a child, not in need of specialized education, in with those students that do need it. Not that my child would catch cooties -- but he doesn't need to be in a class with children in need of specialized education for learning disabilities.

I mean can't you imagine that a school would say, "So you want 504 designation? Fine we'll give you one. Your child is disabled -- oh, yeah, here you go". I had this fear trying to figure out lunch at our school. Not that our son would be hurt by the special ed kids if he sat with them for lunch -- but I wanted him with his class. I wanted him to continue to participate in the school, with the kids he has been with -- not pulled out, and placed with children who have a completely different type of disability designation than he has. But for the Food Allergy, he is behaviorally, socially, academically, etc, where he should be for his age.

Now, make what you are gonna make of that. But step back for a minute. Put the chip down. Also, if you are going to let wierd people paint you, one suggestion, you should have done it while you were pregnant. It would have been a much more interesting painting.

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By TeddyAlly on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:42

Thank you so much for sharing your story with me/us! I understand more now than I did before the posts were made. Thank you!!! I am looking into it all now (still confusing, but starting to make better sence). I too would have been mortified and taken the same action as you. It is nice to hear that we are not alone in this...your story was very helpful!

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By Gail W on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:44

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]What can be of concern, is that if you go ahead and get your child designated, will the school -- not thrilled with having to accommodate you -- put a child, not in need of specialized education, in with those students that do need it. [/b]

This is a violation of your child's right to a "Least Restrictive Environment" and is illegal.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:52

and ps....what you've "read" or what you've experienced personally?

I mean, [b]ABSOLUTELY NOT AS ADVICE, BUT ONLY WRT MY PERSONAL SITUATION[/b]:

[i]I shudder to think of the implications if I would have only taken into consideration what I read (or heard, or had been bombarded with) regarding my children or those who are similiar.[/i] I can't let stereotypes guide me. The stakes are too high.

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By Gail W on Tue, 07-11-06, 17:57

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] I can't let stereotypes guide me. The stakes are too high. [/b]

I admit that Mariah probably did not get what she needed because I had stereotypes (re Special Ed). I regret it very, very much.

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By gvmom on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:01

[b]This is a violation of your child's right to a "Least Restrictive Environment" and is illegal.[/b]

Yes, I realize this. But for some of us who are new to this whole process -- 504/IDEA -- we can be wary. Our school had never designated a child with Food Allergies before. Luckily our Principal has been fairly decent about the whole thing. There are those out there that haven't been fortunate. That maybe are nervous about the whole process. Are confused by it. That have Principal's and school personnel that aren't helpful, or are obnoxious, or don't get how it works either. There are a whole host of variables, and I think to dismiss the concern at issue right now as some sort of commentary about 'special education' really detracts from a legitimate worry that some of us can have.

Haven't anyone ever heard of 'Be careful what you wish for!' I have found that irony is a common thread throughout my life. Many decisions I make, I think of the ramifications of -- in many lights, not just the one that will be the best turn out for my child. I am not a gambling woman when it comes to my children. The decisions I make for them are, on the whole, well thought out. I truly had to think carefully, not as long as my DH, about the pro's and con's of the 504 designation for our son.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:06

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]Mommabear, is it possible for you to just stop for one minute? I mean really now. TeddyAlly has a legitimate concern -- not an indictment of 'Special Education'. You know, I get that 504 is designating a child -- it designates them with a disability. For some of us -- at least our situation -- many of the students designated with disabilities, are those that need the benefits of specialized education. That isn't a bad thing. What can be of concern, is that if you go ahead and get your child designated, will the school -- not thrilled with having to accommodate you -- put a child, not in need of specialized education, in with those students that do need it. Not that my child would catch cooties -- but he doesn't need to be in a class with children in need of specialized education for learning disabilities.

I mean can't you imagine that a school would say, "So you want 504 designation? Fine we'll give you one. Your child is disabled -- oh, yeah, here you go". I had this fear trying to figure out lunch at our school. Not that our son would be hurt by the special ed kids if he sat with them for lunch -- but I wanted him with his class. I wanted him to continue to participate in the school, with the kids he has been with -- not pulled out, and placed with children who have a completely different type of disability designation than he has. But for the Food Allergy, he is behaviorally, socially, academically, etc, where he should be for his age.

Now, make what you are gonna make of that. But step back for a minute. Put the chip down. Also, if you are going to let wierd people paint you, one suggestion, you should have done it while you were pregnant. It would have been a much more interesting painting.

[/b]

no offense, gvmom, but this reads like someone who has never had a child in "Special Education". I mean, that whole stereotype about "Special Education" classrooms. Very passe, I mean.

[i]But I don't have a 504.[/i]Was offered one a while back, but don't have one. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

My child's pa and asthma (and learning disability) is covered under [i]IDEA[/i]. And personally? I didn't find either as hard to get as some people might think, or [i]read about[/i]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] But then again, I didn't stop. Not for even a [i]minute[/i].

Chalk it up to my perseverative nature. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] [i]Disability[/i], whatever. What you might read about.

None-the-less, I consider accommodations for his pa and asthma [i]special education[/i]. I mean, he receives [i]services[/i] because of them. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Anywhoooooooo, even if the "label" for his "learning disability" was dropped, I'm told he would retain his "OHI" [b]designation[/b]. (Other Health Impairment)

Impairment=disability?

Who knows, but I think so. It [i]prohibited[/i] his [b]safe access[/b] to [i]education[/i]. I mean, either a health concern affects ability to safely access education (or access in general), or it does not. Speaking of pregnant, someone I was chatting with this week reminded me: A LTFA is like being pregnant. Either you are, or you aren't. There is no inbetween.

I've been doing a lot of foot work getting my sister (age 57) [i]disability[/i] benefits from Social Security. [i]You would be amazed how similiar the mentality is[/i]. Her hearing is in August. I'm confident it will work out (health concerns aside, I mean.).

No advice, just personal thoughts about my *own* personal situation. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:08

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]There are a whole host of variables, and I think to dismiss the concern at issue right now as some sort of commentary about 'special education' really detracts from a legitimate worry that some of us can have.

[/b]

oooooh. [i]I so disagree.[/i]

Forest. Trees.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:25

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]

What I didn't understand was that a "Special Ed" label (protection under IDEA) didn't necessarily mean "Special Ed [i]classes[/i]". A "Special Ed" label, for Mariah's asthma/allergy, would mean that she has an accommodation plan (an IEP) that would be protected under IDEA, a very powerful protection. Some would argue that an accommodation plan under IDEA (an IEP, a.k.a. "Special Ed") would give Mariah [i]more [/i]protections than the exact same accommodation plan protected under Section 504 (a 504 plan). Even if the accommodation plans (504 and IEP) were exactly the same. (I don't know if *I* believe this, BTW, but I now would snatch the IDEA label regardless.)

Does any of this make sense? [/b]

[i]perfect.[/i] (eyes stinging, and I don't cry often, for anyone, over anything. Not anymore.)

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By TeddyAlly on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:30

gvmom, you hit the nail on the head as to what our worries are with 'special education'. I do not want the school taking our 504 and then hitting us with 'special classes' when she has no learning disability. I want her kept with her class and in a safe enviro. That was what our worry has been with 504. If she had a learning disability then I could see putting her in special classes...but I cannot see special classes due to food allergies; that is just not fair to her.

Didnt mean to have this turn heated!

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 11, 2006).]

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By gvmom on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:33

[b]no offense, gvmom, but this reads like someone who has never had a child in "Special Education". I mean, that whole stereotype about "Special Education" classrooms. Very passe, I mean. [/b]

No offense taken. And you are right, my son hasn't been in a special ed class. There is one special ed class at his school -- and while I realize that not all special ed classes fit into the stereotype, this one does. You always talk about your own unique, individualized situation -- well, is it possible for you to step outside of your own unique situation, and see that elsewhere in this country there are still those stereotypical special ed classes. My son isn't in need of the accommodations afforded by those classes. I am glad that there are services available for students who do need them, but my son doesn't. If getting a 504 designation meant that he would have been placed in that class, I wouldn't have gotten the 504. Not as an indictment on the 'special ed' students, but because his needs wouldn't have been met by being placed in that class.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:40

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]gvmom, you hit the nail on the head as to what our worries are with 'special education'. I do not want the school taking our 504 and then hitting us with 'special classes' when she has no learning disability. I want her kept with her class and in a safe enviro. That was what our worry has been with 504. If she had a learning disability then I could see putting her in special classes...but I cannot see special classes due to food allergies; that is just not fair to her. [/b]

sigh. stereotypical fears such as these are *exactly* why this needs to be addressed. And in this thread. You don't just get put into THOSE (read: shock, horror, fear [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]) [i]types of classes[/i]. Don't even know if they truly exist except for in peoples' minds.

My child's IEP is very unique. Individualized. Unto him alone. And he *does* have a [i]label[/i]. For a "learning disability", even, pa....asthma aside.

And he is in the "regular" education classroom. Right along with all your/the "normal" children.

[i]mwhahahahaha![/i] (sinister laugh) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Even a potential for him to be in a [i]gifted[/i] (spit, ick, ptooey--have to get the taste out of my mouth) class. Sitting right along all those other supposedly *normal* children. (Wait! Could this be a discussion about the implications of "peanut free" tables also???)

Anywhoooo, it's my impression any time you desire a school to *evaluate*/consider your child for a [i]special need/disability[/i] they are required to look at the *big picture*, just in case. I mean, when asking them to make accommodations, changes, deviations from the [i]norm[/i]. But hey, I could be wrong.

No advice.

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By gvmom on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:42

[b]I do not want the school taking our 504 and then hitting us with 'special classes' when she has no learning disability[/b]

To be broadsided by people sucks, and with some of the stories that people have posted, and just one's own experiences, it is possible. I don't take the possibility of retribution out of the picture when dealing with people who don't want to change. Accommodating Food Allergies isn't on top of peoples lists of things to be thrilled about. Somehow everyone's child has a god given right to a peanut butter sandwich. I don't think for one minute that everyone is going to be nice about what we have put in place for the coming school year. I know people will be pi$$ed off -- including my neighbor across the street whose daughter has been in my son's classes the past two years. I've gotten an earful of opinion, her fishing expeditions to find out what we are trying to get as accommmodations. There are many things that aren't legal -- but we also don't want to turn our lives into a daily battle, daily litigation. There is only so much we are willing to do -- so far we are willing to go. Knowing that you have to fight day in and day out -- and with people who might screw you with a technicality -- well, it is something to keep in mind. At least, in my opinion.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:50

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]gvmom, you hit the nail on the head as to what our worries are with 'special education'. I do not want the school taking our 504 and then hitting us with 'special classes' when she has no learning disability. I want her kept with her class and in a safe enviro. That was what our worry has been with 504. If she had a learning disability then I could see putting her in special classes...but I cannot see special classes due to food allergies; that is just not fair to her.

[/b]

I haven't met a parent yet that didn't feel at least a twinge of envy when they realized the accommodations [i]afforded[/i] to my child due to his learning disability. I mean, every child should be so lucky.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 18:53

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]
To be broadsided by people sucks, and with some of the stories that people have posted, and just one's own experiences, it is possible. I don't take the possibility of retribution out of the picture when dealing with people who don't want to change. Accommodating Food Allergies isn't on top of peoples lists of things to be thrilled about. Somehow everyone's child has a god given right to a peanut butter sandwich. I don't think for one minute that everyone is going to be nice about what we have put in place for the coming school year. I know people will be pi$$ed off -- including my neighbor across the street whose daughter has been in my son's classes the past two years. I've gotten an earful of opinion, her fishing expeditions to find out what we are trying to get as accommmodations. There are many things that aren't legal -- but we also don't want to turn our lives into a daily battle, daily litigation. There is only so much we are willing to do -- so far we are willing to go. Knowing that you have to fight day in and day out -- and with people who might screw you with a technicality -- well, it is something to keep in mind. At least, in my opinion.[/b]

Oh. Lord.

Don't ya know that a child would need to go through a long evaluation process that would [i]qualify[/i] them for such classes?? They don't let just anybody in. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] (at least how I understand it and from my own *unique* situation)

Oh, wait, you told me your child was[b]n't[/b] in "special education" classes......

Or, are you referring to classes that have a large population of "Food Allergic" children, but are a "regular education" classroom none-the-less? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 11, 2006).]

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By Gail W on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:08

I understand MommaBear to be saying that it's unlikely a school would retaliate by placing a child who did not *need* "Special Ed" services in a "Special Ed" classroom . . in part, because these services are highly valued and coveted. I think MB might be saying that it isn't "punishment" at all . . .?

But I understand the fear. Definitely. I hope by sharing my story I made that clear.

I think what everyone here shares is the belief that an appropriate assessment of our child's needs must be made by the school. . . and then those needs (unique or not) need to be met by the school.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:10

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]
No offense taken. And you are right, my son hasn't been in a special ed class. There is one special ed class at his school -- and while I realize that not all special ed classes fit into the stereotype, this one does. You always talk about your own unique, individualized situation -- well, is it possible for you to step outside of your own unique situation, and see that elsewhere in this country there are still those stereotypical special ed classes. [/b]

Are you saying MY school district is more progressive than your own?? I mean, despite the fact they don't pass out "class lists" with phone numbers and addresses. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Anywhoooo, from my perspective, the "special ed" class exists [i]wherever the child is placed[/i]. Even in a "regular" (or "gifted" for that matter) education classroom. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] And especially NOT in the minds of those freaked out by the mere mention of it.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:15

Quote:Originally posted by Gail W:
[b]I understand MommaBear to be saying that it's unlikely a school would retaliate by placing a child who did not *need* "Special Ed" services in a "Special Ed" classroom . . in part, because these services are highly valued and coveted. I think MB might be saying that it isn't "punishment" at all . . .?[/b]

absolutely. and hey, right now, I probably couldn't think of anything more fascinating to watch than a school district brought before a Due Process hearing trying to substantiate the need to place a child in a "Special Education" Anything without the [i]documentation[/i] to back it up. Let alone a *proper* evaluation, full case study, not limited in scope a KWIM? But I digress........and my creative streak would benefit from some inspiration. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:[b]I think what everyone here shares is the belief that an appropriate assessment of our child's needs must be made by the school. . . and then those needs (unique or not) need to be met by the school.

[/b]

absolutely.

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By gvmom on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:17

[b]Oh. Lord.[/b]

I think the same thing sometimes -- 'cept the Lord part is different, but same sentiment without the religiosity - just an expletive.

[b]Don't ya know that a child would need to go through a long evaluation process that would qualify them for such classes?? They don't let just anybody in. (at least how I understand it and from my own *unique* situation)[/b]

Yes, I know that there is a long evaluation. I got the paperwork. Lots of it. Pretty long process -- but I didn't overlook the possibility of someone who isn't interested in designating my child, wanting to put us through it because they could. Maybe you've been lucky enough in life, not to have very many people who would fu&* with you cause they had the ability to do so.

[b]Oh, wait, you told me your child wasn't in "special education" classes......[/b]

Glad you at least read the post.......

[b]Or, are you referring to classes that have a large population of "Food Allergic" children, but are a "regular education" classroom none-the-less?[/b]

I have a comment for this, but I save those types of things for 'OFF Topic'.

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By Gail W on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:18

I feel I'm about to get bashed. . . but I need to get this out. I feel where MB is coming from. [i]I think[/i].

I've posted often that Mariah is also LD, and she has an IEP for it. I'm trying to figure out my feelings right now, and it [i]hurts and offends[/i] *me*, personally, that it might be considered "punishment" or "retaliation" for another child to be "placed" in a classroom with her.

Now, that said, she isn't in a "Special Ed" classroom because they don't exist in our school.

And that said, she's also in the "gifted" program, and there is a special, designated classroom for it . . . one which other parents ARE elbowing one another to get their kids into.

Labels. Stereotypes. They exist and are real. No doubt.

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By TeddyAlly on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:26

Didnt mean to offend MB and I am sorry if I have. I am just trying to state what my worries were (crime?) Our school does have several special education classes for children with learning disabilities and I am glad that they do for those who need it. All I am saying is that I dont want my child who doesnt need special classes for children with learning disabilites to be placed in special classes due to her allergy...that is all I am saying. And if it can happen with 504, then I want no part of it. I dont want her pa/ta statue to hold back her education level, learning ability, or being with her classmates in the least. This thread is about 504 and questions, right? I was just wondering about 504, disability status and Special Education...dont mean to offend anyone! And lables are words to discribe things...how are we supposed to get our question asked if you have no idea what we are talking about ('Special Ed''Gifted'..isnt PA a lable)?

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 11, 2006).]

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By gvmom on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:27

[b]I understand MommaBear to be saying that it's unlikely a school would retaliate by placing a child who did not *need* "Special Ed" services in a "Special Ed" classroom . . in part, because these services are highly valued and coveted. I think MB might be saying that it isn't "punishment" at all . . .?[/b]

Key word is unlikely. Life can be made difficult. Again, maybe everyone here has had a walk in the park with all the administration they've dealt with, teachers their kids have had and parents of students. It must be great. For me, unlikely still indicates possibility. The same arguements could be thrown back as a reason to deny accommodations for FA's. It is unlikely that your child will have a reaction -- but many of us want the 504 because of the possibility. It is unlikely they'll try to make your life he!!, but it is a possibility. I get, it isn't punishment to be in a special ed class -- do I need to write it on a chalkboard til my face turns blue or what? Frankly, this type of dialogue being taken as an indictment on special educations, is a good example of how people needle each other over technicalities. The need to be right must be a genetic thing.

[b]Are you saying MY school district is more progressive than your own?? I mean, despite the fact they don't pass out "class lists" with phone numbers and addresses[/b]

It very well might be. It probably is. So what? Does it do something for you if your school district is more progressive? To me, it is great if there are school districts out there that are progressive. Kudos to them. I'm stuck with mine though, and the people in it.

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By Gail W on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:32

Helen, I know you don't mean to offend me or anyone. Nor me, you. But it [i]can [/i]hurt. That's my point. I wanted to share that because I hope others will try to understand that. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Your questions are absolutely valid, and I admire you asking them. Keep asking them. Please.

I seem to agree with all sides here. Or at least I feel that I've experienced both sides. I guess I'm just trying to shed some light on perspectives, that's all.

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By Gail W on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:35

Quote:Originally posted by TeddyAlly:
[b]All I am saying is that I dont want my child who doesnt need special classes for children with learning disabilites to be placed in special classes due to her allergy... And if it can happen with 504, then I want no part of it. I dont want her pa/ta statue to hold back her education level, learning ability, or being with her classmates in the least. [/b]

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I agree 100%.

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By Corvallis Mom on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:38

I also think that it is at least possible that medical 504 kids (FA, diabetes) could be pulled into SpEd pullouts for the specific reasoning that it provides (for the school district anyway) an environment which is more tightly controlled to begin with, and is often smaller with higher teacher:student ratios.

I also agree that it can be punishment for [i]any[/i] student to be placed in an environment which is unduly restrictive. No matter how you label the child.

But really-- look at it this way. If you pursue a 504, aren't these kinds of things actually slightly [i]less[/i] likely to occur? I mean, because there is a legally enforcable paper trail behind any retaliation that might rear its head. Without a 504, are such things really [i]less[/i] likely to happen in such a negative environment?

I mean, if the SD in question is willing to engage in that kind of behavior with a legally protected student, what makes you think it will be less likely to happen if the student in question is only identified "informally?"

Don't be afraid of the SpEd label-- all children with special needs in an educational setting are technically "SpEd," but it certainly doesn't mean they are all held in some kind of "holding pen" or anything. Sheesh.

There are two stereotypes worth fighting-- one for yourself and one for the outside world's view. The one battle you have to wage with yourself is to admit that your child is, in fact, "disabled." Nobody likes that word. My daughter is not flawed, dammit... but she is disabled under the law. Parents of diabetic children fight these same internal battles. But you have to come to peace with that one, or you will never be able to successfully advocate for your child. Why?

Because battle number two is with old-time school administrators and teachers who refuse to think of a FA/diabetes/asthma as a "disability," which warrants protection under the law. After all-- this law is to protect kids with really severe limitations. Kids with CP and severe RA. Kids with cancer and AIDS. 'You just want your kid to get "special treatment" you nut-job....' To combat this attitude, you need to understand and embrace how disability law applies to your child and why. This way you can effectively explain why such protections are genuinely [i]needed[/i] for your apparently healthy, 'normal' kid.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/redface.gif[/img] (Stepping down from soapbox...)

Personally? I prefer the term "medically fragile," because I feel it very accurately describes my child and commands the proper respect for her needs with others. Without using the D-word. (Disabled) But under the law, the D-word is the one that counts. Don't fear it.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:44

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b] Maybe you've been lucky enough in life, not to have very many people who would fu&* with you cause they had the ability to do so. [/b]

I'm surprised [i]you[/i], of all people, assume this. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] It is incorrect, by the way. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Quote:[b]
Glad you at least read the post.......[/b]

oar just sarprized i kun read? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

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By TeddyAlly on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:46

Thanks Gail. And again, I am sorry if I offended anyone. Hey, I have a label...I am disabled. I have a spinal injury and there are many physical activities that I cannot do. Just had back surgery in mid May and not feeling benefit from it. I know how it feels to have a lable, I have to deal with mine every time I step out of the house, "What happened to your back?" I too have a disability hearing...mine is next Monday. It is very hard to get some disability recognized while others come so easy from others to determine (people pointing and staring at the devise on my back). With that said, I dont want to have to go thru all the **** that I have had to go thru trying to get the help that I NEED. I am sure it is a different process. I want to do what is best for her, but with 504, it is hard to tell if it is best for her and that is why I am still looking into it. So feel free to point and snicker at my 'disability' lable. I guess I get a little blunt about things and mostly because I like to get my questions out there without a lot of beating around the bush so to speak...sorry if I offened! Not intentional!

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:48

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b]I also think that it is at least possible that medical 504 kids (FA, diabetes) could be pulled into SpEd pullouts for the specific reasoning that it provides (for the school district anyway) an environment which is more tightly controlled to begin with, and is often smaller with higher teacher:student ratios.

[/b]

show me on a [i]designation[/i] form where this is possible.

Oh, wait, I don't know if a [i]504[/i] has a designation form like the one I'm used to. I know that in *my* [i]IEP[/i], there were lots of boxes to check. To qualify, to sort, to [i]determine[/i] what setting is appropriate. It's not something you just choose. Out of convienience, I mean. And even if you qualify, a parent/guardians consent is necessary. But hey, maybe that is just me. My IDEA. But I was under the impression it was a federal law. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I could be wrong.

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited July 11, 2006).]

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:49

I mean, [b]LEAST RESTRICTIVE ENVIRONMENT[/b]. Not the [b]MOST CONVIENIENT ENVIRONMENT[/b]. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:54

Quote:Originally posted by gvmom:
[b]

Life can be made difficult. [/b]

You are preaching to the choir. We all have our gifts, I guess. So I won't let your singing surprise me. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:[b]Again, maybe everyone here has had a walk in the park with all the administration they've dealt with, teachers their kids have had and parents of students. It must be great.[/b]

Whodawhat??!

WhatyoutalkinaboutWillis???

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 19:57

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b] I mean, if the SD in question is willing to engage in that kind of behavior with a legally protected student, what makes you think it will be less likely to happen if the student in question is only identified "informally?"

Don't be afraid of the SpEd label-- all children with special needs in an educational setting are technically "SpEd," but it certainly doesn't mean they are all held in some kind of "holding pen" or anything. Sheesh.

There are two stereotypes worth fighting-- one for yourself and one for the outside world's view. The one battle you have to wage with yourself is to admit that your child is, in fact, "disabled." Nobody likes that word. My daughter is not flawed, dammit... but she is disabled under the law. Parents of diabetic children fight these same internal battles. But you have to come to peace with that one, or you will never be able to successfully advocate for your child. Why?

Because battle number two is with old-time school administrators and teachers who refuse to think of a FA/diabetes/asthma as a "disability," which warrants protection under the law. After all-- this law is to protect kids with really severe limitations. Kids with CP and severe RA. Kids with cancer and AIDS. 'You just want your kid to get "special treatment" you nut-job....' To combat this attitude, you need to understand and embrace how disability law applies to your child and why. This way you can effectively explain why such protections are genuinely [i]needed[/i] for your apparently healthy, 'normal' kid.

[/b]

worth repeating. and definitely a subject worth confronting in a thread like this.

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By Gail W on Tue, 07-11-06, 20:15

I wanted to highlight this section because I really agree:

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b]I also agree that it can be punishment for [i]any[/i] student to be placed in an environment which is unduly restrictive. No matter how you label the child.

But really-- look at it this way. If you pursue a 504, aren't these kinds of things actually slightly [i]less[/i] likely to occur? I mean, because there is a legally enforcable paper trail behind any retaliation that might rear its head. Without a 504, are such things really [i]less[/i] likely to happen in such a negative environment?

I mean, if the SD in question is willing to engage in that kind of behavior with a legally protected student, what makes you think it will be less likely to happen if the student in question is only identified "informally?"[/b]

That sorta reminds me of [b]Myth #5:

[i]If a School District is really resistant to a 504 Designation, the fight might not be worth it.[/b]

I almost think the exact opposite is true: if your School District is resistant to considering a Section 504 for your child, consider it a red flag. I think that if your SD is reluctant or outright objects to a Section 504 designation for your child, then you will encounter problems down the road no matter what. You need to ask yourself: why is the School District not wanting to be accountable?[/i]

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By Corvallis Mom on Tue, 07-11-06, 20:18

Quote:Originally posted by MommaBear:
[b] show me on a [i]designation[/i] form where this is possible.

Oh, wait, I don't know if a [i]504[/i] has a designation form like the one I'm used to. [/b]

Yes, it does.... but we all know that "least restrictive" can often pose as it's less well-recognized sibling "most convenient for [i]us[/i]..." especially when dealing with an uncooperative SD. Not that it is legal, but with particularly cantakerous administrators, that doesn't necessarily stop them from trying.

(Passive-aggressive technique...) The idea being that they can present it to you as an appropriate solution to everyone's problems... and when you as a parent don't concur, WHOA! Look who isn't being cooperative all of a sudden? Who's the problem [i]now?[/i] KWIM?

I [i]do[/i] think that requesting a 504 has the potential to open you up for this sort of thing. (shrug) You are probably correct to suggest that they couldn't move a non-LD child into a class specifically designed to handle LDs without a documentable reason... but that might not stop them from moving your child somewhere inappropriate that [i]doesn't[/i] require documentation. Whatever they feel like calling it.

On another note, however, I really think that it is a mistake to [i]assume[/i] that your SD is looking to establish an adversarial relationship with us as parents. As long as you and your allergist both understand why you need a 504, all [i]should[/i] be well.
[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

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By TeddyAlly on Tue, 07-11-06, 20:27

Question,if I may, the place I should start with the 504 is dd's allergist? Sorry, I just really dont know where to start. I know what I want, what I expect, I have papers like the papers you all have sent links to, I just dont know where to take the papers and my expectations.

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

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By Corvallis Mom on Tue, 07-11-06, 20:38

I think the best way to approach it is to find out how much your allergist knows about 504 and FA/asthma. If he/she has never heard of it, you will need to provide him/her with educational materials to get started with. Don't ask for more until you are sure that your allergist is comfortable with what you are asking for.

The rest will depend upon your own relationship with your doctor. (ie-- do you write a letter for him to photocopy and sign, or do you hope she can do a good job with some pointed advice, etc...)

I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised. And if you get a really terribly vibe-- nothing lost. Your SD won't know and you can find an allergist who knows more about FA.

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

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By Gail W on Tue, 07-11-06, 20:47

Helen, there's some great advice here: [url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001705.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/001705.html[/url] Gail

IMO it's wise to stay in 'research mode' for a long time and get your ducks in a row (including having your allergist on board with his specifically worded letter ) before even approaching the school.

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By TeddyAlly on Tue, 07-11-06, 20:48

Thank you so much! We recently changed allergists so the one we have is new to us, but recommended to us by about 4 other moms of children with outdoor allergies and asthma. I have met with him 2ce around the end of the school year. I will get with him on it. Thank you again. You have all been a huge help with info that we can all use.

Gail, will do! Dont want to jump into anything that I am not totally on-board with. Thanks!

------------------
Helen
Mom to Alyssa (PA, age 6)
Mom to Theodore (age 3)

[This message has been edited by TeddyAlly (edited July 11, 2006).]

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By gvmom on Tue, 07-11-06, 21:25

[b]And even if you qualify, a parent/guardians consent is necessary. But hey, maybe that is just me. My IDEA. But I was under the impression it was a federal law. I could be wrong[/b]

Where does Child Find fit into all of that? Can it be taken out of your hands with that facet of the ADA?

Also,

[b][i]Originally posted by gvmom:
Maybe you've been lucky enough in life, not to have very many people who would fu&* with you cause they had the ability to do so. [/b][/i]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[b]I'm surprised you, of all people, assume this. It is incorrect, by the way.[/b]

I don't assume it. From what you have posted in the past, you of all people would be someone I would assume would have plenty of experience understanding people's ability to fu&* with you cause they could. You surprised me using the notion that it would be unlikely. Don't we all love statistics around here? Weren't you the one that wasn't a gambling woman? Or are you choosing ponies with Vharlow?

How many of us have learned that with our children, making assumptions about the kindness of others could be deadly? I am not goint to leave it out of the realm of possibility if it falls into the unlikely category -- especially if it is with my children's FA's. Most people do the right thing, but to count on that would be foolish.

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By MommaBear on Tue, 07-11-06, 21:27

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b]

(Passive-aggressive technique...) The idea being that they can present it to you as an appropriate solution to everyone's problems... and when you as a parent don't concur, WHOA! Look who isn't being cooperative all of a sudden? Who's the problem [i]now?[/i] KWIM?

[/b]

LOL. No, I don't. (Remember, [i]I'm a pompous beotch[/i].) I have stones. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] Well, at least it's been said I reason like I have a male brain.) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

I mean, I'm willing to go to the mat, I've been to the mat, and I took home the belt. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img] Actually, I didn't have to take them to the mat, I just presented them with my [i]rationale[/i]. Logic. Perseverative pomposity (<> ).

I didn't even have an attorney. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img] Maybe it's just me. But hey, it's been said I'm the annoying type. And a bit passive-aggressive. [i]Innocent[/i], even. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/cool.gif[/img]

Obnoxious.

I also picked out some great nail polish and lipstick in a wicked [i]Red[/i].

Of course, I had to be able to see [b]The Big Picture[/b] (or at least a glimpse of it). Despite my own individual, unique, highly personal situation.

kwIm?

Again, no advice, it could all just be luck. Or my obnoxious nature. Pomposity (hey, I like that). Beotchyness. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/tongue.gif[/img]

General Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form. Absolutely not. Individual Mileage May Vary. I mean, I still tinker with the idea of obtaining a lawyer. Just because, I mean.

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