making camp/schools be peanut free and the law

Hi,

What US legal channels are you referring to?
Not that I am trying to discourage anyone from challenging them, but most of what I have read regarding "laws" have large enough loopholes in them to fit a whale through.

I'm curious about Canadian camps & schools being peanut free since I've read posts here by Canadians whose PA child has had a reaction at school. Is this only in certain parts of Canada that it is a law or only in certain parts of Canada that it is enforced?

Good luck.

The trouble is that in the US, there is economic, social, and extreme political pressure NOT to do this. (Remember, the federal government here also subsidizes pn growers [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) It is fighting the sense of personal "freedom" that indignant Americans seem to demand to even bring it up.... *sigh* I encourage any effort to try, obviously, but I doubt you will get anywhere. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

Corvallis Mom,

I posted in another thread:

""The following is ONLY MY OPINION, AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS NECESSARILY FACT.

The U.S. has a love affair with not peanuts, but liberty, individual freedom, and personal expression-------and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. It is, to a great extent, what this country was founded on, and I *personally* would not have had it any other way. The irony is that while espousing these traits, and understanding the acceptance and tolerance that practicing them should give us for each other, is that it creates a lot of conflict, defensiveness, and division. Despite the recent infringements on many key liberties (that is all I will say) our country was founded on, we are still pretty much a "Me" oriented society. We should "Just Do It", and "Have it Our Way". As well as "Customize" just about anything and everthing. If something doesn't have an option within an option, it musn't be good enough. Just about every place I enter these days has a "Mission Statement", "List of (you fill in the blank)__________ Rights", and general air indicative of each of us being the absolute center of the universe. Mind sets that allow us to get in touch with our "Center" (ewe, yuck!) and fullfill our "Inner Child" (and I cannot say much about childlike behavior) have taken the place of "The Golden Rule". Maybe that is where the original focus got derailed. Liberty, individual freedom, and personal expression are no longer qualified under the "Golden Rule" as much, if at all, as they are under "How Does This Benefit Me?". As a country, I *personally* believe there is little indication that we truly understand that much of what we have and the standard of living we enjoy is dependent on a world of misery we have little, if any interest in, besides what benefit it is to us. However, I do hold hope that it is never too late for us to realize that what goes around eventually comes around, or at least gets stepped in. Again, just my *personal* opinion and nothing more.

MommaBear"

[img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Hi Cadogan,

I hope you will answer my questions so that I can have a bit more information as to what you are thinking or possibly read, etc. The "laws" you may be referring to could be different from what I have read and vice versa.

cadogan, welcome! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I beg to differ with this statement of yours, which I have to admit, as a Canadian, I found SHOCKING:-

we are coming from canada where all schools and
camps must be peanut free- it's the law.

What part of Canada are you coming from? I'm in Ontario. It is not the law here in Ontario that all schools must be peanut free.
We do have the *right* under the Ministry of Education Act and policy re anaphylaxis in the schools to a "peanut free" CLASSROOM for our PA child, but that's it!

And camps being peanut free by law as well?
I'm sorry. That is NOT true. Only last summer my son was denied access to a day camp here in Ontario because of his allergy.

In research being done in the Schools section of this board now, we are currently finding out that there are NO accommodations for PA children in the school system in Quebec and very little, if any, for PA children in the province of British Columbia.

I have yet to find ONE province in Canada whereby it says it is the LAW that schools and camps have to be "peanut free". If you could tell us which one it is, perhaps all of us that are having difficulties with our schools (or even those that aren't) in Canada, and all of our American friends will move en masse there.

I am sorry. Your statement was very broad but it was also totally false.

Even a written school plan in Ontario (and I suspect other parts of Canada) is not considered a legally binding document. It is considered a guideline.

I would be interested in knowing though what gave you the impression that this was THE LAW since you are obviously Canadian and you had to have gotten this knowledge from somewhere.
I'd like to actually address the person who totally mis-informed you.

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------

Thanks for responding, Cindy. Your questions were exactly what I was thinking when I saw the original post.

Although many camps and schools here in Ottawa are peanut free, I believe this is done through consideration of the safety of allergic children, not due to a law.

I would also be very interested in hearing where this information came from.

take care

deb

Cadogan,

You posted:

"it seems to me that there is a strong case in making state or federally funded places peanut free."

I agree.

When meeting to structure a 504 plan for my son (PA/NUTS), one accomodation that was agreed upon and swiftly implemented was the removal of PB sandwiches from the Federal Lunch program (brown-bag). Funny they did not seem the same need to reduce the risk by removing PB products from other areas. Ie: Treat Day provided to the class from the PTA.

Could it be that Federal Programs (or institutions, for that matter) that prove a hinderance to achieving compliance with Federal Laws, (ADA, 504 plans, reasonable accomodations), need to adapt in order to march in step with these Laws?

MommaBear

Deb O., thank-you. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] I know that there are peanut free schools in my small city, but I also know that my PA son doesn't attend one.
And I haven't heard of any law that would require his school to become peanut free. In fact, I have always heard that it is the principal's decision about whether a school is peanut free, peanut safe, reduce the risk, or nothing at all and there are certainly no laws in place.

Even when speaking with my lawyer about Jesse's written school plan, he said that it was not a legally binding document for the school or the school board but would be considered a guideline. He said that for me to get it to be considered a legally binding document would involve an arduous process with the school board, whereby in the end, the school board's lawyers would REFUSE to sign it (so again, not legal).

I do know that the Y here, their day camp is peanut free. However, as I stated in my earlier post, Jesse was denied admission to a day camp here last year solely because of his PA and because the day camp didn't know how to deal with it and were certainly not peanut free.

Again, very interested as to where this information came from. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img]

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------

It's not the law in Alberta, either!

Cadogan, despite the inaccuracy of your post, you did raise a valid question. How do you get something to become law? There has been a lot of discussion about this under the Schools section of the board.

I am not going to post again about what enormous steps we have to take simply to get policies in place province wide in Canada. And, being Canadian, I know nothing about American laws.

However, you might want to look at the Protocols thread running under Schools started by arachide where there has been much discussion by both American and Canadian members and see if there is anything helpful in there for you to now use in New York State.

The inaccuracy that you stated in your original post (well, only post so far) will be addressed by Canadian members, but as far as your actual question, a legitimate one (as all questions are here), your best advice will probably come from American members such as Momma Bear and Corvallis Mom (who have both posted above, that's why I mentioned their names) as they would know the American legal system better than a Canadian would.

I know the different steps I have to take with say my provincial government or my federal government. But, I've recently found that it's not something easy and it's not something you address with the government (who I presume to be the law makers) first.
You address it with schools, school boards and their personnel and then work up the food chain, so to speak. But, as I say, I'm really unclear as to how one does that in America, clearer about how to do it in Canada and I have to say it is an enormous, daunting task that would take a lot of organization and committment.

Although Canadian based, you may also want to take a look at a thread under Take Action started by Katiee about a bill for Protection for Anaphylactic Students in Ontario.

But again, I think American members will best help you with this one and probably a lot of them are wondering how to do the very same thing you're asking about.

I do have to say though, respectfully, that I think the Canadians that have posted so far would really like an answer (and actually deserve one, I believe) as to where the heck in Canada it is law to have peanut free camps and schools? I do tell you, we'll all be packing and heading to that province! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------

To answer your question, I've never used legal channels to "make" or "demand" that a camp or school be peanut free. My family & I do not find it necessary because "avoidance" has worked quite well for our dd & PA friends.

To me liberty, individual freedom & personal expression all equal "personal responsibility". I know, I know, I've been battered verbally for this, however I still think the same way. I want my daughter (as well as other PAs) to venture out into this big big world and not be afraid, but to be responsible and cautious wherever she goes. When I see her & her fellow girl scouts flip through the atlas while they discuss where they'd like their cookie $ to take them, I just excited because I know that all we have to do is save the $ and of course, learn how to keep my dd safe when we travel abroad.

The US becoming "peanut free" could lead a PA into believing that the only place that is safe is a "peanut free society". What a limitation one impose on oneself!

As a PA parent I am well aware of the amount of work that is involved in keeping a PA child safe, and all I can say is that "I accept it" just as I accept my diabetes. Granted, I have days when I'm so busy that I don't want to be bothered & I get very annoyed that I have to stop whatever I'm doing to check my blood, measure my food, inject insulin, blah, blah, blah. However, my dd's PA is not something that I feel that way about.

One thing positive I can say about PA is that it teaches people to be considerate & practice being considerate on a daily basis starting w/these young kids that will soon grow to be adults. Unfortunately, 9-11, in my opinion, did not & has not had the type of lasting impact that I have noticed in my dd's former classmates.

One last thing, my Mother still anguishes over "giving" me diabetes. I just keep telling her that God is the creator of all life & this is what God wants me to have. And there you have it, just another mother like all mothers whose strong maternal instincts tell her to remove all pain & suffering from her child even to the point of wanting to die in her child's place.

We all know that that cannot be done, so as my dd's mother I will do everything in my power to teach her to live life to its fullest by not allowing her PA to control her life!

Seven years ago, I went through a dark spell as the Tasmanian Devil---I blamed, cried, cussed & screamed at God for giving PA to my baby girl...whatever happened happened & now, I'm okay & we're all good to go anywhere & do just about everything!

Cadogan, best of luck with whatever you choose to do!

Good thing that "cadogan" the "Canadian" came on just in time so that "Lisa" could make a statement. Nice touch throwing in the blurb about diabetes. You wanna play that card as often as possible.

Shovel, shovel, shovel. Ugh! I think there are peanut chunks in that shit!

Hi River,

I had a feeling you'd show up because I suspected that you still did not "get it" about juvenile diabetes & their choice of using PB in the schools. I've never known a parent as a angry as you are about their child's PA. I'll pray for you.

In any case, I used "diabetes" as an indirect example of being "inconvenienced" by a disease or a health impairment or a disability. By the way, these are serious issues not card games.

Okay, so Cadogan is Canadian. However, Cadogan now resides in NY which is part of the US.

Again Cadogan, good luck w/whatever it is you choose to do!

[This message has been edited by LisaMcDowell (edited March 28, 2003).]

It must be so nice to be that confident in other people being able to keep your child safe. Personally, I won't count on children ensuring that my little one is safe and that they won't smear peanut butter on things around him. Aren't you worried about things like that. Also, even my own family has trouble "getting it" I don't know how I can just assume that everyone else does. As a country we do what we can to protect people in wheelchairs by giving them easier access why shouldn't we do the same to protect a child w/ a life threatening allergy. After all, there are many more choices than Peanut Butter to eat.

[This message has been edited by robinlp (edited March 28, 2003).]

If "peanut butter" is vital in schools for diabetic children could someone (God help me! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/eek.gif[/img] ) explain the "medical reasons" why?

I'm asking this because if it has to do with glucose or protein or something why not used soy nut butter or something similar as a substitute?

Just curious.

BTW, I live in Ottawa and there is no Canadian law that I am aware of which makes ALL schools, camps etc peanut free. This sounds fishy to me...anyone else notice that the original poster has only posted once....makes you wonder [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img].

Katiee

As much as I would like to put PA on a pedistool all it's own, I can't. Big Picture thing. I have *personally* found tunnel vision to be a big hinderence. I have also *personally* found solutions to items dear to heart in efforts I direct towards understanding and meeting the needs of others. It would behoove us to see the Commonalitites as well as the Peculiarities in attempting to problem solve.

[url="http://diabetes-in-america.s-3.com/adobe/chpt12.pdf"]http://diabetes-in-america.s-3.com/adobe/chpt12.pdf[/url]

I do believe it is possible to respect the needs of others while protecting our right to advocate on behalf of ourselves.

I personally feel that "divide and conquer" is a technique more often than not used to hinder our attempts, as parents of PA children, to provide a somewhat safe, if not reasonably as safe, environment for our children. [i]Individualized Plans,[/i] as opposed to plans that address needs algorithmically, and plans that are developed through the [i] collaboration [/i] of individuals who can offer experience, expertise, education, insight, and equally important......[i]credentials and qualification.[/i] One thing *personally* I have found a school to abhorr most of all in developing an [i] individualized plan [/i], is the consensus of two PA parents. Worse yet, [i]a license [/i] backing up specific recommendations. No wonder the nurse wasn't present at our 504 meeting. No wonder they tried to denigrate the validity of a letter signed our child's physician. [i] No wonder the school looked upon this particular mother of a PA child with apprehension and fear. [/i]

When a plan is developed by a parent, particularly a parent without professional license to back up requests, I can very well see the glee (and advantage) a school district might have in carefully spreading hushed whispers (or even outright accusations) of that parent having [i] unreasonable, unusual, unneeded [/i] requests. Afterall, they are obviously suffering from an extreme case of [i] overprotectiveness, are mis-informed, unreasonable, of need of psychiatric help, or possible example of Munchausen by Proxy. [b] (sarcasm most definitely intended)[/b] [/i] Or as arachide experienced, are told they must "sever the umbillical cord". [b] (sarcasm most definitely intended again)[/b]

The sooner we start concentrating on the [i] commonalities [/i] as well as the [i] peculiarities [/i] in PA, possibly give up a portion of control, maybe even be willing to tighten our comfort zones in order to offer a safe environment for others, (possibly offering a united front) the sooner I *personally* believe our situations and lot will improve. Dramatically.

As for the term "legally binding"...... I *personally* have found that many times what is legally binding is often at the discretion of the courts. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

MommaBear

Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post.

edit to add italics

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited March 28, 2003).]

Lisa, I am pleased for you that "avoidance" is sufficient for your child. It is certainly not enough for mine, as we have learned [i]the hard way[/i]. I think that your analogy to diabetes (type I, from your post?) has some very good points, but is a poor analogy in other respects. You will never suffer life-threatening consequences from the actions of ANOTHER person's personal choices. (Though you very well might from your own inattention/poor judgement, I agree.) Many of us on-site have had experiences with PA quite to the contrary of that. Diabetes is also quite well-recognized as a life-altering medical condition which requires constant attention.

As to your implication, katiee, if you were new to the boards, would [i]you[/i] have re-entered this thread after the first day??

Cadogan, if you are out there, most of the people on the board are NOT out to beat one another up over whatever gets posted. Please come back and know that you will be supported here. (lots of stong-willed people in here butt heads occasionally- but strength is also a good thing. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] )

edited for grammar/typos

[This message has been edited by Corvallis Mom (edited March 28, 2003).]

Wow...was that a slap??? [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/eek.gif[/img] ? I was simply questioning if the poster was in fact someone "known" (we all know who i mean becaue this gave her a forum to educate us all once again) to us but in disguise.

I was NOT suggesting that the poster (if he/she was in fact genuine) was a "bad" person for not responding. GEEEESH.

Just my very own personal opinion here not intended to offend, tick off or annoy anyone in particular. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Katiee

Kaitee,

you posted:

"Just my very own personal opinion here not intended to offend, tick off or annoy anyone in particular."

Good. Because that's my job. Unofficially.

MommaBear

Hi Robin,

Juvenile diabetics can eat crackers & cheese, etc to level their blood sugar, however some choose to use a fast acting tablespoon of PB...the parent & child make that choice because they live in the United States of America. We all have a right to live and to care for our body in the manner that we choose. If their option or anyone else's is uncomfortable, home schooling will alleviate these types of worries. However, if that is not a chosen alternative then there are some things we have to learn to live with.

Kelly & the other JDs go to the nurse's office to get their snack; handwashing is imperative before & after eating. They, in no way, are posing a threat to my dd or any other PA in this supervised area...the matter is handled appropriately.

Robin, it could also be that I have a different comfort level than you. Our goal is to open up the world for our dd, we do not want to restrict it by living in fear of every "what if". We cope w/every issue as it arises, and so far she has been reaction free for 7 years.

Is it best to dwell on the many ways a reaction can occur or is it best to learn how to prevent reactions to the best of one's ability. It all depends on one's coping skills, attitude toward PA, and how one chooses to live life. It would be a waste of my time to be angry or bitter or dwell on the negative or the "what ifs"...it would only be allowing PA to control my life & hers. I chose to let go of my fear by replacing it w/doing the best I can for her and by developing a positive attitude toward life.

All & all, what is it that is really being said here...that PA can be compared to anything & deemed to be a much more serious threat to life? That a ban is a "cure all" for PAs or is it for the peace of mind of the PA parent?

I pray that all can find some sort of "peace" w/PA.

Quote:Originally posted by LisaMcDowell:
[b]
Okay, so Cadogan is Canadian. However, Cadogan now resides in NY which is part of the US.
[/b]

Where did Cadogan say he/she lived in NY? It's not in the profile.....

just curious if I missed another post or something.

take care

deb

Quote:Originally posted by cadogan:
[b] i would like to see a similiar law implemented in new york. [/b]

Corvallis' Mom,

I may not "suffer" life threatening consequences because I do not have a pump, but I do know that one diabetic child had his tube partially ripped out by another child while at school, I call that "life threatening".

As for avoidance, "WE" are practice it in our way.

Sorry you did not like my analogy, however it doesn't seem that you like anything about me anyway. And that's okay too.

Corvallis Mom,

you posted:

"You will never suffer life-threatening consequences from the actions of ANOTHER person's personal choices."

Actually, in some cases, if activity level is not adjusted, gym class for example, and opportunities for a diabetic are not made available to monitor glucose levels for example, or administer medications if necessary for example, or eat (in addition to regularly scheduled food breaks)for example......... I guess the actions, or lack thereof, of others (namely adults in charge of a child) [i] could be life threatening. [/i] Quite possibly, a small child may need appropriate help in implementing these tasks. Again, here, the actions or lack thereof may prove to be life threatening for a diabetic.

Please don't take this as critisism, as it is not intended to be.

MommaBear

edit to add italics

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited March 28, 2003).]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me, with regard to diabetics, why it has to be peanut butter? Why not soy nut butter?

Katiee

Katiee,

why not just have the diabetic child eat the pb supervised in an area designated "safe" to do so? Of course, the child can brush their teeth and wash their hands? As a parent, I don't expect to have that much control over another parent's child or that child's [i]medical condition. [/i]

Similarly, I don't have that much control over the rest of the population.

Personally, I think a child who eats the PB in such a situation is probably "safer" than one who eats it for breakfast before comming to school and doesn't brush their teeth, wash their hands, or have a person knowledgeable about PA supervising the eating of PB (with regards to contaminating objects).

What if someone is allergic to soy?

MommaBear

Ok..here goes. I was not stating that I felt that it could NOT be peanut butter, I simply want to know from a medical standpoint why it HAS to be peanut butter and not something else like soy nut butter or sun butter?

It there something in peanut butter not found in something else that is better for a diabetic diet?

Just curious and looking for alternatives.

Katiee

[This message has been edited by katiee (edited March 28, 2003).]

Giving as good as we would like to get.

Katiee,

you posted:

"It there something in peanut butter not found in something else that is better for a diabetic diet?"

Yes, it's called: "Offering someone who may quite possibly already have extreme difficulty managing a life-threatening condition the possibility of some personal choice, without any further complications than they may already be experiencing."

Ie: Not making a difficult situation any more difficult to manage. Especially when you consider the scope of complications a diabetic may encounter. Again, you did not state if you found anything really that wrong with the method of managing a diabetic eating PB in the manner previously described?

This may prove to be very true when dealing with a child (as well as an adult).

MommaBear

My DD has been to several day camps and a couple of overnight camps and I think we all know for sure that in Canada there is no law about schools or camps being peanut-free. It took a lot of looking and visits to find a suitable camp, believe me.

I'm really puzzled about the peanut butter quick fix for a diabetic reaction. I have two nephews who have Type I diabetes and here is the list their mother gave me that the Canadian Diabetes Assn recommends for reactions"

2 or 3 glucose tablets
1/2 cup (4 ounces) of any fruit juice
1/2 cup (4 ounces) of a regular (not diet) soft drink
1 cup (8 ounces) of milk
5 or 6 pieces of hard candy
1 or 2 teaspoons of sugar or honey

Their mother also has used sweet pickles or jam in an emergency. She has never used PB and has never heard of anyone who has. It may be an alternative source, but it's obviously not the BEST choice for a reaction.

Just curious about the source of PB as a necessity for diabetic/insulin reaction.

Linda

Lisa,
I think its great that your child has not had a reaction in 7 years. Maybe this is why you've been able to let go of your fear? Many of us have not even been able to go 7 weeks without a reaction. And speaking for myself, I know its not because of neglecting to inform my child. She understands the seriousness and knows that she is to put nothing in her mouth that has not been sent by me. She washes her hands several times a day, uses anti-bacterial wipes through out the day, strives to not put her hands near her face, but still she has had 7 reactions at school during november and December (one of which was very serious). So I do have fear, every day, when I send her to school.
I desperately want my child to live in a world where she is not afraid too, but right now it does have to be a focus in our lives. As much as she is informed, cautious and responsible, "avoidance" has not worked well for us. For me its not a matter of being negative or bitter...its reality!
No, I don't feel that a ban is a cure-all and it doesn't take away my responsibility, but right now in my own case I consider it necessary. I am thankful that school administrators have seen the need as well in my dd's case. I don't know, maybe I'd feel safer if dd could go 7 years wo a reaction (or even 7 weeks for that matter).

Still waiting for an answer.... figuring I am not likely to get one. It was an honest question.

Thank you Linda for your information. Maybe I should direct my question to the CDA, I think that I would be more likely to receive an answer.

I have to say Mommabear, I kind of resent your tone. I don't look at this as a competition as to what condition is the worst here. I'm simply wondering if there are similar (food) alternatives to having peanut butter around children who could suffer a life threatening reaction if exposed to it. As the parent of a child who had a life threatening "airborne" anaphylactic reaction maybe I have a different perspective. It's not a case of my rights over your rights to me, it's a case of plain old common sense.

Katiee

Katiee- I was definitely NOT targeting your post in particular as the beginning of contention in this thread- just suggesting an alternative explanation for why we had just seen the one post from the initiator. (Sorry it came out that way!) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

MB- no offense taken. (Besides-I thought poor tact was my official designation... maybe there's more than one of us! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img])

BTW, Lisa? I deeply resent any assertion that I am either poorly educated or insensitive to the needs of Type 1 diabetics. A partner of 10 yrs died of diabetes complications at age 37, and a good friend of my DH and I is Type 1 (well controlled) so I think I have a pretty good perspective about it. Because of my partner's parents, I had contact with a lot of different diabetics and their families- they headed their local ADA chapter and spearheaded a lot of fundraising efforts. There were very few restrictions to our lifestyle, though it was definitely not convenient or pleasant to maintain good control of the disease. I was merely suggesting that comparing it to PA was good in some respects (as in the constant attention and planning both require) but not so good in others (A diabetic has the ability to have full control of their own disease much of the time via their own actions- obviously not the case for young children, in which case they must rely on the adults around them to help them). That is ALL. Because of the constant public spotlight over the past 30 yrs, juvenile diabetes is MUCH better recieved and understood than PA by the public. PA tends to get labeled as an urban myth, quite honestly.

It utterly unclear to me why you took my remark as a personal attack of any kind. I also feel that requesting accomodations for PA is not out of line, even though you may feel that it isn't necessary for your own situation. That is wonderful -for you. Lack of such accomodations is not so wonderful for some of us. (That was my point.) My own child (until something changes substantially) is at the mercy of other airline passengers, her schoolmates, the overly friendly cookie-munching tot at the library, and anyone who fed their kid while sitting in my shopping cart. It is not just imagination, either- my daughter has frequent reactions, which are frightening to my whole family. These are just not the things that one has to worry about with a diabetic child- not that the worries are FEWER, but you have more control over a lot of factors.

(Geez, guys, I can be a lot more abrasive when I try!!! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] )

I am also a mother of a child who is "airborne" sensitive. Not only with regards to PA, but many legumes, and nuts. It starts with uncontrolled projectile vommiting in my son's case.

I still do not see why I have to take away choice from a child with diabetes, if the PB is eaten in a controlled environment and certain precautions to prohibit cross contamination are in place. Do you?

Maybe you don't realize that emphasizing the possibility that diet *will* offer some choices and not be *impossibly* restricting is part of a diabetic accepting their condition and therefore being able to effectively manage it. It is, in my opinion, very connected to survival. You may not realize it, but you "resent the tone" of a person whose relatively "young" (age 52) cousin is now awaiting kidney transplant, recently suffered a stroke resulting in a year long rehabilitation period, and is now laying in an intensive care unit, on respiratory support (not the first time), after cardiac arrest and suffering a massive MI. Aside from a history of being vibrant personality, and woman magnet, he is a brittle diabetic and has suffered greatly through the years due to an inability to number one: Accept his diabetes, and number two: Effectively manage it. Go Figure. What do I know? I may add that his father is 84 and doing far better than him (aside from kidney dialysis as a result of his diabetes despite good management). Resenting my tone doesn't change this. I also feel that my tone was quite generous. Innuendo, huh?

MommaBear

Quote:Originally posted by Corvallis Mom:
[b]

MB- no offense taken. (Besides-I thought poor tact was my official designation... maybe there's more than one of us! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img])

[/b]

"EVIL TWINS!!!!!!" [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/biggrin.gif[/img]

Did anybody hear me bash diabetics? I get the feeling that no matter what I say, it will somehow be completely distorted.

Offering choices is a good thing, offering choices that do not put another persons life in danger is a better thing.

Personally, I would prefer that the children in my son's class eat their peanut butter before school because we have implemented supervised hand washing procedures in class. We also have a no "may contain" foods policy in the classrooms that have PA children. I still beleive that peanut butter has no place in a school that has PA students. My "own" personal belief ...period.

I give up!

Katiee

Quote:Originally posted by katiee:
[b]Still waiting for an answer.... figuring I am not likely to get one. It was an honest question.

Katiee[/b]

I think I have made several valid attempts to provide you with an answer that provides some insight into the "rationale" behind letting a diabetic manage their diabetes with a small portion of PB, under controlled circumstances. No?

MommaBear

Katiee,

You posted:

"Offering choices is a good thing, offering choices that do not put another persons life in danger is a better thing."

If offering a tablespoon of PB in a controlled environment away from PA children with certain precautions in place to prevent cross contamination and even taking precautions that require a child to brush their teeth afterwards endangers my son's life (PA--airborne sensitive)?,

than what on earth am I doing letting my son leave the safety and security of his own home??? (sarcasm intended as I do not want anyone to think I don't allow my son outside the front door)

Do we think there are no children who come to school after eating PB DON'T brush their teeth? (Or wash their hands)

And....... Do you still not realize that teaching a diabetic by example there ARE choices in their diet (possibly from a young age) is a valid need to successful management? A need that is equally life threatening if not met? Or are life threatening needs only defined within the scope of PA? (Absolutely trying to maintain an acceptable tone)

MommaBear

Well, this is quite the strange thread, veering off in all different directions and it really doesn't need my one cent American added further, but still.... [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Momma Bear, I do agree that there *should* be standardized protocol regarding PA implemented in the schools. However, despite discussing it at great length here, I don't think anyone really understands the enormity of what we're talking about. I can't even begin to speak on behalf of my American friends who are unable to get their child through the door of a school without a doctor's note or whose children suddenly become liability risks to the school and are actually asked to leave. Again, I truly believe it has to start at a grassroots level and that's not an easy thing to do. It goes step by step in the school system and step by step in the government. It is an arduous, enormous, difficult task and while we may discuss it here, implementing something on this grand of a scale is going to take, IMHO, years of hard dedicated work by not just a select few PA parents that are interested in this particular *issue* (schools) but all PA parents. A very difficult thing.

That is why PA parents in America and more and more PA parents in Canada are choosing to have individualized school plans (504's etc.) implemented for their PA children. We are fortunate in Ontario in that we do have a basic policy re anaphylaxis in the schools.
The PA parents that I know of in Ontario that have written school plans for their children all have plans that adhere to school board policy.

Lisa, I'm not clear why you feel river is extremely angry that her son is PA. In none of her posts on this board would it suggest that she is. I am not even clear if she experiences your Tasmanian Devil phase when first finding out that her son was PA. I know that I sure as heck didn't. I've also known river off-the-board for three years and know, for a fact, that river is not angry about her son's PA. She deals with it and deals with it well.

What I can't figure out in your posts, about your daughter, her PA and her navigating through the world is that the only example you use is that your daughter is a Girl Scout (or Girl Guide). Do you think that you are the only PA parent that has a child involved in some extra-curricular activity? As I very well remember, I got you off-the-help advice and support from another friend of mine, rilira whose daughter is/was also a Girl Guide.

Being a Girl Guide or playing soccer or anything else that *normal* kids do, doesn't mean that you've done something extraordinary in preparing your PA child for the *real* peanut filled world. Do you think that the rest of us are simply sitting back in little bubbles not letting our children do anything simply because we do perhaps require a written school plan for them? We are all, to the best of our abilities, teaching our PA children to live in the real world. I'm just so unclear as to why you keep going back to the Girl Guide reference as if it is something outstanding. It isn't. It is common and common among PA parents.

I understand that you experience difficulties with the Girl Guides (or Scouts) re your daughter's PA (the one that sent you on a week long melt-down when you first posted on this board), and yes, you are teaching your PA daughter how to navigate through the world and showing her that yes, she can participate in extracurricular events. But again, what the heck do you think the rest of us are doing? Living in a bubble?

MommaBear, as far as Katiee's question re diabetes and the *need* for pb, I think another person posted why, in fact, a diabetic person would NOT need pb, but there are lots of alternatives. The analogy I will use is the one for protein. It is found in the Safe Snacks and Lunch List posted on this board. For parents concerned about the amount of protein their child may be missing by not being able to take pb into school (or a classroom), there is a whole list of other items that contain equivalent amounts or even more protein than pb and can be easily substituted. And again, someone did post to Katiee what could be substituted to a diabetic child where there is a PA child in the school (classroom).

For example, if there was a diabetic child in Jesse's class, they would not be able to get their pb. They would have to have a substitute and again, from that list posted above.

As far as the person who originally posted the question and has not returned to this thread, yes, many of us find this suspicious only because of the recent state of the board. And I also think that we Canadians find it suspicious because of the broad, absolutely false statement that was made in the original post. I don't know, perhaps that's it in a nutshell (pardon me). The person posted something that was downright false and is embarrassed to return. But we also know of other members who do post under different names for reasons other than their original UserName blipping out on them and I can understand why people would be suspicious.

There was something else said that was disconcerting, but I have to make dinner and it blipped out of my mind.

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------

Oh, this was it, sorry, Momma Bear, from you as well:-
As for the term "legally binding"...... I *personally* have found that
many times what is legally binding is often at the discretion of the
courts.

Now, as far as I understand it, my lawyer should know what would be legally binding at the discretion of the courts. Would he not?
At any rate, Jesse's written school plan is not considered legally binding, in my lawyer's opinion, and for me to get it to be considered so is virtually impossible, in my lawyer's opinion. Can't take that to court without a lawyer. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/confused.gif[/img]

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------

An excerpt I found interesting:

Scroll down to "MEAL PLANNING" in the link in this post.

"Nutrition therapy is one of the most challenging aspects of diabetes care. Diet-related issues are complex, requiring that the behavioral, functional, cognitive and socioeconomic aspects of the person be considered. In addition, cultural and religious customs play a significant role in a person's ability and desire to adhere to a recommended meal plan."

From: "Diabetes: Patient Teaching for Disease Management"

Link to full article/course:

[url="http://www.netce.com/course.asp?course=424"]http://www.netce.com/course.asp?course=424[/url]

Maybe it is a question of defining "needs". Life-threatening ones. It's not always a question of weather metabolically PB is the best choice. Needs are not always metabolic. I *personally* believe that Life-Threatening Needs are not always metabolic either.

Disclaimer: I do not guarantee the accuracy or content of the link in this post.

Maybe I can shed a little light on PB/diabetes management. For snacks, pb is a decent choice, since it has a balance of fats and protein to allow a slower rise in blood sugar and keep that blood sugar more stable over time (this would in fact be a reason why it might be preferable in a school setting).
For insulin shock (low blood glucose) immediate treatment would be needed, probably wherever the child was at the time (we of all people should understand that)so in my *somewhat* educated opinion, PB isn't likely to be used as a "rescue" food- as the other items listed were. (fond nostalgia) My partner used to carry a roll of butter rum lifesavers. He loved them, but only got to eat them when his BG crashed. High fructose/sucrose foods generally are for RESCUE rather than for maintaining stable blood glucose levels.
On the other hand, all diabetic kids probably need to be a LOT more cautious than other children about including any extremely high fat foods like PB as regular snacks. This is because weight control is also crucial to maintaining good control of your disease for a lifetime.

(All that stuff that I learned about how to help support a diabetic with a healthy lifestyle! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] )

While I understand (very very well)how important it is to diabetics to feel that they have control and choices about management, I have to also say as an aside that PB breath *terrifies* my 3yo. (It isn't even rational, I don't think- but she tends to look like a trapped animal when confronted with it.) What about the control that *she* would like to feel she has? (which I realize is probably not attainable....) It's a rhetorical question.

And (editing) just to stir the pot a little- I don't think river is particularly angry about PA.... but incidentally, I have run into A LOT of diabetics who were pretty angry about their lot in life too.... wouldn't be anyone we know, now would it Lisa? I'd offer to pray but that isn't my style. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

Thanks for your observations Cindy- that helps me to understand the assumptions about the thread starter. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Corvallis Mom (edited March 28, 2003).]

CSC,

you posted:

"Momma Bear, I do agree that there *should* be standardized protocol regarding PA implemented in the schools. However, despite discussing it at great length here, I don't think anyone really understands the enormity of what we're talking about."

Can you begin to list the variety of conditions, complications, and alterations in health, as well as "wellness" interventions hospitals deal with on a daily basis? Can you imagine the "enormity" of policy that has been created in a relatively short period of time by which, in the majority of cases, the healthcare industry successfully manages such things (or at least offers pallative care) and in many cicumstances it has been said of the same to (as posted on our "thank-you" board in the break area at my place of employment) "Work Miracles"?

PA, in my opinion would not be as difficult to create algorithmic policy for. Check out the "Mass. Document". In the introductory letter, it is indicated that one of the very reasons many informed, licensed, degreed, and experienced persons (parents) saw a need, came together and collaberated to produce the document was to:

Within the document in the preface letter (page 2, I believe) it states:

"To assist schools in developing and implementing policies and comprehensive protocols for the care of students with life-threatening food allergies, the Massachusetts Department of Education led a task force to develop this publication, "Managing Life-Threatening Food Allergies in Schools. The task force included recognized professionals in the area of food allergies, school physicians, school administration, school nutrition/food service directors, school nurses, teachers, and Department staff. This group has worked diligently over the past year to create a document that provides background information and practical application regarding life-threatening food allergies in schools."

~ From "Managing Life-Threatening Food Allergies in Schools"

[url="http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000907.html"]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum7/HTML/000907.html[/url]

With regards to a different issue and legal opinion:

Many times there is a defendant and a plaintiff. Many times there are lawyers on both sides equally convinced their clients are justified. Many times not all lawyers agree.

Recently children have died in PA related incidents. Were all these children covered by "legally binding" things? Are some of these cases in court? Are we, as a PA community interested in the outcomes of these cases?

As a nurse, if I am pulled into court as a defendant, or an expert witness.........

The question of "What would another reasonable, similiarly trained nurse have done?" most likely will be asked. Maybe because there is not always policy to cover such questions? Maybe since there is always room to "tweak" policy.? Maybe since there is no way to foresee every possible situation one might encounter (with regards to creating policy)? Maybe because there was nothing "Legally Binding" to reference?

Disclaimer: I am not offering advice in any manner or form.

Corvallis Mom,

I really, really, really, appreciate your reply.

Still, do you feel that the child who ate a small amount of PB under the "control precautions" indicated previously, would be safer than the most likely numerous children who eat PB in the morning before comming to school without, hand cleansing, brushing teeth afterwards, or without someone knowledgeable of PA monitoring them?

I have said before, Is there a point where a "disability" becomes "disabling" and where certain predetermined qualifications need to be met in order to be considered "disabled"? At that point, is it possible that irregardless of accomodations being made, even past the point of "reasonableness", and despite adjustments by those around the individual with a need, it is impossible to offer the level of equality (with regards to individual freedom) the "disabled" person desires?

Please do not take offense, as none is intended. Remember, My child and I are in the same life-raft as you. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img]

MommaBear

edit for typo

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited March 28, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by MommaBear (edited March 28, 2003).]

We may all be in the same life raft, but some of us prefer *paddling* over wasting time and energy splashing water at others -- or being splashed, for that matter.

I love a good debate. But I have a great distaste for poorly used bandwidth...

-Sue

Quote:Originally posted by M'smom:
[b]We may all be in the same life raft, but some of us prefer *paddling* over wasting time and energy splashing water at others -- or being splashed, for that matter.

I love a good debate. But I have a great distaste for poorly used bandwidth...

-Sue[/b]

Sue,

Last time I checked, I wasn't the only one in this post.......

Let the Bandwith gods speak.

If and when Chris at PA.com contacts me regarding my use of bandwith, I will adjust my future posts accordingly, or lack thereof.

TA-DA!!!! (curtsey with perfectly manicured red nails at a modest length wrapped delicately around some pretty awesome stemware-----thanks again, Cayley's Mom, for the suggestion!!!)

MommaBear

Momma Bear, excellent post about Massachsetts (sorry, the spelling is wrong on that one [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] ) [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] That is one state that has done something. How many states are there remaining that have to do something as comprehensive. And how many provinces/territories? And that only covers PA children/people in the U.S. and Canada.

I'm still not clear about the issue of bandwidth, although I know it was discussed last week. Does it mean that posts are supposed to be short? If so, I would be guilty of using the most bandwidth on this website. I haven't heard from Chris in this regard other than to "keep up the good work".

Best wishes! [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------

No offense taken, MB.

It was a rhetorical question, anyhoo. (I realize that is one of those mobius loops with no good solution.)

I *personally* feel that PA, (in this respect I feel it *is* like diabetes [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/wink.gif[/img] ) runs along a continuum... at one extreme it is clearly a "disability" which requires special accomodations. (Not all disabilities are "severe"- but they are substantially *limiting* to meet the definition.) At the other extreme, very few lifestyle changes are necessary or even desirable. This is precisely why some of us on this site object to the term and why others (like me) object when we are chastised for "wanting the world to change" for our kids. That makes me very angry because of the enormous modifications I already make all day every day to avoid confrontations about PA and to keep my child reasonably safe. Many people with PA navigate the "real world" with few, if any, special accomodations, that I know. I am very frankly envious of those people, because if I tried that for a week, my child would certainly suffer a major reaction and might very well die. At this web site, at least, I shouldn't feel like I need to explain that.

(Point taken Sue... clearly the original author is gone/intimidated and the thread is no longer about that.)

Cindy --
I didn't mean length.

It just seemed more civil than "Oh, put a sock in it..."

I've been here for a good three years (took me a while to register and post) -- and I've never been rude to another poster, before the above. But I took GREAT issue to Katiee being given flack, post after post, by MommaBear -- for a perfectly logical question. This is a *support* group, for pete's sake. I'm tired of the nonsense.

It's not about bandwidth -- and it's not about being in complete agreement with one another. It's about *kindness*.

-Sue

Edited to add:

Thanks, Shannon, for giving me the benefit of the doubt on this one. Nope, I was just being cranky. I would like PA.com to go back to being a safe place -- not free from debate, but free from sarcasm for sarcasm's sake.

-Sue

[This message has been edited by M'smom (edited March 28, 2003).]

M's Mom, although you mentioned bandwidth, I wasn't thinking that you were saying anything about me specifically. It just raised another question in my ever curious brain. Does bandwidth mean the length of posts?

I totally agree with your post. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img] It has been over two months since PA.com was the site that I joined three years ago as well.
I find it in a sad state of affairs these days, with a lot of regular members simply not posting at all or only posting for information purposes only. People aren't posting when they have something they need support with (I can't speak for *all* people) because they're afraid they'll get condemned for their concern about something others may see as stupid or they're afraid they'll be condemned for making a mistake. It really is sad. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]

I know that I do offer enter frays when my best advice to anyone is NOT to enter them.
So perhaps it's okay that I've been called emotionally dependent on the board (other members were as well - it was a general comment) and also asked why I needed everyone's approval all of the time.

I know that I'm not emotionally dependent on this board as far as dealing with my son's PA. Is it wrong to be emotionally dependent (it sounds like a psychiatric disorder) on this board when one is having difficulties with say the school and you have no one in your *real* life that you can share the experience with? I don't think so. I thought that was what PA.com was about. The sharing of not only information re PA but also support, caring, encouragement and concern for members when they're having difficulties.

Do I seek approval from others here? No. I don't like to be fighting with people, although, yes, I do do it [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] but what I think I do here is try to offer as best as what I get (not in terms of bickering and bantering but in terms of providing information, receiving support, encouragement, caring and concern).

Lately I've found that I've been posting less (that may surprise some people) and also posting less about personal situations re PA.
There is a group of us that are sharing experiences together so that we're not totally alone, but this only happened within the last month because of the state of this board. And again, I think that's sad. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img]

Katiee, I do still think, and after recognizing that the post where the person offered the substitutes to pb, with the explanations from Corvallis Mom and others, that you raised a very valid question that could actually be raised in regard to PA.

Your question since it does seem to have been lost and never really answered:-

If "peanut butter" is vital in schools for diabetic children could
someone (God help me! ) explain the "medical reasons" why?

I'm asking this because if it has to do with glucose or protein or
something why not used soy nut butter or something similar as a
substitute?

What happens if one day our PA children are also diabetic? Would soybutter or something similar be a substitute that is just as good?
Again, I'll use the protein analogy whereby there is a list of foods on this board that shows protein at least comparable to that in pb or even more.

I think it's a really valid question and I actually think it *should* be raised in a separate thread since this thread has, as a lot of threads tend to do on this board lately, veered totally off topic.

For example, even though Cadogan never returned to this thread for whatever reason, he/she never really received an answer as to how to go about getting LAW passed in New York State. What steps would he/she go about?

Her post, IMHO, did need clarification for the glaring error posted within re camps and schools in Canada being peanut free BY LAW, especially since the comment did come from a person that said they were Canadian.

Momma Bear, I also appreciate you taking the time to explain how yes, my lawyer may see Jesse's written school plan as not being a legally binding document but should the occasion arise whereby he took it to court with me, a judge (or jury or whatever) may decide otherwise. I appreciate that clarification. However, I do think it is important to note, when we do have individualized plans in Canada, that from a lawyer's points of view (one lawyer's) they are not considered legally binding and this may or may not be problematic when it comes to dealing with the school board.

Katiee, I suspect that you probably don't want to raise the question separately. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/frown.gif[/img] Please let me know because you know me, if I see what I consider a *good* question within a thread, I will raise it. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

I think I've probably said quite enough about what I feel the state of the board is in lately. I say it each time a thread ends up this way (and that seems to happen at least once or twice a week now - yes, definitely - it did happen earlier this week as well, in Off Topic of all places) and so I won't continue to go on about that, but just hope that somehow we can see some type of resolution to the situation soon. [img]http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/smile.gif[/img]

------------------

[This message has been edited by Cindy Spowart Cook (edited March 28, 2003).]